CMStPnP ... As for carrying all this extra water, I'm too pretty sure the onboard tanks can handle the supply, have my doubts they carry extra bottled water currently for Coffee or Tea, though it would be humorous to see them pour previously loaded bottled water into a coffee maker based on what we learned so far I would not be surprised if that was the practice. ...
As for carrying all this extra water, I'm too pretty sure the onboard tanks can handle the supply, have my doubts they carry extra bottled water currently for Coffee or Tea, though it would be humorous to see them pour previously loaded bottled water into a coffee maker based on what we learned so far I would not be surprised if that was the practice. ...
My presumption is that the water tanks in diners are sized for what they need, and any additional required volume for fountain drinks would have to be found. I would be happy to listen to someone who knows for sure which way it is.
RME .... Just as a note: he said the Coca-Cola guy would switch out the whole machine, or at the very least some diagnosed set of FRUs, and that should not take very long. If for some reason the train couldn't wait the few minutes for that, it seems pretty obvious that the repairman would have a co-driver who would take the service vehicle to the next scheduled stop and pick him up -- why should he need to sit around hours and hours waiting for uncertain return connections to whatever random burg he left an expensively provisioned service vehicle parked, when he could be doing other business (or going home) with only an additional driver's salary expense involved? I do not know whether there is a cost-effective level of preventive maintenance inspection, or remote monitoring, that would preclude most 'surprise' catastrophic failures in the first place. Certainly there is enough capability in the control bandwidth of the train's Internet connection to stream diagnostic ASCII messages with minimal latency, and I suspect enough repair personnel distributed across the United States to allow a reasonably rapid response time (again, to replace stuff rather than start tinkering with it in the cramped quarters of a train while passengers line up to watch the fun) possible. ....
....
Just as a note: he said the Coca-Cola guy would switch out the whole machine, or at the very least some diagnosed set of FRUs, and that should not take very long. If for some reason the train couldn't wait the few minutes for that, it seems pretty obvious that the repairman would have a co-driver who would take the service vehicle to the next scheduled stop and pick him up -- why should he need to sit around hours and hours waiting for uncertain return connections to whatever random burg he left an expensively provisioned service vehicle parked, when he could be doing other business (or going home) with only an additional driver's salary expense involved?
I do not know whether there is a cost-effective level of preventive maintenance inspection, or remote monitoring, that would preclude most 'surprise' catastrophic failures in the first place. Certainly there is enough capability in the control bandwidth of the train's Internet connection to stream diagnostic ASCII messages with minimal latency, and I suspect enough repair personnel distributed across the United States to allow a reasonably rapid response time (again, to replace stuff rather than start tinkering with it in the cramped quarters of a train while passengers line up to watch the fun) possible.
Or they could just have the local Coke distributor leave some cartons of canned Coke products at the next station.
schlimmSandwich shops and dining cars are apples and oranges.
Oh I know that but this is a discussion forum as well to discuss things like this. I'll throw in the towel because I think we are beating a dead horse here. It was an interesting discussion.
MidlandMikeMy presumption is that the water tanks in diners are sized for what they need, and any additional required volume for fountain drinks would have to be found. I would be happy to listen to someone who knows for sure which way it is.
See now that concept I would have trouble grasping because it implies that people drink Soda as an additional intake of fluids in all cases instead of a substitute for some other fluids. I would have a problem believing that as it also implies two digestive tracts, one for regular water and one for soda water.
CMStPnP schlimm Sandwich shops and dining cars are apples and oranges. Oh I know that but this is a discussion forum as well to discuss things like this. I'll throw in the towel because I think we are beating a dead horse here. It was an interesting discussion.
schlimm Sandwich shops and dining cars are apples and oranges.
This thread was about an Ed Ellis-style deluxe sleeper and dining car experience substituting for the standard Amtrak version on some LD trains. Your brief experience with a sandwich shop seems rather irrelevant, including soft drink delivery modes.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
CMStPnP MidlandMike My presumption is that the water tanks in diners are sized for what they need, and any additional required volume for fountain drinks would have to be found. I would be happy to listen to someone who knows for sure which way it is. See now that concept I would have trouble grasping because it implies that people drink Soda as an additional intake of fluids in all cases instead of a substitute for some other fluids. I would have a problem believing that as it also implies two digestive tracts, one for regular water and one for soda water.
MidlandMike My presumption is that the water tanks in diners are sized for what they need, and any additional required volume for fountain drinks would have to be found. I would be happy to listen to someone who knows for sure which way it is.
Think about that again. It isn't such a difficult propsition. [Hint: the soda is now in cans.]
schlimmThink about that again. It isn't such a difficult propsition. [Hint: the soda is now in cans.]
Damn man how big is your bladder? Mine is still the natural size and still inside the body version.
So your presumption is that a cup of soda, is taken in addition to a cup of water to quench ones thirst? Now I understand they bring bottled water on board in addition to soda but if all of it was consumed in addition to the water in the tanks thats a lot of fluids per person consumed.
You really don't get it? The tanks are sized for a variety of current needs, not including dispensing soda because it is in cans. So now you would have to carry more water tanks (for the machine) in addition. Of course you could eliminate the soda cans, but the machine likely takes up more space. The space in diners is very limited.
You want to substitute fountain soda for can soda. That is what you would need more water capacity for. Why would changing from fountain soda to cans have any thing to do with how much drinking water people would consume? I think Schlimm has also answered your reply.
As far as I know the LD trains with Superliners that are 2-3 days in travel length have their water tanks topped off enroute. I doubt you would expand the tanks, if anything you could add another water stop but with the given stops and the passengers a LD Superliner carries, I think they have plenty of water onboard.
Amtrak Standard Maintenance Procedure 47601 "Water Tank Flush" revised 12/20/2005 lists the following cars types with the following water system capacity:Superliner I diner 660 gallonsSuperliner I all other types 500 gallonsSuperliner II deluxe sleeper 600 gallonsSuperliner II all other types 500 gallons
MidlandMikeWhy would changing from fountain soda to cans have any thing to do with how much drinking water people would consume?
Using the same logic one could argue the blackwater tanks fill faster with soda cans onboard because the serving size is greater. It's kind of a dumb argument either way in my view. Because those tanks are serviced enroute as well.
Oops, one more thing on the Soda / Water topic. Amfleet has the Toilet system water supply seperate from the general water supply via tanks because Amfleet toilets use more water than a Superliner Toilet. Superliner Toilet uses very little water and is largely a vacuum flush. Hence most of the water on a Superliner Sleeper goes for showers, sinks and drinking. On a Superliner Diner, you'll note there are no showers, and I can't speak for the lower level but on the upper level no restrooms. Most of the water on a Superliner Diner is used for either the dishwasher or food prep..........I am sure there is some left over since it has the largest tank in the fleet and I am sure the dishwasher per load basis does not suck the water tank dry.
Superliner Lounge, I don't remember if there are bathrooms if any but I will point out that the upper level wet bar is now used just for storage on most runs. There is a sink in the lower snack bar I believe for the attendent to wash his hands and probably also some beverage prep. BTW, most health departments mandate a sink for handwashing in food serving areas. Not sure how Amtrak handles that but I am pretty confident they have to follow it.
Onto the interesting points, I read that Amfleet I currently does have problems running out of water for toilets on runs longer than an overnight trip and it is the reason the tank on a Amfleet II for toilet use is 150 gallons vs 60 gallons for Amfleet I. So that might be the reason Amtrak does not intermix Amfleet I or II with Superliners on the Western Routes. Seems via their design (horrible) they have a distance limitation for water servicing for toilets BUT they both have a much larger water tank for general use outside of toilets. Why the need for two seperate water tanks on Amfleet is anyones guess.
Viewliner Sleeper all I have for water tank is 400-500 gallons.
You would think there would be an Amtrak Standard on Water Tank size but then again, they can't seem to stick with the same passenger car specs or builder over time so it will probably be mix and match in the future as well.
Couple more points, I have been riding Amtrak since formation. The water bottles placed in the Superliner Sleepers was not done from their introduction it was added later. Also the bar on the upper lounge used to serve chips and drinks just like the lower bar does today, the only difference is the lower snack bar has a microwave and serves sandwiches as well. There is an upper sink an lower sink in the lounge car easily meeting the drain requirement. Likewise for handwashing there has to be a sink in both the upper level and lower level of the dining car as well.
As for there not being any room on board for soft drink dispenser, seriously? To me it sounds like Old Men being ornary than a real engineering judgement.
CMStPnPSeems via their design (horrible) they have a distance limitation for water servicing for toilets BUT they both have a much larger water tank for general use outside of toilets. Why the need for two seperate water tanks on Amfleet is anyones guess.
I woudl guess that it would allow them to use a non-potable water source for the toilets in a pinch.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
CMStP&P:
1. "On a Superliner Diner, you'll note there are no showers." Very perceptive. I'm sure most readers are shocked to read that.
2. Yes, Superliner diners have restroom facilities on the lower level for crew use only. They are off limits to passengers because access means passing through a food prep area. The chef can't be expected to hold it for the entire trip.
3. You say "...the dishwasher per load basis does not suck the water tank dry." I have been on many trips with three full dinner seatings (180 or more passenger dinners, plus additional for the crew) when meals have been served on china and the dishwasher ran out of water before all the dishes were finished. The unwashed dishes were manually rinsed and set aside, and the washing was completed in the morning after the midnight water stop.
4. Superliner Sightseer Lounges have restrooms on the lower level. There are some variations in appontments, but I think this is true of all of them. At least, it's true of the ones I've worked.
5. In general, Lounge car attendants have two sinks. One is for food prep, and the other is for hand washing. With your experience in food prep, this should be no surprise to you.
6. Do you suggest Amtrak should waste potable water by using it to flush toilets?
7. I don't understand the relevance of the remark about Amtrak not providing bottled water in the past, but doing so now. It's never been explained to me and I've never cared enough to ask. However, I surmise it's because of the widespread acceptance of bottled water by the general public in the past generation or so. Passengers want it, so Amtrak provides it. I guess you are suggesting this has something to do with the quality of Amtrak tap water, which is perfectly fine. It does vary in flavor, depending on the local water supply at refill points. The OP may think many years of drinking water from Amtrak oboard taps has affected my powers of reason, but that's his opinion (to which I guess he is entitled).
8. Just because a drain exists, does not mean it's located in the right place to serve a Coke machine which, for any of a number of reasons, might have to be located a considerable distance away. But I'm tired of talking about your dang Coke machines.
9. Why do I waste my time?
Tom
Hey AC, you aare not wasting your time because other readers find your comments perceptive and informative. I see no reason for soft-drink machines on trains that have crewed meal and beverage service of any type. In fact, in one public building that I frequent they are a real nuscence, since users place their used cups and bottles on the water fountain that I would otherwise use!
I used the SP automat car on the Coast Daylight prior to Amtrak once. The food and coffee were a lot better than the really poor stuff Penn Central was dishing out in its snack cars that had replaced diners, Empire Service and Chicago - Detroit, but any Amtrak cafe car was better, in my opinion.
I don't remember just which trip it was, bu oncet in the last two years I was unable to take a shower on #5 the morning after leaving Chicago because there was no water available. I was able to take a sower after we left Denver.
Johnny
I don't remember just which trip it was, but once in the last two years I was unable to take a shower on #5 the morning after leaving Chicago because there was no water available. I was able to take a shower after we left Denver.
ACY8. Just because a drain exists, does not mean it's located in the right place to serve a Coke machine which, for any of a number of reasons, might have to be located a considerable distance away. But I'm tired of talking about your dang Coke machines. 9. Why do I waste my time? Tom
ACY: You aren't wasting our time, but factual responses to CMStPnP's monologue about soft drink machines is probably wasting your own. I have no explanation for his fascination with those machines.
schlimmI have no explanation for his fascination with those machines.
Except that you and others keep asking me to explain different areas like a online Trivial Persuit game. Look I offered to cease the conversation twice but like the GodFather I keep getting sucked back in. So just give up on the conversation and it will go away. I fully understand that Amtrak won't get to the soda dispensers until if first addresses the must higher priority items that are driving it's costs higher than they should be.
ACY is retired from Amtrak nobody expects him to speak for them or explain items unless someone calls on him specifically. We should be able to speak freely about Amtrak or any other railroad topic on the forum within the limitations of the owner of the forum (Trains Magazine)........which of course excludes individual poster limitations to shutdown conversations they may not agree with or do not like.
Deggesty I don't remember just which trip it was, but once in the last two years I was unable to take a shower on #5 the morning after leaving Chicago because there was no water available. I was able to take a shower after we left Denver.
Well that could be explained in a few ways. Perhaps they didn't top off in Chicago, you had a shower queen on board, there could have been a slow leak in the tank.
Those sleepers may be just sitting around, but that service between New Oreleans and Chicago was discontinued for a reason - it did not make money, despite its premium cost tickets. So why would you expect a sleeper from Boston to Virginia to be profitable for someone other than AMTRAK to operate.
I have travelled tens of thousands of miles on Amtrak. I have seen potable water filled on every long distance trip. I have never seen black tanks serviced enroute. Are you sure about that one?
CMStPnP MidlandMike Why would changing from fountain soda to cans have any thing to do with how much drinking water people would consume? Using the same logic one could argue the blackwater tanks fill faster with soda cans onboard because the serving size is greater. It's kind of a dumb argument either way in my view. Because those tanks are serviced enroute as well.
MidlandMike Why would changing from fountain soda to cans have any thing to do with how much drinking water people would consume?
You seem to go into contortions to not answer a simple question. You imply the question is dumb, but yet you can't seem to answer it.
CMStPnP ... Most of the water on a Superliner Diner is used for either the dishwasher or food prep..........I am sure there is some left over since it has the largest tank in the fleet and I am sure the dishwasher per load basis does not suck the water tank dry. ...
... Most of the water on a Superliner Diner is used for either the dishwasher or food prep..........I am sure there is some left over since it has the largest tank in the fleet and I am sure the dishwasher per load basis does not suck the water tank dry.
...
Why would ATK put an extra large water tank on the diner if they did not need it all. No need to answer, since ACY has already witnessed that exact thing you doubted ("dishwasher per load basis does not suck the water tank dry") still emptied the tank on a diner he was working on.
MidlandMikeWhy would ATK put an extra large water tank on the diner if they did not need it all. No need to answer, since ACY has already witnessed that exact thing you doubted ("dishwasher per load basis does not suck the water tank dry") still emptied the tank on a diner he was working on.
Your absolutely right, I completely missed the fact the Auto Train was a Western LD train now and has the same level of patronage as other LD trains.........Sorry about that.
Excuse me, where did I say they did not need the water tank at all? I think I said expansion of them would not be an issue.
AMTRAKKER I have travelled tens of thousands of miles on Amtrak. I have seen potable water filled on every long distance trip. I have never seen black tanks serviced enroute. Are you sure about that one?
From now on all future questions, please use Google I am winding down the conversation to avoid hurt feelings. Everything I found I used Google. I should have asked people to use Google before but I had a hunch they would not. BTW, surprise I found which is kind of gross too. Lavatory sinks still drain to the tracks even with the retention tanks....oops. So it could very well be they are not the only drain to track routing and the retention tanks are just for raw sewage.
ACY
I have to write to a wider audience than you as you can tell from all the clarification posts and demands for follow-up. Different minds and thinking levels have to be attended to.
A big part of your issue is you read into what I write interpreting it all as written for you instead of a larger audience. You can ask for clarification. Point 7 for example was partly in response to the demand I provide information on where the extra water would come. Which I still think is a question asked without much thinking. I merely provided an example where Amtrak added Bottled Water to Sleeping Cars yet did not increase the size of the retention tanks which is a reverse of the we need to add capacity to the water tanks argument.
Point #6 general interest item has nothing to do with the topic.
Point 3, Your talking about the Auto-Train, I can surmise due to the # of passengers. How many passengers does that train carry per Dining Car? The whole we ran out of water before the water stop example is a good one for understanding BUT is that a show stopper? Lets say that happens with a soda dispenser on board, will there be an open insurrection or can the passengers wait a few hours until the tank is refilled (it ran out at or after Dinner right? You only waited until midnight). Now on most carriers if that happened once or twice, they would either increase the size of the water tank onboard or move the water stop to be closer. How much water did you have in Sanford when you arrived?
The point is really moot because I have been on trains that have run out of specific types of Soda. Not a huge deal, other flavors and other fluids available.
You also still have the bottled water right? Didn't you admit to using the bottled water to rinse the dishes? Even if you did not have bottled water on board you still have the chilled water in the tanks of the Coaches and Sleeping Cars. Add the water up on the Superliner Auto-Train consist it's a lot of water for the passengers being carried.
So the passengers will survive 4 hours without soda just like you survived 4 hours with out a dishwasher. There is still liquor and water on board just not on the Diner. And I'll bet the lounge car tanks still have water in them so not completely sure you would run out of soda completely just in the diner.
So can you relax a little here? #1 nobody asked you to respond. #2 nobody understands why your getting upset. #3 Don't interpret the entire post is written just for you.
So thats it from me on Coke dispenser talk from now on use Google everyone. Time to change the subject.
To all:
I was hoping I could stay out of this after my last comments, but I guess I have to apologize and make a correction since I misspoke. Amtrak passenger cars don't carry nonpotable water. I was mistaken in my comment about flushing the toilets with nonpotable water. Stanchions for nonpotable water are used for such things as locomotive radiators, although I was never involved in locomotive servicing so I can't give reliable information about that. It is absolutely forbidden to use a stanchion for a nonpotable water station to fill a potable tank, and I'm not sure that the nozzles would fit if you tried. So CMStPnP is correct about point 6.
CMSTPnP:
When you respond directly to what I have said, I take that as a comment directed to me because that's the way communication works in the English language. When you dismiss what I have said, I take that as a dismissal of the notion that my ideas might have some validity. It is not necessarily thin-skinned of me to interpret your words that way. Look at what you have said. Look at the logical comments that have been made in response to yours. Look at the self-important, all-knowing, superior and condescending attitude you display. Don't be so surprised that I find your comments offensive.
Moving the water stop closer means moving the crew change/service stop, which means installing expensive plumbing facilities for one train a day, at a location that Amtrak doesn't even own (CSX property). How much of your personal fortune do you plan to contribute, Mr Trump? Amtrak doesn't have that kind of spare cash lying around.
I did not admit to using bottled water to rinse dishes. I didn't think that much detail was required. If you must know, they were scraped and given a minimal rinse with residual water that still remained in the water lines leading from the tank to the sink, as opposed to the line running from the tank to the dishwasher. That water quickly ran out, but it was enough to get the worst of the residual food off the plates.
You say nobody understands why I get upset with you. Maybe it's because I get awfully tired of being cross examined every time I give an explanation. It's like trying to explain something to a 4-year old. No matter what I say or how thorough I try to make my explanation, the question keeps coming back: "Why?" I try to make my explanations understandable and fairly simple. I never realized you would want me to write a whole book to explain every last detail on every question. You say nobody asked me to respond. Well, I have something to ask of you: If you don't want responses from those who know, why do you ask the questions??????? And why do you always assume that somebody else's solutions must necessarily be inferior to your own, especially when you admit that you have never worked on the equipment?
(Seriously edited & expanded)
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