Just a crazy thought,
Why not run a diner on the Silver Star(the train that had the diner discontinued by congress)?
Probably wouldn't work.
Would be a gpod experiment
I get the impression that diners are a loss leader, and that you would also need the sleeper fares to make money.
MidlandMike I get the impression that diners are a loss leader, and that you would also need the sleeper fares to make money.
Only until someone realize that you can charge market prices for decent food, just like in a regular food establishment...once people(aka passengers) realize there's decent food on the train at normal prices they'll stop bringing their own on board and more will purchase the on board food. As far as sleeper accomodations go, the current pricing isn't has highly subsidized as some would like to believe...you're additional cost is what vs a coach; both have attendants(or should, in the coaches case...yes, it should be one attendant per coach). Personally, and from what I've heard they don't make as much as we like to think they make, though it's not poverty level either, it's not living like a king wage either(that's just salary, the benefits are the killer, and RR retirement).
Everythin I read says you can't brake even charging normal prices in a rail diner. The have more expences than stationary restaurants. There is the expense and maintainence of the railcar, commissary, crew travel expense, etc.
GERALD L MCFARLANE JR MidlandMike I get the impression that diners are a loss leader, and that you would also need the sleeper fares to make money. Only until someone realize that you can charge market prices for decent food, just like in a regular food establishment...once people(aka passengers) realize there's decent food on the train at normal prices they'll stop bringing their own on board and more will purchase the on board food. As far as sleeper accomodations go, the current pricing isn't has highly subsidized as some would like to believe...you're additional cost is what vs a coach; both have attendants(or should, in the coaches case...yes, it should be one attendant per coach). Personally, and from what I've heard they don't make as much as we like to think they make, though it's not poverty level either, it's not living like a king wage either(that's just salary, the benefits are the killer, and RR retirement).
Dining cars are not even true loss leaders, since all LD trains lose money, with the exception of the Auto-Train. With loss leaders, the loss is tolerated to attract customers in an overall profitable venture or for a limited period of time in a new or revamped venture. LD train have lost a lot of money throughout its 46 year history. Dining cars lost money prior to Amtrak as well.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
To make it pay: Charge the real costs plus a profit, with reservations in advance for a complete meal service for the entire trip. Possibly $200.00. But make it worth it. Food and service and decore entirely comoperable to the Torquise Room on the Super Chief.
Cut losses by the menue given at the time of the reservation, and the food furnished and prepared exactly as the customer desires.
No refunds for no-shows. If there are no-shows, then the specific meals can be sold for reduced cost on the train for those without reservations.
Would begin with one car each way per week, timed for the heaviest days of travel.
What can be prepared in advance and kept heated or cooled on board without loosing quality would be so prepared. But some on-board cooking and preparation would be essential for the quality approach.
daveklepperTo make it pay: Charge the real costs plus a profit, with reservations in advance for a complete meal service for the entire trip. Possibly $200.00. But make it worth it. Food and service and decore entirely comoperable to the Torquise Room on the Super Chief.
On the Southwest Chief, that would be 2 dinners, 1 lunch and 2 breakfasts + two nights room accomodation all with deluxe service and decor for $200? A Superliner roomette is $523 while a bedroom charges $1314, while the coach seat is $138.
^^^ Yes, completely missing from Amtrak. You can significantly reduce the dining car losses and food waste if you manage the asset intelligently with a General Manager at the Commissary that knows how a train should be stocked from experience being an on board Chef. I agree with most of what Dave says though I would tweak a few areas. Intelligent management of the menu is the difference between a huge loss and a much smaller loss.
For example, having the same hamburger for sale on the Dining Car menu for $10 more than you charge in the snack or Cafe car is just pure stupidity. Lets look at Ham, baked Ham on Thursday night. Leftover Ham is ground up to make ham salad sandwiches the next day and/or placed in split pea with ham soup. You can also strip or cube the ham and place it in a chef's salad along with turkey. The concept is to reuse the leftovers in follow-on reciepes as Ham does not spoil overnight and lasts a few days after being cooked. So does turkey. Reusing in such a mannger reduces waste and utilizes storage space better on board.
For Soda.........why the hell Amtrak is carrying cans of soda everywhere instead of syrup is beyond me. The canned soda is heavier and requires more handling and is not as easy to store as the syrup is. Amtrak is also paying for the much increased price of packaging of the soda (Aluminum Can) greatly reducing the profit on the sale of a soft drink. All around idiotic. Price it out folks a box of syrup costs $15-20, creating at least 750-850 drinks. How many cans of Soda does that amount too?, then you have to lug the Aluminum Cans off the train and dispose of them. If you are cycling the dining car from train to train you can leave the boxes of syrup on the train and connected to the dispenser.
Definety start selling alcholic beverages and have a bar tender on board whose sales will more than pay for his position. Another case study in stupidity, Amtrak dumped the bar steward position and went with mini mix it yourself bottles of hard liquor. Again significantly reducing liquor margins as well as significantly reducing the ordering of mixed drinks (a lot of folks do not know how to mix their own). Would definitely take the rolling hotel approach with liquor and buy the full size bottles, and place someone besides the bartender in charge of inventory and resupply.
Buy raw potatoes and bake them on board or use a French Fry slicer to make Fries and then freeze the leftover raw fries for the next meal if not used in the current service. Nobody can tell the difference between a fresh fry and frozen fry that has been deep fried unless you keep the frozen fry in the freezer for a long time. French Fries, yes it is quicker to deep fry them but you can also bake them if there is no room for a deep fryer and in fact I would not put a deep fryer in a rolling dining car because of the hot oil danger and the need to always change the oil (which is a pain), bake the french fries and bake the fried chicken. If you do it the right way, comes out similar enough to fried.
Ask ACY. Lots of problems in your plan.
schlimmOn the Southwest Chief, that would be 2 dinners, 1 lunch and 2 breakfasts + two nights room accomodation all with deluxe service and decor for $200? A Superliner roomette is $523 while a bedroom charges $1314, while the coach seat is $138.
$3000 for a Bedroom, $1500 for a roomette. Raise the coach seat to $350 each way.
schlimmAsk ACY. Lots of problems in your plan. Add
I am sure there are from an Amtrak perspective but I thought we were talking about replacing Amtrak with a privately run diner.
CMStPnPFor Soda.........why the hell Amtrak is carrying cans of soda everywhere instead of syrup is beyond me. The canned soda is heavier and requires more handling and is not as easy to store as the syrup is.
Yes, but even McDonalds has had issues with sanitation of the dispenser heads, they need to be cleaned per strict rules. Also, you need CO2 tanks and carbonators to supply the water. I doubt that Ed Ellis uses syrup on his cars.
I have read only a few of the most recent posts in this thread, and have not seen the video. It's almost an hour long, and I was assuming it wouldn't be of much interest to me. The idea that a new non Amtrak startup would be a COST-EFFECTIVE success doesn't seem likely, and the argument is tiresome to me. It's not tiresome to CMStPnP. I've been avoiding this conversation because we've plowed this ground before. In the past, not much that I've said has ever had a whole lot of impact on CMStPnP's thinking, so I'm not so confident that it will be any different this time 'round. But my name was brought up, and I guess there is some sentiment saying I ought to chime in. So I'll catch up some time soon and see the video.
For those who don't know, I retired from Amtrak onboard service a little over two years ago with a little over 26 years of service, in sleeping car and coach service, as well as food service (which is always implied, no matter what onboard service job you're doing). I understand CMStPnP has experience in some sort of stationary food service outlet.
I've read his comments about the need for soda machines instead of cans. Of all the serious problems Amtrak faces with regard to food service, it is utterly ridiculous to suggest that this will help; and it is utterly ridiculous to suggest that a new non Amtrak startup would benefit any more. A soda machine requires maintenance and cleaning. It represents a significant investment and is subject to enroute mechanical failures, which might not be repairable until servicing at the next terminal. It requires occasional replenishment with syrup and soda water, which must be stored in cars with limited storage space. It requires a floor drain, so it can't be installed just anywhere in a railroad car. It requires frequent cleaning to FDA standards, which isn't always easy to accomplish enroute. On the other hand, canned soda requires nothing but refrigeration, which the cars already have anyway. In fact, canned sodas can be provided without refrigeration if the refrigerators fail enroute (not unheard of), although the customer would probably want ice.
If you want french fries on a moving train, then YOU can be the guy who has to work next to a deep well of scalding hot oil on a moving train. I'm not going to do it, and I don't know any modern Amtrak chef who is that stupid. Yes, deep frying was done in the past. No, it was never a good idea. They used to use Presto Logs, too.
Less than three years ago, chefs on my train were baking raw potatoes to accompany made to order steaks, just as you suggest. They plated them and sent them to me to serve to passengers. Our chefs are talented, skilled, and proud of their work, and it was a rare occasion when the passenger sent such a meal back because he was unhappy with it. When it did happen, it was usually because of a misunderstanding of the difference between medium rare and rare, or some such issue. It can be done, so you're not saying snything new about that. The bean counters said it cost too much, so the steaks and baked potatoes are gone from my train. You can have your baked potatoes if you want to spend the money. I don't see why you think you're saying anything special or new.
I get awfully tired of CMStPnP's ideas that his experience in stationary food service can translate into the onboard, enroute realities of food service on a moving train in interstate service, subject to the regulation of FDA. These factors will be there whether the operator is Amtrak or somebody else, so don't give me those tired old arguments about how hopelessly terrible Amtrak is. That's never been true, and solutions just aren't that simple.
Tom
(First paragraph edited for emphasis; conclusion also amplified)
CMStPnP schlimm On the Southwest Chief, that would be 2 dinners, 1 lunch and 2 breakfasts + two nights room accomodation all with deluxe service and decor for $200? A Superliner roomette is $523 while a bedroom charges $1314, while the coach seat is $138. $3000 for a Bedroom, $1500 for a roomette. Raise the coach seat to $350 each way.
schlimm On the Southwest Chief, that would be 2 dinners, 1 lunch and 2 breakfasts + two nights room accomodation all with deluxe service and decor for $200? A Superliner roomette is $523 while a bedroom charges $1314, while the coach seat is $138.
And you think there is anything beyond a small, niche market for trains charging that?
Passenger trains shouldn't have to make money today. They rarely did back in the day, before cars, buses and planes.
Those cars, buses and planes don't make money, either. We indulge and spend lots and lots of taxpayer dollars on them because people want and use them.
Should be no problem with passenger trains -- suburban, corridor and LD -- as long as they are well patronized. What if we applied profit as the survival test of METRA, the Sounders, the Corridor?
ACY. It requires occasional replenishment with syrup and soda water, which must be stored in cars with limited storage space. It requires a floor drain
It only requires regular water to which syrup is added, the carbonation comes out of a pressurized tank, all three are combined at the dispenser. Combined the syrup and pressurized tank would cut on board storage requirements vs canned soda by at least 2/3 if not more.
Further, I always get luke warm soda can on Amtrak with a cup of Ice. Sometimes the snack bar refrigerates but not a lot a large reserve so back to Luke Warm when they run out of the refrigerated stuff. Maybe it is the Texas Eagle route vs. Auto-Train.
schlimmAnd you think there is anything beyond a small, niche market for trains charging that?
How the hell would I know? I am just throwing it out there because you were complaining the price was too low and DaveKeeper was adding services and car refurbishment at a highly unfunded rate.
ACYI get awfully tired of CMStPnP's ideas that his experience in stationary food service can translate into the onboard, enroute realities of food service on a moving train in interstate service, subject to the regulation of FDA. These factors will be there whether the operator is Amtrak or somebody else, so don't give me those tired old arguments about how hopelessly terrible Amtrak is. That's never been true, and solutions just aren't that simple.
See and now your upset again and why? Because you listened to Schlimm and he wanted you to comment.......so blame him.
The thread is on Privately run passenger trains and we delved into the hypothetical privately run operation. Sorry but Mr. Ellis a former Amtrak VP disagrees with you on several points regarding onboard services if you watched his video. And now he is competing with your former employer for corridor services, so that should give you pause. That does not necessarily make him wrong but of a different opinion.
Likewise I am pretty confident we will see Brightline clean the floor with Amtrak's onboard food service theories when it rolls out it's Bistro Car to the public. Definitely a diifference between private and public sector thinking. It's the difference between the thinking of "we have to make a profit" and "we will never make a profit so why bother". We'll see but I fully expect Amtrak is going to be surprised in more than one area with Brightline when it comes to corridor services.
dakotafredThose cars, buses and planes don't make money, either.
In the case of airlines, you are spouting utter nonsense:
schlimmIn the case of airlines, you are spouting utter nonsense: American Airlines. Second quarter 2016 pre-tax profit of $1.5 billion, or $1.6 billion excluding special charges, and net profit of$950 million, or $1.0 billion excluding special charges Excluding special items, UAL reported second-quarter net income of $863 million, and pre-tax earnings of $1.4 billion. Delta Air Lines Announces June Quarter Profit June 2016 quarter GAAP pre-tax income of $2.4 billion, adjusted pre-tax income1 of $1.7 billion
Your both actually right. I would point out that Airline profitability is a function of the price of oil all other things on the side. Further the profits your pointing to do not include the absolute full costs of delivering the service. Airlines are subsidized in part by the DoD (troop fleet), Congress (flights to underserved airports), as well as Airport bonding and never having to pay taxes on terminals, there is more. Just add up the direct airline subsidies and you exceed annually the subsidy to Amtrak.
Remember that if you argue that airlines pay the full cost of their terminals, a claim I find really a stretch. They still get a huge subsidy on bonding for airport construction in that the much, much lower interest rate and higher credit of the local taxing authority is used instead of the much higher and much lower credit of the airline to build the terminal.
CMStPnP schlimm And you think there is anything beyond a small, niche market for trains charging that? How the hell would I know? I am just throwing it out there because you were complaining the price was too low and DaveKeeper was adding services and car refurbishment at a highly unfunded rate.
schlimm And you think there is anything beyond a small, niche market for trains charging that?
The problem with some posters here is they want a cordon bleu dining experience on Amtrak at sandwich shop prices. I mentioned ACY because he knows what he is talking about from first-hand experience. I do not nor do you (about onboard food service).
Amtrak undercharges (below the operating cost) for both sleepers and food service on its LD trains except for ACY's Auto Train. As to Ellis, his little Pullman experiment tacked onto the City of New Orleans was a failure, so his expertise seems of dubious value.
schlimmThe problem with some posters here is they want a cordon bleu dining experince on Amtrak at sandwich shop prices. I mentioned ACY because he knows what he is talking about from first-hand experience. I do not nor do you (about onboard food service). Amtrak undercharges (below the operating cost) for both sleepers and food service on its LD trains except for ACY's Auto Train. As to Ellis, his little Pullman experiment tacked onto the City of New Orleans was a failure, so his expertise seems of dubious value.
All that might be correct BUT if ACY was 100% correct, his former employer would not be facing increasing competition on corridor services.......would it? I mean if everyone was following the Amtrak model on corridor services what would be the point of these new companies being formed?
As to long distance trains, nobody has Amtraks power or authority yet to run them, once that playing field is level. We'll see if there are no entrants to the field to compete with Amtrak. The Pullman experiment was interesting and given the former American Orient Express I kind of had a hunch it might fail.
However, Ellis was stuck on the Amtrak Schedule and stops #1 because he choose the tack on approach. #2 Ellis really did not capitally invest in those cars a whole lot beyond the paint scheme. He basically bought private cars from AAPRCO stock and marginally invested in them. #3 Although he charged more for his service, he did not have add-ons that we see with Rocky Mountaineer such as extended city stays, hotel deals, carry the luggage from the train to hotel service. So his onboard services were basically Amtrak levels, his schedule was basically Amtrak, to which he was adding a premium to ride in a private car.
CMStPnPAirlines are subsidized in part by the DoD (troop fleet), Congress (flights to underserved airports)
And how much is all that? $50-100 million? Airlines also pay some federal income taxes and local property taxes (not airports), unlike Amtrak which pays zero.
How much are the airlines paying for the Air Traffic Control System?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
CMStPnP:
Now you're accusing me of being upset with you. I'm not particularly, because I'm confident that there's not much to your arguments. You have completely ignored my reasons for believing cans are more sensible on a train than cumbersome, labor intensive, maintenance-needing machines that must be refilled, cleaned, serviced, and provided with electric power and floor drains. You also admit it requires a pressurized tank. Just one more potential problem in the event of a derailment, if you ask me. You and I aren't likely to find common ground because you have consistently refused to address the practical issues in the past, and you're doing it again.
I've been told by others, through implication if not directly, that I wouldn't have spent a career in passenger service if I had the intelligence and ability to do something else. Maybe you don't believe me because that's what you think. Well, I can't be responsible for your unwillingness to accept the shocking notion that I might have a brain. You're determined not to believe I have anything valuable to contribute, so how about you just stop reading posts when you see they're from me?
You say I'm upset with you. On the contrary, I think you're upset with me and the notion that I might actually have a clue about the realities of working on the train, where I believe you have admitted you never did.
ACYYou have completely ignored my reasons for believing cans are more sensible on a train than cumbersome, labor intensive, maintenance-needing machines that must be refilled, cleaned, serviced, and provided with electric power and floor drains
Electric Power is not needed either unless you have a huge display sign. The pressure from the carbon dixiode sucks the syrup out. Water pressure from a regular water line is enough to move the water. It's still just the syrup and the Carbon Dixode...heh.
The water drain is already in place in the upper level of the Superliner Lounge and I am pretty sure there is a carbonated beverage dispenser in place as well but I will double check on my Christmas trip home with the crews help if they have time.
BaltACD How much are the airlines paying for the Air Traffic Control System?
Our GOP friends want to privatize it. Happy?
schlimmAnd how much is all that? $50-100 million? Airlines also pay some federal income taxes and local property taxes (not airports), unlike Amtrak which pays zero.
I'm not going to spend a lot of time looking it up but I have figures for 2005, it is a payment in kind program. Government guarantees business in revenue in exchange for members having their fleet available on 24-48 hours notice.
In 2005 the guaranteed portion was $418 million across the Airline Industry but they actually paid out $1.5 Billion above that amount. So total in 2005 was $1.9 Billion approx just for the Military Civil Airline Fleet Allocation. Interesting Amtrak has no such arrangement with DoD or FEMA even though FEMA has used Amtrak for evacuations.
Essential Air Service Subsidy for 2014 = $241 million however it was on a upward trend year over year so for 2016 it is probably higher.
Property taxes for railroads are exceedingly complex. Though my argument would be that as a tenant Amtrak should be paying a portion of the Property Taxes of the Host Railroad........look at the complex tax analysis that BNSF did for New Mexico on the Raton Pass line........Hoooollllllyyyyyy Crap!!! Who thought up the NM taxation approach??? (lol). Unbelieveable.
https://www.codot.gov/about/southwest-chief-commission/nmdot-bnsf-property-tax-analysis
schlimm dakotafred Those cars, buses and planes don't make money, either. In the case of airlines, you are spouting utter nonsense: American Airlines. Second quarter 2016 pre-tax profit of $1.5 billion, or $1.6 billion excluding special charges, and net profit of$950 million, or $1.0 billion excluding special charges Excluding special items, UAL reported second-quarter net income of $863 million, and pre-tax earnings of $1.4 billion. Delta Air Lines Announces June Quarter Profit June 2016 quarter GAAP pre-tax income of $2.4 billion, adjusted pre-tax income1 of $1.7 billion
dakotafred Those cars, buses and planes don't make money, either.
For now -- with a lot of input from the taxpayer. The real story is told by the lousy stock prices; by the many trips to bankruptcy court and the folded lines; and by somebody's finding that, from the beginnings of commercial flight, the industry hasn't made a red cent, even with the ongoing public help.
The point is that the railroads' discovery of generations ago holds true for every transportation mode: You can't make money hauling people. Not without a lot of that public support.
I continue to argue the case for equal treatment for passenger rail that meets a public purpose and is well patronized.
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