British Railway Operations

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer
[
I recollect the old 1st & 3rd class for ordinary travellers during the 40s, 50s, 60s. Generally the 3rd class was 4 hard seats a side per compartment (and not very clean) against 3 per side 1st, and quite plush; The local trains were generally 3rd cass with no corridor /no toilet, it was God help the incontinent. I think the 1st class suplement was about 50%, the same as today on Virgin.
My (hazy) recollection of Pullmans in th 50s was that they were all one class with the option of silver service, I only madea few trips before a change of job and the aquisision of a car curtailed most of my rail travel.
Johgn B.

It would largely depend on which Region's trains you were riding. My meories of annual Holidays spent with either a West Wales weekly Runabout Ticket (for Tenby / Saundersfoot / Pembroke) or a Central Wales weekly Runabout Ticket (for Llandrindod Wells / Ludlow / Shrewsbury) was that ex Great Western compartments were strictly 4 a side, whereas ex LMS were 3 a side, with armrests (in both cases 2nd. Class). My honest opinion was that the British Railways Mk1 was a big improvement over GW 2nd class.

The LMS late 1930 designs were particularly comfortable, with fantastically wide and deep windows to admire the scenery, and the best carriage I have ever ridden was a 1938 Compartment First, which somehow got used in the Central Wales stock pool back around 1961 or 1962.

The Blue (Diesel) and Umber (Steam) Western Region Pullmans had both 1st and 2nd Class accommodation, but I'm sure that I've read that the Blue Manchester Pullmans were Ist Class only. Eastern Region Pullmans and the Southern "Belles" - too far away so I never saw any.

Hwyl,

[Anonymous]

the bonus is £954 before tax. Not sure where they get that 2 grand figure from. Probabley thier own imaginations I think.

So after the scotsman has removed his slice I will have enough to probabley purchase a pie and pint down the Trispen Arms.

[Simon Reed]

More than you'd have got under BR but still a kick in the parts.

NR are sounding, and functioning, more like a Nationalised company by the day. Give the top man a fat juicy steak and throw the people who actually do the work some crumbs.

[Hugh Jampton]

The 2k is probably some weighted average,, kinda like the "average wage", who makes that?

[Anonymous]

Aye. But under BR I would have subsidised and a certain amount of free travel. Whoch I dont have now.

Looks like the threat of strikes are receeding this year though.

[John Bakeer]

David,
Your 'Wren' Pullmans are quite rare and possibly worth a fair amount. If you still have the original boxes in good condition they would fetch a good price from British collectors.
"Stoopid! But very interestink". Quote from Rowan and Martins Laugh-in.(showing my age again)
We went to Glossop this morning by car as according to 'Train Line' there is no service from Stockport, strangely there are trains in Glossop station with passengers on board.
This is what you get with outsourcing the enquiry service to India!
John B.

[John Bakeer]

Cogload,
You musr live in Iceland if a pie and a pint cost seven hundred quid! Here it'll set you back all of two pounds fifty, and you'll get change from that.
John B.

[Anonymous]

There is a site on t'internet which has pictures of Signalboxes in Cogload Coubtry. Including a picture (inside) of the box in which I currently work. I do not appear on this site btw.

[url] http://craig-munday.fotopic.net/c484322_1.html

For our american friends. Marvel at the pace of technological change!

[Murphy Siding]

cogload: Thanks for the link. They look a lot like older, American equipment, except your seem to be in color. Most photos I've seen of American equipment make it seem more *black and white*( A really poor attempt at a joke.)
Can you expain to a non-railroader like me, the signalman's job?
Thanks

[BR60103]

John: sorry, but my Wrenn Pullmans are not collectible any more. The last two were bought from one of our HD experts, and he charged me $10 apiece. These ones had scale wheels, bogies cut back to take kadee couplers, noles drilled in the floor for the Kadees and working corridor connections applied. He said they weren't worth trying to restore.
The rest of my Pullman train was a gift from an English friend* and was similarly converted to Kadee, but without the wheel and body modifications. No boxes for any of it.
* He was changing over to continental and American for better performance.

[John Bakeer]

David,
Your reason for messing up the Wren stock is quite valid. They really were apalling runners and the coupling system very crude. I started in British 00 in the early 60's but quickly switched to US HO and finally to N. What a shame that the nation that gave the world rairoads in the 19th century, couldn't even make decent models until the beginning of the 21st! (most of that is made in China). Arthritis and the move to sheltered accommodation has curtailed my model railroading, but I still manage to get to the odd exhibition.
Murphy,
The signalmans job is similar in a lot of ways to dispachers, we still use the absolute block system on most of our routes, train order is almost non-existant here, although a system of issuing tokens to the driver is used on single lines. Perhaps I should leave this subject to Cogload, after all, he is a retired signlman.
John B.

[Anonymous]

Retired? I Wish......[:(!]

What does a signalman do.?Well apart from Signalling the trains safely through his or her section of line (think Towers in US/ Canadian parlance), I also spend most of the time on the phone dealing with Farm and Accomodation crossing users (there are direct links to the signalbox), issuing possessions to the S&T/PWAY gangs so they can have access to the line, keeping the TRUST system accurate by filling in the arrival and departure points.

The system of Signalling trains in Cogload Country is Absoloute Block (Mostly). As a result to operate the timetable and to create the conditions for the smooth running of service i.e. one train on one line in one section at any one time there are signalboxes still in existance at Penzance, St Erth, Roskear Junction, Truro, Par, Lostwithiel and Liskeard. The next box which is Track Circuit Block is Plymouth. Because it is TCB and lights it controls a lot larger area than the Absolute Block/ Semaphore system which is used West of that. To resignal Cornwall and use lights/ cabling required to cerate the amount of block sections to run the timetable would cost so much that it is cheaper to basically keep the existing system of signalling trains in place. Plus if it goes wrong all it needs is a bit of wire to replace.

So lets say, the box next to me offers me a train. If it is a Class1(passenger), this would be four bells. So, initially, there would be one bell (call attention), which I would then acknowledge, then there would be 4 bells. If the line is clear up to and including my clearing point (i.e. either 200yards/400 yards beyond the first STOP signal in my area of control) then I will acknoweldge the 4 Bells and then the block indicator to "Line Clear." As the signalbox next door section's (i.e. the last signal under his/her control) signal is know nas "locked by the block", the act of me turning the block indicator to Line Clear means that he/she can clear his/her section signal to a proceed aspect. When the train passes him/her and is COMPLETE WITH TAIL LAMP then he/she will send 2 Bells (Train entering Section), I will acknowledge this and then turn my Block Indicator to "Train On Line". I will then offer the train on (i.e. ask "is line clear") to the next box in turn.

There are three positions on a block indicator, Normal, Line Clear and Train on Line. This means that the rear boxes signal is now locked and when that train passes cannot give a proceed aspect until I give a "Line Clear" (2-1 train leaving section) and he or her offers me a train again. In my case I will pull my first home and distant signal, wait 12 mins, lower a set of barriers and then pull the signals which control the line through the station in sequence.

There is a track diagram above the frame. In the UK now, the station limits (roughly the area between a box's first home and section signal) is track circuited so you know where the train is. However the sections of track between the signalboxes can be "dark territory" - i.e. you have absolutely nno idea where the train is. Only experience and knowledge will give you an idea of when to pull the other signals off in your area, especially if there are crossings to contend with. In a lot of cases when the 2 bells are recieved all the signals in a signallers area of control are pulled, however it depends on what the train is timetabled to do.

I will send that bell code(2-1 and turning the blcok instrument back to line clear) to the box in rear when the train passes me complete with tail lamp and this action is repeated ad nauseum until Liskeard when the line becomes TCB and there are berths on a panel which have the trains headcode enetered. As the train passes each signal and the track circuits operate to protect that train buy turning the siggies to red (we hope), this will light up on the panel and the headcode will step up to the next berth so the signaller knows where the train is.

So that is it in a very very simple nutshell


This a very handy website I have just discovered.....
[/url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_signalling#Timetable_operation

[Murphy Siding]

Thanks cogload. That was interesting. I'll want to study up on the wikipedia link as well. Can you explain the big levers in the photos, similar to those in American interlocking towers? Do they operate switches, or signals, or ?
Thanks

[Anonymous]

the levers operate the signals, points/crossings (switches) andin some cases level crsooings as well. Thus they are painted.

There is a nice picture of PAR box on the frame which illustrates what I mean:

Right at the top of the picture (i.e. above the frame) there is the station diagram. This is basically a map to show the lines, track circuits, points and signals. As well as other operating items like level crossings, token/ staff machines etc etc.

On the second row there are a variety of instruments. Some of these are repeaters, to give the signaller an indication of what signals are currently showing on the ground. This is of course useful if you cant see them. The rectangular boxes are the Block Instruments which the signaller uses to indicate whether the line is clear etc. when being offered the train. Next to it is the bell, from whence you get the call attention etc (I told you that this is the height of technology!). The Instruments are co-acting. I.E. There will be one instrument for Lostwithiel here and one bell. The UP (i.e. London) Line (to Lostwithiel) will be controlled by Lostwithiel as Par is basically asking permission to pass the train on. So when the signaller in Lostwithiel turns the block to Line Clear this will be repeated in that block instrument. However when the signaller at Par is asked for a line clear FROM Lostwithiel (the Down), he will turn the handle on the instrument which will co-act in Lostwithiel's block instrument.

Right below that is the lever frame. See the row of plungers above the levers? This is the interlocking for the frame. IF you want to pull the lever you have to pu***he plunger. It acts as another line of safety, as if you try and pull the wrong lever in a particular sequence then you could end up with a sore wrist. I will come onto sequences again in a minute.

Ok below are the levers. The lever painted Yellow is a distant signal lever, the ones painted red are the Stop or Controlled signal levers, the ones painted blue are for mechanised points (or facing point locks), the ones painted black are for non mechanised points and white are spare/ not used. On the levers are white markers, these are reminders of whatever other levers have to be pulled to set a route/ sequence.

Ironically at the end of the box you can see the "Par Panel". This was put in the 1980's when Burngullow was shut and they singalled the line between Par and Probus and replaced the semaphores with lights, controlled by an axle counter system from par. There are no headcode berths on here as it is a mini panel and once the trains leave that panel and enter the track diagram there is no system for allowing this technology. It is basically a series of lights in the diagram which are circuited to each track circuit. The switches at the bottom end of the panel operate the points/ signals on that section of track.

[Murphy Siding]

I take it that the levers are simply a switch, or relay, that sends a signal to a distant signal light or switch point? From the photo of PAR box, you would have thought it was a museum set-piece. Is everything on the rail line that clean and neat?

[BR60103]

Murphy:
I don't know how cogload's box is currently set up, but the traditional set up had the levers connected to sets of pipes and wires. (N.A. signalling also used the pipes). The pipes are connected to the turnouts (points, switches) because the need to be pushed and pulled. The semaphore signals had a counterbalance below the arm that pulled the signal to danger. The wire from the signalbox pulled the counterbalance the other way. If anything happened to the wire, the signal was supposed to return to danger.
Cogload: do you still have mechanical interlocking in the box or have they all been converted?
Mechanical interlocking involves having two sets of bars under the levers. The levers are connected to vertical bars, and there are horizontal bars crossing under them. the vertical bars have notches in them and the horizontal bars have things that stick in the notches. If you have a signal controlling a facing point, while the signal is at danger you can waggle the point about all you like. When you pull the signal off, (is it off c.?) it slides on of the bars over and it nestles in the notch of the point lever, locking it in position. The point can be locked either normal or reversed. If you have a line used for both directions, the signal will lock at danger the signals going the other way. Pulling the home signal off also releases the distant signal.
Sorry I took so long. I have a model interlocking frame that a friend made for his layout that works beautifully and shows the variations on locking.
There's a site on signalling at : http://www.signalbox.org/

[Anonymous]

Murphy...mixture of both. For the far flung signals (i.e. Cogloads First home is over 2miles away which would be a mighty long pull) then it is relay based. For the rest it is wires.

It is very clean....probabley for the snap! However we do like to keep things as tidy as possible. That photo is history in one sense as the line which was singled from Burngullow to Probus has now been redoubled again......

BR6013. Yes, still 9/10ths mechanically interlocked.

[John Bakeer]

Cogload,
My apologies for adding extra years to your age, since I retired, I sometimes wonder how I found time for work!
Some yank short lines work one engine in steam with written train orders. Their interlocking towers (where they survive) are similar in a lot of ways to UK, but because of the vast distances involved are mainly confined to large junctions and crossing/links between different rairoad companies.
John B.

[Murphy Siding]

John B. I don't quite get the reference to *steam* in your post above. Can you translate the....English into......English for me?[:)] Thanks

[Simon Reed]

It's terminology dating from..well, steam days that has never really been updated.

What it means is that there is a single train effectively "locked in" on a single track route, the locomotive of which can move freely about without fear of another train getting into it's sphere of operation.

For what it's worth, however, I think John is wrong by default.

I'm not sure that a route operated under train orders equates satisfactorily to a route operated under restricted block. Is the "one train in steam" rule necessarily applicable on a road with a single booked working a day? I don't know, this is Cogload territory.

Anyway - I've been having a play on the new 185 units today. Very impressive over a short distance. They're extremely sharp off the mark and the ride is superb compared to a 158. Interiors are OK, but I tend to think 158 interiors are a bit over-refined for what they do anyway.

Overall, if the reliability matches the hype (and this has yet to be tested) I think we've got a good unit here.

Sorry American and Israeli friends! These are new DMU's for the Transpennine services in the North of England - see http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/ .

Very nice too, with 100mph capability. Judging by the way 185114 got away from a check at Heaton Lodge behind the Binliners this afternoon 100 will be easy.

[Anonymous]

Simon

As I have very little Idea on the principles of NA signalling, i will have to read what are train orders etc. equated to viz "one train in steam" before coming to any conclusion.

Suffice to say that there seems to be more permissive working allowed over the pond than is accepted here, mind you, there seems to be more permissive working allowed on the continent than there is here.

Off topic (1) Music of the day is a touch of the Led Zeppellin.
Off topic (2) - Rest Day Friday, Sun is shining, Rest Day Saturday - forecast is nice and hot. Hmmm. I think the beach is calling.

[Murphy Siding]

Simon:Thanks for the explanation. The *steam* part had me baffled. It's kind of like our railroads having a sign before a crossing, with the letter "W", for whistle, when they haven't had whistles for 50+ years.

cogload: Sounds like the beach is calling. What is considered a hot day in Britain?

[Hugh Jampton]

Anything over 70 is considered to be a hot day, over 75 and the railway's go into a sort of meltdown as speed restrictions are put on nearly every bit of CWR in the country for fear of buckling. Above that and the world is coming to an end.
At the other end of the scale anything below 30 is considered cold. Below 25 and the railways go into a sort of meltdown as speed restrictions are put on nearly every bit of CWR in the country for fear of rail breaks.
I'd hate for these people to have to spend a year in Toronto.

[Anonymous]

OT: Don't mention the war.

LONDON, June 1 — They have been warned, as always, not to rampage through the streets, destroying things and attacking people. But as England's soccer fans prepare to visit Germany for the World Cup this month, another item has been added to their long "verboten" list: Don't mention the war.

"It's not a joke," Charles Clarke, then the home secretary, warned at a pre-World Cup briefing earlier this spring. "It is not a comic thing to do. It is totally insulting and wrong."

That means, basically, no getting drunk and goose-stepping in a would-be humorous manner. No Nazi salutes. No shouting "Sieg Heil!" at the referees. No impromptu finger-under-the-nose Hitler mustaches.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/02/world/europe/02england.html

Dave

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

We Americans were lucky in 1994 when we got to host the Football World Cup (as opposed to the Rugby World Cup) and the airfares across the Atlantic were a bit too dear for most of the hooligans. Let's hope that they don't muck up the World's Greatest Sporting Event.

[Anonymous]

Have just come back from the USA and had a great time. Didn't get chance to do much train watching as i was on holiday with some non railfan mates, but did ride from New York to New Orleans by train. We were 2 hours late into New Orleans which according to the staff is pretty good performance, an acceptable level of lateness so to speak. Apparently a few weeks erlier the train had been so late that a passenger had called 911 to report that they had been kidnaped by Amtrack. I'm still interested as to how a scheduled railroad like Norfolk and Southern can run a passenger train so late. After all if you have a scheduled railway you can plan on having trains stood in sidings for not that long and you can see the best times to start trains off so they never sit more than 5 min in a loop. If you just validade of a hedway and SRT table and have train times as ballpark figures does that not result in long waits in sidings for trains. I think this may have been covered before but when a thread getts to 65 pages you forget what was on page 15.

[Isambard]

Looking back I see that Murphy kicked off this very interesting and rambling thread on 27 July '05, about 300 days ago. With 20,741 visits to now, according to the counter, that works out to an average of about 6,900 visits a day. Impressive!
Thanks for the kick-off Murphy and thanks to the many other contributors.
[:)]

[Murphy Siding]

Isambard: I've always enjoyed your addition to the discussions. However, I'm not so sure I agree with your math there.[;)]

[BR60103]

Cogload: for train order operation, we need a whole new thread. I think we had one on "time table and train order" operation.
My signalling observations only date back to 60s on a double track line with electric light signals. The recent experience is centralised traffic control. The "dark" lines seem to operate more like the early railways: "The train was late so we sent a locomotive down the line to look for it."

I have a slide of the control board in Millerhill yard in 1976. I showed it to a fellow in our club and he asked "Where's the next panel? that's where I worked."

[John Bakeer]

The subject of one engine in steam is settled.(I trust).
A site I use for guidance on railroad matters is <www.railway-technical.com> very enlightening.
Of f subject = I am one of those (many) people that are left completely cold by the mention of any passtime that requires the participants to get drunk, fight and generally make life hell for the rest of us; in order to watch a number of numbskulls chase a ball around a field. The worlds greatest sporting event (and by far the toughest) is the Tour de France. Compare Lance Armstrong to the inflated ego trippers that play Footy.
If I could get to planet Zog for the next six weeks? I would be on the next train.
Rant over.
Townsend,
The American railroads are frieght first with Amtrak imposed on them, so revenue from frieght makes the need to keep Amtrak passengers happy less important. Over here the passenger train has alwas had priority
John B.