British Railway Operations

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Originally posted by germanium

Owlsroost - don't you mean "7 feet" for the gauge ??

Whoops - yes of course (7 feet 0¼ inch to be precise) [:I]

I'll edit the original post. - thanks for the correction.

Tony

[Isambard]

Speaking of Isambard Kingdom Brunel and the Royal Albert Bridge:
http://www.railroadforums.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=28610&cat=500&ppuser=3182

[Anonymous]

Ah the RAB. What greater way can there be of entering Gods Own Country (bias here) then over that magnificent structure. And with the great mans name emblazoned on the Arch.

The closure process seems a lot easier now; though some of our glorious politicans have failed to grasp the concept of devolution so it seems. The Scots and Welsh branches/lines should be relatively safe - however it seems that "coz we can't run it this way we'll close it mentality exists". This government has been an almighty disappointment.

The sleepers have buffets/seating accom. When living in Kingsteignton I used to catch the sleeper home from work. Get smashed in town first then buy more on the train! I think tea/coffee is also served for those wanting it in the berths as well.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

Speaking of Isambard Kingdom Brunel and the Royal Albert Bridge:
http://www.railroadforums.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=28610&cat=500&ppuser=3182

Quite interesting, thanks for sharing. It looks like someone had a nice vacation!

[daveklepper]

Wasn''t George Stephenson just as important as Brunel? Maybe even more?

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Wasn''t George Stephenson just as important as Brunel? Maybe even more?

Not really,, George's only claim to fame is that people think he invented the locomotive.
Whereas Isembard built railways, bridges, tunnels, ships etc.

[owlsroost]

Robert Stephenson (his son) has probably got a greater claim to fame than George - he founded 'Robert Stephenson & Company' in 1823 to build locomotives (his father was a partner), and in 1833 became chief engineer for the London & Birmingham railway (the first main line into London).

He later designed the famous tubular railway bridges at Conwy and across the Menai Straits (the world's first 'box girder' bridges) and the original tubular deck of Victoria Bridge across the St Lawrence in Montreal amongst others.

Tony

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE:

Reaching back into the memory, I can't remember any significant line closures since the ones in the 1970's (e.g. Bridport - Maiden Newton and Haltwhistle - Alston) other than the light rail conversions in Tyneside, Manchester, Croydon etc.

If I remember rightly, the last passenger line in Britain to be closed was the Tunbridge Wells - Eridge line in Sussex in 1985; most of which has been re-opened by preservationists as "The Spa Valley Railway".

There have been closure scares for some time now. On the one hand , Roger Ford in his "Informed Sources" column in Modern Railways keeps pointing out how the cost of the fragmented structure of the British national rail network costs about 4 times what British Rail used to cost (see http://www.alycidon.com to view his articles on line) and the government is gone to have to look to make spending cuts given that the economy is slowing down.

The Welsh and Scottish Parliaments are funding more rail re-openings so the brunt of any cutbacks is likely to be borned in the English regions - particularly the North amd the far South West. It was expected that when the new combined Great Western and Wessex franchise was to be announced (which starts in April 2006) that this would include service cuts. But all the threatened services (including the Cornish sleeper train) seem to have escaped unscathed as they are all included in the winning franchisee's plans. Meanwhile my employers are having talks with the new Franchise operator (Firstgroup) about re-opening Corsham station near Bath.

Since the Strategic Rail Authority was scrapped there do however seem to be faint signs of a more positive attitude emerging. We shall see. Given the governments slender majority I dont think they'll do anything too politically risky before the next election.

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Wasn''t George Stephenson just as important as Brunel? Maybe even more?

Not really,, George's only claim to fame is that people think he invented the locomotive.
Whereas Isembard built railways, bridges, tunnels, ships etc.

While it's true that he didn't "invent" the steam locomotive, his Rocket did incorporate innovative features which were fundamentally important - fire tube boiler aspirated by exhaust steam, brick arch, and direct drive from piston rods to wheels. He also was a pretty good Civil Engineer and the routes he engineered likewise involved bridges, tunnels, embankments and cuttings. Let's not forget that he also perfected a Miners Safety Lamp, but he wasn't deemed important enough to deserve a Knighthood like Sir Humphrey Davy.

Perhaps where he stands head and shoulders above Brunel is that he understood the economic benefits of having a network of railways constructed to a common standard gauge.

Martin

[Anonymous]

Looks like the South Wales valleys will be getting a better rail service - spotted this this morning on the BBC site:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_east/4662304.stm

Talk of new stations, trains, and more services. I know of a few 153's that they're quite welcome to...

[Simon Reed]

I'd be inclined to agree with the comments about George Stephenson as a locomotive engineer. He took the ideas of many others - principally Blenkinsop, Blucher, Murray and Trevithick - then with some refinement and improvement created Rocket and it's successors.

Both Stephensons, but George in particular, deserve recognition for their surveying and civil engineering prowess. To state the case simply, no-one had ever built a railway to be operated by steam before so they quite literally pioneered the art of railway navigation, developing, applying and establishing principles that are still valid today.

Interestingly George received his education in surveying at the same place, and using largely the same methods, as Jeremiah Dixon of Mason-Dixon Line fame.

[Simon Reed]

I think the last passenger closure was Balloch Pier in 1986, although I understand that it was a service with very little patronage other than for Loch Lomond cruises.

Speaking of passenger train withdrawals we've planned our October Amtrak event which goes (subject to last minute refinement):-

Fly to Boston

Downeaster to Portland and back - meaning that I've travelled by rail in Maine, my third last State.

Lake Shore Limited Boston - Chicago, where our party divides. I'll be having another ride on the CSSB, whereas others will be chasing down F40's on Metra.

I then do South West Chief to Alberquerque, doing Rail Runner, then continuing on the Chief to LA, while the others do California Zephyr, then South from Emeryville on a Capitols or San Jouquin service.

I'll kill time by covering locos on the Surfliners until we all assemble in San Diego to fly home.

I think that's more Amtrak than most US railfans have ever done...

[Anonymous]

Richard Trevithick. "Goin up Camborne Hill coming down". One of the great Cornishmen and a celebrated hero; although and correct me If I am wrong apart from the Catch me If you can (circa 1804????) wasn't there a powered tramway in Sarf Wales somewhere?

And the printable words to the aforesaid song.......

Goin' Up Camborne Hill (Modern trans...)

Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.
Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.
The 'osses stood still, the wheels went aroun',
Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.

White stockans, white stockans, she wore,
White stockans, white stockans, she wore,
White stockans she wore, the same as before,
Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.

I knawed 'er ol' feether, old friend,
I knawed 'er ol' feether, old friend.
I knawed 'er old man, 'ee blawed in the band,
Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.

I 'ad her, I 'ad her, I did.
I 'ad her, I 'ad her, I did.
I 'ad her I did, it cost me a quid,
Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.

Oh please have a baby by me,
Oh please have a baby by me.
I'm young and I'm strong, won't take very long,
Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.

We 'eaved on more coal for more steam,
We 'eaved on more coal for more steam.
The steam 'it the beam, the wheels went aroun',
Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.

Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.
Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.
The 'osses stood still, the wheels went aroun',
Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.

An' we pushed the damper in an' we pulled the damper out,
An' the smoke went up the chimney just the same.
An' we pushed the damper in an' we pulled the damper out
An' the smoke went up the chimney just the same.
An' the smoke went up the chimney,
An' the smoke went up the chimney,
An' the smoke went up the chimney,
An' the smoke went up the chimney just the same

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Both Stephensons, but George in particular, quite literally pioneered the art of railway navigation

Simon- I don't quite get what you're saying here. What's railway navigation? As you're sort of limited by where the rails go, what's to navigate? Thanks

[Tulyar15]

I think he means planning the route. The guys who built the railways were called Navies as they learned their trade building canals or "inland navigations" as they were called at that time in Britain.

[Tulyar15]

I think he means planning the route. The guys who built the railways were called Navies as they learned their trade building canals or "inland navigations" as they were called at that time in Britain.

[daveklepper]

I rode Glascow to Balloch Pier in 1962 and then the steamer to Tindurm and back to Glascow in the observation car. Balloch Pier was (is?) part of the electrified Glacow commuter train network, nearest thing the UK has to a German Schnellbahn system (also some would put Tyne and Wear Metro in that catagory), and I am surprised it has been abandoned. How do planned rail abandonments mesh with the Government's desire to cut fuel consumption? And reduce highway traffic?

In 1962, in additon to the London-Glascow sleeper, I also road Edinburgh - Manchester, which did not offer refreshments, just a bed.

[owlsroost]

Dave,

The suburban electric train system around Glasgow has expanded considerably since 1962 - electrification extends down the coast to Ayr and Largs, and several new/re-opened routes have been added around the city - see http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/print_maps/glasgow.pdf

It was only the short extension from Balloch (town) to Balloch Pier that closed - due to lack of regular passengers as Simon indicated.

Not sure how long it's been since your last visit to the UK, but if it's really been 40 years then I think it's high time you came back for an update [:)].

In general, passenger trains are a lot more frequent now (and mostly faster) than back then. Some things haven't changed much though - as part of the West Coast Modernisation project they recently refurbished several large (L&NWR vintage dating from the late 1800's) mechanical signalboxes at Stockport. This involved bringing engineers over from India because there weren't enough people in the UK any more with the necessary skills to undertake it - a side benefit I suppose from spreading British railway technology and culture around our ex-colonies. I was waiting for a train in Malaysia a few years ago admiring the (I think) Mackenzie & Holland lever frame on the platform controlling a set of lower-quadrant (Midland Railway style) semaphores, which may well have been there since the line was built.

Tony

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

I think he means planning the route. The guys who built the railways were called Navies as they learned their trade building canals or "inland navigations" as they were called at that time in Britain.

Thanks. I never understood where the term "navies" came from.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

I think he means planning the route. The guys who built the railways were called Navies as they learned their trade building canals or "inland navigations" as they were called at that time in Britain.

Thanks. I never understood where the term "navies" came from.[;)]

[Simon Reed]

That is indeed what I meant, and that is indeed where the term "navvies" comes from.

Dave - many of our bigger urban areas now have an intensive suburban railway system on the mainland European model. In some cities - Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham and Birmingham/Wolverhampton - this network is complemented by light rail systems although the Government has recently turned it's back on further expansion of light rail. Given the tremendous success of light rail elsewhere in the world, including the US, this is a peculiar decision.

Tyne and Wear, like London Underground, is a bit of a mix and match. It follows many of the established precepts of light rail in terms of a very intensive service with closely distributed stations, yet it runs on former BR lines (and, in the case of the Sunderland extension, shares Network Rail tracks). The infrastructure remains very much "heavy rail."

It's a fascinating system and, to say that it is nearly 30 years old, has stood up extremely well to the passage of time. Although it's cars are dated compared to, say, Nottingham they are still perfectly acceptable.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

I think the last passenger closure was Balloch Pier in 1986, although I understand that it was a service with very little patronage other than for Loch Lomond cruises.

Speaking of passenger train withdrawals we've planned our October Amtrak event which goes (subject to last minute refinement):-

Fly to Boston

Downeaster to Portland and back - meaning that I've travelled by rail in Maine, my third last State.

Lake Shore Limited Boston - Chicago, where our party divides. I'll be having another ride on the CSSB, whereas others will be chasing down F40's on Metra.

I then do South West Chief to Alberquerque, doing Rail Runner, then continuing on the Chief to LA, while the others do California Zephyr, then South from Emeryville on a Capitols or San Jouquin service.

I'll kill time by covering locos on the Surfliners until we all assemble in San Diego to fly home.

I think that's more Amtrak than most US railfans have ever done...

Simon - is this a 'formally' organised tour, or just a group of friends organising it for themselves ?

Tony

[daveklepper]

I did get back to the source of American Civilization (Great Britain) before moving to Israel and had the real pleasure of renewing my aquaintance with the classic Blackpool trams and also rode the first of the new semi-light rail operations, Docklands and Tyne and Wear. But I am very happy now that I had sampled British steam in the land of the invention of the steam locomotive while main line steam passenger trains still were around, behind both a Gresley A4 and a Southern Bullard Pacific. Also, I suppose the Pullmans with their tea service are not around any more. I didn't come across any on my last visit. Rode both the Bournmouth Bell and the Brighton Bell, the latter the multiple-unit Pullman equipment.

For North American readers, a British Pullman was NOT A SLEEPING CAR. It was analagous to a USA Parlor car, with refreshments usually included in the fare. Seating was two on on side one on the other, with facing seats and a table between, on which the refreshments were served. Exterior paint was usually chocolate and cream, if my memory serves, and the interiors green plush with decorations on the seats and varnished woodwork everywhere else. There were all-Pullman trains and sometimes one or two on a regular train.

I did note on my last visit that there were still first-class and second-class coaches on many trains. But I understand that some of the private services are now all one-class.

[Simon Reed]

Tony - it's myself (manager for a home shopping company), Gordon Atkinson (manager for a company that makes Sonar equipment) and Tim (DRS driver) so far. Interested? Send a message off-group if so.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Also, I suppose the Pullmans with their tea service are not around any more.

Afraid so - the last one (Manchester-Euston) stopped running some years ago.

First class (and 'silver service' dining on some trains) is still around on long distance services, but most local/secondary/commuter trains are standard class only - and have been since the 1980's at least.

FM Rail has recently repainted a set of ex-Virgin 1st class Mk2 cars in the old 1960's diesel 'Blue Pullman' livery for upmarket charter train use - http://mark-herriott.fotopic.net/c820239.html

Tony

[oubliette]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Tony - it's myself (manager for a home shopping company), Gordon Atkinson (manager for a company that makes Sonar equipment) and Tim (DRS driver) so far. Interested? Send a message off-group if so.

Tim, know him well, top bloke.

[Murphy Siding]

My Dec. '05 issue of The Railway Magazine. courtesy of Simon Reed, talks about a "heritage railway". What is that, exactly?
Thanks

[Anonymous]

I would guess that the term "heritage railway" is now used for preserved lines - these are usually operated by volunteers and open to the public. The Severn Valley Railway and the Llangollen Railway would be two that spring to mind, both have been around for many years. There are probably hundreds ranging from twin-track near mainline setups (the Great Central Railway) to small dockside operations attached to another museum (the Bristol Industrial Museum) - if you type any of these into google.co.uk you should find plenty of information, they all have websites.

[oubliette]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

My Dec. '05 issue of The Railway Magazine. courtesy of Simon Reed, talks about a "heritage railway". What is that, exactly?
Thanks

Take a look at:

http://www.east-lancs-rly.co.uk/index2.php

Basically a railway that runs older trains or trains that in the main are not running on the main line any more. Many trains that run on heritage lines cannot run on the main line of the main network due to more stringent regulations. Some loco's however are able to run off a heritage site onto the mainline because they are main line certified.

Running a loco on a heritage railway is slightly different to running it on a main line. Heritage railways tend to be short and mainly for the tourist. The link above will take you to a preserved railway that runs both steam and diesel trains.

[Simon Reed]

Oubliette - I assume that you're the same person that has expressed an interest in the Alco S1 at Peterborough on the UK Alco group site.

If so - keep an eye on the site. The group committee are meeting in York on Saturday and hope to be able to announce a meeting for all interested parties shortly afterwards.

There may be a couple of "heritage railways" - a term I dislike immensely - you'll want to get involved with shortly!