Let's have a rational national transportation policy, with each mode encouraged for the niche it works best: airlines for longer distances and isolated communities; fast rail in ~500 mile corridors connecting major metro areas, along with a few LD routes; buses connecting the grid by feeding into rail and air.
You refuse to look at facts. Airlines have cycles dependent on the economy and fuel prices. So do railroads. Airlines have had bankruptcies and reorganizations. So have the rqils, many, many times. Some airlines went out of business. So have railroads. Airlines are profitable currently. So are the rails. So are Acela and the Auto-Train on Amtrak.
Amtrak does not need to be profitable, but it could be largely self-sufficient (aside from infrastructure) if we let it do what can do best (and the "free" market confirms this). This is especially important because running many trains at huge operating losses makes it vulnerable to GOP congresses that are largely anti-passenger rail.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I don't know whether anybody has ever said it before, but I'll say it here:
"The mere fact that the other person has stopped talking does not mean you have won the argument."
ACY I don't know whether anybody has ever said it before, but I'll say it here: "The mere fact that the other person has stopped talking does not mean you have won the argument."
Your quite right. Thanks to your encouragement on the issue I am going to push Amtrak on the issue and see what happens. I think I will frame the argument as reducing back or load injuries while resupplying Amtrak trains enroute. That should capture their attention.
Electroliner 1935Yes, but even McDonalds has had issues with sanitation of the dispenser heads, they need to be cleaned per strict rules. Also, you need CO2 tanks and carbonators to supply the water. I doubt that Ed Ellis uses syrup on his cars.
Actually incorrect there, dispenser heads you just unscrew and scrub the dried syrup with a toothbrush rinse with sanitizer fluid. It is not rigourous. If an Amtrak train ever saw the patronage of a local McDonald's we wouldn't have started this thread. So your dealing with a LOT less usage on an Amtrak train and a lot less volume used since Amtrak does not sell super-sized anything.
Amtrak would only need to clean the dispensers once a day at the most. The rest of the dispenser is self-maintaining and the rest of the machine is owned by a Coke or Pepsi contractor, they do not repair or patch, they replace.
I agree even that simple nightly cleaning event would be a major chore for an Amtrak employee hence you have the cans of soda which are costing the company a LOT more.
When I was in the Legacy Lounge in Chicago Union Station the attendent there was taking the hot water out of the coffee machine to fill a spray bottle then spraying it on the counter to wipe (with no other additive to the water). Think about that for a moment in your head. Hot water sent through the atmosphere via a spray nozzle before it hits a cold counter (heh-heh).
Anyways thats why I mentioned bringing the bartender back in the Lounge. He could also be responsible for the dispenser in the dining car.
I am not aware of railroad dining/club cars ever dispensing alcahol by the shot glass from a bottle of spirits. They have, in my experience, always used 'miniture' containers of the named spirit. Minitures can be accounted for by number; the number of shots from a bottle will vary with the steadiness of the bar tenders hand (wink wink, nod nod). Not accounting for booze can be contributory to losing $985M a year operating a casino.
Nowadays the high volume bars use computerized drink measuring and dispensing equipment. Your corner bar may vary.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD I am not aware of railroad dining/club cars ever dispensing alcahol by the shot glass from a bottle of spirits. They have, in my experience, always used 'miniture' containers of the named spirit. Minitures can be accounted for by number; the number of shots from a bottle will vary with the steadiness of the bar tenders hand (wink wink, nod nod). Not accounting for booze can be contributory to losing $985M a year operating a casino. Nowadays the high volume bars use computerized drink measuring and dispensing equipment. Your corner bar may vary.
Actually provided a picture earlier of the 1940 Hiawatha with full liquor bottles in the background on the club car. I suspect the mini-bottles appeared towards the end of Private Passenger Car service, once the airlines started ordering them as an Economy measure but I have no clue.......when they first appeared.
However, I am not really concerned all that much about the alchol distribution, primarily due to the markup on booz and the space and weight it takes up it is arguable to which method is better. Though with a bartender on board, might be a personal preference thing. Soda and Iced Tea are more price sensitive and less room for markup. Also, carbonated Soda I believe is more perishable than it's syrup. Not sure about brewed Iced Tea vs Syrup Iced Tea as far as which has a better shelf life.
In 1971, the C&NW provided liquor in miniature bottles--for $1 a bottle.
I don't have my copy of Pullman's instructions for buffet service here, but, as I recall, it describes the serving of liquor in miniature bottles--the attendant was to show the bottle to the customer before breaking the seal.
Johnny
CMStPnP ACY . It requires occasional replenishment with syrup and soda water, which must be stored in cars with limited storage space. It requires a floor drain It only requires regular water to which syrup is added, the carbonation comes out of a pressurized tank, all three are combined at the dispenser. Combined the syrup and pressurized tank would cut on board storage requirements vs canned soda by at least 2/3 if not more. ...
ACY . It requires occasional replenishment with syrup and soda water, which must be stored in cars with limited storage space. It requires a floor drain
It only requires regular water to which syrup is added, the carbonation comes out of a pressurized tank, all three are combined at the dispenser. Combined the syrup and pressurized tank would cut on board storage requirements vs canned soda by at least 2/3 if not more.
...
You do not mention the space needed for the water, to mix with the syrup and gas. They would need to carry water, over and above what they already carry.
MidlandMike CMStPnP ACY . It requires occasional replenishment with syrup and soda water, which must be stored in cars with limited storage space. It requires a floor drain It only requires regular water to which syrup is added, the carbonation comes out of a pressurized tank, all three are combined at the dispenser. Combined the syrup and pressurized tank would cut on board storage requirements vs canned soda by at least 2/3 if not more. ... You do not mention the space needed for the water, to mix with the syrup and gas. They would need to carry water, over and above what they already carry.
Soda fountain
Looks like it takes a lot of space even in a McDonalds. Add to that the large water tanks needed on a train and........
OK, lol, I will admit now that I did not know that Amtrak service personell get confused which color coded hose connects to the water tank to refill.........gross.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2012/04/30/epa-orders-amtrak-to-test-drinking-water-on-trains/#2953e07844ad
That is kind of sad but it also kind of proves something about supervision of Amtrak health standards I guess.
DeggestyI don't have my copy of Pullman's instructions for buffet service here...
Until you can get it, you can find the beverage instructions here on p.21. Notably this says
...always show the bottle to the passenger before opening. This will act as a protection to employe [sic] as he will be assured that he is serving the passenger just what is wanted. All bottles must be opened in the presence of passenger.
Note also the immediately preceding instructions about suggestive upselling, and that a seltzer siphon (charged with CO2 gas) will be provided free ... if grudgingly ... on request. I'd be tempted to consider using something like a SodaStream machine (charged from a larger tank and not overpriced Israeli cartridges) if extending the 'make as you go' model to car service: this would entail filling a bottle with potable water, adding an appropriate metered squirt of syrup, and locking the device onto the carbonator for a timed charge, after which the bottle would be capped and transported to the customer 'for display', opened and dispensed. It should be possible to control sanitation and cleanliness in this environment as it would NOT be for dispensing mixed soda into open glasses. Interestingly, it would also be possible to adjust some of the soda characteristics (e.g., adding additional malic or citric acid for more 'tang' or hands-free adding custom flavors like vanilla or cherry) for any particular bottle on request, probably for a value-added additional charge; this would be enormously simpler and cheaper than doing 'all that' in a computerized machine like the current Coke versions, and would not be subject to the mechanical and sanitary failures of such machines in a vibrating environment away from convenient service tech access...
I remain quite convinced that closed bottles are a better solution for soda service in most 'commodity' passenger-service requirements where a limited number of soda choices is inherently tolerable. It is also possible -- albeit with a better commissary system in general -- to stow a certain number of specialty products that have been requested by passengers (a few bottles of Briar's or Reed's, perhaps, or diet drinks for PKU sensitives) without incurring the sort of major storage-space-requirement ballooning that corresponds to planogram wars in supermarkets. Hard to beat the simplicity of bringing a few stackable crates full of pre-carbonated bottles and cans aboard compared to tinkering with CO2 tankage, regular rinse, purge and wipedown of nozzles, checking and opening up the syrup rack to change pouches on rough track, etc. If the train weren't moving, and you could easily arrange for the NuCO2 guy to service your Dewar when and wherever you needed it, the typical restaurant (or bar) model for soda dispensing might be attractive... if it weren't a Government-associated show.
(Personally, I was never happier than when I had a freshly-made "Am and Cheese" sandwich, a red can of Coke, and a tall plastic cup full of cold pebbled ice to take to my seat... but I'm hardly typical of Pullman customers.)
CMStPnP:
I try to avoid getting sucked into this nonsense, but you just won't quit, will you? I'm really, really, REALLY getting sick of this.
If your last comment proves anything, it proves that you are all too willing to use poorly interpreted, very old data to make your shaky points. Sanitation is a very serious issue, and I don't want to deny that. But a bit of perspective seems to be called for.
The article came out in 2012, four years ago, and cites information from 2009 and 2010, six and seven years ago. It says serious problems (fecal coliform bacteria) were found in three passenger cars and one water stanchion at one location in Sunnyside Yard, New York. It does note some less serious nonfecal coliform bactreria discovered in a small number of additional cars. If you read the whole article, you will discover that EPA did this testing after discovering such problems on an astounding 15% of airliners at 19 airports. In other words, the problem at Amtrak was far less severe than on the airlines. The article says nothing about any such Amtrak problems since 2010. I know it's presumptuous, but could that be because there haven't been any?
I know Amtrak inspectors routinely do inspect the cars and the water stanchions. In fact, I personally am aware of a situation where an Amtrak inspector checked the stanchions at a local rewatering facility and found that they were contaminated. Further investigation revealead that the contamination originated in the LOCAL CITY WATER SUPPLY, and was not caused by anything Amtrak did. The local folks were notified immediately, corrective measures were taken, and the city water supply was brought into compliance quickly and without incident. That, of course, never found its way into your Forbes article because a problem solved is not juicy news.
To add insult to injury, you say Amtrak service personnel get confused as to which color coded hose to use to differentiate potable from nonpotable water. You don't just suggest it or imply it. You state it categorically. Nowhere in the article was it even remotely suggested that the contamination came from that. It could have come any of a number of sources. My own best guess is that it was from an underground leak. That's just a guess, but it's probably a much better guess than your own quackamamie ideas.
I have no idea how you think this addresses the many objections to your harebrained schemes to apply the standards of a stationary restaurant to the realities of a mobile facility with limited space, limited windows of opportunity for service, and all the other factors that distinguish railroad food service.
The little dig about the intelligence of Amtrak service personnel was just icing on the cake.
Is it any wonder that I have such a hard time taking you seriously?
Tom
ACY,
Your posts are written very well. Were you an English teacher at some point in your life?
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
schlimmSoda fountain Looks like it takes a lot of space even in a McDonalds. Add to that the large water tanks needed on a train and...
Except that's not a soda fountain, it's a high-speed automated drink machine. The purpose is primarily for 'fire and forget' drink ordering for the takeout line in a fast-food restaurant: that environment does not exist on a train, let alone any prospective dining or lounge-car service.
McDonald's had a previous (very, very interesting and successful) version of this approach in their older drink machine. The employee (who was assumed to be young, fairly inexperienced in the wiles of 'soda jerking', and not terribly quality motivated) held the glass up against the dispensing bar, and the computer metered a 'full charge' of ice and drink into the cup, staging the feed to avoid overfoaming and underfilling, without further attention. The time and aggravation this simple thing solved, especially at rush times, was amazing. Probably very useful on a moving train, too, and with no greater 'footprint' than an ordinary close-quarters soda dispenser.
If it were possible to get around the various sanitary issues and Federal regulations with an enforceable set of policies and procedures and good maintenance equipment, I don't think the 'logistical' issues involved with a dispenser vs. the 'equivalent' in bottles and cans are particularly insoluble on -- let's say, a modular lounge-car interior that would actually fit in a Viewliner II shell. [/snark] The various syrups would be packaged in pouches, probably with a better method of latching and connecting them to the lines, and these could easily be made in smaller individual size than the large ones needed for, say, a high-volume fast-food store. An individual cabinet 'out of the way' accessible without bending or stooping or banging the anatomy when bad geometry is encountered is not rocket science, and even if there needs to be a procedure to purge and flush the feed line when syrup is changed (I don't see a reason for this if done promptly when a reservoir is near empty) that can be done reasonably quickly to sealable container. I never had a particular problem with CO2 bottles in the Cottage taproom, where we served a far larger crowd than any train, even with a discotheque car, would produce, although there does need to be some care with interlocks for the valving and lines, and I think you'd need wheels and oversized handles to carry the tankage up and down tight stairs and corridors and guards to ensure that the inevitable drops or banging wouldn't damage valves, create impromptu rocket motors, etc. The hard part is the drain if there's lots of slop in the ice dispenser, excessive foamover on filling, leaks in nozzles, etc. but I can think of several expedient solutions to this that would work for any extended period. I don't consider adding volume of potable water roughly equivalent to the volume now provided in the full load of bottles and cans to be an insoluble difficulty, nor do I think that a proper portable station to filter and treat this water as it goes into the dispenser (think refrigerator icemaker filters, people) is colossally impractical.
The real issue, though, is as Tom described (from hard and reasonably long) experience: the amount of work and general tribulation added to the car attendants' jobs to support a fountain and all its maintenance requirements will quickly eat up any marginal savings on the food cost of the individual drink servings. Let alone the first lawsuit when a step is missed in one of the procedures and a customer even sees an opportunity to complain. Sealed bottles, as noted here and elsewhere, have few if any of those potential problems, are easily replenished from many ad hoc sources enroute or delivered by untrained personnel, and (as has not been mentioned yet) can be easily removed from the train and stowed cheaply if unused on a particular run, or kept on the car indefinitely if rules permit. That will probably NOT be the case for syrup in (or around) a dispenser, especially if for some reason the car is off power or shore HVAC for any great length of time...
JPS1:
I take that as a great compliment, but nope.
Eight years of Catholic Parochial school under the tutelage of the Sisters of the Holy Humility of Mary, then four years of high school under the Brothers of Holy Cross (same folks who run Notre Dame). After that, I spent several years in a couple different colleges, mostly as an English major, but I really think my strongest grounding in English came under Brother Harold, Brother Liguori, and Mr. Schmidt in High School. I never graduated from college for a number of reasons (excuses?), and spent most of my life working in one form or another of service jobs. The last 26 years before retirement in 2014 were in service as an Amtrak onboard service attendant.
It may be a shock to CMStPnP, but I knew what hose to use to fill the tanks, and I did it hundreds --- maybe thousands --- of times without killing anybody!
RMEThe real issue, though, is as Tom described (from hard and reasonably long) experience: the amount of work and general tribulation added to the car attendants' jobs to support a fountain and all its maintenance requirements will quickly eat up any marginal savings on the food cost of the individual drink servings.
I think that's what most of us have been saying.
RMENote also the immediately preceding instructions about suggestive upselling, and that a seltzer siphon (charged with CO2 gas) will be provided free ... if grudgingly ... on request. I'd be tempted to consider using something like a SodaStream machine (charged from a larger tank and not overpriced Israeli cartridges) if extending the 'make as you go' model to car service: this would entail filling a bottle with potable water, adding an appropriate metered squirt of syrup, and locking the device onto the carbonator for a timed charge, after which the bottle would be capped and transported to the customer 'for display', opened and dispensed. It should be possible to control sanitation and cleanliness in this environment as it would NOT be for dispensing mixed soda into open glasses. Interestingly, it would also be possible to adjust some of the soda characteristics (e.g., adding additional malic or citric acid for more 'tang' or hands-free adding custom flavors like vanilla or cherry) for any particular bottle on request, probably for a value-added additional charge; this would be enormously simpler and cheaper than doing 'all that' in a computerized machine like the current Coke versions, and would not be subject to the mechanical and sanitary failures of such machines in a vibrating environment away from convenient service tech access...
That refers to Selzer Water described here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soda_syphon
It's a slightly different concept as the water is pre-carbonated in the bottle before it is added into a cup not mixed at a dispenser nozzle. Not sure if you have any experience with that type of setup but if your not careful with the dispensing lever it sprays selzer water everywhere (lol). There is skill there in dispensing.
As for carrying all this extra water, I'm too pretty sure the onboard tanks can handle the supply, have my doubts they carry extra bottled water currently for Coffee or Tea, though it would be humorous to see them pour previously loaded bottled water into a coffee maker based on what we learned so far I would not be surprised if that was the practice. Those LD trains generate HUGE and I mean HUGE amounts of trash and if you look most is all paper, card board, plastic water bottles, etc. Surprised they don't have a trash compactor but that is just me letting my mind wonder.
Of course we should probably ask if they make the ICE on board or load it as well in bags into a freezer. I would guess the former but with Amtrak it could very be the latter <lets hope not>.
I dealt with COKE products mostly which included their Gold Peak Tea line of syrups as well as all their usual flavors FANTA ORANGE, DR PEPPER, SPRITE, DIET COKE, REGULAR COKE, ROOT BEER, etc. Gold Peak tea was a labor saver as you no longer had to brew tea first then ice it.
Syrup is resupplied by COKE, anywhere in the United States there is a restaurant, just call an 800 number and they will setup a date and time for you. I am sure they could work out a deal with COKE for resupply in an emergency to a train on the move as well as to the commissary. As I said before the dispenser itself does not require electric power or HVAC it uses the CO2 and pistons to propel the syrup to the nozzle, the syrup is mixed at the nozzle with the water and carbonation in the exact portions that COKE preset on the machine. COKE would take care of the machine and replace / maintain it. Actually, no maintenance or patching they just replace. They do not trust their clients to do so as they want a quality steady level of service and taste no matter where you buy a Coke. Thats how they protect their brand.
The Syrup comes as a bag in a box with a hose to connect to the CO2 piston, two sizes of syrup small size for about $8-10 and large size for about $18. Large size lasts about 1200 servings approx, Small about 600........just guessing on servings as I forget but am in the general ballpark. Large size box a little larger than the size of a shoe box. Small size about half.
Really only way Amtrak could screw this up is by running out of CO2, which by the way you can get from any welding supply company in the United States via phone call and account. They swap the tanks and disconnect / reconnect them for you if you ask. And I said earlier there is a fairly quiet alarm that goes off as the CO2 gets low but it continues to serve for a while after that. Quiet beeping sound, powered by CO2 pressure.
In regards to cleaning you only have to clean the nozzle and COKE provides a kit with clear instructions. I am absolutely confident EPA, FDA or whatever else would not be more stringent than that. What happens if you don't clean the nozzle, well it takes a lot of servings to show up ( approx 400+) but the syrup has a tendency to coagulate in the nozzle. It would be gross to see it floating in a cup but I doubt anyone would get sick and it's not a critical item on the health department inspection unless you miss it chronically. As for the front of the dispenser if you bought a small client facing dispenser instead of a wand (like bartenders use), the ice catch and overfill catch drain to a regular floor drain. You just need to pour HOT WATER down the drain sometimes during heavy usage to clear the ice and liquid, I have never seen it clog but if it does there is also a declog stick COKE provides. Front of the Client facing dispenser, wipe down with a spray of sanitizer as needed and cloth........they have to do that anyway on a cafe serving line. It's really not complicated. Coke does most of the work and service to protect their brand.
Oh and when you see HVAC on a Coke machine it is used to pre-chill the water and syrup lines or keep the ICE in the ICE hopper cool, both items are unnecessary for operation, you only need the syrup, water, CO2......and just pour it over ICE....same deal with the cans. Sometimes served warm with a glass of ICE.
I think we beat this horse to death, time to move on.
OK, kids, I have had no experience in this business, but it seems to me that the difference in cost of serving drinks with either method would be mighty insignificant compared to the total cost of running any food service on a train.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
schlimmI think that's what most of us have been saying.
User Maintenence is roughly equal to brushing your teeth at night. Everything else is covered by COKE and it's contractors. Reachable via 800 number and they even have emergency service.
CMStPnP schlimm User Maintenence is roughly equal to brushing your teeth at night. Everything else is covered by COKE and it's contractors. Reachable via 800 number and they even have emergency service.
schlimm
We can put hard numbers on this (and get a partial answer to what Paul noted) at this point.
Compare what Coke would charge for the installation for a month (net of all overhead) plus the marginal 'food cost' for all the factors
with
the cost to supply the current number of bottled drinks via the commissary system (either Amtrak's or a politically-acceptable substitute) for the same period.
That includes the time cost involved with serving and, if necessary, delivering the completed drink orders. (The cost for 'spillage' of open drinks on poor track involves minimal food cost, but substantial crew cost for the cleanups, so it might be useful for Tom to approximate what the number of spilled open drinks vs. dispensed bottles might involve. That's the only cost that I think needs to be approximated for our purposes.)
Be interesting to see what Coke would put together as a service package for typical LD dining-car operation, including operational contingencies, business-interruption insurance coverage, etc. They might even be willing to provide a lower quote for the publicity inherent in the operation.
Personally, I agree with Paul that the absolute savings aren't 'relevant enough' to make concentrating on this part of the service more than a demonstration of effective planning and execution within overall competent management. But remember that the topic of this thread isn't the same as the previous one(s) where this beverage option was beaten to death -- the context here is explicitly that a high-end operator is providing service 'on his dime' that is inherently part of making a coherent 'user experience' that will justify enough revenue and return business to make the thing -- including the food and beverage service, though perhaps not as a pure line-item -- practical enough to at least carry it through the 'bad times' of lower passenger loading (which I think is one thing that killed the profitability of the CofNO add-on service that Ed Ellis was trying to run).
There might be a way to promote 'bottled beverages' as an option (see the comments about the Pullman commissary instructions on this very subject) but I think it might be more difficult to do this with 'ordinary' sodas and drinks in the luxury context. I'd tacitly agree with Paul that there's far more importance in things like reducing the cost of good food alternatives, and assuring the right attitude for 'customer interactions'. But I also can't help but wonder whether careful and thoughtful attention to saving money in every detail of food-service execution would count for something when it comes time to defend the retention of that service in the annual Congress run-around. That's why I've been following the involved discussion and taken careful notes on the points that have been made, here and elsewhere, by people with very different experiences in providing what they acknowledge to be appropriate customer service.
CM:
Yes, we had ice makers and trash compactors on the Amtrak Auto Train when it was equipped with single level heritage equipment. They were subject to all the buffeting that you might expect on the inconsistent and unpredictable track Amtrak trains use. They worked fine as long as they worked; a PIA when they broke down enroute with no way to fix them.
You say Coke will send a guy out on a service call 24/7. So he meets the train at some godforsaken outpost and climbs aboard. You say it's a 24/7 service, so let's say he gets aboard at 3 am so he can have the Coke machine repaired by the time the lounge car opens in the morning. He finishes at 6 am, and the train has moved 150 miles down the track, so the vehicle he arrived in is nowhere to be seen. Next train back to his vehicle is midnight tonight. You didn't think they were going to hold the train and tie up the host RR for a Coke machine, did you? This guy, who is accustomed to working on stationary Coke machines, must do his work while the train is in motion. Has he been trained in the Amtrak "Move Smart" program? Who paid for that training? Who is liable if he gets hurt while he's working on board? Isn't it a lot simpler and easier to just stock canned Coke?
You are parading a bunch of solutions, in search of a problem.
RMEWe can put hard numbers on this
Who will do that?
Soft drink dispensers, in addition to being space-eaters, are heavy.
(Also, I added info to my last previous post).
RMEThere might be a way to promote 'bottled beverages' as an option (see the comments about the Pullman commissary instructions on this very subject) but I think it might be more difficult to do this with 'ordinary' sodas and drinks in the luxury context.
Luxury does not imply soda from a machine in a cup with ice. That is fast-food quality. The soda dispenser also seems to have a lot more problems than canned drinks. Whatever cost benefits there are (if any) seem trivial.
schlimmIf a soft drink dispenser is such a money saver, why don't the airlines do that? Most people prefer soft drinks in a can or screw-top plastic bottle. European lines I ride use cans and bottles, BTW.
Looking at most self-serve soda dispensers in convenience stores and the like, I usually opt for the bottles. Plus the fact the public has their hands all over those dispensers and nozzles- and that people as a general rule are pretty disgusting...
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
RMECompare what Coke would charge for the installation for a month (net of all overhead) plus the marginal 'food cost' for all the factors
COKE only charges for the retail cost of the syrup and the cleaning kits. Everything else is free of charge including use of the machine, onsite labor, delivery costs of syrup.
They have a min purchase of syrup, min five large boxes with one delivery or it is not worth their while to send the truck.
The pistons on the machine are built like a tank other than the nozzles this is the only breakable item and I never had a machine break or seen one broken.
If you wanted you can call the local COKE distributor and price the difference but once you do that he will be all over you like a bad suit to get a machine installed and syrup delivered as that is where he gets commission from. Thats if you did it independently. Most firms have a National Account Number with COKE and work through one guy unless they are a large distributor then the guy is local.
Because there are only how many passengers on a flight and for how long? Also those compressed CO2 gas cylinders not sure how altitude changes impact them but I think the bottom line reason is they are really heavy when full. Most can move them when empty but you need a dolly when they are heavy. Also, what about a leak of CO2 on a enclosed space like an airplane not and issue on a train the ventilation could probably handle on a train.......airplane I think the ventiilation is weaker.
schlimm RME Luxury does not imply soda from a machine in a cup with ice.
RME
Luxury does not imply soda from a machine in a cup with ice.
No, it does not. The point I was making is that there may be 'value' to presenting a bottle of 'high-end' soda or water to a client in a luxury setting, but not bringing out a Diet Coke or even Barq's/Schweppe's "name-brand" bottle. So if a luxury client wants a Coke (in something like a tall crystal glass with the right kind of recommended 'wet' ice, garnish and so forth) there would be relatively less added 'perceived value' in letting him or her see you were opening up a fresh can or bottle.
I'm surprised (but glad) that no one brought up the 'bright idea' of using relatively inexpensive two-liter bottles instead of individual portion control, even though that is probably the lowest-cost approach per served drink (net of all capital and repair) of them all. Not a good answer on a train in this context, even hidden behind a bar, for many reasons.
The comparison numbers ought to come from CMStP&P as he has current connections with people at the Coca-Cola Company and he probably understands wholesale costing and availability for cases of canned and individual-bottle goods. I can probably work something up but it won't be current.
Just as a note: he said the Coca-Cola guy would switch out the whole machine, or at the very least some diagnosed set of FRUs, and that should not take very long. If for some reason the train couldn't wait the few minutes for that, it seems pretty obvious that the repairman would have a co-driver who would take the service vehicle to the next scheduled stop and pick him up -- why should he need to sit around hours and hours waiting for uncertain return connections to whatever random burg he left an expensively provisioned service vehicle parked, when he could be doing other business (or going home) with only an additional driver's salary expense involved?
I do not know whether there is a cost-effective level of preventive maintenance inspection, or remote monitoring, that would preclude most 'surprise' catastrophic failures in the first place. Certainly there is enough capability in the control bandwidth of the train's Internet connection to stream diagnostic ASCII messages with minimal latency, and I suspect enough repair personnel distributed across the United States to allow a reasonably rapid response time (again, to replace stuff rather than start tinkering with it in the cramped quarters of a train while passengers line up to watch the fun) possible.
However, as you probably should have noted, the cost of the service contract that would provide the 'necessary' service -- which might make sense if it could be amortized across thousands of customers a day -- would all by itself destroy most if not all the competitive cost advantage of dispensed drinks over pre-packaged and passively stable cans or bottles on a luxury train.
RME schlimm RME Luxury does not imply soda from a machine in a cup with ice. No, it does not. The point I was making is that there may be 'value' to presenting a bottle of 'high-end' soda or water to a client in a luxury setting, but not bringing out a Diet Coke or even Barq's/Schweppe's "name-brand" bottle. So if a luxury client wants a Coke (in something like a tall crystal glass with the right kind of recommended 'wet' ice, garnish and so forth) there would be relatively less added 'perceived value' in letting him or her see you were opening up a fresh can or bottle. I'm surprised (but glad) that no one brought up the 'bright idea' of using relatively inexpensive two-liter bottles instead of individual portion control, even though that is probably the lowest-cost approach per served drink (net of all capital and repair) of them all. Not a good answer on a train in this context, even hidden behind a bar, for many reasons. The comparison numbers ought to come from CMStP&P as he has current connections with people at the Coca-Cola Company and he probably understands wholesale costing and availability for cases of canned and individual-bottle goods. I can probably work something up but it won't be current. Just as a note: he said the Coca-Cola guy would switch out the whole machine, or at the very least some diagnosed set of FRUs, and that should not take very long. If for some reason the train couldn't wait the few minutes for that, it seems pretty obvious that the repairman would have a co-driver who would take the service vehicle to the next scheduled stop and pick him up -- why should he need to sit around hours and hours waiting for uncertain return connections to whatever random burg he left an expensively provisioned service vehicle parked, when he could be doing other business (or going home) with only an additional driver's salary expense involved? I do not know whether there is a cost-effective level of preventive maintenance inspection, or remote monitoring, that would preclude most 'surprise' catastrophic failures in the first place. Certainly there is enough capability in the control bandwidth of the train's Internet connection to stream diagnostic ASCII messages with minimal latency, and I suspect enough repair personnel distributed across the United States to allow a reasonably rapid response time (again, to replace stuff rather than start tinkering with it in the cramped quarters of a train while passengers line up to watch the fun) possible. However, as you probably should have noted, the cost of the service contract that would provide the 'necessary' service -- which might make sense if it could be amortized across thousands of customers a day -- would all by itself destroy most if not all the competitive cost advantage of dispensed drinks over pre-packaged and passively stable cans or bottles on a luxury train.
Sandwich shops and dining cars are apples and oranges.
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