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Amtrak to end food service losses

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, October 14, 2013 4:02 AM

I agree, again, regarding efficiency

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Monday, October 14, 2013 9:51 AM

LION says: They can grow their own crops right there on the train, perhaps raise some beef too, that ought to keep the costs down, eh?

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Posted by Dixie Flyer on Monday, October 14, 2013 11:12 AM

I just returned from a Kentucky to Denver round trip so I am a late one to get in on all these postings about food service and Long Distance trains.

My trains were largely on time and the food was good.  I think the diner-cafe on the Cardinal is a good model of a much more efficient way to offer food service.

I think my observations of how the California Z was operated would bear some relavance to this discussion.

The train runs with a baggage car that like it had twenty suitcases and one pallet of express in it.  It had a transition car which served as the dorm (it had tables I guess for the crew to lounge in downstairs).  While I have observed sleeper space sold in the dorm on the Southwest Limited I don't think this was the case on the CZ.  It had a coach-baggage car.  I have never observed the baggage section utilized on route and the door is too small to fit a pallet through.  It had a full diner with a galley area in which probally half the space is not needed anymore since the meal are pre cooked anyway.  Then it had the full lounge.  My experience has been the tables downstairs is rarely used.  On the revenue side the train operates with 2-3 coaches and two sleepers

What I see is alot of wasted space being hauled back and forth accross the country.  It seems this particular train could operate with 6 cars instead of 8 and provide the same services.  This is not just a food issue but a baggage, express, dorm, diner,and lounge issue all interelated.  You could have dorm space in the bottom of lounge or in unused kitchen space.  Put the baggage in the coach-baggage car charge $1.50 to $2.00 a mile to anyone running an express car.

As a long distance sleeper passenger I would be content to eat a mircrowave breakfast and lunch from a cafe sale if I would get a full meal for dinner.  Riding trains in the east and south prior to Amtrak I was not used to coach attendants.  I see no reason why part of their duties should be to help serve dinner.  Therefore on the CZ  if you were using a diner as a cafe-diner and dropped the lounge you would have a cafe attendant, a cook/assistant cafe attendant and three coach attendants help serve dinner.  The cafe attendant would swipe the credit cards.

Again the Cardinal diner-cafe is a good starting point.  The food preparation area in the center of the car allows the cafe and diner portions to share common space.  I see no reason why the diner portion would not be available for lounge space except between 5PM and 9PM.

 

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, October 14, 2013 11:19 AM

LION, raising beef is an expensive proposition.   Animals have to be fed.   Crops require rain.  Nah, not a good idea.    

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Posted by schlimm on Monday, October 14, 2013 2:27 PM

Dixie Flyer

I think my observations of how the California Z was operated would bear some relavance to this discussion.

The train runs with a baggage car that like it had twenty suitcases and one pallet of express in it.  It had a transition car which served as the dorm (it had tables I guess for the crew to lounge in downstairs).  While I have observed sleeper space sold in the dorm on the Southwest Limited I don't think this was the case on the CZ.  It had a coach-baggage car.  I have never observed the baggage section utilized on route and the door is too small to fit a pallet through.  It had a full diner with a galley area in which probally half the space is not needed anymore since the meal are pre cooked anyway.  Then it had the full lounge.  My experience has been the tables downstairs is rarely used.  On the revenue side the train operates with 2-3 coaches and two sleepers

What I see is alot of wasted space being hauled back and forth accross the country.  It seems this particular train could operate with 6 cars instead of 8 and provide the same services.  This is not just a food issue but a baggage, express, dorm, diner,and lounge issue all interelated.  You could have dorm space in the bottom of lounge or in unused kitchen space.  Put the baggage in the coach-baggage car charge $1.50 to $2.00 a mile to anyone running an express car.

As a long distance sleeper passenger I would be content to eat a mircrowave breakfast and lunch from a cafe sale if I would get a full meal for dinner.  Riding trains in the east and south prior to Amtrak I was not used to coach attendants.  I see no reason why part of their duties should be to help serve dinner.  Therefore on the CZ  if you were using a diner as a cafe-diner and dropped the lounge you would have a cafe attendant, a cook/assistant cafe attendant and three coach attendants help serve dinner.  The cafe attendant would swipe the credit cards.

Your eloquent description of the CZ is a fine example of what is wrong with how Amtrak is managed.   To run the CZ with as many non-revenue cars (and such a large staff) as it had 50 years ago when it had more coaches and sleepers (4.5 sleepers and 3 coaches) seems typical.  it is as Oltmann says.  To run trains the way they do because "that's the way we always did"  is the height of stagnant, inept management..

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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 11:07 AM

CMStPnP
Actually, your incorrect here.   It's Amtrak management responding/reacting to heavy criticism by Congress and a complete threatened subsidy reduction if Amtrak does not respond.     This is the third threat in a series from Congress.    Amtrak ignored the previous two because there was not any bite behind them.      Then Amtrak comes back with this totally unacceptable schedule of a multi-year reduction in cost vs multi-month to satisfy the critics.       I don't think it is Amtrak Management being responsible.

While I agree that it might be just another example of Amtrak responding only when poked in the ribs with a stick, this time seems different, as if Amtrak might actually be awake. They didn't try to explain away anything during the Mica circus - they pretty much just took the beating.  Their response might just head off some of the micromanagement through legislation they've faced in the past.  I hope so.  I also hope they can move faster than they've promised and do more in other areas.  Time will tell.

The turning point to me hinges on two occurrences.  One is when Amtrak lost commuter contracts that Boardman really, really wanted to keep.  That seems to have woken him up.  The other is the attempt at looking forward and developing a plan for the NEC, without being asked to do it.

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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 11:09 AM

schlimm

Dixie Flyer

I think my observations of how the California Z was operated would bear some relavance to this discussion.

The train runs with a baggage car that like it had twenty suitcases and one pallet of express in it.  It had a transition car which served as the dorm (it had tables I guess for the crew to lounge in downstairs).  While I have observed sleeper space sold in the dorm on the Southwest Limited I don't think this was the case on the CZ.  It had a coach-baggage car.  I have never observed the baggage section utilized on route and the door is too small to fit a pallet through.  It had a full diner with a galley area in which probally half the space is not needed anymore since the meal are pre cooked anyway.  Then it had the full lounge.  My experience has been the tables downstairs is rarely used.  On the revenue side the train operates with 2-3 coaches and two sleepers

What I see is alot of wasted space being hauled back and forth accross the country.  It seems this particular train could operate with 6 cars instead of 8 and provide the same services.  This is not just a food issue but a baggage, express, dorm, diner,and lounge issue all interelated.  You could have dorm space in the bottom of lounge or in unused kitchen space.  Put the baggage in the coach-baggage car charge $1.50 to $2.00 a mile to anyone running an express car.

As a long distance sleeper passenger I would be content to eat a mircrowave breakfast and lunch from a cafe sale if I would get a full meal for dinner.  Riding trains in the east and south prior to Amtrak I was not used to coach attendants.  I see no reason why part of their duties should be to help serve dinner.  Therefore on the CZ  if you were using a diner as a cafe-diner and dropped the lounge you would have a cafe attendant, a cook/assistant cafe attendant and three coach attendants help serve dinner.  The cafe attendant would swipe the credit cards.

Your eloquent description of the CZ is a fine example of what is wrong with how Amtrak is managed.   To run the CZ with as many non-revenue cars (and such a large staff) as it had 50 years ago when it had more coaches and sleepers (4.5 sleepers and 3 coaches) seems typical.  it is as Oltmann says.  To run trains the way they do because "that's the way we always did"  is the height of stagnant, inept management..

It'll be interesting to see if the new mgt structure for LD trains will have any impact on the status-quo.  The guy in charge certainly has the responsibility and authority.  What will he do with it?

From a recent news-blurb, the position will "...have accountability for safety, customer satisfaction, ridership, on-time performance, and financial results for the long-distance business line....will oversee the functions of the Transportation, Mechanical, and Engineering departments within a common business line for the 15 long-distance services. The new route directors who are responsible for profit and loss, business planning, and decision-making for specific long-distance trains will report to him."

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 1:21 PM

"The new route directors who are responsible for profit and loss, business planning, and decision-making for specific long-distance trains will report to him."

Amtrak should reword this sentence.  The new route directors, who are responsible for controlling the long distance train losses, will have any plans to make significant changes in the long distance trains thwarted by the 535 egotistical, independent contractors in the U.S. Congress. And the downstream decision makers that report to him or her will see their decisions fall into the same pit.

After 40 years of racking up billions in losses, the long distance trains, which don't come close to covering their operating costs, let alone their fully allocated costs, are not likely to turn profitable.  Or stop bleeding Amtrak dry!

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, October 18, 2013 6:03 AM

Sam1

"The new route directors who are responsible for profit and loss, business planning, and decision-making for specific long-distance trains will report to him."

Amtrak should reword this sentence.  The new route directors, who are responsible for controlling the long distance train losses, will have any plans to make significant changes in the long distance trains thwarted by the 535 egotistical, independent contractors in the U.S. Congress. And the downstream decision makers that report to him or her will see their decisions fall into the same pit.

After 40 years of racking up billions in losses, the long distance trains, which don't come close to covering their operating costs, let alone their fully allocated costs, are not likely to turn profitable.  Or stop bleeding Amtrak dry!

I would expect the P&L responsibility is relative to expectations set by historical norms.  The goal would be "better".

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Posted by V.Payne on Friday, October 18, 2013 1:41 PM

"On the revenue side the train operates with 2-3 coaches and two sleepers."

But if the new Route Director position is not allowed to order new/additional revenue equipment can they really be accountable for the full profit and loss? They are not allowed to vary the most important variable in the transportation profitability question, operational scale.

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Posted by schlimm on Saturday, October 19, 2013 9:12 AM

If the coaches and sleepers have load factors under 60%, adding more revenue cars will only increase the operating expenses, to say nothing of misallocated resources, which could be added to expanding srvices on more promising routes.  Or adding a day train on the Crescent route (ATL-DC only), as Don Oltmann has suggested.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, October 20, 2013 9:22 AM

Getting back to food service, and the possibiltiy of switching to a Sky-Chefs approach, where elsewhere in the world are fast regular (not nostalgia, museum or deluxe tourist trains) trains operated with the historic dining car approach used on most Amtrak long-distance trains and on the Canadian?   Anywhere?

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Posted by schlimm on Sunday, October 20, 2013 9:46 AM

Dave:    DB uses an updated concept on its intercity trains, with either Bord-Bistro or Bord-restaurant cars (or both).  Service is faster than the traditional dining car. I think they cover their costs.   They offer a wide range, including food served at your seat in 1st class.    Link which shows menus, etc. as PDF's.  https://www.bahn.de/p/view/service/zug/bordgastronomie/monatsaktion.shtml?dbkanal_007=L01_S01_D001_KIN0001_service-flyout-bistro_LZ01

it is in German, but i think you are reasonably fluent?  Here are the Bord-restaurant offerings:

https://db-bordgastronomie.de/dbgastro/downloads/DB_BR-Speisekarte_13-09.pdf

The menus are bilingual.

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 20, 2013 12:25 PM

daveklepper

Getting back to food service, and the possibiltiy of switching to a Sky-Chefs approach, where elsewhere in the world are fast regular (not nostalgia, museum or deluxe tourist trains) trains operated with the historic dining car approach used on most Amtrak long-distance trains and on the Canadian?   Anywhere?

The Great Southern Railway in Australia has three trains (Indian Pacific, Ghan, and Overland) that offer sit-down dining cars.  

The Indian Pacific and the Ghan run one or two days a week depending on the season. The Overland runs two days per week.  

I have ridden all three trains.  They attract a significant number of foreign and domestic tourists, but they also get riders from the intermediate stops, especially those in the Outback.  Whether they are tourist trains depends on the definition of a tourist train.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, October 21, 2013 1:54 AM

Sam:  Is their meal service provided in a manner similar to most of Amtrak's long distance trains?

Schlimm:   Mouth watering!   But do these trains have full kitchens with food cooked from scratch on board or is it more like aircraft and Acela preparation?  

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Posted by schlimm on Monday, October 21, 2013 8:08 AM

On German trains, centrally prepared and heated on board by a variety of methods.  Mostly pretty good. 

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, October 21, 2013 8:42 AM

V.Payne
But if the new Route Director position is not allowed to order new/additional revenue equipment can they really be accountable for the full profit and loss? They are not allowed to vary the most important variable in the transportation profitability question, operational scale.

Two thoughts on this:

1. If consists are fixed, that doesn't preclude working on other areas to improve revenue and reduce costs. Amtrak is fertile ground for all sorts of initiatives.  Optimize schedules, reduce servicing costs, provide more "self serve" services, charge for reserved/premium seats, etc.

2. If they can show that additional equipment will provide incremental revenue in excess of  incremental costs by enough to finance equipment, Amtrak should be able to get outside financing.  Also, improving equipment availability can "create" more equipment.  Could Amtrak get to 95% availabiltiy?  Probably.

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, October 21, 2013 8:44 AM

schlimm

Dave:    DB uses an updated concept on its intercity trains, with either Bord-Bistro or Bord-restaurant cars (or both).  Service is faster than the traditional dining car. I think they cover their costs.   They offer a wide range, including food served at your seat in 1st class.    Link which shows menus, etc. as PDF's.  https://www.bahn.de/p/view/service/zug/bordgastronomie/monatsaktion.shtml?dbkanal_007=L01_S01_D001_KIN0001_service-flyout-bistro_LZ01

it is in German, but i think you are reasonably fluent?  Here are the Bord-restaurant offerings:

https://db-bordgastronomie.de/dbgastro/downloads/DB_BR-Speisekarte_13-09.pdf

The menus are bilingual.

A whole business model to steal, lock, stock and barrel!

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Posted by NKP guy on Monday, October 21, 2013 9:00 AM

I rode several fine trains in France, Germany, and Poland in May.  

I'm sorry, but the food experience (one can hardly say dining) is very disappointing.  In Germany's Bord-ello food cars the food is prepackaged and heated by micro-wave ovens.  It is, in my opinion, not "very good" at all.  In fact, it bears a distinct relationship to Amtrak's cafe cars on the east coast.  You have to take your little cardboard box of burning hot food and your beverage back to your seat a few cars away, not a very happy experience.  And, sorry, sitting in your seat to eat is also a less-than-ideal way to eat, very akin to the airlines.  In fact, the entire experience is too similar to the airline food experience.

If this is some guys' idea of a great way to offer food service to all-day passengers, then I couldn't disagree more.  Poland still offers dining cars with tables, waiters, etc and some fresh foods prepared on board.  I will mention that one can chat at these tables and not eat in the silence that accompanies taking the microwaved food back to one's seats.  

If the bord-ellos are the way several contributors here think is the way of the future, then I tremble for Amtrak.  Frankly, getting rid of dining cars is the dumbest idea I've read here.  Raise the prices, tax me more, but give patrons a decent, civilized way to refresh themselves as we travel.  Do you really think that further aping of airline practices will result in a happier travel experience for the public?  

Are some contributors here interested in better service for patrons, or just "saving money?"  These arguments remind me of the ones used to justify slashing social security or medicare:  We have to savage it now so that we might not have to savage it later.  Dumb.

And by the way, add B&O-C&O to the list of railroads that tried vending machines on their trains (Washington Night Express/Chicago Night Express) with a resounding thud.

Why not ask cruise ships to try vending machines or microwave ovens?  Think how much money they'd save!  After all, people just want to get from point A to point B real cheaply, right?  

Let the attacks and obfuscations from the same few people begin!

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Posted by schlimm on Monday, October 21, 2013 9:13 AM

NKP guy

I rode several fine trains in France, Germany, and Poland in May.  

I'm sorry, but the food experience (one can hardly say dining) is very disappointing.  In Germany's Bord-ello food cars the food is prepackaged and heated by micro-wave ovens.  It is, in my opinion, not "very good" at all.  In fact, it bears a distinct relationship to Amtrak's cafe cars on the east coast.  You have to take your little cardboard box of burning hot food and your beverage back to your seat a few cars away, not a very happy experience.  And, sorry, sitting in your seat to eat is also a less-than-ideal way to eat, very akin to the airlines.  In fact, the entire experience is too similar to the airline food experience.

If this is some guys' idea of a great way to offer food service to all-day passengers, then I couldn't disagree more.  Poland still offers dining cars with tables, waiters, etc and some fresh foods prepared on board.  I will mention that one can chat at these tables and not eat in the silence that accompanies taking the microwaved food back to one's seats.  

If the bord-ellos are the way several contributors here think is the way of the future, then I tremble for Amtrak.  Frankly, getting rid of dining cars is the dumbest idea I've read here.  Raise the prices, tax me more, but give patrons a decent, civilized way to refresh themselves as we travel.  Do you really think that further aping of airline practices will result in a happier travel experience for the public?  

Are some contributors here interested in better service for patrons, or just "saving money?"  These arguments remind me of the ones used to justify slashing social security or medicare:  We have to savage it now so that we might not have to savage it later.  Dumb.

And by the way, add B&O-C&O to the list of railroads that tried vending machines on their trains (Washington Night Express/Chicago Night Express) with a resounding thud.

Why not ask cruise ships to try vending machines or microwave ovens?  Think how much money they'd save!  After all, people just want to get from point A to point B real cheaply, right?  

Let the attacks and obfuscations from the same few people begin!

Your snide, negative remarks are out of place.  In a Bordrestaurant (NOT Bord-ello) car on an ICE train on DB in Germany, there are tables seating various numbers of patrons (up to 24) with table cloth.  If you are in first class, you have the option of service at your seat.  Sounds like you got your food in the Bordbistro.   I ride German, Italian and other European trains every year and have done so for over 40 years.

You want to save dining cars on Amtrak? Fine.  Then raise the prices and have sleeper patrons pay for their food.  Some of us believe the function of Amtrak is primarily to provide good transportation where passenger rail service is rational.  Subsidizing infrastructure, and operating costs while new services are developed makes sense.  Subsidized meals does not.   Your remarks on cruise ships are self-condemning.

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, October 21, 2013 11:10 AM

NKP guy
If the bord-ellos are the way several contributors here think is the way of the future, then I tremble for Amtrak.  Frankly, getting rid of dining cars is the dumbest idea I've read here.  Raise the prices, tax me more, but give patrons a decent, civilized way to refresh themselves as we travel.  Do you really think that further aping of airline practices will result in a happier travel experience for the public?  

We have a $900 billion dollar deficit and you want a subsidized "happy experience" for Amtrak passengers?  Let's go all the way, then.  How about five star, seven course meals for all LD train riders for free!  After all, it would only be a  penny or two more per taxpayer per day.

Why not ask cruise ship to use vending machines?  Because they cover their costs! (and they do feed most of their patrons via buffet - not table service)  Remember when Silver Service had buffet-diners? (but still required a server to carry your tray for you?)

Do dinner trains cook food on board?  Why should Amtrak?

P.S. snarky is as snarky does.  It's only fair.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, October 21, 2013 1:29 PM

I asked about overseas for information.  But Amtrak can look to its own Acela experience to both reduce costs and still provide a "happy experience."

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, October 21, 2013 1:59 PM

daveklepper

I asked about overseas for information.  But Amtrak can look to its own Acela experience to both reduce costs and still provide a "happy experience."

+1

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Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, October 21, 2013 5:47 PM

NKP guy

Are some contributors here interested in better service for patrons, or just "saving money?"  These arguments remind me of the ones used to justify slashing social security or medicare:  We have to savage it now so that we might not have to savage it later.  Dumb.

And by the way, add B&O-C&O to the list of railroads that tried vending machines on their trains (Washington Night Express/Chicago Night Express) with a resounding thud.

Why not ask cruise ships to try vending machines or microwave ovens?  Think how much money they'd save!  After all, people just want to get from point A to point B real cheaply, right?  

Let the attacks and obfuscations from the same few people begin!

I am interested in a 21st Century eating experience vs a taxpayer subsidized nostalgia that is losing money despite the subsidy.     Again I am not sure why we are looking overseas for the example.    We have a decent example right here on this continent with the Rocky Mountaineer Food Service Model.    They don't seem to have a problem  BUT they do not attempt to prepare from scratch either.      Most of their dining is prepackaged food prepared off the train and delivered in reheatable portions.    They do very little on board preparation other than assembly.    

They manage to deliver a food service experience superior to that of Amtrak.

Amtrak which inherited it's model from the private railroads has not made a whole lot of changes to it since 1972.     Why we still have 12 open and union staffed commissaries is beyond any rational explanation.    I could see the 12 commissaries if the Amtrak long distance network was thousands of trains a day but alas, it is only........what?  10-15?     That's almost a one to one relationship.

Lets not fool ourselves that Amtrak uses the European Model but disguises it via assembly on the first level out of sight of passengers.    Very little of what you eat on Amtrak is prepared on board from scratch.   It is all loaded in reheatable packaging. disassembled from that packaging and then reassembled back onto various pieces of serving plates.     Somewhat like Rocky Mountaineer execept that Amtrak starts with an inferior reheatable packaged product to begin with, makes matters worse with overstaffing the diner car.    Then tops it all off by some really out of date ordering system that uses paper and carbon copies............never to be data entry into a service computer anywhere.     Then at the end of the meal they collect all the paper and carbons and sort by protein source (fish, beef, poultry, etc) and try to make sense of what was consumed at the last meal in a vain attempt to project for the next meal.      Who runs a restaurant service that way?     What privately run railway ran their dining car service that way?     This is an Amtrak bastardization of the dining car experience.     It really does need to be cleaned up and brought into the 21st Century before Amtrak can hope to stop losing money on it.     I would prefer it's replacement to be better than what they have now.           Which I think is doable at the break even or better level.

I'm not going to fling my hands in the air and make ridiculous statements at how it has never been done before, it will never break even, etc, etc.     Because it is my taxes being poured into this monstrosity that we have now.Cool

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Posted by dakotafred on Monday, October 21, 2013 7:10 PM

CMStPnP

This is an Amtrak bastardization of the dining car experience.     It really does need to be cleaned up and brought into the 21st Century before Amtrak can hope to stop losing money on it.     I would prefer it's replacement to be better than what they have now.           Which I think is doable at the break even or better level.

I'm not going to fling my hands in the air and make ridiculous statements at how it has never been done before, it will never break even, etc, etc.     Because it is my taxes being poured into this monstrosity that we have now.Cool

 
 
There is some serious hyperventilating going on here. Who can seriously call Amtrak a "monstrosity"? With its .0005 percent share of the federal budget -- $1.5 billion out of $3.5 trillion, or one-tenth of one-half of 1 percent?
 
The monsters of our budget, as any honest person will admit, are our "entitlements," whose growth is at once sacred and unbridled. At the same time, they buy us so very little beyond creature comforts ... for the entitled. The kinds of things that used to distinguish us -- our infrastructure, the space program, our national parks, to name only three -- languish.
 
The Amtrak subsidy is dear to my heart as one federal expenditure that buys, at exceedingly modest cost, an actual product that is useful to the public at large as well as having special meaning to a country that realized its continental potential because of it.
 
Everybody has a right to his opinion, but those who would harp on that modest cost surely make an odd fit with this forum ... especially when their "cure" is kill.  
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Posted by schlimm on Monday, October 21, 2013 8:57 PM

CMStPnP
Lets not fool ourselves that Amtrak uses the European Model but disguises it via assembly on the first level out of sight of passengers.    Very little of what you eat on Amtrak is prepared on board from scratch.   It is all loaded in reheatable packaging. disassembled from that packaging and then reassembled back onto various pieces of serving plates.  

The method for getting the food is not the problem.  It is, as you say, inferior food prepared at an uncompetive high cost in those numerous, overstaffed commissaries, and prepared in overstaffed galleys, coupled with a totally out of date method of inventory.  And to make matters worse, we are expected to pay taxes to subsidize this mess.  It is not the amount of money.  It is the principle.  

As far as overseas goes, the food on the DB Bord Restaurants is much tastier than the stuff on Amtrak.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

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Posted by ecoli on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 10:46 AM

Sam1

Five years to eliminate the losses on its food and beverage services?  Wow!  It is a good thing Amtrak does not have to play in a competitive market.  Can you image McDonald's or Chili's saying that it will eliminate the losses on its restaurants in five years?  A business, especially a so-called established business, does not get that much time to turn around its losses.

I thought I'd check the veracity of the last sentence of that paragraph. The financial press releases from American Airlines are available at http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=117098&p=quarterlyearnings. They show annual losses for 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012, at which point American declared bankruptcy and (probably thanks to the ability to apply cramdowns to its vendors, creditors, and employees courtesy of the bankruptcy laws) started showing a profit. (For one of those years, the press release trumpets an annual "net profit" excluding "special items" but a loss overall. I'm going to be a curmudgeon and say that a loss is a loss.)

Yet American Airlines is still around, and is still considered valuable enough that US Airways is fighting the US Justice department in court to be allowed to merge with American. So I would say that contrary to the assertion above, an established business does get 5 years to turn around its losses.

I don't contend this should make us happy that Amtrak's timeline is so long, just that there's a disconnect between reality and slogans about the invariable wonderfulness of private corporations.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:04 AM

There has not been a single post IMHO that can show that a change in the food service to a no loss  position would not cause an increase in the total loss of a route by the loss of certain  passengers ?  That includes the NEC ?  What is needed is a cost analysis of each route of food cost losses that then are translated into number of passenger or more accurate RPMs needed  to cover those losses ?

SAM1 ?

 

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:09 PM

blue streak 1

There has not been a single post IMHO that can show that a change in the food service to a no loss  position would not cause an increase in the total loss of a route by the loss of certain  passengers ?  That includes the NEC ?  What is needed is a cost analysis of each route of food cost losses that then are translated into number of passenger or more accurate RPMs needed  to cover those losses ?

SAM1 ?

 

The original post was simply remarking that whereas Amtrak wasn't changing their food service over to vending machines, stuff-in-a-sack box meals, MRE's, K-rations, letting the passenger out and having them forage in the forest and eat bugs and snakes, or microwaving pre-plated meals and serving them on plastic plates, or anymore than they are already doing, that Amtrak was going to simply "manage" their food service a little more carefully, dunno, see that employees don't "take" (gasp!) stuff or whatever.

How this has everyone upset.  This is caving in to the terrorist tactics of Rep. Mica!  This will end Amtrak as we know it!  Amtrak passengers will starve!  Amtrak passenger will be forced to ride the bus where they will have to eat hot dogs from one of those Mini-Mart sausage warmers in contravention with international treaties against War Crimes.

Oh, the Humanity!  Someone (Amtrak) wants to run their food service more efficiently.  People will burst into flames and have to leap from upper windows of Superliner cars!

OK, don't run Amtrak efficiently.  Just spend whatever (public) money it takes to provide a Civilized Transportation Option (actually, airlines offer First Class, it costs more money yes, but the few times I have been upgraded, it is quite thoroughly pleasant.)

Let's bring back 10-6 sleepers, 50-seat "chair cars", proper Vista Domes rather than the Superliner Lounges that don't let you see out front, proper E-units for the Art Deco Streamliner look rather than those goofy Vergara Genesis Diesels.  Let's bring back steam heat and axle-powered A/C units (or steam ejector in the desert Southwest, and we have to be careful about interchanging train cars).

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?

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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:26 PM

blue streak 1

There has not been a single post IMHO that can show that a change in the food service to a no loss  position would not cause an increase in the total loss of a route by the loss of certain  passengers ?  That includes the NEC ?  What is needed is a cost analysis of each route of food cost losses that then are translated into number of passenger or more accurate RPMs needed  to cover those losses ?

SAM1 ?

 

There's not been a single post that shows it will, either!  Smile

But, if the passenger experience is equal or better and the cost is less, how can it not help rather than hurt?

There HAVE  been many suggestions by many people of plausible ways to improve both the cost and quality of the food and service.

For starters, don't cook on the train!  It reduces the throughput in the diner as people have to sit and wait for their meal to be cooked, instead of being served.  The meals aren't any better than what you get at Applebees, and I've had food served to me on the train that's been tepid.  I'd be hard pressed to say that the meals I've had on the CZ, Autotrain and Crescent were much better than the ones I've had on Lufthansa.

Go to self-serve as much as possible.  I don't need an attendant to get me a can of soda, a bag of chips, a pack of M&Ms and a pre-packaged deli sandwich.  I can do that myself.  Let the attendant do higher value work.

Automating the sales and inventory system is one think Amtrak is trying.  That will allow sales to start before the train departs and continue right to when it stops....without a leaky cash drawer!

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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