daveklepper I think I have gone on record as agreeing with Fred Frailey that the most promising way to eliminate or sharply reduce food losses is by applying the Acela food concept to LD trains. This is not maintaining the status quo. And indeed, vending machines may be appropriae for some trains, specifically one-night overnighters, more appropirate possibly for the Cardinal and the Lake Shore than the CZ or SWC.
I think I have gone on record as agreeing with Fred Frailey that the most promising way to eliminate or sharply reduce food losses is by applying the Acela food concept to LD trains. This is not maintaining the status quo. And indeed, vending machines may be appropriae for some trains, specifically one-night overnighters, more appropirate possibly for the Cardinal and the Lake Shore than the CZ or SWC.
Vending machines are used on regional/short-LD trains in Europe and from what I hear with a so-so result. Yes, you can get something to drink/food (IF the machine works, which is often a problem on trains - something about the moving and shaking), but it's the bare minimum concept.
I agree that the Acela food concept should be extended to LD trains and I think it could work quite well there.
I am truly not asking for the "good, old days" when everything was made from scratch on board.
schlimm CJtrainguy The system generated a negative of $350K/annual in the old system. The new vending machine revenue averages $2700 gross, $700 net per month. I must assume that is per vending machine. So how many vending machines are there? If the $2700 gross take per month is for all the vending machines on the train, that would seem to suggest that maybe riders are finding food elsewhere, because that's doesn't appear to be a very high number. In that case, vending machines would seem to be a lousy food solution. If NCDOT food service went from losing $350K per year to a small profit, how do you figure that "a lousy food solution?"
CJtrainguy The system generated a negative of $350K/annual in the old system. The new vending machine revenue averages $2700 gross, $700 net per month. I must assume that is per vending machine. So how many vending machines are there? If the $2700 gross take per month is for all the vending machines on the train, that would seem to suggest that maybe riders are finding food elsewhere, because that's doesn't appear to be a very high number. In that case, vending machines would seem to be a lousy food solution.
The system generated a negative of $350K/annual in the old system. The new vending machine revenue averages $2700 gross, $700 net per month. I must assume that is per vending machine. So how many vending machines are there?
If the $2700 gross take per month is for all the vending machines on the train, that would seem to suggest that maybe riders are finding food elsewhere, because that's doesn't appear to be a very high number. In that case, vending machines would seem to be a lousy food solution.
If NCDOT food service went from losing $350K per year to a small profit, how do you figure that "a lousy food solution?"
Schlimm, please chill. I was pointing out that there was not enough information given originally for one to correctly compare the old status with the new status, because nothing was said about the size of the operation at either stage. So I simply can't tell if $2700 gross with a $700 profit per month is the entire operation or just one vending machine. Seems to me that would make a little tiny bit of difference.
If the entire volume now is $2700/month, doesn't it seem odd that in the old scheme the loss was $29+K/month ($350K/12). We simply don't have enough info to draw any real conclusions.
I said the new plan with vending machines might be a lousy solution because it at first glance doesn't appear they are selling anything much. Maybe they should be removed entirely and the space used for revenue generating seats.
Those of you who seem to want to maintain the status quo vis a vis food service can say all you want, but it is a federal law that requires Amtrak to eliminate its losses from food service soon. Given the fact that most of that loss is from diners on LD services, clearly continuing operations as they are is not a possibility. Change will happen.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
YOu are discussing basicaly a corridor service, not LD
CJtrainguy Phoebe Vet Research and passenger surveys led NCDOT to switch to self-service vending machines for food and beverage service. Based on recent analysis, vending machine revenue averages about $2,700 per month, while the average monthly bill for supplies, maintenance and depreciation totals around $2,000 per month. Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/11/28/4503841/ncdot-rail-division-honored-for.html#storylink=cp The system generated a negative of $350K/annual in the old system. The new vending machine revenue averages $2700 gross, $700 net per month. I must assume that is per vending machine. So how many vending machines are there? If the $2700 gross take per month is for all the vending machines on the train, that would seem to suggest that maybe riders are finding food elsewhere, because that's doesn't appear to be a very high number. In that case, vending machines would seem to be a lousy food solution.
Phoebe Vet Research and passenger surveys led NCDOT to switch to self-service vending machines for food and beverage service. Based on recent analysis, vending machine revenue averages about $2,700 per month, while the average monthly bill for supplies, maintenance and depreciation totals around $2,000 per month. Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/11/28/4503841/ncdot-rail-division-honored-for.html#storylink=cp
For example, you can get a mushroom Swiss burger (includes fries) at Chili's for $8.99 + 1.00-2.15 for most beverages. So for around $13.00, including tip, no tax, you can get a meal that is not fast food. It is popular and pretty tasty for most folks. On the Capital Ltd, the Angus burger with cheese (potato chips, no fries) and water or soft drink is $12.75, tip included. So the price charged patrons is the same, but the operation loses ~$70 million annually. Why? Because it is in a railroad car? It pays no property taxes, directly or in rent. It pays minimal utilities. Food and alcohol licenses? It has a very limited menu. Even though the staff is pretty small, the labor charges must be the variable, IMO Though from 2006, . the Amtrak Working Group report, and it said that "Amtrak food service employees are paid 3.5 times the amount paid to the equivalent U.S. restaurant employee [being] compensated more than $54,000 annually, while comparably skilled food service workers are compensated $14,450 to $15,835."
While i believe the pay scale of US food service workers cited is abominably low, paying $54 K seven years ago, more today, sounds terribly high.
How about approaching the food service from a different angle?
1. Ask the question, "What chain restauraant offers an acceptable selection of food items that can be adapted to the commissary/reheat routine?" Or as Oltmann and possibly others suggested, why not simply have that chain operate the food service.
2. Look at that restaurant's menu and see what they charge for common items, such as a hamburger/cheeseburger (optional, with fries plus beverage). Compare that with the current Amtrak price.
Modified: Thursday, Nov. 28, 20
RALEIGH, N.C. The Rail Division of the N.C. Department of Transportation is touting a move which feeds passengers on its Raleigh-to-Charlotte train while saving money.
Until 2002, NCDOT offered traditional café-style food and beverage service on its Piedmont train, including a café car with lounge and booth seating and a fully-equipped galley.
However, that arrangement cost NCDOT approximately $350,000 per year after sales revenues were applied to total labor, product and maintenance costs.
Research and passenger surveys led NCDOT to switch to self-service vending machines for food and beverage service. Based on recent analysis, vending machine revenue averages about $2,700 per month, while the average monthly bill for supplies, maintenance and depreciation totals around $2,000 per month.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
daveklepperAt the same time, ACY showed that dining cars cannot come close to breaking even unless they have multiple servings with reasonably full seating at each. So I propose the coach passengers as well as sleeper passengers have meals as part of the ticket on long distance trains. This may raise the price of coach tickets, but actually may raise patronage when people figiure in the total cost of the trip, if at the same time the costs to privde the meals can be reduced while quality is retained.
Disagree with you on the point of making the meals included in everyones fare. I think it has to stay pay for meal in addition to the ticket. Once you make it automatic then Amtrak has no reason to monitor quality because they get the money regardless of quality of the meal. Additionally, Passengers have no way to measure value because they cannot see the price breakout of the meals.
At the same time, ACY showed that dining cars cannot come close to breaking even unless they have multiple servings with reasonably full seating at each. So I propose the coach passengers as well as sleeper passengers have meals as part of the ticket on long distance trains. This may raise the price of coach tickets, but actually may raise patronage when people figiure in the total cost of the trip, if at the same time the costs to privde the meals can be reduced while quality is retained. If people don't like Amtrak service, there is always the bus. Corridor Amtrak service has a responsibility to reduce congrestion, but the mission of LD trains is varied and different, promoting tourism, giving handicapped and elderly adequate access to the country, providing backup and emergency travel, and serving isolated communities, particulary in winter, that lack other passenger service. Except for possibly the last mission, there is no need for Amrak to offer the lowest cost ground transportation, but rather provide a high quality service that is priced reasonably for the service offered. To me, hgh quality service includes providing appetizing and nuitricious meals, not necessary five star gourmet.
Maybe we can get together on this. I again asked ACY to sample Acela first class. I agree with Fred. I had experience (lots of it) with both regular 1st class Metroliner meals and with special Kosher both on Metroliner and LD trains, and I definitely agree with Fred on this.
Others have the same perspective on LD dining services, including Boardman. Here is a Fred Frailey article. Note that almost ALL of the food service $74 mil. loss is on the LD trains.
A hurrah for the Republican congressman from suburban Orlando and frequent Amtrak critic. Maybe I need to revise my opinion of the man (for what I said about Mica in July, go here). Amtrak has pledged to end its food service losses, which amounted to $74 million in fiscal 2013, within the next five years. And you can thank Mica for prodding Amtrak toward this announcement.
Mica, chairman of the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure until this term, has been on Amtrak’s case for a couple of years to reduce its food service losses. He’s held hearings and, frankly, been downright ugly and obnoxious about it. I attributed his behavior to grandstanding for the folks back in his district (he was seriously challenged for the Republican nomination by a tea party candidate in 2012). And frankly, I thought the food service loss was a cost of doing business and that the economics of it couldn’t be improved much more.
It turns out, according to Amtrak president Joe Boardman, that the dining cars on long-distance trains account for virtually all of that $74 million loss. The cafe cars used on short-distance trains virtually break even. So if you can eliminate that loss, you have lowered the deficits of the long distance trains by $74 million. What’s not to like about that?
Left unsaid is how that loss will be erased. Yes, the press release listed a few initiatives, but the only one that impresses me as having much potential is for cashless sales in the dining and cafe cars; I’ve heard that when airlines went to payment for food and beverage by credit or debit card only, receipts went up typically by 15 percent. Figure that one out.
More likely, Amtrak will have to rethink its whole dining car service. The model it already has for this is the meal service in the Acela first class cars. The first class passenger has a choice of four entrees at each meal. All are precooked and reheated in the galley of the car—no cooks, no spoilage. Turn up your nose at it, but the meals (if a bit on the skimpy side) taste fine to me and not like they’d just been microwaved to death. These dishes on the Acela, by the way, are referred to by Mica as gourmet dining.— Fred W. Frailey
Follow the money.
Tom
ecoli CMStPnP I think you should read the fine print in the report. The commissaries are owned by Amtrak, Amtrak pays a contractor to manage them, which only frees up a few Amtrak Management positions. That does not mean they are making money or that there is no expense to Amtrak beyond the contract to manage fee. The losses from operation are passed back to Amtrak. Many of Aramark's customers (corporate cafeterias, universities, senior living facilities, etc) own their own facilities, so Amtrak is not unusual in that regard. Could you cite a source for your statement that contracting out the commissaries "only frees up a few Amtrak Management positions"? The Amtrak inspector general report (http://www.amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/oig-a-2014-001_0.pdf) states that when the contracting began in 1999, Amtrak paid severance to 330 union members who were laid off.
CMStPnP I think you should read the fine print in the report. The commissaries are owned by Amtrak, Amtrak pays a contractor to manage them, which only frees up a few Amtrak Management positions. That does not mean they are making money or that there is no expense to Amtrak beyond the contract to manage fee. The losses from operation are passed back to Amtrak.
I think you should read the fine print in the report. The commissaries are owned by Amtrak, Amtrak pays a contractor to manage them, which only frees up a few Amtrak Management positions. That does not mean they are making money or that there is no expense to Amtrak beyond the contract to manage fee. The losses from operation are passed back to Amtrak.
Many of Aramark's customers (corporate cafeterias, universities, senior living facilities, etc) own their own facilities, so Amtrak is not unusual in that regard. Could you cite a source for your statement that contracting out the commissaries "only frees up a few Amtrak Management positions"? The Amtrak inspector general report (http://www.amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/oig-a-2014-001_0.pdf) states that when the contracting began in 1999, Amtrak paid severance to 330 union members who were laid off.
Actually, Amtrak is unusual in that regard in that the commissaries are operated apart from the trains in seperate facilities. The examples you cite, most are operated out of a integrated with the rest of the facilities.......onsite cafeteria in which subsidized food service is considered a benefit or perk the facilities are part of a larger facility and most of the overhead is covered by the other uses. In Amtraks case it is a "for profit" service line as mandated by Congress. These are stand alone commissaries which have no other use than to prepare food and Amtrak pays the overhead. It's great they cut staff by 330, it still does not mean they are not losing their shirts on the operation or contracting out of the service. Still don't know how you get a $2 loss on a $6 hot dog just via onboard service personell...............do you? I could hand carry the ingredients and get a better return than that. Obviously that is comming from the Commissary operation primarily.
This thread has gone on for 20 pages now, and I have found it interesting. However, if the thread title was changed to "Railroad to End Food Losses" it could have been started anytime in the last 100 years, and I suspect that situation will prevail so long as trains are operated for more than commuter distances.
ecoli CMStPnP I don't know how those commissaries can ever break even supporting just one or two long distance trains as some of them do. I would expect the commissaries are a large part of the loss but again I don't have any financial breakdown. According to the GAO report (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-112hhrg75420/pdf/CHRG-112hhrg75420.pdf) the commissaries have been operated by contractors (Dobbs, Gate Gourmet, and now Aramark) since 1999. Aramark is an enormous company which presumably realizes substantial economies of scale. Their corporate web site talks about customers who wouldn't appear to do a large volume at any one site (company cafeterias, "senior living" facilities, etc.) Amtrak wouldn't seem to differ from such customers in volume, although Amtrak obviously differs in other ways.
CMStPnP I don't know how those commissaries can ever break even supporting just one or two long distance trains as some of them do. I would expect the commissaries are a large part of the loss but again I don't have any financial breakdown.
I don't know how those commissaries can ever break even supporting just one or two long distance trains as some of them do. I would expect the commissaries are a large part of the loss but again I don't have any financial breakdown.
According to the GAO report (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-112hhrg75420/pdf/CHRG-112hhrg75420.pdf) the commissaries have been operated by contractors (Dobbs, Gate Gourmet, and now Aramark) since 1999. Aramark is an enormous company which presumably realizes substantial economies of scale. Their corporate web site talks about customers who wouldn't appear to do a large volume at any one site (company cafeterias, "senior living" facilities, etc.) Amtrak wouldn't seem to differ from such customers in volume, although Amtrak obviously differs in other ways.
Its the same type of deal if you hire a contractor to manage an apartment building you own. You are asked to pay the expenses and upkeep, the contractor just manages the maintenence and renters that apply for a lease. You swallow the annual loss if the contractor cannot find enough people to rent.
Amtrak needs to sell the commissaries, lock stock and barrel. Perhaps this contract to manage is a first step. If it was me though I would have sold these commissaries back in the 1980's. No idea why Amtrak is hanging onto them.
Look at the $6 cost to produce a hot dog that it costs Amtrak and the $4 Amtrak gets from selling it. Where is that $6 cost comming from? It's not the cost of the Chef popping it into the oven............it's the cost of production from the commissary primarily.
Is it just me, or is it unnerving to see someone with the handle "ecoli" commenting on food service. J/K
ACYIn our current wine tastings, wine is dispensed one glass at a time, between 3pm and 4pm, while the boarding process is finishing up, and the auto carriers are being attached.
A really good idea that works really well! You get more customer good will from doing this than it could possibly cost.
The wine served is similar to what you can get for $10 for the 1.5 L bottle at supermarket, and is served as "house wine" at $5-7 a glass at restaurants. Cheap to do. Has high value. Can it be done elsewhere?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Didn't know that. It sounds good for the Starlight because it presents an opportunity for revenue. It probably wouldn't work on the Auto Train because the legal dept. says we can't sell liquor on the A-T in the morning because the Company obviously knows people are going to claim their cars in the morning and drive. They want to be sure we don't give any passenger an excuse for suing us for contributing to their misuse of alcohol in the morning, The logical conclusion seems to be that we shouldn't be selling full bottles because they might keep it overnight and drink it in the morning. Yes, I know lots of stores sell full bottles of wine to people who get in their cars and drive away with it and MIGHT drink it on the way home; and there was a time when a bottle of wine was given to the owner of the last car unloaded, as a consolation prize of sorts. But I think the current thinking of the legal dept. would be to avoid the legal risk, with the attendant bad publicity. It's pretty stupid, but that's the kind of litigious society we live in.
In our current wine tastings, wine is dispensed one glass at a time, between 3pm and 4pm, while the boarding process is finishing up, and the auto carriers are being attached. One of the sleeper diner staff conducts the tasting, then closes it at 4pm to start dinner preparations. Actual sale of wine splits in the lounge car is not a very big business, but it possibly could be.
It is more than three years since I rode the Coast Starlight, but full bottles of wine were sold at the wine tastings, and the wine was from West Coast wineries, and it was bottled for Amtrak.
Johnny
CMStPnP:
It's good to see that we've found areas where we can agree.
As you say, "the real business purpose of most wine tastings are to sell wine." Our lounge cars and diners don't have a means of selling the wines at the tastings because the only wines that can be actually sold are the usual splits, which are not the same product as the one being tasted. When the wine tastings started, the wineries of the Commonwealth of Virginia provided the wines at little or no cost to Amtrak, so that people might want to stop in the Lorton area and buy some locally produced wine at the end of their trip. The arrangement with the Virginia wineries ended for some reason that was never explained to me, and the wines we now provide may be from any State or country that produces wine. As far as I know, these are paid for through ticket revenue. So the original plan has probably been changed so much that it probably isn't practical or prudent to continue it.
I would not look at it that Amtrak onboard employees are paid too much, quite the contrary. Agree that is the wrong way to approach the issue. If it were me I would look at more onboard revenue services that onboard employees could use to help close the gap. I would not eliminate all freebies either, I think that's stupid. For example, popcorn on movie night? That should be complimentary, the cost of making popcorn is so cheap, cost for cleanup of course because nobody can eat it without tracking it all over the damn carpeting. Wine and Cheese? Yeah not sure the Wine is of the quality where that would be a real money loser for Amtrak, if it is just a tasting the question is though.........does Amtrak sell bottles of wine at these events to passengers to take home with them? Maybe they should try to sell the wine after the tasting? The real business purpose of most wine tastings are to sell the wine..........not just to have the event for pleasure, IMO.
However, still stand firm on Amtrak getting rid of the food commissaries entirely where train frequency does not financially support them via economies of scale. I don't know how those commissaries can ever break even supporting just one or two long distance trains as some of them do. I would expect the commissaries are a large part of the loss but again I don't have any financial breakdown.
Yep. Saw that one, too. I give both reports about the same credence. It's true that economies can and should be realized. But these reports just don't show the way to do it.
"For every complex question, there is a simple solution .........which is wrong."
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-14/amtrak-serving-free-wine-to-steak-loses-millions-on-food.html
http://www.goerie.com/article/20131115/NEWS02/311159852/Authorities-probe-reported-hanging-at-GE-plant
ACY The report is unabashedly biased against the notion that ordinary people should be able to make a decent living. They actually suggest that the $7.75 per hour (with no benefits) that is paid to contract workers on the Downeaster (and other similar operations) could provide a model for future o.b.s. pay scales. I have a different view. I think it is scandalous that anybody, in 2013, could actually suggest that anybody can live on such a paltry sum, and it is absurd to think a stable, reliable, committed work force can be maintained that way. Workers who are forced to get by on wages like that are just going to qualify for money from the federal government in other ways, such as food stamps etc. Either way, the money has to be provided. I suggest it's better to do it with programs that allow people to maintain some shred of their pride and dignity. Just ask yourself one simple question: Could you live on that?
The report is unabashedly biased against the notion that ordinary people should be able to make a decent living. They actually suggest that the $7.75 per hour (with no benefits) that is paid to contract workers on the Downeaster (and other similar operations) could provide a model for future o.b.s. pay scales. I have a different view. I think it is scandalous that anybody, in 2013, could actually suggest that anybody can live on such a paltry sum, and it is absurd to think a stable, reliable, committed work force can be maintained that way. Workers who are forced to get by on wages like that are just going to qualify for money from the federal government in other ways, such as food stamps etc. Either way, the money has to be provided. I suggest it's better to do it with programs that allow people to maintain some shred of their pride and dignity.
Just ask yourself one simple question: Could you live on that?
Sorry to say it looks like your country will be made up of a few billionaires and a majority making that minimum wage before long. They are making a big deal of this on certain Canadian boards (we have previously been affected by the EMD shutdown in London). My understanding is that it was a woman at the GE locomotive factory in Erie who found out her job was being moved to a non-union factory in the US south. It seems to be a sorry state for the majority of Americans.
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