British Railway Operations

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Isambard: I've always enjoyed your addition to the discussions. However, I'm not so sure I agree with your math there.[;)]

Shucks, looks as if I flunked a math test again! My apologies to Murphy and other alert readers.
[:)]

[Murphy Siding]

No apologies needed. We all need a good chuckle now and then.

[Simon Reed]

Oh dear, John.

I'm looking forward to the World Cup, as usual, but won't be getting drunk or behaving anti-socially - no more than usual anyway! Sadly I've pulled a 12 hour shift on Saturday so can only listen to England - Paraguay. Anyway, after the Sri Lanka fiasco today we need something to cling to!

Townsend - my top delay on Amtrak was six hours and that's not a big one. I think - and this is a thumbnail think - that the problem lies in very vague scheduling and what we might best call "operational contingencies".

Basically this is what single track routes with heavy traffic do for you. Train 1 leaves point A 30 minutes late. Train 2 leaves point B on time. They're booked to meet and pass at point C, midway through the journey.

Hey presto - now we have two late running trains, with consequential knock-on effects.

My experience is, of course, a generalisation but some roads are far better at working around the physical restrictions their infrastructure imposes upon them than others. The bottom line, though, is that all of Amtrak's Class 1 hosts would far rather expedite their revenue earning freights than their FRA mandated passenger trains.

Never mind that, though. Did you enjoy it? And out of itching curiosity what were your locos? You'll have had an AEM7 New York-Washinghton and I only need one of them for haulage, hence my itchyness.

And I'm down to 101 Genesis, three of which will never work again...

[Murphy Siding]

The July issue of Trains Magazine has an article about the Canadian VIA Ocean passenger train. It explains that in 2000, VIA bought 139 unfinished" British cars that were commisioned by BR for a Channel Tunnel overnight service that fell victim to the privatization initiative". It goes on to say that there were issues with the "smaller European cars". How much smaller are they? Some of you who have ridden trains on both sides of the Atlantic-how would you compare the size? Thanks

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

The July issue of Trains Magazine has an article about the Canadian VIA Ocean passenger train. It explains that in 2000, VIA bought 139 unfinished" British cars that were commisioned by BR for a Channel Tunnel overnight service that fell victim to the privatization initiative". It goes on to say that there were issues with the "smaller European cars". How much smaller are they? Some of you who have ridden trains on both sides of the Atlantic-how would you compare the size? Thanks

These "Nightstar" cars are not as large as most "European" cars but are close to the maximum size for "British" cars as they were intended to run through overnight services to provincial cities north of London on the BR network.

They are (off the top of my head) 75 feet long, 9 feet wide (at the widest part of the curved body) and 12'6" to 13' tall.

A standard 1950s streamliner car as used by VIA on the "Canadian" would be 85 feet long, 10 feet wide over body and 14 feet (to 14'6") high (excluding the domes, of course).

A "Superliner" or similar two level car wil be 16 feet to 17 feet tall but otherwise like a streamliner in width and length.

The existing VIA LRC cars designed for tilting in curves, are lower in height than standard North American cars and somewhat similar in overall appearance to the "Rennaissance" cars as the ex "Nightstar" stock is called. The Amtrak "Acela" cars are similar to the LRC vehicles and smaller than standard cars too.

M636C

[Tulyar15]

Meanwhile, I've had a few days off work which I've spent with my brother photographing and filming trains, mostly in S. Wales but also at Banbury (see http://www.roscalen.com/signals/Banbury/index.htm on my brother's site).

One of the places we visited in Wales was Abercynon, the very cradle of railways. It is hear that the Pen-y-darren tramroad used to start. It was on this tramway that Richard Trevithick's 1804 loco ran. To-day you can walk along much of the tramway route - it follows the east bank of the River Taff between Abercynon and Merthyr whilst the present rail line (opened 1841) follows the west bank. The tramroad course starts by the Navigation Inn (which was just called the New Inn in Trevithick's day) and there is a small monument to Trevithick by the pub.

Appropriately Abercynon still has a manual signal box and a friendly couple allowed us to take some photos looking across the valley from their garden!

[daveklepper]

I notice that TransPennine serves North Blackpool. Does anyone else (besides the seacoast tramline) serve Blackpool? Is there any direct service from Liverpool to Blackpool?

[John Bakeer]

Dave,
I have just checcked Liverpool -Blackpool trains; There are 5 tonight 6.00pm- midnight.
All requiring 1, 2 or 3 changes. John B.

[Simon Reed]

Dave - two operators serve Blackpool - Transpennine and Northern Rail.

Transpennine operate an hourly York-Leeds-Bradford-Blackburn-Blackpool North service.

Northern operate a far more frequent service, primarily from Manchester.

They also operate the Blackpool South branch which is essentially a very long siding, worked on the "one engine in steam" principle discussed earlier.

The coastal tramway is nothing to do with the National rail network and is owned and operated by the municipality of Blackpool, primarily using trams (streetcars) built in the 1930's!

Some links:- http://www.northernrail.org/ and http://www.webtramways.com/fts/ - to explain the latter Fylde is the generic name for the peninsula that Blackpool is on.

You've mentioned that you travelled extensively in Britain in the 1960's. Did you go to Blackpool? If so the likelihood is that you went to Blackpool Central station, which is now a freeway and a vast car and bus park! Tempus Fugit.

[daveklepper]

I visited Blackpool in 1962 and twice since them. In 1962 it was Central Station, I did ride most if the Coastal Tramway and then rode to Fleetwood and took the ferry to the Isle of Man where I road all three steam lines then runniing, as well as the east coast tram and Saifell Mountain line, and of course the Douglas horsecar line, including from the ferry to the hotel and to and from the Isle of Man interurban. What year was the Queen's 25 Anniversary? That was the year I lead an ERA tour, wherein I did try to repeat for the group what I had done in 1962, but now we arrived at Blackpool North and now only one of the three steam lines on the Isle of Man was still running. Then in 1994 I stopped briefly in Blackpool and once again rode the tram, but did not go on to the Isle of Man. Which I regret, I love the place!

[Simon Reed]

The Queen's Silver Jubilee was 1977.

I've only been to the Isle of Man twice - once with my school in 1984 and then in 1993 for the Centenary celebrations of the electric railway reaching it's northernmost destination, Ramsey.

It is a fantastic place and the people are incredibly friendly and accomodating.

I think there's a real sense of regret that the Peel branch of the steam railway was closed. I believe that the end was brought about the cost of maintaining the infrastructure which, on a small island, is a decisive factor.

Having said that the bus service is extremely comprehensive so there is still a viable public transport provision.

Several pages ago you asked how many operational standard gauge steam loco's are operable here. Add one! My good friend Alec Sharphouse has just returned his 1911 Barclay 0-6-0T to steam at the Lakeside and Haverthwaite Railway. Photo's to follow.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Several pages ago you asked how many operational standard gauge steam loco's are operable here. Add one! My good friend Alec Sharphouse has just returned his 1911 Barclay 0-6-0T to steam at the Lakeside and Haverthwaite Railway. Photo's to follow.

Is this the loco mentioned in "Heritage Railway" magazine as being restored in under a year?

[daveklepper]

Is that standard gauge? Was that a locomotive generally used in suburban service? Which railroad and where?

[Anonymous]

The haulage on my trip on the Cresent was an AEM7 New York - Washington and a pair of Genesis Diesels to New Orleans. I'm affraid i've never been a train spotter so i can't tell you what the numbers were. We were late leaving Washington so saw a bit of station activety. I am suprised at the amount of "pottering about" there seemed to be and how many trains are still loco hauled. I Britain its all multiple units (almost) and before that coaching stock was fixed formation. Don Phillips has little dig at European Passenger trains in the July issue that i got today, but from the opperators point of view you can relly sweat the assets with push pull and multiple unit stock and cut right down on light engin moves and ECS working. Any way rant over.

Dave, the Lakeside and Haverthwaite railway is standard guage. I dont know the engine in question but Andrew Barclay were a private Scotish locomotive builder and most of thier products were for industrial use so this engine probably spent its life shunting in a coal mine yard or factory. 0-6-0's were common in suburban service out of Liverpool St mainly but they were side tanks. After WWI 0-6-2's 0-4-4's and 2-6-2's tended to be common suburban steam power.. Saddle tanks tended to be for shunting only.

[Anonymous]

News from Cogload country. Looks like the China Clay dries have stopped loading on saturdays now, so I would photograph the Traffic if you are that way inclined sooner rather than later.

Even the long distance Cement traffic into Moorswater has basically halved. However there are some bright spots on the (distant) horizon, however as the saying goes we shall wait and see.

On a personal note Cogload's brother has been accepted by First Capital Connect (Thameslink) as a trainee Driver (Engineer) for thier electric "tram" system from Bedford - Brighton. So good news and I would strongly advise everybody not to travel that route for a few years!

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

On a personal note Cogload's brother has been accepted by First Capital Connect (Thameslink) as a trainee Driver (Engineer) for thier electric "tram" system from Bedford - Brighton. So good news and I would strongly advise everybody not to travel that route for a few years!

If Britain runs a lot of electric passenger trains, where do you draw the line between what is a tram, and what is a train?

[Anonymous]

Me thinks cogland calling Bedford - Brighton a tram line is a bit of a joke. Thameslink (FCC) trains are normal EMU's. I'm not very good at posting links or computers in general, but if you Google Manchester Metrolink or Sheffield Super tram, you should get to something that shows you what a Briti***ram looks like.

[Simon Reed]

The Barclay was'nt quite "completed in just a year" although in preservation terms it was a very quick restoration.

It was presumed to be a wreck and indeed looked like one because much of it's platework was wasted. On closer inspection, however, the frames were sound, the boiler and firebox were'nt bad and cylinders and motion were intact.

A lot of ancillary bits were missing but Barclay components are relatively easy to come by, and a new cab, tender and tanks have been fabricated.

As Townsend surmises it was built for industrial use, namely a Scottish ironworks and was then sold to a colliery. It never saw mainline service or passenger work so ironically, although it is now in steam, one of the last big jobs is to fit a vacuum braking system so it can work it's first ever passenger trains.

It is, you will note, an 0-6-0T - ie a side tank design so it has a very "main line" look about it.

Cogload - my brother's partner commutes daily from Kings Cross Thameslink to East Croydon. Should I tell him to get a hard hat?

[MStLfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

If my guess is correct, they were'nt actually anything to do with Budd. The Belgians did have some Budd units built under licence (much as the Dutch had Baldwin electric loco's that bore a family resemblance to "Little Joe's") but then built their own stock which was very heavily influenced by the Budds.

It's a great tribute to their American designers that the Dutch Baldwins were very much front line traction until around ten years ago, having been built in 1951-3.

Dutch railways run - usually - with incredible punctuallity. I recall waiting at Utrecht one day for a Haarleem bound express that rolled in an unprecedented 10 minutes late behind Baldwin 1201, the class leader and my mate's last one for haulage.

I can only presume that the driver was in for a carpeting due to lateness because on VERY tight timings we were only 3 minutes late into Amsterdam. This was in 1995 so they were still capable of fast running right to the end.

The design of the 1200 class was by Baldwin and Westinghouse if i remember correctly. There is a resemblance to the 1950's pennsy experimental machines as well as a Spanish class (forgot the class number).
Some 1200's are still active! 5 were saved by the bell as a judge forbade scrapping (they where already at the scrapper!).
ACTS, the first private freightoperator in the Netherlands bought them, four are running and one is used for spare parts.
See this link: http://www.acts-nl.com/NL/liefhebbers/fotogalerij/E1250.html
They often run (in multiple like the Milwaukee Road, no less) with these former Belgian locos: http://www.acts-nl.com/NL/liefhebbers/fotogalerij/DE6700.html
1201 is in the railroad museum in Utrecht I believe.

As for punctuality: week 22 is at 88,6%, up from 86,8 in week 19 and the target is 86%. These days management will get a bonus for that what the traindrivers get I don't know.
Marc Immeker

[John Bakeer]

Murphy,
A simplistic answer to your query re. trams/trains.
Trams are usually of lightweight construction adapted for street running with boarding and alighting from street level (Manchester trams have retractable steps as they share some main line facilities); mdern UK trams are all single deck, the exception being Blackpool which has a fleet of vintage single and double deckers; Electric trains are used exclusively on reserved track with passenger access from high level platforms, these often share track/facilities with main line passenger and freight services. the exception is the Glasgow underground (subway) which has a non standard gauge of 1220mm (4'-00").
John B.

[martin.knoepfel]

Why do the former NS-1200-class-locos run in MU with diesels? Do they get or deliver their trains on non-electrified spurs? This would be reasonable if you load/unload containers. Or do they need the diesels as boosters for starting from stand?

[Anonymous]

hard hat and triple life insurance.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by martin.knoepfel

Why do the former NS-1200-class-locos run in MU with diesels? Do they get or deliver their trains on non-electrified spurs? This would be reasonable if you load/unload containers. Or do they need the diesels as boosters for starting from stand?

The diesel is needed for the line to the Rail Service Center at Waalhaven and to reach Maasvlakte, that line is, or will be, electrified at 25Kv AC. which the 1200 can't handle. cheaper to bring the diesel along rather than park it at Kifhoek.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marcimmeker

The design of the 1200 class was by Baldwin and Westinghouse if i remember correctly. There is a resemblance to the 1950's pennsy experimental machines as well as a Spanish class (forgot the class number).
Some 1200's are still active! 5 were saved by the bell as a judge forbade scrapping (they where already at the scrapper!).
ACTS, the first private freightoperator in the Netherlands bought them, four are running and one is used for spare parts.
See this link: http://www.acts-nl.com/NL/liefhebbers/fotogalerij/E1250.html
They often run (in multiple like the Milwaukee Road, no less) with these former Belgian locos: http://www.acts-nl.com/NL/liefhebbers/fotogalerij/DE6700.html
1201 is in the railroad museum in Utrecht I believe.

As for punctuality: week 22 is at 88,6%, up from 86,8 in week 19 and the target is 86%. These days management will get a bonus for that what the traindrivers get I don't know.
Marc Immeker

British video company FHP Audio Visual has a cab ride video of an ACTS 1200 on the Leeuwarden Shuttle running from Amersfoort to Kifhoek Yard. The driver is a NS Traction Inspector (Road Foreman) moonlighting for Spoorflex. Its clear that he really knows how to get the best out of the locomotive. You can clearly hear him working the tapchanger up and down the resistances, and they also show him at work. Later in the video he puts the ACTS driver to work and instructs him on the finer techniques of handling a 1200.
Yes Baldwin designed the mechanicals and Westinghouse (US) the electrical equipment, the same two companies built quite a few of the Pennsy's GG1s too.

[BR60103]

Murphy:
the "tram" reference is like calling the Pennsy and extension of the New York subway system.

I have a note that the 2-foot gauge locomotive "Elidir" has been returned from Canada to Britain. I saw this stored in a barn (with another, slightly larger loco) many years ago. I don't think it has been steamed since it arrived here.

[John Bakeer]

Gentlemen,
We seem to be drifting from th thread, I know Holland isn't exactly half a world away from UK, apart from them having used some of our EM's, 08's, 20's etc.
John B.

[martin.knoepfel]

Holland bought some English electric locomotives, when the Pennine-tunnel was closed and they became redundant.

The line ran on 1500DC, like the Dutch railroads, except for branch-lines and the Betuwe-line, which is 25kv 50 Hz AC.

[Simon Reed]

Martin - that may need a bit of clarification.

The locos - classified as EM2 in the UK - were built for the electrification of the Woodhead Tunnel route as passenger engines.

An externally identical class - EM1 - was built for freight work, with different gearings and without train heating equipment.

The locos were built long before electrification of the route was completed and some EM1's were sent to Holland on loan to assist in rebuilding the Dutch network which was largely destroyed in WW2.

When through passenger services on the Woodhead route came to an end in 1968 the seven EM2's were sold to NS.

Three survive in preservation, one of which, 1501 (BR 27003) is kept in working order in Utrecht and makes occasional main line appearances.

I'm not sure about your suggestion that we're going off topic, John. This thread just wanders around with no discernible purpose or direction, like the architypical British country branchline. Or me on a Friday night!

[Tulyar15]

Actually some of the Woodhead EM1's DID have train heating - they were steam heated! I think those that were so-fitted were the ones that were given names. Some of them were run in on the Great Eastern line between London Liverpool St and Shenfield (which was electrified on 1500 Vdc in 1949 before being converted to 25 kv Ac in the 1960's). Under the TOPS classification scheme the EM1's became class 76 (the EM2's had by then been sold to Holland - had they remained with BR they would have been class 77). As it was for the EM1/76's it just meant changing the first digit of their numbers from a 2 to a 7 as they had previously been numbered in the 26xxx series.

[John Bakeer]

Hi Simon,
I dislike taking things too seriously. it causes boredom and loss of interest. I treat these jottings as conversation. I'm sorry if it offends you.
The Dutch got some 08's and 20's, some of which have been repatriated and put back into sevice, I believe an EM2 'Tommy?' is back in the UK.
The EM1's (Bo-Bo) were in the 26000 series and intended for freight service, the passenger EM2's (Co-Co) were named in the 27000 series and were all fitted with electrode boilers for steam heating.
John B.