https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0IDaDodY9w
Thanks. Too bad the audio quality isn't better. Good for some of the closest questioners, very poor for one woman, mediocre for Ed. Much better would have been a direct feed from the sound system, rather than an in-audience pickup, probably via cell-phone tablet.
He comes across as rather sarcastic at times and I think it has to do with frustrations of dealing with the government which as a former small business person I could understand completely. Lets see Building Occupation Inspection, Fire Safety Inspection, Department of Health Inspection, Oy the insanity on why they cannot be combined into one.
Here's a wild idea. Have Amtrak continue running the legacy LD trains (OK, kill the Cardinal), coaches + buffet only, but let Ed Ellis' company provide and manage the first class sleeper and dining car service on the back cars.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Why would Ed Ellis want to take over money losing dining cars and sleepers? Regularly scheduled passenger operations are a Little different then his Pullman co and not like his Hoosier train which he isn't operating for a profit. He paid to run the train. The state of Indiana picks up the losses.
How would the existing labor contracts be delt with. Are Ed excursion trains a union shop? Just wondering. Who would handle maintenance long term and on a daily basis. Where would Ed get the capital to purchase a large number of expensive passenger cars?
A neat idea but their a underlying reasons why the original Pullman company and privately operated railroads passenger trains were discontinued. They were labor intensive, required huge amounts of capital and lost money regardless how the accounting was done.
ROBERT WILLISON Why would Ed Ellis want to take over money losing dining cars and sleepers? Regularly scheduled passenger operations are a Little different then his Pullman co and not like his Hoosier train which he isn't operating for a profit. He paid to run the train. The state of Indiana picks up the losses. How would the existing labor contracts be delt with. Are Ed excursion trains a union shop? Just wondering. Who would handle maintenance long term and on a daily basis. Where would Ed get the capital to purchase a large number of expensive passenger cars? A neat idea but their a underlying reasons why the original Pullman company and privately operated railroads passenger trains were discontinued. They were labor intensive, required huge amounts of capital and lost money regardless how the accounting was done.
Run the 3-4 Pullman cars tacked on the end of LD trains for a small fee paid to Ellis to operate the same way he does the Hoosier State (non-union, I think). He could charge what he wants for tickets and meals. Acquisition and maybe maintenance would remain with Amtrak. I think it would be less of a loss for Amtrak and the nostalgia buffs could have their paradise, but at market prices.
The details could be worked out. The purpose is to opt Amtrak out of the hugely expensive, subsidized pullman business on LD trains but to keep them running as transportation with far less expense. Those who want deluxe sleepers can pay. Handicapped folks can get reduced fare, if eligible.
You suggesting running like Budd equipment, not Amtrak super and view liners
ROBERT WILLISON You suggesting running like Budd equipment, not Amtrak super and view liners
No. Where did I say that? I am suggesting using whatever is available.
Your right, you never said it. So your suggesting a new operator buy or lease existing equipment. Pay prevailing labor rates. Pay Amtrak maintenance, inspection costs and any related charges. Station costs and a haulage fee?
ROBERT WILLISON Your right, you never said it. So your suggesting a new operator buy or lease existing equipment. Pay prevailing labor rates. Pay Amtrak maintenance, inspection costs and any related charges. Station costs and a haulage fee?
Never said any of the above. It is very difficult to discuss ideas with someone who fabricates another's statements. I suggest you re-read my posts on this and offer your own ideas.
Hard to have s discussion without discussing.
ROBERT WILLISON Hard to have s discussion without discussing.
"Run the 3-4 sleeper/pullman cars tacked on the end of LD trains for a small fee paid to Ellis to operate the same way he does the Hoosier State (non-union, I think). He could charge what he wants for tickets and meals. Acquisition and maybe maintenance would remain with Amtrak. I think it would be less of a loss for Amtrak and the nostalgia buffs could have their paradise, but at market prices.
The details could be worked out. The purpose is to opt Amtrak out of the hugely expensive, subsidized pullman business on LD trains but to keep them running as transportation with far less expense. Those who want deluxe sleepers can pay. Handicapped folks can get reduced fare, if eligible."
The cars would be whatever is available - Superliners and Viewliners. Ellis would be paid a small fee to operate plus he would be responsible for setting fares and paying his staff and would keep any profits.
I hope ED Ellis gets this suggestion: He should tack a sleeper or a sleeper with a buffet lounge with meal possibilities, on the back of the overnight Boston - Newport News train. This train does not have sleeper service at present, althougj it does have Business Class. There should be a market for overnight Boston and Providence - Baltimore and Washington and Richmond business travel. There should be a market for Boston and Providence - Williamsburg tourist travel. Travel to the Norfolk area would be supplentary, and 1st Class Washington - Williamsburg and Newport News would be an addition, with daytime service. I thihnk the market is there and the present train without really 1st Class service does not serve it.
Ed Ellis is paying Amtrak to provide the operating crew (Engineer and Conductor) similar to Via Rail. He provides the onboard passenger personel (which I suspect are not union). If you listened to his talk, you heard him say that the Amtrak provided crew people are friendly and good ambasadors for the train. I don't know whether there was any selection on his part but he's very satisfied with them. Amtrak has problems motivating some of their on board crew and keeping them from taking their discontent out on the passengers. It can be a thankless job. Long hours and too much nit picking sometimes can be stressful. Most Amtrak trips I have taken have had good crews but I have run into some bad situations. There was a crew chief on the now discontinued Chicago to Portland via Denver (connecting to the CZ) train that had a feud with a car attendent and it got nasty. I gave the car attendent my name if she needed a witness for what transpired. Makes the think of some politically incorrect statements which I will suppress here. Crew chief had the power and she was throwing her weight around. Bad vibes for the passengers.
The overnight Boston - Newport News sleeper can be test for the Ed Ellis - Amtrak relationship. If it works out well for both, then one by one, he can take over 1st-class sleeper service on long distance trains that already have sleeper service.
schlimm ROBERT WILLISON Hard to have s discussion without discussing. "Run the 3-4 sleeper/pullman cars tacked on the end of LD trains for a small fee paid to Ellis to operate the same way he does the Hoosier State (non-union, I think). He could charge what he wants for tickets and meals. Acquisition and maybe maintenance would remain with Amtrak. I think it would be less of a loss for Amtrak and the nostalgia buffs could have their paradise, but at market prices. The details could be worked out. The purpose is to opt Amtrak out of the hugely expensive, subsidized pullman business on LD trains but to keep them running as transportation with far less expense. Those who want deluxe sleepers can pay. Handicapped folks can get reduced fare, if eligible." The cars would be whatever is available - Superliners and Viewliners. Ellis would be paid a small fee to operate plus he would be responsible for setting fares and paying his staff and would keep any profits.
Illinois Railway Museum has a LOT of surplus sleepers lined up in their restoration line........I don't think there is a shortage of the old Budd and Pullman Sleepers in this country. Even appear on Ozark Mountain Rail equipment sales quite a bit.........there are a few sleepers there for sale now. You can even modify a sleeper and add kitchen or lounge space to it.
Note Ed has the sleepers just sittting around since the end of C-NO service. At Boston maintenance service is available from either Amtrak or the MBTA. Emergencies at Washington, should they ever occur, gives the choice of Amtrak, MARC, or Virginia Express. Still, if one car is scheduled each way, two protection cars probably should be provided, one in Boston and one in Washington.
Electroliner 1935If you listened to his talk, you heard him say that the Amtrak provided crew people are friendly and good ambasadors for the train. I don't know whether there was any selection on his part but he's very satisfied with them.
I think the train being up for bid by State of Indiana and Amtrak's rather shaky status has a lot to do with Amtrak employee motivation to keep passengers happy and attract more. They know if the train goes away, it's either they get sent to another one that travels longer than a few hours or potentially the unemployment line.
If the Pullman Rail Journeys Chicago-New Orleans operation did not draw enough passengers, what would make a Newport News-Boston line any better?
CSSHEGEWISCH If the Pullman Rail Journeys Chicago-New Orleans operation did not draw enough passengers, what would make a Newport News-Boston line any better?
It might not work, true. However, there are differences with the CNO failed experiment.
1. The Boston Newport News train seems like a sure loser for sleepers.
2. AFAIK, the CNO trial had Ellis' sleepers tacked behind regular Amtrak sleepers, so in competition. I am suggesting Ellis operate the only sleepers on an LD train, preferably in the West, under contract with Amtrak. Perhaps less luxurious than in the CNO trial?
Minor problem. If Ellis ran his own sleepers behind a Superliner consist, he would also have to provide his own dining car and lounge equipment, adding to his expense with not much more income.
Instead of BOS - Newport news sleeper run the sleeper BOS - WASH then attach it onto the end of of the Meteor to MIA. Unfortunately northbound poses many problems.
Now if Palmetto is ever extended to MIA but fat chance.
1. The Boston - Washington market exists. Does not currently have a sleeper. It can be a business market, including Providence - Baltimore, because the times are reasonable and do not interfere with the business day. Acela is competition but takes time from the business day, especially the going part, less the evening return, the comjpetition is also first class air plus expensive hotel.
2. The train runs through to Newport News Colonial Williamsburg is a marketable tourist attraction and educational experience, extremely worthwhile and a relatively unknown in the Boston market, a market that vaules histiory more than most other USA communities. So weekend non-business travel is a possibility. A clever travel agency can do a job on marketing this service, Raymond and Wittcome come to mind. Day travel between Baltimore and Washington and Williamsburg and Newport News can fill some of the seating available when sleeping accomodations vacated at Baltimore and Washington are converted for daytime use.
3. Going to Miami takes extra equipment and competes with existing Amtrak sleepers. Also switching charges at Washington. The Silver Meteor is still a very decent train with good dining and loujge accomodatons and would give competition. Would not draw additional overnight business travel.
The real market are those prefer rail but find Acela cuts into the business day. In addition to the round-trip business, both ways, there are thsoe that would go via Ellis-Pullman and return via Acela. Most of these would fly if Acela were the only premium service.
1957-1967 I worked in the Bolt Beranek and Newman Cambridge, MA office. Every other professional consultant flew to distant jobs, in general, while I tried to use train service whenever possible and practical, often flying to a jobsite and returning by rail and countine the rail time as office time because I could do the needed calculations and design and write the report without interfering phonecalls and requests for help by my fellow consultants.
But Washinton and Baltimore were exeotions for most of my fellow consultants. Service on the overnight Federal was decent enough for them to enjoy an evening at home with family before boarding at South Station at 10pm or Back Bay five minutes later, with parking available, or at Route 128. Some would fly back home, others had friends and/or relatives to visit in Washington before boarding the Federal. None traveled coach, all that is avilable today, and would fly if the sleeperes were sold out.
If anything, flyers are worse off today. Then the Eastern Shuttle was a walk-on operation, and for a whle Northeast also offered this kind of service. No airport security checks.
Back in the late 80's or early 90's, I was taking one of my All Aboard America mileage trips where I went from Chicago to Baltimore on the Cardinal, then I was to take the overnight sleeper to NYC ( Amtrak ran two cars, one to BOS & one to NYC which was parked until 7:30 AM and a similar operation Southbound) Then I was going to take the train (Maple Leaf) to Toronto and Via Rail to Halifax and continue. Had all my tickets and went to the Baltimore station and the train arrived about 11:40 and only had one (BOS) sleeper. Conductor claimed I should have been notified. He allowed me and I chose to ride through to New Haven and return back to NYC on an early Metroliner (which I had to pay for) that got to NYC in time make the connection to Toronto. I did not desire to stay in Penn Sta from 2 AM until 7:30 AM. Rest of trip went as planned. Did get a voucher for the unused sleeper cost. Never did get any expanation why the sleeper had been annulled and I hadn't been notified.
Electroliner 1935 Back in the late 80's or early 90's, I was taking one of my All Aboard America mileage trips where I went from Chicago to Baltimore on the Cardinal, then I was to take the overnight sleeper to NYC ( Amtrak ran two cars, one to BOS & one to NYC which was parked until 7:30 AM and a similar operation Southbound) Then I was going to take the train (Maple Leaf) to Toronto and Via Rail to Halifax and continue. Had all my tickets and went to the Baltimore station and the train arrived about 11:40 and only had one (BOS) sleeper. Conductor claimed I should have been notified. He allowed me and I chose to ride through to New Haven and return back to NYC on an early Metroliner (which I had to pay for) that got to NYC in time make the connection to Toronto. I did not desire to stay in Penn Sta from 2 AM until 7:30 AM. Rest of trip went as planned. Did get a voucher for the unused sleeper cost. Never did get any expanation why the sleeper had been annulled and I hadn't been notified.
Johnny
CSSHEGEWISCH Minor problem. If Ellis ran his own sleepers behind a Superliner consist, he would also have to provide his own dining car and lounge equipment, adding to his expense with not much more income.
One last time. The Ellis group (or some other three-year contracted operator) would operate the sleepers and one dining car using Amtrak equipment tacked on the end of the Amtrak-operated, coaches + bistro car (fast food) front part of LD trains. Ellis would get a declining fee to operate. He would use his staff and pay them. He would set his standards and sleeper surcharges (tickets) along with food menus and prices. He would keep the profits, if any. After three years, re-evaluate. If people won't pay what it really costs, then d/c the sleeper services on a route by route basis.
My guess is few people on here who demand 1950s nostalgia LD trains are willing to pay 2017 prices. Heavily government-subsidized deluxe train services free marketers and Libertarians here should oppose on principle.
schlimmOne last time.
You should be used to repeating yourself by now. Just like practicing the phrase "President Trump" in front of the mirror each night.....heh-heh.
CMStPnPYou should be used to repeating yourself by now. Just like practicing the phrase "President Trump" in front of the mirror each night.....heh-heh.Big Smile
Perfect for those trying to lose weight through vomiting.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Basically, I agree with the above. But I think the Boston - Newport News train would be an excellent first test of the concept. And since Amtrak cannot spare a sleeper to start the service, Ed should provide three of his own.
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