British Railway Operations

[germanium]

Murphy - re mergers - to add to Simon's comments, the rail system for passenger purposes is divided into Franchises for each area, so although a company might have (say) two contiguous franchises, they would be considered as separate entities. It is possible for a company to be stripped of a franchise for poor performance, as happened recently to Connex in the South-East corner of England.

[Murphy Siding]

Interesting-I didn't know that CN owned EWS. I'm surprised it hasn't been *assimilated* with buckets of red paint.[;)]

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Interesting-I didn't know that CN owned EWS. I'm surprised it hasn't been *assimilated* with buckets of red paint.[;)]

Murphy, you didn't recognize the old Soo Line paint scheme, with the school colors of the University of Minnesota on the EWS diesels? What other railroads use that scheme, humm? Think Wisconsin Central Ltd. That is how CN came to own a controlling interest in EWS. Ed Burkhardt chose the paint scheme. So every railroad that Ed has been involved in uses that scheme. Montreal, Maine & Atlantic RR
Estee Raudtee (in Estonia) Rail Polska (in Poland). What color scheme does Tranz Rail (New Zealand) use? Ever think you would see that scheme on Russian built diesels?

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed
[

Tulyar 15. I'm still a member of the ITG and you may have had to put up with my stewarding on various tours in the late 80's and early 90's - when we still need your financial support can you think of a good reason for not still being a member?? E-mail me if there are any issues because I'm still quite involved.

I'm not sure why I lapsed my ITG membership. I certainly enjoyed going on their tours, especially the Sunday outings to industrial and preserved. My late Irish friend used to go on their tours to - that's how I met him. I still get details of their tours as I'm on Pathfinder Tours Mailing list. Perhaps I will re-join.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Also, up until the 1990's Irish Rail bought its carriages from British makers - examples of BR Mk2 and 3's are still in use though I'm not sure if any of the steam heated Cravens carriages are left.

I travelled in some of the "steam heated Cravens carriages" in October 2005 so they're probably still around, although I suspect only until DMU's replace them on the remaining branch-line duties.

Tony

(Just back from Canada - nice to see Toronto Union Station still has a tower controlling a huge array of dwarf colour light signals [:)] )

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Interesting-I didn't know that CN owned EWS. I'm surprised it hasn't been *assimilated* with buckets of red paint.[;)]

Murphy, you didn't recognize the old Soo Line paint scheme, with the school colors of the University of Minnesota on the EWS diesels? What other railroads use that scheme, humm? Think Wisconsin Central Ltd. That is how CN came to own a controlling interest in EWS. Ed Burkhardt chose the paint scheme. So every railroad that Ed has been involved in uses that scheme. Montreal, Maine & Atlantic RR
Estee Raudtee (in Estonia) Rail Polska (in Poland). What color scheme does Tranz Rail (New Zealand) use? Ever think you would see that scheme on Russian built diesels?

I knew Ed Burkhardt of WC fame was in on EWS. I guess I just figured he had found some (perhaps British) investors to bankroll the project, and let him run the railroad. Maybe there's a guy who could be tapped to run CN some day?

[Anonymous]

Cogload speaks.....

Tuylar 15 - I am not doubting your affinity or affection for things Irish; nor am I doubting the fact that the Irish are very nice. Indeed; Rugby trips over to Dublin have proven that they are very nice indeed...(hic) However a large majority may raise an eyebrow re: yr comments on sterling (especially as the republic had its own currency for many yrs) and how close they feel to "Britain". Thats all.....:-)

Murphy - EWS was formed by WC and 2 merchant banks (one Boston MA based, the other Geneva Switzerland based); when CN bought WC they ended up with EWS. Although there are hints of a stockmarket flotation for the firm as it is now making some wonga.

As for Franchises - HMG decides on the shape and scope of them. It seems that Merseytravel (thats Liverpool and area) may get its hands back on the rails in that area as an experiment. When they come up for renewal they maybe merged or split with other franchises (i.e. Central and Wessex/Thames and Great Western).

Incidentally if we had the amount of derailments whoich seem to afflict parts of the US network the entire railway would have been shut down by now. AND| finally; off topic but I am listening to Johnny Cash at the min - American IV. Fantastic Stuff - Hurt; Hung My Head and a great cover of the Ewan Macoll (father of the late much missed Kirsty) song "The first Time I Saw your face".

[Simon Reed]

I'd hinted a while ago that I'd heard rumours about EWS, which basically ran along the lines of flotation, so they could be a more attractive proposition for sale because CN are'nt really interested. What I found a little difficult to concile at the time was that a potentially interested party was said to be a consortium led by Royal Mail. I've since seen this suggestion in print in a reputable broadsheet - The Independent.

Nothing at all wrong with Johnny Cash, my man, although I prefer his one-time son-in-law whom I still consider to be one of the underrated giants of British popular music. His 1984 album "Cowboy Outfit" is one of our most played, especially when Lynne is out and I can dance about to it.

This is'nt a thread for music guessing games! The answer is Nick Lowe.

[Murphy Siding]

If CN didn't spinn off EWS when they bought WC, they must have thought it had some potential to either make money, or sell off at alater date, at a profit? I do now see what beaulieu says about the SOO line colors. Funny, that there wouldn't be a big uproar over foreign ownership of a British railroad, but maybe that just an Americanized perception.
For what it's worth, I'm a Johnny Cash fan from way back. I failed the bonus question, though-I would have said Rodney Crowell-ex husband of Roseanne Cash, who I'm also a fan of. Now there's a family with a lot of talent.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: If CN didn't spin off EWS when they bought WC, they must have thought it had some potential to either make money, or sell off at a later date, at a profit?

From memory, CN were interested in offloading their share of EWS at the time of the WC takeover but there weren't any takers at a sensible price - so they decided to turn it around first.

QUOTE: Funny, that there wouldn't be a big uproar over foreign ownership of a British railroad, but maybe that just an Americanized perception.

Basically, UK railfreight had been a barely-profitable or money-loosing business for years, so I think most people here reckoned that the consortium led by Ed Burkhardt was the best chance to turn it around (given Ed's track record and enthusiasm).

Tony (reaching for a Pink Floyd album as an antidote to Johnny Cash...)

[germanium]

I can't see any real future for short-haul freight in some areas - where I live (near the South-Western main line) most former freight facilities are now car parks, because of the expanding London commuterland. What is the opinion of others far more knowledgeable than I ?

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by owlsroost

QUOTE: If CN didn't spin off EWS when they bought WC, they must have thought it had some potential to either make money, or sell off at a later date, at a profit?

From memory, CN were interested in offloading their share of EWS at the time of the WC takeover but there weren't any takers at a sensible price - so they decided to turn it around first.

QUOTE: Funny, that there wouldn't be a big uproar over foreign ownership of a British railroad, but maybe that just an Americanized perception.

Basically, UK railfreight had been a barely-profitable or money-loosing business for years, so I think most people here reckoned that the consortium led by Ed Burkhardt was the best chance to turn it around (given Ed's track record and enthusiasm).

Tony (reaching for a Pink Floyd album as an antidote to Johnny Cash...)

Is there any advantage for someone with deep pockets(CN) to purchase a few other companies to build a more end-to-end railroad system? Kind of like trying to make short hauls into longer hauls? Or, is that thought completely opposite of how the system was envisioned to work?
Pink Floyd? That would be something of the opposite end of t he spectrum from Johnny Cash. Middle ground might somebody I like to listen to- Chris Rea?
(" I hear the train a comin'. It's a rollin' 'round the bend......")

[owlsroost]

There aren't any 'regional' railfreight operators in the UK - they all have nationwide operating licences/safety cases as far as I know (but the smaller ones don't actually operate everywhere, just where they have business).

Don't forget these aren't railroads in the US sense - they don't own any track, they just own/lease locomotives/freight cars and operate trains, so they are much closer to a trucking company in the way they operate than a traditional railroad (and are all competing directly with each other for business).

Tony

(and yes, I do listen to Chris Rea/The Eagles/Beach Boys etc as well - I chose Pink Floyd because it was the opposite end of the spectrum [:)] - did you see their reunion set at the recent Live 8 concert on TV - superb)

[Murphy Siding]

owlsroost: Thanks for the info. I guess I didn't quite get the concept right in my head. I was thinking of a railroad's ability to expand by way of purchase/mergers of other railroads. Given the open access raiway system, competition from trucks, and something of a history of low profits(?), what is the incentive for a company to get into railroading in Britain? What did Ed Burkhard see in it? Thanks


(worth noting that it does take a certain type of talent to arrange barking dog sounds into a song, and make them seem to belong there[:)])

[Anonymous]

There seems to be plenty of incentive at the minute for companies to obtain nationwide freight licences. I can think of EWS; Freightliner; GBRF; DRS; Jarvis; FM Rail. Plus you have Road Hauliers who just borrow a haulier which W.Malcolm does with DRS out of Grangemouth.

Railfreight did make cash; however it has traditionally been in the heavy industry area where it has made the cash. Coal and the like. The high volume low weight sector has been traditionally the difficult section to make cash. This is not helped by a bias toward the hauliers in terms of weight (though they have had their proposals for 60 and 84 tonne trucks chucked out); and the use of space on a very low marginal cost basis.

You can have hauls of less than 10 miles which make cash if the tonnage supports it and the flow is structured properly.

Album of the Day: A Slight Case of Overbombing by the Sisters of Mercy.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload
You can have hauls of less than 10 miles which make cash if the tonnage supports it and the flow is structured properly.

I've been trying to think of what you could haul (legally[;)]) less than 10 miles and make cash?

[Simon Reed]

The commodity that immediately springs to mind is coal.

Here in (cold, rainy) Yorkshire we had until recently the huge Selby pit. Nearly all of it's output was fed underground to a place called Gascoigne Wood (pronounced Gas-coin) then taken by rail to power plants locally - Ferrybridge, Drax and Eggborough. Ferrybridge, without looking it up, would be around 5 miles by rail from Gascoigne Wood, Eggborough perhaps 8.

Another flow was scrap metal from Attercliffe in Sheffield to Aldwarke in Rotherham - 5 miles maximum.

It's all in the "Freightmaster" book that Bealieau sent you. When you get my latest gift it'll get even clearer.

Tonight's "unwind after a bad day with a bottle of Merlot" album is Do It Yourself, by the Seahorses - John Squire at his blistering best!

[Simon Reed]

Having read my post, and those leading to it, two thoughts strike me. (Ouch!)

Merry -Go-Round. This was a concept developed in the 1960's under hero/villain Dr Richard Beeching (previously mentioned on this thread) whereby a loco and a string of HAA coal hoppers simply work backwards and forwards between pit and power plant.

On arrival at the pit the loco is put into notch (run) 1 and trundles it's train at low speed under the loader. At the power plant you slow speed your bottom-discharge hoppers over the dump then head back to the pit for another load.

The crew - driver only - could swap out at either end after their 8 hour shift and the only real interruption would be when the loco needed fuel and an exam, or if a hopper got damaged.

I believe that Knottingley men would do three Selby Drift - Eggborough turns in an 8 hour shift. I'm not sure how long the 56's would go without a refuel.

Thought 2 - Attercliffe is'nt just a scrapyard, it's the home of Sharp's, where I buy all of my American HO stuff. If any of the UK contingent on here are into modelling and fancy a trip to Huddersfield this weekend I'll be behind Boldon Junction on it's second last show - after 18 years - before retirement.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

The commodity that immediately springs to mind is coal.

Here in (cold, rainy) Yorkshire we had until recently the huge Selby pit. Nearly all of it's output was fed underground to a place called Gascoigne Wood (pronounced Gas-coin) then taken by rail to power plants locally - Ferrybridge, Drax and Eggborough. Ferrybridge, without looking it up, would be around 5 miles by rail from Gascoigne Wood, Eggborough perhaps 8.

Another flow was scrap metal from Attercliffe in Sheffield to Aldwarke in Rotherham - 5 miles maximum.

It's all in the "Freightmaster" book that Bealieau sent you. When you get my latest gift it'll get even clearer.

Tonight's "unwind after a bad day with a bottle of Merlot" album is Do It Yourself, by the Seahorses - John Squire at his blistering best!

And the railways can compete with trucks on hauls as short as that? .

[Anonymous]

Yes:

One bloke driving - Power Station - Pit - Power Station continuously. High Utilisation in both terms of wagons and locomotives (1). 5 Days a week - Up to 6 trains a day. There is currently a flow out of Leith Docks (Ed) to Cockenzie P.S. which must be all of I dunno 10 miles, if that. 2.5k tonnes per train.....kerrrrrrrchhhiiiiing. Plus if part of the run is on the main (line) Railfreight only had to pay marginal cost on that bit of railway. The key is the weight.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

Yes:

One bloke driving - Power Station - Pit - Power Station continuously. High Utilisation in both terms of wagons and locomotives (1). 5 Days a week - Up to 6 trains a day. There is currently a flow out of Leith Docks (Ed) to Cockenzie P.S. which must be all of I dunno 10 miles, if that. 2.5k tonnes per train.....kerrrrrrrchhhiiiiing. Plus if part of the run is on the main (line) Railfreight only had to pay marginal cost on that bit of railway. The key is the weight.

So, if I understand the open access system correctly,the train op company would have to *bid*(?) on the uses of those certain tracks, at thoses certain times,5 days a week, up to 6 trains a day? Also, I'm having trouble visualizing how this train could compete with trucks? Granted, I'm viewing it from an American perspective. Here, anything under about 400 miles goes more economically on a semi-truck. Are Briti***rains that much more efficient than (North)American trains? Or perhaps trucks over here are more efficient? As always, thanks.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

Yes:

One bloke driving - Power Station - Pit - Power Station continuously. High Utilisation in both terms of wagons and locomotives (1). 5 Days a week - Up to 6 trains a day. There is currently a flow out of Leith Docks (Ed) to Cockenzie P.S. which must be all of I dunno 10 miles, if that. 2.5k tonnes per train.....kerrrrrrrchhhiiiiing. Plus if part of the run is on the main (line) Railfreight only had to pay marginal cost on that bit of railway. The key is the weight.

So, if I understand the open access system correctly,the train op company would have to *bid*(?) on the uses of those certain tracks, at thoses certain times,5 days a week, up to 6 trains a day? Also, I'm having trouble visualizing how this train could compete with trucks? Granted, I'm viewing it from an American perspective. Here, anything under about 400 miles goes more economically on a semi-truck. Are Briti***rains that much more efficient than (North)American trains? Or perhaps trucks over here are more efficient? As always, thanks.

Murphy, think how many trucks to shift 15,000 tonnes per day, then think how many drivers that many trucks would require . My quick calculations say 625 round trips per day, figure 12 twelve trips per truck, requires 52 trucks and 52 Drivers. Drivers = $$$$$

[Tulyar15]

Murphy, the other factor against trucks here is that roads are more congested and there is growing opposition to freight being moved by roads. Until recenlty grants were available to encourage firms to invest in rail sidings so they could ship goods by rail instead of truck. It is also hoped that investment in cheaper technology such as these Freigh Multiple Units (FMUs) which were recentrly trialled on timber traffic in Wales will help transfer more traffic to rail. (I gather the Scottish Parliament has given a grant to one of the freight operators to start using these vehicles in Scotland).

Going back to short flows, one of the shortes is on the Isle of Sheppey in Kent. (This is an island in the Thames estuary which is connected to the main land by a road/rail bridge where the central section can be raised to allow ships to pass thru). Steel is shipped by rail from the scrapyard at Queenborough on the island a mere 5 miles to the steelworks at Sheerness, which is the terminus of the branch line which links these places with the main land, joining the former London, Chatham and Dover line at Sittingbourne. The steelworks at Sheerness also receives scrap steel by rail from other scapyards on the mainland. For those who think that the former Southern Region of BR is just an electric tramway with commuter trains, a visit to the Isle of Sheppey will make you think again! In addition to the above plants, the Paper Works at Sittingbourne is served by a siding from the branch too. The branch to Sheerness was electrified in the 1960's as part of the Kent Coast electrification scheme and it has a passenger service too. Except at peak hours on Mon-Fri this just consists of an electric unit shuttling between Sittingbourne and Sheerness, however the last time I visited the latter the terminus still boasted two platforms and a run round loop so locos could run round.

Another short flow is the couple of miles from Newport Dock to Fifoots (formerly Uskmouth) power station. Imported coal is moved between the two and for this short trip a class 08 switcher can do the job!

[Murphy Siding]

Now, that makes sense. I was thinking([(-D]) a little hard, I'm afraid. There is a little railroad in my city, The Ellis & Eastern, that hauls gravel from a their quarry on the west part of town, to their cement plant on the east side of town-total distance of 4 to 5 miles. In this case, the railroad,quarry and cement plant are owned by the same party.
In the instances cited above, would that be the case? Does the power plant, or steel mill own the train equipment, or is it all contracted out to a third party?
Thanks

[Hugh Jampton]

The train equipment is owned by one of the leasing companies who rent it to the train operating companies who also rent train paths from the infrastructure controller to run a service for the generating company is the short unpunctuated answer.

[Tulyar15]

The steel works and scrapyard I mentioned above on the Isle of Sheppey are separate companies that just happen to be close together and are connected by the national network. I assume EWS operates the trains between them.

But the scrapyard also has its own dock for export and import of different scrap metals and this is linked to its yard by its own standard gauge rail line, with its own locos and train crews. The Sheeness steel works can only process certain types of steel so the scrapyard exports the types which the Sheerness plant cannot process and also imports the types it can.

[Anonymous]

In Briti***rain planning some peoples view of goods trains range from bad tempered tolleration to outright loathing. Leith - Cockenzie trains are on the ECML for about 5 miles, that can be lived with, but when you are trying to path a coal train out of Hunterston going to Drax, through Paisley, across the West Coast Main Line at Polmadie, round the Edinburgh sub and down the East Coast Main Line to be handed over North Eastern zone at Berwick to be told it has been rejected because it clashes with a train near York, you start to think do we realy need this traffic and would it not be better to land it at Hull.

After that rant the most productive frieght trains in terms of ease of planning and utilisation of resources tend to be MGR, Freightliners and nominated freights (like mgr but not just minerals). Anything else and you are getting back to the possition of Britain being the worlds biggest marshalling yard like it was in the 1950's.

[Anonymous]

Townsend you work for EWS then?

The answer maybe lack of terminal capacity and a government scared witless that the policy of dash for gas has seen large canards now roosting in the attic and wondering what to do next. It is unlikely that ABP would invest mega cash when nobody knows how many coal fired ps will see the grim repaer over the next 10 years. Besides Scots coal is low in sulphur and there is an enormo seam waiting to be skimmed. Cheaply. As well as the Hunterston stuff.

[Simon Reed]

Sorry, U.S. folk, but this is turning into a bit of a UK subscribers thread via Wisconsin!

ABP won't invest in ANYTHING unless it's absolutely written in stone. There are actually an incredible number of deep water ports on the West Coast of Britain - Barrow being a good example - with the infrastructure in place for direct ship/rail transhipment.

At present we pay - via HM Government, then to BNFL - for Barrow to be dredged to a fairly restricted draught to let James Fisher's boats in with spent uranium rods.

With a deeper dredge, and some alterations at Carnforth, you could put almost anything in at Barrow and save a day's sailing to Hunterston. Plenty of paths on the Furness, and WCML Carnforth - Crewe at least.

A thumbnail example. The bottom line is a failure to make the left hand understand what the right hand is doing.

Where did the "what are we listening to" subtext go? Currnetly "Hotel San Jose" by Go Go Market, which is basically a Chuck Prophet album with Stephanie Finch vocals. Am I boring you?

[Murphy Siding]

U.S. folks do enjoy reading it. Just don't always understand it.[:)]