British Railway Operations

[John Bakeer]

Tulyar,
I take on that I was incorrect about the Deltics being built in Yorkshire (wikipedia has a good write up) and that they were built/ assembled in Lanashire just across the pennines. At the time of their manufacture I was working at Thornbury (EEhave/had a factory there) just outside Bradford where a lot of the electrical bits were made, hence my error.
The Newton-le-Willows site is a sad place, just a few bits of track here and there with the place broken up into industrial units, there was an outfit there re-furbishing old steam boilers (not Loco) when I last visited.
John B.

[Simon Reed]

The English Electric factory in Thornbury has long closed.

It was primarily a component assembly plant but, prior to takeover by EE, was called ***, Kerr and Co. and made trams (streetcars).

As I recall the last operational bit of the once huge English Electric empire was the place inside Queensville curve on the WCML at Stafford; that belonged to GEC last time I looked.

[Murphy Siding]

I started re-reading The Railway Series to my youngest son, age 7. He was curious why all the steam locomotives are built *open* on the back? Why wasn't the engineer's area enclosed? Was it tradition, that the engineer had to be out in the weather? It seems to me, that even the late steam locomotives didn't have enclosures.

[BR60103]

It was a great advance when they put sides on the cabs -- after they put the front sheet on.
Someone referred to a loco as "one of Churchward's bum-freezers". (see if that makes it past the censors).
It was within living memory that a couple of classes of steamers had a cab sort of thing built on the tender for reverse running.
Pneumonia is good for the pension plan.

[John Bakeer]

Among the semi enclosed cab classes were; Britannia, Clan, 5MT 4-6-0,4MT 4-6-0,4MT 2-6-0, 3MT 2-6-0, 2MT 2-6-0, all BR standard designs. I believe one or two pre nationalisation companies tried the enclosed cab (SR, LMS, MR. LNWR, L&Y etc.)
It should be remembered that almost without exception British locomotives were hand fired making a fully enclosed cab impractical, hence the rear of the cab was in fact the front of the tender. Having once travelled on the footplate of a Britannia from Leeds to Huddersfield, I found it was quite draughty. Virtually all classes of modern tank engine had enclosed cabs as they were designed to be bi-directional.
John B.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

Tulyar,
I take on that I was incorrect about the Deltics being built in Yorkshire (wikipedia has a good write up) and that they were built/ assembled in Lanashire just across the pennines. At the time of their manufacture I was working at Thornbury (EEhave/had a factory there) just outside Bradford where a lot of the electrical bits were made, hence my error.
The Newton-le-Willows site is a sad place, just a few bits of track here and there with the place broken up into industrial units, there was an outfit there re-furbishing old steam boilers (not Loco) when I last visited.
John B.

I met a chap who works for what used to be English Electric at Preston on a Portguese railtour a couple of years ago. He said Alstom had not entirely closed Preston. In addition to keeping the Research facility there, he says they've mothballed part of the plant in the hope that if orders pick up they could make traction motors there.

Your point about the plant in Bradford is very pertinent. People often forget that though a car (or a loco!) may be built in one place, often the components are made all over the place. For instance, the Japanese Railways recently purchased some DMU's which were assembled in Japan but their Cummins diesel engines were made in Britain (as were those in the Japanese built DMU's supplied to Irish Rail 10 years ago!

Meanwhile the honour of being the first non-steam preserved loco to work a railtour on our national network fell to a Doncaster product - Southern class 71 electric loco E5001!

[BR60103]

When I saw the class 66 diesels being built in London (Ontario), the cabs were brought in from somewhere else. It's possible that the only bit actually shaped in the plant was the frame.
Incidentally, for testing they added a knuckle (buckeye) coupling to the loco. They had a heavy metal framework that fastened on to the buffer mounting holes.

[Simon Reed]

BR60103 - in later BR days (and in particular Classes 58 and 60) cabs were designed in close consultation with Railway Unions, so the people who actually spent their working day in them could have some comment on their own comfort and safety.

I understand that one of the principal complaints about the early build 66's is the level of noise and vibration in the cab.

I detect a wheel coming full circle here!

[John Bakeer]

To change the drift,
My wife and I need to travel to london (a day trip) to see a family member. I go on line to book a ticket from Stockport (WCML) to Euston, eeek! £204.00. for a 320 mile round trip,=64 pence per mile. The car we have costs 40 pence a mile = £128.00. Or just on the cost of fuel at 97 pence a litre and 53 miles per gallon (4.546 litres to a gallon)= 320/53x4.546x0.97=£12.00. Unfortunately my health means we will need an overnight stay, so add meals and an hotel for the night, say £120.00. So it means we can spend an extra day in the City for £132.00. a saving of £72.00. For you guys over the pond, latest exchange rate- £1.00=$1.87 US. $2.11 Can.
The British Parliamentary Transport Committee has spoken out against the "Exhorbitant" railfares that are driving people off the trains.
As an engineer of close on 50 years experience, I always consulted with operators before purchasing new plant or equipment. After all, to get the best out of man and machine it is essential that they are happy with each other.
John B.

[Murphy Siding]

John: Are the passenger train operators all privately owned, and able to set their own fares, or are there some government agencies involved that effect pricing?

[John Bakeer]

Murphy,
Unfortunately; the answer to your query is yes and no.
When the previous administration privatised the railways, they stitched up the legislation in such a way that it is nie impossible to redress a lot of the bad things about it. My guess (and the opinions of many) is that it was primarily designed as a get rich quick system for the city at the expense of the travelling public. ie. commuters with little alternative means of transport..
John B.

[daveklepper]

I don't understand the train vs. car comparison. If you are not young enough to enjoy a round trip by train in one day, then how can you compare relaxing on the train with the work of driving? Obvioiusly, if you have put in three hours of driving and then gad about London, you are in no shape to put in another three hours to drive home. But if you relax on the train, have breakfast while traveling to save time, at about the same cost as breakast your second morning at the hotel, gad about London, see your family member, and then catch the last train back to Stockport, you don't need to spend money on a Hotel. That is what I would do in your situation, but chason a son gut as the French say, but partdon my spelling. What time does the last train leave London for Stockport anyway? Can one buy a good meal on the London - Stockport service? Or should one "pack a lunch" or "brown bag it"?

[John Bakeer]

Dave,
It's not for myself I make the comparison of costs (train vs car). I bounced this situation off my son putting him in my place as being the more close in age to the typical traveller.
The arithmatic speaks for itself; £200.00 for 2 days including meals compared to £208.00 for a one day gallop with no food. Add to this the time and cost of getting to and from the train(s) against the car being door to door.
When I was in business I had to visit London often, and my home was 10 miles from the station, the car won every time.
John B.
PS. Have you ever bought food on the train?

[Tulyar15]

Food on Briti***rains varies a lot these. Virgin who operate the West Coast Main Line from London Euston to Manchester (Stockport is near Manchester) have a poor reputation food wise while GNER who run the East Coast Main Line (London Kings X - Leeds/Edinburgh) have a good reputation. Great Western who I mostly travel on are somwhere in between. In general meals are only available if travelling first class.

[John Bakeer]

Conclusion;
IT'S A RIP-OFF ON THE TRAIN!
John B.

[daveklepper]

Of course I have fond memories of the British Pullmans and their tea/coffee and biscuts service. And the truly excellent "Full British Breakfast." The last meal I had on British Railways was before privitization and was on an East Coast mainline express, traveling first class, with I think what was called Silver Service, and I ate "place", not sure of spelling, but an excellent fish, not found in the USA or Canada or Israel. I enjoyed the trip and the meal very much, and felt the fare was reasonable for the speed and service I received. If I remember correctly I had booked the meal in advance and traveled only in the dining car, Newcastle - London, and I believe it was nonstop high speed run.

In the USA I generally used Amtrak's food service, however bad or good it was, and tried to make the best of it, and sometimes it was truly excellent. But I had also learned to pack emergency rations, just in case. I NEVER had a problem with VIA or Canadian National or Canadian Pacific. Before Amtrak I had a few bad experiences, the worst being on the railroad I worked for, the Boston and Maine, when an Alco Road Switcher (RS-3, I think), faded red non-reclining seat coach and combine, showed up at the North Cambridge station, first stop out of North Station, for the 3-1/2 evening "Minute Man" trip to Troy, where I was scheduled to take my girl friend attending Skidmore College (Saratoga Springs) to the "Prom", and I had planned on using the timetable noted "buffet meal service" available on the original "Flying Yankee" Budd articulated streamliner normally used on the run. The conductor had pity on me and shared his salted peanuts, and the water cooler did not run dry. But I had truly glorious meals on the great streamliners in their days, including into the Amtrak era on the Southern Crescent and the Rio Grande Zephyr. This was even true after I stopped eating meat and chicken as a half-way house to eating only Kosher (which I observe completely in Israel, but still not eating meat for philisophical reasons). Israel often has a "food trolley" on trains, but service is spotty and the food no better or worse than you would expect from prepacked celophane-wrapped (Kosher) sandwiches of various types, sometimes ice-cream, always coffee, tea, sodas. Double-deck equipment sometimes shows up on the intercity trains although meant for suburban trains, and then one does not expect the food trolley because of the steps up and down to the different levels. Reasonable food can be bought at certain, but not all, of the main stations.

[John Bakeer]

Dave,
Oh! How I miss the Yorkshiire Pullman with an A4 up front and impeccable service, comfort and food behind.
John B.

[Simon Reed]

John - how far in advance are you booking?

With the ALCo being in Peterborough I regularly travel down to work on it (or scratch my head and wonder what I've taken on!)

Booking far enough in advance via The Trainline - http://www.thetrainline.com/ - I can generally do the journey for £20-25 ($45 -48) which is cheaper than I can do it in my car - Citreon Xsara 1.9 Diesel - and certainly cheaper than "our" car which is an Alfa Romeo GTV!

Having said that I'm travelling on my own - obviously if more than one travels the train fare doubles but the fuel cost does'nt.

The other disadvantage about advanced booking is that you're restricted to specified trains.

The plus side - for me - is that I'm generally so weary after 8 hours bashing the ALCo with a big hammer that I appreciate not having to expend the mental effort required to drive back.

The minus side is that I travel back GNER. I'm of what you'd call "wiry" build - ie short, skinny and quite muscular - and I find GNER Mk 4 seats very uncomfortable on the buttocks!

Seriously - try The Trainline - very good bargains.

Dave - an interesting insight on Israeli trains and possibly worthy of another thread! Don't you have CAF built EMD's working the double deck stock?

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed
[
Dave - an interesting insight on Israeli trains and possibly worthy of another thread! Don't you have CAF built EMD's working the double deck stock?

Simon,

Have you been to Israeli recently? I believe they bought some BR Mk 2's some years ago; are these still in use? I gather they have some locos built in Spain at the same plant as the EWS class 67's and which are very similar ie Alsthom body and bogies with EMD engine. Meanwhile both Syria and Iran have Alsthom built diesel locos powered by the Paxman VP185!

[John Bakeer]

Simon,
Is it me? Am I imcompetant? Or am I just unlucky? The Trainline web site for the WCML dosn't give any discounts for Saturday travel that I can find.
News from the NRM, Flying Scotsman is in bits for some major fixes taking about 18 months. The Great Marquess is due to run on the York -Scarborough big steam specials during the summer(?).
Tulyar,
Where can I buy a cosher pork pie? I had a Jewish colleague when I worked in Leeds and we regularly dined on them at the local pub (washed down with Tetley bitter, of course!).
John B.

[daveklepper]

To make this onto a Briti***hread: When I first visited Israel in 1960, the wood and steel (composite) arch roof semi-compartment coaches were still in use on most trains with new EMD B B road-switcher diesels. Nearly all freight cars were typical four wheel cars. Some runs were handled by 5-unit articulated German double-end diesel-mechanicals, which were a already failing (transmission problems mostly) and thus often hauled behind diesels. In 1966 and 1967 steel coaches arrived from Yugoslavia, and many are still running today. These are typical European open salon facing seat coaches. They now have Sutrak air conditioners mounted on their roofs. The second hand Mark 2's came about ten or twelve years later, and were mixed in with the Yugoslavian cars. One complete 2nd generation TEE Budd-liscenced set came from Belgium shortly afterwood and is still in service. This was the type of Budd equipment that inaugurated the first through Paris - Amsterdam electric highspeed service replacing the original TEE diesel trains. I think this is ten cars long, not all in service at one time, and the set kept together and not usually mixed with other cars. The Belgians had already downgraded the seating for higher capacity, but then Israel Railways rebuilt the interiors to conform to other intercity sets, seating configured like the Danish Fexiliner IC-3's which began arriving around 1990 and became the preferred equipment. Then the double-end streamlined B B cab units with EMD diesels arrived, along with single-level pushpulls, then around 2000 the first of the double-deck suburban pushpulls arrived with more B B diesels. Any of this equipment can be used anywhere, although the double deck equipment is intended for the heaviest suburban runs, expecially Tel Aviv - Benyamina, and the old equipment can no longer be used on the so-called restored run to Jerusalem (which only goes as far as a shopping center on the outskirts this moment) because of a lack of run-around track and thus the requirement to use mu (Danish) or push-pull equipment.

[Murphy Siding]

Dave: Are Israeli rail lines built to British loading standards, as far as width and height? Double-deck suburban push-pulls sound like something tall and long.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

Simon,
Tulyar,
Where can I buy a cosher pork pie? I had a Jewish colleague when I worked in Leeds and we regularly dined on them at the local pub (washed down with Tetley bitter, of course!).
John B.

No idea I'm afraid though I'd have thought there must be a Jewish quarter in Manchester. I seem to remember reading somewhere that at one time the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway even printed timetables and other info in Jewish.

One of my great-great grandfathers was a Jewish immigrant to England but that's my only connection with Israel. (Apart from my paternal grandfather serving there in WW1).

[daveklepper]

The British built the standard gauge lines in Israel to European clearances, not British Isle clearances. The first railroad in the Holy Land was built by the Navon and Freumkin failies who got permission fromt he Turkish government, and it was a 1.1 meter gauge line Jaffa - Jerusalem, converted to standard by the British. The British built lines now are about 35% of the total system. The commuter double-deck equipment is practically identacle to similar equipment in Germany or France. After the first Danish IC-3's were obtained older equipment had interiors remodeled to match and new equipment from then on also matched, including the suburban double-deckers. I've never seen double-stacking containers.

You can get a lot of information by visiting: www.israrail.org.il (or .copm.il?)

[John Bakeer]

My maternal grandmother married a 'Gentile' (Catholic) and was consequently ostracised. So much for religious tolerance.
Did they cut an inch off the EMDs before purchase?
Many Jews and Arabs are brainwashed to treat any pork product as 'unclean' and will run a mile rather than touch it.
My father was an assistant to both
Hughes and Aspinal of the L&Y before joining British Dyes (ICI) after the grouping.I still have some of the reserch documents on superheating and compounding by them.
Manchester Victoria to Liverpool was scheduled at 40 minutes in 1908. I wonder what the current schedule is?
John B.

[Simon Reed]

Tulyar - I've never been to Israel but as Dave confirms some Mk2 stock was sold there in the late 80's.

If I recall correctly it was the problematic 2D/E stock which was BR's first foray into air conditioning. A friend of mine spotted several of these sitting in a field in Israel in the early 90's so they clearly did'nt go down too well there either!

Dave - what sort of service frequency are we talking about? Western European-style regular service or peak hour only intensity?

This unit from Belgium sounds intriguing. I'm guessing it's one of the Mechelen - built trainsets which were monumentally unsuccesful in the low countries and replaced quite quickly by tri-voltage electric loco's.

If my guess is correct, they were'nt actually anything to do with Budd. The Belgians did have some Budd units built under licence (much as the Dutch had Baldwin electric loco's that bore a family resemblance to "Little Joe's") but then built their own stock which was very heavily influenced by the Budds.

It's a great tribute to their American designers that the Dutch Baldwins were very much front line traction until around ten years ago, having been built in 1951-3.

Dutch railways run - usually - with incredible punctuallity. I recall waiting at Utrecht one day for a Haarleem bound express that rolled in an unprecedented 10 minutes late behind Baldwin 1201, the class leader and my mate's last one for haulage.

I can only presume that the driver was in for a carpeting due to lateness because on VERY tight timings we were only 3 minutes late into Amsterdam. This was in 1995 so they were still capable of fast running right to the end.

[Simon Reed]

John - I've been playing about with The Trainline (oh, the benefits of Wednesday late shift! I'm on double time and a day in lieu until midnight and I've nothing to do but play on the internet!) and sure enough I can't find any Stockport-London cheap tricks either.

It may be defeating the object somewhat but how about going to Sheffield then MML to London? It'll take a bit of time but it'll be very cheap.

Best time I can find from Vic to Lime Street today is 1hour 4minutes. That means that in the end the CLC won! You're far quicker going from Manchester Piccadilly.

[BR60103]

PULLMANS
I have a train of OO Pullman cars (Wrenn) and they have both first and third class cars. Did any of you ride these and can you compare the service to railway first and third? I'd also like to hear how the fare compares with the railway.

[John Bakeer]

Simon, Eureka! I've found the elusive site <nationalrail.co.uk/promotions/alpha> £25.00 each way Stockport-London, book at least 24 hrs ahead of journey time.As we intend travelling Saturday virtually all trains are available. Now the train is viable at £100.00. all up. Two years ago it was possible to do the same journey for £16.00 return, more than a slight increase!
Just seen the preliminary report on National Rail (the network/infrastructure company). Annual loss 2005-6 £232,000,000.00; 2004-5 £47,000,000.00. The Boss (CEO) gets a bonus of £270,000.00; on top of a salary of £504,000.00 along with similar amounts for other board members. This is because the on time arrivle of passenger trains is now 86%. If this was Switzerland they'd all be sacked!? A fine example of British industries practice of rewarding failure.
I recollect the old 1st & 3rd class for ordinary travellers during the 40s, 50s, 60s. Generally the 3rd class was 4 hard seats a side per compartment (and not very clean) against 3 per side 1st, and quite plush; The local trains were generally 3rd cass with no corridor /no toilet, it was God help the incontinent. I think the 1st class suplement was about 50%, the same as today on Virgin.
My (hazy) recollection of Pullmans in th 50s was that they were all one class with the option of silver service, I only madea few trips before a change of job and the aquisision of a car curtailed most of my rail travel.
Johgn B.

[Hugh Jampton]

According to an article in the Mirror he's going to get a bonus of more than a million, and each employee will get about 2 grand.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=17128265%26method=full%26siteid=94762%26headline=exclusive%2d%2drecord%2ddeal%2dfor%2drail%2dstaff%2d-name_page.html