schlimmFares on NEC between NYP and PHL = .$.58 - 1.65 per mile. Fare between CHI and Fargo = $ .14 - .24 per mile. So Amtrak is charging a premium in the NEC to subsidize the below cost fares for the EB, a typical LD train (not the worst performer). This is not right.
Fares paid are an indication of the value of the service.
NY - PHL by train = valuable!
Fargo - CHI = not valuable! (relatively speaking..)
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmannd Paul Milenkovic Don, this is what I find absolutely amazing. You come along, and you didn't propose some kind of dodgy "Amtrak reform", you merely linked to Amtrak drafting a plan to improve the management of onboard food service. This is something that Amtrak wants to do, apply modern management methods to their dining and cafe cars. And the kind folks who are participating in this forum have run this thread up to, what is it, 5 or 6 pages, arguing the merits of this? This isn't Congress mandating something, this isn't the Heritage Foundation with a crazy idea, this is Amtrak's management, out of their dedication to their jobs, wanting to make food service work better according to some metric, and this is controversial? People are arguing about this? Down the rabbit hole, we go! There aren't any forum restrictions on animal burrows, apparently.
Paul Milenkovic Don, this is what I find absolutely amazing. You come along, and you didn't propose some kind of dodgy "Amtrak reform", you merely linked to Amtrak drafting a plan to improve the management of onboard food service. This is something that Amtrak wants to do, apply modern management methods to their dining and cafe cars. And the kind folks who are participating in this forum have run this thread up to, what is it, 5 or 6 pages, arguing the merits of this? This isn't Congress mandating something, this isn't the Heritage Foundation with a crazy idea, this is Amtrak's management, out of their dedication to their jobs, wanting to make food service work better according to some metric, and this is controversial? People are arguing about this?
Don, this is what I find absolutely amazing.
You come along, and you didn't propose some kind of dodgy "Amtrak reform", you merely linked to Amtrak drafting a plan to improve the management of onboard food service. This is something that Amtrak wants to do, apply modern management methods to their dining and cafe cars.
And the kind folks who are participating in this forum have run this thread up to, what is it, 5 or 6 pages, arguing the merits of this?
This isn't Congress mandating something, this isn't the Heritage Foundation with a crazy idea, this is Amtrak's management, out of their dedication to their jobs, wanting to make food service work better according to some metric, and this is controversial? People are arguing about this?
Down the rabbit hole, we go!
There aren't any forum restrictions on animal burrows, apparently.
Boardman claims that 99 per cent of the food and beverage losses are incurred on the long distance trains. Get rid of the long distance trains, and the problem largely goes away. Get rid of the long distance trains and Amtrak has an operating profit. Therefore, although it is pushing the outside of the topical scope envelope, I think some discussion of the correlation between food and beverage losses and long distance trains is within scope.
Your correct. We have strayed like sheep. So here is the core question with respect to Amtrak's food and beverage service.
Amtrak has had more than 40 years to get it right. It has not done so. But according to Boardman Amtrak will be on top of it in another five years. What makes anyone believe that another five years is going to see the problem fixed when management has not been able to fix it for forty years.
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein
PNWRMNM schlimm Fares on NEC between NYP and PHL = .$.58 - 1.65 per mile. Fare between CHI and Fargo = $ .14 - .24 per mile. So Amtrak is charging a premium in the NEC to subsidize the below cost fares for the EB, a typical LD train (not the worst performer). This is not right. What is not right and why? Mac
schlimm Fares on NEC between NYP and PHL = .$.58 - 1.65 per mile. Fare between CHI and Fargo = $ .14 - .24 per mile. So Amtrak is charging a premium in the NEC to subsidize the below cost fares for the EB, a typical LD train (not the worst performer). This is not right.
What is not right and why?
Mac
Amtrak is charging what the market will bear, which (I guess) is a Good Thing (tm).
People are willing to pay those seemingly exhorbitant fares in the NEC because they find value in them -- the airline competition, in that market, costs even more and is less convenient and in some instances perhaps slower?
People are paying much lower per-mile fares on the Empire Builder because the airline competition achieves a kind of economy of scale on longer trips (there are costs associated with takeoffs and landings -- each powering up the jet engines to takeoff thrust literally machines off some of the critical turbine blade clearances, so the more miles on a jet flight, the cheaper it is per mile).
The thing behind the Midwest Regional Rail Initiative and HrSR is that with signal upgrades you could once again run the speeds of the old steam Milwaukee Road Hiawathas and the Pennsy T-1's roaring along the Fort Wayne Division in the Midwest flatlands. Using lighweight Talgo consists with Diesel power, you could get much better acceleration than the heavier steam-powered consists and even better those schedules.
The theory is that in the Midwest and without electrification and with the HrSR model, you could get NEC-like schedules and start charging higher fares without breaking the bank on the line upgrades. That the NEC is able to offer a service of sufficient value to charge those fares points a way forward for passenger trains, but that the fares are that high suggests that passenger trains are inherently a high-cost mode, and yet the Midwest plan was to point the way of doing NEC-levels of service on a budget.
The Ohio and Wisconsin segments of the MWRRI, as everyone knows, ran into trouble with the outcome of elections that weren't really about trains whereas the Illinois and Michigan segments moved forward, but the Illinois runs were beset by "freight train interference" as evidence of poor cooperation from the host railroad for "doing this cheaply" (or at that was Rick Harnish's complaint in newsletters I had seen) whereas the Michigan segment is stuck up against "being held hostage" by CSX slow orders until Amtrak buys up more of the line?
What a country and what a concept. Have the trains provide value to the passengers to justify higher fares to pay for their operations while at the same time utilizing existing right-of-ways that once supported world-class record-breaking passenger speeds? The challenge, as always, is in the execution of such plans.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
oltmannd Nice blurb in Railroad News. Gist of it is three year plan to get losses to zero though a series of initiatives the involve technology and just plain paying attention to business. Nearly all the losses are on the LD trains (surely, they charge-back first class "free" meals at menu prices...) Technology will reduce paperwork and time spent by on board personnel and allow them to focus on selling. Also will help with inventory mgt, and control. Will review menus more often to keep things fresh. It seems like Amtrak is slowly waking up. Maybe they don't like being such an easy target for the "antis"?
Nice blurb in Railroad News.
Gist of it is three year plan to get losses to zero though a series of initiatives the involve technology and just plain paying attention to business. Nearly all the losses are on the LD trains (surely, they charge-back first class "free" meals at menu prices...)
Technology will reduce paperwork and time spent by on board personnel and allow them to focus on selling. Also will help with inventory mgt, and control. Will review menus more often to keep things fresh.
It seems like Amtrak is slowly waking up. Maybe they don't like being such an easy target for the "antis"?
Don and Sam1:
Don said : [snip]"...Nearly all the losses are on the LD trains (surely, they charge-back first class "free" meals at menu prices...)..." [snip]
AMTRAK has been in business roughly 40 years (give or take). The problem of loss in their food service has got to be some endemic problem in their system. [My Guess] At one point some time back there was a kerfuffle over some apparent employee theft from their food service revenues(?). NOw that seems NOT to be the problem.(?).
Don's statement referencing the "Free" meals provided ( to The people traveling in the rooms, and sleeping facilities) Makes this seem to be an accounting practice (that may or may not be beneficial) to AMTRAK's Business Model. Would seem to be a simple fix to rework the way those "Free" meals are reported. So it would seem that AMTRAK is getting some benefit to the accounting practice. Otherwise it would have been eliminated some time ago?
If AMTRAK canniot make money providing food service to their'Captive Crowd" why not contract food service out to a company that has expertise in either an airline food service environment or to some company that has expertise in institutional food service environment? But then I would guess the 'Mountain to climb' there is various Union agreement and their comitment to the employees compensation fund ( retirements, etc) . Or you revert back a hundred years or more to the practices of the 19th century or other nations when independent food vendors swarmed travelers with foods of potentially questionable quality.
Go ahead, you East Coasters, Illini, Californians, Washingtonians, Oregonians, et al.:
Scuttle the LD trains the rest of us ride, then see how much help our congressional reps give you with your systems, which also lose money. Most of your states are broke, as opposed to our states in flyover country; let's see how eager, or able, you are to steam your trains all by yourselves.
Bravo, dakotafred!
You speak for me. As an Ohioan and a loyal patron of The Lake Shore Limited, I couldn't agree more.
dakotafred Go ahead, you East Coasters, Illini, Californians, Washingtonians, Oregonians, et al.: Scuttle the LD trains the rest of us ride, then see how much help our congressional reps give you with your systems, which also lose money. Most of your states are broke, as opposed to our states in flyover country; let's see how eager, or able, you are to steam your trains all by yourselves.
Okay. It's a deal. Where do I sign? We got next to nothing here in GA anyway.
NKPGuy
Ohio could have been well on the way to a real passenger rail system, and still could if you elect a decent governor.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Exactly -- there are 19 states between the Mississippi River and the West Coast tier. Discontinue the LD trains and you risk losing votes in the Senate. Combine those with the seven mid South and southern states that would lose service, and you are at more than half of the Senate.
At that point who supplies the funds for new rail equipment, bridges and tunnels? It's more than just Amtrak as your rail transit systems by and large also do not generate sufficient funds to meet their capital needs. By our standards, you already are taxed heavily; are you prepared to raise income, sales and property taxes sufficiently to make up the shortfall?
I suspect the folks at Amtrak can also count votes.
Dakguy201 dakotafred Go ahead, you East Coasters, Illini, Californians, Washingtonians, Oregonians, et al.: Scuttle the LD trains the rest of us ride, then see how much help our congressional reps give you with your systems, which also lose money. Most of your states are broke, as opposed to our states in flyover country; let's see how eager, or able, you are to steam your trains all by yourselves. Exactly -- there are 19 states between the Mississippi River and the West Coast tier. Discontinue the LD trains and you risk losing votes in the Senate. Combine those with the seven mid South and southern states that would lose service, and you are at more than half of the Senate. At that point who supplies the funds for new rail equipment, bridges and tunnels? It's more than just Amtrak as your rail transit systems by and large also do not generate sufficient funds to meet their capital needs. By our standards, you already are taxed heavily; are you prepared to raise income, sales and property taxes sufficiently to make up the shortfall? I suspect the folks at Amtrak can also count votes.
Sure, the political reality of the LD trains and the economic reality of the LD trains are two entirely different animals - which is why they survive.
They are pork - which is the primary food group for Congress.
Their bottom line is awful.
They don't serve much economic purpose.
They don't serve much social purpose.
They aren't much of an engine of social justice.
Their capacity as transportation is tiny.
I would miss them if they go, so I'd really like Amtrak to make the most of the LD routes instead of just propagating the past as if they are some sort of rolling museum or homage to the "good old days".
I suspect counting votes is one thing Amtrak is good at. I don't blame them for their poor stewardship of their enterprise - it's not their fault - it's how they were raised.
But, sometimes you have to rise up from your poor upbringing!
How is trying to improve the performance of food service on the LD trains a ploy to discontinue them? I'm not connecting those dots. Help me out.
samfp1943At one point some time back there was a kerfuffle over some apparent employee theft from their food service revenues(?). NOw that seems NOT to be the problem.(?).
I think that is still part of the problem. They talk about automating the inventory and reporting system. That was the area that was allowing the cheating and stealing. But, they only talk about the positives such as freeing up employee time to be actively selling instead of counting and making sure that all items are properly stocked. It's probably good for morale to accentuate the positive rather than saying "it will make it hard for our employees to steal from us" in public.
samfp1943 If AMTRAK canniot make money providing food service to their'Captive Crowd" why not contract food service out to a company that has expertise in either an airline food service environment or to some company that has expertise in institutional food service environment? But then I would guess the 'Mountain to climb' there is various Union agreement and their comitment to the employees compensation fund ( retirements, etc) .
It's also hard to admit to yourself you're not good at something you've been doing for a long time.
Amtrak has all sorts of labor protection baked into their contracts (mgt had zero incentive not to do so), so I'd bet you're right that it's not a simple thing to contract out food service.
oltmannd samfp1943 If AMTRAK canniot make money providing food service to their'Captive Crowd" why not contract food service out to a company that has expertise in either an airline food service environment or to some company that has expertise in institutional food service environment? But then I would guess the 'Mountain to climb' there is various Union agreement and their comitment to the employees compensation fund ( retirements, etc) . It's also hard to admit to yourself you're not good at something you've been doing for a long time. Amtrak has all sorts of labor protection baked into their contracts (mgt had zero incentive not to do so), so I'd bet you're right that it's not a simple thing to contract out food service.
If I remember correctly President Reagan stood down the air traffic controllers union. And got them to see the world in a different light. Perhaps if Amtrak's management had the same intestinal fortitude, they could get Amtrak's unions to see the need to change.
So at long last this is what is all about. It's not about good food in LD dining cars or the alleged costs. It's about union-busting. "(U)nions to see the need to change." "(S)ee the world in a different light." The clear implication is that unions are the cause of dining car deficits, and that without the unions things would be fine (and those pesky dining cars would make a profit!).
So let's be clear that dining car costs is simply a code term for union-busting.
Ask yourself, what would they have to pay you to be a dining car attendant and really live that life for a career? And even if McDonald's got the franchise to operate a dining car or do food service, remember, they are close to having a union to contend with themselves.
I like unions. They made it possible for me and my family to live a middle-class life for two generations. Do you know what I do with some of that money? I buy Amtrak tickets and enjoy eating in the diner.
In FY12 salaries, wages, and benefits accounted for 50.4 per cent of Amtrak's operating expenses and 70.7 per cent of its revenues. No viable business can sustain these ratios.
Amtrak's unions are part of the problem. They need to be part of the solution. Their members need to be more productive and effective. They need to agree to changes. Almost everyone else in society has had to change. Unions should not be given a free pass.
Being more productive does not mean slashing wages and benefits. But it does mean changing work rules and, in some instances, eliminating marginally productive and unnecessary employees.
If Amtrak were privatized, labor would have to accept new conditions or be out of the game. It is that simple. And rants are not likely to change the outcomes. One of the reasons labor unions have declined is because they failed to grasp the need to change. They dug in their heels. We ain't going to cave into management was a long sung mantra. Bye! Intransigence is a strong motive for management to automate the jobs (may have happened anyway) and move activities to right to work states or overseas.
Sam1In FY12 salaries, wages, and benefits accounted for 50.4 per cent of Amtrak's operating expenses and 70.7 per cent of its revenues.
I would love to see the numbers broken out for LD services and even better, route by route. My strong hunch is that the LD trains are far more labor-intensive than shorter day trains, state corridors, and the NEC, because of sleepers and diners, and thus have even worse numbers.
Contrary to NKP guy's rant, I for one am not anti-union. I am a union man myself, but I am strongly for greater productivity, which is a much broader concept than mere wages and unions. I also favor train services where people live to use them and trains running short enough distances fast enough to be competitive. 1000-2000 miles trains taking 24 to 50 hours just don't cut it in 2013 and frankly haven't since about 1960.
Over a five year period it should be possible for Amtrak to adopt a Sky-Chefs (plus Wilton Caterers for pork-free and Kosher food) approach with redundant Union members relocated within the Amtrak organization, shifted to the caterers, or retired as a natural consequence of their age. The result should be food service on LD's equal to what is now provided on Acela. The time to start putting the program into operation should be NOW.
daveklepper Over a five year period it should be possible for Amtrak to adopt a Sky-Chefs (plus Wilton Caterers for pork-free and Kosher food) approach with redundant Union members relocated within the Amtrak organization, shifted to the caterers, or retired as a natural consequence of their age. The result should be food service on LD's equal to what is now provided on Acela. The time to start putting the program into operation should be NOW.
Just do it! The sooner you start, the sooner you get done, no matter how long and drawn out the process. Something...anything!
NKP guy So at long last this is what is all about. It's not about good food in LD dining cars or the alleged costs. It's about union-busting. "(U)nions to see the need to change." "(S)ee the world in a different light." The clear implication is that unions are the cause of dining car deficits, and that without the unions things would be fine (and those pesky dining cars would make a profit!). So let's be clear that dining car costs is simply a code term for union-busting.
Nonsense. Amtrak is the least likely union-buster on the planet! The problem is, if you don't improve the bottom line of the LD trains to make them more palatable, there might be no LD train union jobs for anyone. Sure, the union employees will get their 5 year protection - or whatever, but then what? McDonalds? Wal-mart? Pep-Boys?
Amtrak does not break out its labor costs by route, or if it does I have not been able to find them. However, a look at the staffing on the long distance trains provides a pretty good insight into the labor intensity of the long distance trains vs. corridor trains.
The Texas Eagle, which I ride within Texas 8 to 10 times per year, has a transition sleeper, three coaches, a dining car, a lounge car, and a sleeper.
The operating crew consists of an engineer, conductor, and trainman (person). The on-board service personnel consist of a coach attendant, who works the transition sleeper when necessary, a sleeping car attendant, a lounge car attendant, and three people in the dining car.
The Eagle operating crews change at least four times, perhaps five, between San Antonio and Chicago. In addition, the engineers change at Austin for the Austin to San Antonio portion of the trip.
Comparatively the Heartland Flyer, which consists of three coaches, one of which has a snack bar in the lower level, runs with an engineer, a conductor, a trainman, and a snack bar attendant.
The TRE trains, which are operated by Herzog, have an engineer and a conductor. Raises a question in my mind why the Texas Eagle needs a trainman in addition to the conductor.
So that works out to 28 to 35 crew for a train taking 32 hours for a 1305 mile run (40.8 mph average). It carries on average ~504 passengers per train run (August 2013). The Heartland Flyer, by contrast, has a crew of 4 per run and carries 117 per train run (Aug 2013). The figures tell the story.
Schlimm,
The figures you cite tell us nothing. Much better would be passenger miles per employee or even better revenue per employee.
The trains lose money like a leaky barrel. These incomplete numbers along with sam1's show how unproductive the workers on the Texas Eagle are.....
Why miles? Has nothing to do with service except LD fans like to use it to obscure the losses per passenger served.
I am not a supporter of passenger trains except in NEC where they provide a reasonably competitive service and keep some people off the highways and out of airports.
Passenger miles is an appropriate metric for the comparison you are trying to make since taking 500 people 1300 miles is far more service than taking 117 each 50 miles. Of course I have skewed the mileage numbers to clarify the point. The truly important economic metric is revenue per employee day, but that is another story.
Actually, your incorrect here. It's Amtrak management responding/reacting to heavy criticism by Congress and a complete threatened subsidy reduction if Amtrak does not respond. This is the third threat in a series from Congress. Amtrak ignored the previous two because there was not any bite behind them. Then Amtrak comes back with this totally unacceptable schedule of a multi-year reduction in cost vs multi-month to satisfy the critics. I don't think it is Amtrak Management being responsible.
NKP guy So at long last this is what is all about. It's not about good food in LD dining cars or the alleged costs. It's about union-busting. "(U)nions to see the need to change." "(S)ee the world in a different light." The clear implication is that unions are the cause of dining car deficits, and that without the unions things would be fine (and those pesky dining cars would make a profit!). So let's be clear that dining car costs is simply a code term for union-busting. Ask yourself, what would they have to pay you to be a dining car attendant and really live that life for a career? And even if McDonald's got the franchise to operate a dining car or do food service, remember, they are close to having a union to contend with themselves. I like unions. They made it possible for me and my family to live a middle-class life for two generations. Do you know what I do with some of that money? I buy Amtrak tickets and enjoy eating in the diner.
Good , so your volunteering to pay the taxpayer related costs letting the rest of us off the hook. Thank you. I'll tell you though, Union or non-Union the largest cost behind any food service operation is the labor. How flexible that labor is to change is the key to the issue is it worth the trouble to change or should we just get rid of it decision. When Amtrak split it's diner in two on the Capitol Limited between a Cafe car and a Dining Car................there was no correpsonding shift in staffing of the Dining car. In essence Amtrak kept it's costs the same but cut it's potential revenue source in half. How this increases effieciency or reduces costs is anyones guess.
PASSENGER MILES IS AN EXCELLENT MEASURE FOR EFFICIENCY. IT IS NOT A PARTICULARLY JUST MEASURE IN MY OPINION FOR FAIRNESS FOR DISTRIBUTION OF SUBSIDIES. IN SOME CASES PER TRAVELER OR PER CITIZEN THAT USE THE SERVICE MIGHT JUST BE MORE JUST.
I THINK COUNTING NEEDED INVESTMENT COSTS, THE NE CORRIDOR IS JUST ABOUT AS SUBSIDIZED AS LONG DISTANCE TRAINS ARE SUBSIDIZED. EVEN MORE SUBSIDIZED THAN SAY THE CHI-MLW CORRIDOR!!! BUT BOTH SEEM ESSENTIAL TO MAKE THE ONLINE CITIIES WORK WELL.
PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS, TECHHICAL REASON
To a large extent, if you are looking the efficiency or productivity of labor for a dining service, what matters is how much staff serves how many patrons over what time period. It's the same as a stationary restaurant.
And if you are looking at efficiency or productivity of labor overall on a train, you should look at labor (number of workers or costs) for the total number of passengers riding over the time elapsed.
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