Nice blurb in Railroad News.
Gist of it is three year plan to get losses to zero though a series of initiatives the involve technology and just plain paying attention to business. Nearly all the losses are on the LD trains (surely, they charge-back first class "free" meals at menu prices...)
Technology will reduce paperwork and time spent by on board personnel and allow them to focus on selling. Also will help with inventory mgt, and control. Will review menus more often to keep things fresh.
It seems like Amtrak is slowly waking up. Maybe they don't like being such an easy target for the "antis"?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Good news all around.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Five years to eliminate the losses on its food and beverage services? Wow! It is a good thing Amtrak does not have to play in a competitive market. Can you image McDonald's or Chili's saying that it will eliminate the losses on its restaurants in five years? A business, especially a so-called established business, does not get that much time to turn around its losses.
Better inventory control, purchasing, electronic order taking and billing, menus, etc. may help. However, as long as Amtrak runs the food service, as opposed to outsourcing it to a vendor whose core competencies are food service, I would not place much money on Amtrak's ability to get it right.
I have been in the dining car of the Texas Eagle four or five times this summer. Out of San Antonio recently I got the scrambled eggs with red potatoes and raisin toast for breakfast. The eggs were hard, the potatoes were spongy, and the toast was rubbery. The server had a severe attitude problem, perhaps because the lead server sat on her backside whilst the lone server tried to serve four tables.
Coming home from Dallas two weeks ago I had the pasta dish. The pasta was OK, as was the salad, but the vegetables were rubbery. And the ice cream was hard as a rock. They should have served it with a jack hammer. The woman next to me ordered the Amtrak steak for $25.95. It was pitiful. Denny's can serve up a better looking steak for half the price.
The only decent sit-down meal that I have ever had in an Amtrak dining car was in the Pacific Parlor car two years ago. I had a goat cheese and chicken salad that was very good. Also, I have had a good turkey and cheese sandwich from the lounge car on the Texas Eagle.
I realize now I made a big mistake (but Amtrak is continuing to make a huge one). I was assuming Amtrak would do the sensible thing and stick to their core competencies, i.e. running trains, not running the food service in dining cars. They should be farming this business out to experienced contractors in that business. Riders might get better, cheaper basic food and Amtrak could save money and use it for better purposes.
Sam1Five years to eliminate the losses on its food and beverage services?
Yes. Too slow. And too much "on their own". But, at least they don't appear to be completely brain dead. Gotta give credit when it's due, though!
They must have one or a few "hot shots' in their IT dept. They have done a lot an done it well lately - at least that we can see. E ticketing, better web portal, train status map.. They have come from way behind on some of those things and basically caught up.
oltmannd Sam1Five years to eliminate the losses on its food and beverage services? Yes. Too slow. And too much "on their own". But, at least they don't appear to be completely brain dead. Gotta give credit when it's due, though! They must have one or a few "hot shots' in their IT dept. They have done a lot an done it well lately - at least that we can see. E ticketing, better web portal, train status map.. They have come from way behind on some of those things and basically caught up.
You are correct, Amtrak's IT department appears to have gotten some things right, at least from a customer service perspective, i.e. e-ticketing, improved web portal, etc.
If my memory serves me correctly, Amtrak outsourced its IT function to IBM. That may explain the latest IT driven improvements.
Sam1 Five years to eliminate the losses on its food and beverage services?
Five years to eliminate the losses on its food and beverage services?
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
I'm no expert here, but it seems to me Amtrak needs a 21st Century equivalent of Fred Harvey, or at least someone who understands the restaurant business.
Maybe they should "head hunt" someone from one of the successful chains, like "Olive Garden" or "Longhorn Steak House."
Sounds like a "glide path" to me. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
Seriously, I am just off a 5-leg, 3-route, 5258-mile trip, and nearly everything was so much better than it was the last time I explored so much of the system (10 years ago) I am full of praise for Amtrak.
I make an exception for the lazy and cheeky dining crew -- which must be the one of whom Fred Frailey has complained -- on No. 6 the day I rode into Chicago.
The food could be better -- or a lot worse. (I experienced both on the rails, pre-Amtrak.) Me, I'm not complaining. If they can figure out a way to break even without sacrificing service -- and the china and tablecloths -- God bless 'em.
In 45 years of flying, have had one good meal on airlines, even during the "golden age" of flight (old Frontier). Feel Amtrak foor is 6-7 on a scales of 10. Then. of course, there's the great Southwest with its offering of 30 peanuts.
Muralist0221 In 45 years of flying, have had one good meal on airlines, even during the "golden age" of flight (old Frontier). Feel Amtrak foor is 6-7 on a scales of 10. Then. of course, there's the great Southwest with its offering of 30 peanuts.
Southwest figured it out. Most people don't want an airplane meal; they want low fares and frequent service. Peanuts will do just fine. Southwest has turned a profit nearly every year since its inception.
Amtrak offers meals of dubious quality served up by a wait staff that in too many instances has an attitude problem. Since its inception, which was around the time that Southwest lifted off, it has lost more than $40 billion when adjusted for constant dollars.
Sam1 Southwest figured it out. Most people don't want an airplane meal; they want low fares and frequent service. Peanuts will do just fine.
Southwest figured it out. Most people don't want an airplane meal; they want low fares and frequent service. Peanuts will do just fine.
dakotafred Sam1 Southwest figured it out. Most people don't want an airplane meal; they want low fares and frequent service. Peanuts will do just fine. Totally different. On a flight of 1-2 hours, why even bother with the token peanuts? When airlines were serving "meals," those were criticized as Amtrak's are. On a train trip of more than a few hours, you obviously have to have the food option. (Unless you like Greyhound-style meal stops.)
dakotafred Sounds like a "glide path" to me. (Sorry, couldn't resist.) Seriously, I am just off a 5-leg, 3-route, 5258-mile trip, and nearly everything was so much better than it was the last time I explored so much of the system (10 years ago) I am full of praise for Amtrak. I make an exception for the lazy and cheeky dining crew -- which must be the one of whom Fred Frailey has complained -- on No. 6 the day I rode into Chicago. The food could be better -- or a lot worse. (I experienced both on the rails, pre-Amtrak.) Me, I'm not complaining. If they can figure out a way to break even without sacrificing service -- and the china and tablecloths -- God bless 'em.
Kevin C. Smith I wonder/worry, too, if "eliminate food service losses" doesn't just mean "eliminate food service entirely".
They said "eliminate losses" and went on to explain the program which did not say food service would be gone entirely. But I am as suspicious as you guys. Perhaps those who would rather get rid of Amtrak read it that way in great hopes while equally hopeful pro Amtrakers reading in a positive way. But Congress has to stop looking at Amtrak as running a toy train on a circle of track around a Christmas tree and realize it is a real business with all kinds of marketing and gimmicks have to be spun around real service to attract and hold customers and earn a return. They also have to weigh the benefits of operating Amtrak against whatever alternatives there are that would financially fall back on governments.
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Sam1 Five years to eliminate the losses on its food and beverage services? Wow! It is a good thing Amtrak does not have to play in a competitive market. Can you image McDonald's or Chili's saying that it will eliminate the losses on its restaurants in five years? A business, especially a so-called established business, does not get that much time to turn around its losses.
I agree and think the timeline is ridiculous. Where is the Congressional oversight here? Moreover why are not our Congress people demanding a higher bar for performance.
Close the 12 seperate Amtrak food commissaries, send the union folks packing with their severance packages and lets get Amtrak to contract with LSG SkyChefs for pete's sake. Amtrak does not have the train frequency West of the Northeast Corridor to keep a food Commissary in it's hands and open. It's just lunacy to preserve these commissaries.........Amtrak is NOT in the food business as a business line. It needs to exit these operations ASAP and focus on it's core business.
My two cents
BTW, rode the Capitol Limited three weeks ago roundtrip from Chicago. Dinner in the Diner, service was slow, servers were sometimes rude to the passengers, lost the dining car vouchers for the Sleeping Car passengers at times or they filled them out incorrectly (I'm betting thats part of the loss in long-distance operations). My other guess is the loss in Long Distance Operations is due to Amtrak accounting which I suspect (I said suspect) only counts the non-Sleeping Car passengers as revenue producing since the sleeping car passengers have comp meals. I think if they change that accounting gimmick they would still be losing money but not at such a high rate.
My observation on the Capitol, they basically cut the dining car in half with one half being a Cafe Car and only having maybe 3 seating at most (1.5 Dinning Cars of the full length variety). They only use the Dining Car part for passenger meals the crew sits around and loafs in the Cafe Car section. That is not a huge turnout for a meal, IMHO and also not a productive use of the car, IMO. So the food service sucks from a attfacting passengers viewpoint. Restore the use of the full Diner and improve the meal service back to a higher quality meal. Raise sleeping car rates if you have to or exclude them from the free meals program.
Onto my second complaint. The paid chef on a Superliner Diner is not a Chef by any private sector comparison since he is only reheating meals for the most part. Replace his title with that of "attendant" and save some money there. My last post about switching to LSG Skychefs would require Amtrak to reconfigure the bottom level of their Superliner Diners slightly so it would not be completely cost free but it still would be cheaper than keeping a Food Commissary open to prepare a few hundred (if that) meals a day for one or two long distance trains (in some instances).
Everything on the LD trains loses money. The reason they pick on food is because it can be separated out on the spreadsheet. The Conductor loses money, cut them. The engineer loses money cut them. Oh, wait!! we need those. We also need to feed folks if LD trains are to persist. This is the danger of modern management: if you can separate out an expense line, it can be analyzed.
On the City of NO and Empire Builder this year only the sleeping car passengers were in the dining car. The loss is due to the sleeping car passengers. Maybe they don't pay enough. Or have the dining car prices become so high the coach passengers know to stay away? I doubt that streamlining the order taking or food inventory will have much impact on the cost of running a dining car.
Five years from now the Inspector General will come to the same conclusion and the board will say the same thing. They have been promising break even for years and it just cannot be done if Amtrak is up against subsidized highway and air service.
Not news and just doing what the politicians want to hear.
The simple solution to all of this is: either Congress allows passenger railroaders to operate Amtrak, hands off, or sell Amtrak to a private enterprise and wash their hands of it. But railroads who originated Amtrak would have to agree to allow Amtrak to continue in either form as they subscribed to at the beginning.
CMStPnPMy other guess is the loss in Long Distance Operations is due to Amtrak accounting which I suspect (I said suspect) only counts the non-Sleeping Car passengers as revenue producing since the sleeping car passengers have comp meals. I think if they change that accounting gimmick they would still be losing money but not at such a high rate.
I really doubt it. I'd bet they "charge back" the value of the meals. If not, they would have brought this up at Mica's circus.
petitnj Everything on the LD trains loses money. The reason they pick on food is because it can be separated out on the spreadsheet. The Conductor loses money, cut them. The engineer loses money cut them. Oh, wait!! we need those. We also need to feed folks if LD trains are to persist. This is the danger of modern management: if you can separate out an expense line, it can be analyzed. On the City of NO and Empire Builder this year only the sleeping car passengers were in the dining car. The loss is due to the sleeping car passengers. Maybe they don't pay enough. Or have the dining car prices become so high the coach passengers know to stay away? I doubt that streamlining the order taking or food inventory will have much impact on the cost of running a dining car.
Conductor and Engineer are mandated for operating the train, the rest are a value add and not really needed. If they provide value then retain them........if not then off they go.
Seriously, we are paying a Chef in the galley to reheat meals. Have you seen any Chef's flying recently in the galley of a plane? If so, let me know the airline. Additionally, in the dining car we had three servers and one supervisor..........thats not a full service diner mind you but only HALF A DINER in operation on the Capitol LImited. You really have to be blind by nostalgia NOT to see that is a waste of labor given the amount of people being served at one time.
So I disagree, Amtrak will have some success with the point of sale automation in that the servers will not fill out or misplace the paperwork. They would have more success if they looked at service levels and staffing on board. Even more if they changed the quality of the meals being served and closed their overstaffed and ineffiicient food commissaries across the country.
I hate it when I hear that value added is not needed. If you have a sandwich with two pieces of bread and a piece of meat you have a most uninteresting, blah sandwich. But butter the bread, put mustard on the meat, put a piece of cheese atop the meat then add a leaf or two of lettuce and some mayonnaise and you've got a sandwich you'll like and come back for. Add a slice of pickle on the side, maybe a few potato chips, and you'll remember the restaurant. If you don't have value added, dressing, little touches or a big touch, somebody else will be selling your product and closing you down. If a 5 or more hour ride is what your selling, you better have something more to give than a cushion to sit on....you need something more to eat. You probably get something to eat when you visit your inlaws or you probably wouldn't go! Business means service, if you don't want to give service with quality and pride, don't expect to be in business too long. As I have often said to my fellow co workers from time to time, it you don't like this or don't want to do this, the pizza shop down the street is hiring. This is our job, this is what we do, this is how we make our money...but we've got to do it right, we've got to do it well, and we've got to do it better than our competition.
A friend of mine was flying Lufthansa from Denver to Frankfort, a ten hour flight. The meal? a bag of peanuts. For a ten hour flight on a five star carrier, I would have expected more. A LOT more, but then, I suppose she did not buy the first class ticket, eh?
TRAIN: Problem 1) too few customers to make it in a "Restaurant Business"; and 2) too long a trip to go without food.
LION: Put vending machines on all coaches, pop, sandwiches, cakes, ice cream: Want more go to the lounge car and stand on line. LIONS DO NOT STAND ON LINE! so lounge car is out. Or the Dining Car.
You will find LIONS in the dining car, they will be eating rare wildebeests.
IF LION WOULD DESIGN RAILROAD: him would not offer menu choices, but would serve cafeteria style, for example: salads, soups, sandwiches, and Chili. Enter the car and pay one price.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Amtrak should be looking at the various above-the-rails costs on its LD routes. I wonder if any folks here have enough access to information to see what the various labor expenses are on the SL or CZ or EB, broken out by engine crew, conductors, sleeping car attendants and dining service personnel. I Amtrak must retain LD services, there is no requirement it provide subsidized sleeping cars (beyond the base fare) nor subsidized dining experiences. The fare should be designed to cover expenses and dining cars should charge a sufficient amount to cover all expenses of operation. Amtrak is supposed to provide transportation, not subsidized dining experiences for seniors who largely can afford it.
Lion: Maybe things were different for your friend on LH, but on coach i have found it far superior to most other lines for transatlantic flights. Decently good food (Lufthansa owns SkyChefs), free wine and beer, are all provided with friendly service.
Does anybody know how many customers make up a full evening at any 10 to 20 table restaurant? What the table turnover is? Not a five star fine dining restaurant an average mid range decent restaurant,? Many average probably 2 to 3 turns. So a dining car maybe has 15 tables and two seatings...with as many as 120 people out of a trainload of 200-300? They should be able to rationalize a menu and format that would at best break even. And, yes, it has to be operated as a restaurant like any other restaurant, but moving. So you minimize the menu offerings per meal per day but change every night or two; but you don't shortchange your customers with quality and service. Can't be that hard if planned right.
From what others have observed, most of the patrons of the dining car on LD trains are sleeper passengers. Therefore the numbers are limited. More importantly, the labor costs for the Amtrak diner are higher per worker than a mid-priced chain restaurant. That is why it is important to determine the real costs . likely the best option is to contract food services out to specialists in that field.
schlimm From what others have observed, most of the patrons of the dining car on LD trains are sleeper passengers. Therefore the numbers are limited. More importantly, the labor costs for the Amtrak diner are higher per worker than a mid-priced chain restaurant. That is why it is important to determine the real costs . likely the best option is to contract food services out to specialists in that field.
LION has not booked a sleeper since 1970, which BTW was before AMTK. Him rode ATSF and PRR.
ATSF was decidedly better.
Be that as it may, the LION has made several LD trips by coach (Minot - NYP) and always availed himself of the dining car. Many coach passengers did so, though of course others did not.
LION would opt for LONGER serving hours rather than just two settings. There is no point in tipping wait staff on AMTK as they get full union wage and benefits, yet they seem to expect it. They seem to want to work bankers hours instead of bakers hours, and this is a problem for the bottom line.
LION would put these servers off of the train and hire a catering company to provide the service.
Dining car should be open 0500 to 2100 hours daily.: ergo two full crews.
henry6 Does anybody know how many customers make up a full evening at any 10 to 20 table restaurant? What the table turnover is? Not a five star fine dining restaurant an average mid range decent restaurant,? Many average probably 2 to 3 turns. So a dining car maybe has 15 tables and two seatings...with as many as 120 people out of a trainload of 200-300? They should be able to rationalize a menu and format that would at best break even. And, yes, it has to be operated as a restaurant like any other restaurant, but moving. So you minimize the menu offerings per meal per day but change every night or two; but you don't shortchange your customers with quality and service. Can't be that hard if planned right.
Well first I totally disagree with your contention that the dining car has to be run like a restaurant, in fact that is part of Amtrak's problem. They have limited space to serve meals, limited time range to serve them, they have to get the passengers to stick and move faster, in my opinion. Does the Rocky Mountineer run it's Gold Leaf Dining Car like a restaurant...........no they do not. They reheat meals just like both Amtrak and the Airlines. Difference of course is the meals on the Rocky Mountaineer are light years ahead of what Amtrak serves. Additionally your not stuck in the Dining car for an hour and a half watching the severs move in slow motion. In and out in 45-60 min........almost half the time that Amtrak takes for a meal seating. On the Rocky Mountaineer the experience is still pleasureable because the food is so great. Additionally, the service staff on the Rocky Mountaineer brings food / snacks to your seat which it would be a real novelty if Amtrak tried that but lets table that and say it is out of scope for Amtrak.
Second part of the "run like a restaurant" approach is Amtraks on board service personel in the Dining Car gets confused at even the slightest bit of complexity and I would even state that they cannot handle full restaurant service. Watch them bring course by course to the table (IMV it would cut down on roundtrips between the dummy waiter and table if they just served a tray meal service). Do Amtrak passengers really want a meal delivered to their table course by course........especially one not made fresh but just reheated or repackaged and served on disposable dinnerware? It is totally silly. Amtrak is trying to maintain the appearence of a 1950's Diner but using post 2000 reheatable and pre-packaged meals. Really poor management, in my view.
Third part of the "run like a restaurant" approach they need to abandon. Each sitting is an hour and 20 minutes minimum on the Capitol Limited..........some are an hour and a half. They only use half the Dinning Car on the Capitol Limited the other half is a Cafe car and sits empty. Congressman Mica is partially right ==> this is the Soviet Union approach to running a Dining Car. Open up the full Dining Car, shorten the service time so one is not sitting in the car for an eternity and so more seatings can happen AND you just might find Amtrak breaking even or turning a profit on Dining Car services. You might even be able to justify the hoard of employed Amtrak servers that Amtrak provides for just half a Dining Car.
Not sure who the poster is that said Dining Car services will always lose money. Seriously? We are going to give up before we even try? That's an American approach? Also, I would have to throw the BS flag at the comment that Dining Car services have always lost money. Unproven and hearsay in my view, prove that with something more than a lose comment from a disgruntled railroad employee during a train discontinuance.
Vending machine approach has been tried and has failed via Amtrak. I think Passengers expect more.
But my point is that a dining car is no bigger than many restaurants. A dining car has the luxury of a confined or captured clientele. Railroads used to maintain a very high standard of quality and service, albeit at a loss. But with today's' pre prepared and preservation abilities coupled with microwave cooking and the lack of need to be Delmonico's or other fine dining establishment, this science has to be and can be applicable to dining car service; the pallets and needs of rail passengers is not that of the past, either, Forget what was tried in the past both pre and post Amtrak: today's processes and technology are far beyond 1970 and 1980, etc. And the rail passenger market is better defined on one hand, and larger on the other hand. Look at what passes for dining on the highway, chain restaurants with varying degrees of quality and choices...all operated on this same precept I've outlined above: Olive Garden, Red Lobster, Ruby Tuesday's, TGI Fridays, Denny's, and Applebee's are examples. If they can present and serve a 50 state menu, then so can 100 dining cars. Intelligent applied marketing needs to be applied, throwing out the past and applying today.
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