British Railway Operations

[Anonymous]

The 153's are awful - they are conversions of the 2-car class 155 sprinter sets (an extra cab was added on the inner ends). The main problems I have with them are with the seating - I'm just under 6ft and my knees end up jammed against the ribs in the back of the seat in front, said seats are also very cramped (no elbow room at all) and poorly padded. Add in the fact that shorter people can't see out, and the noise, and I suspect the real intention behind them is to encourage road use! The older DMUs were a lot nicer - still noisy at times but far better seating and if you were lucky enough to bag a seat at the front of the lead car it was almost as good as a cab ride - you could watch the line ahead over the driver's shoulder. Luckily plenty of survivors can be found on preserved lines nationwide.

I'm not aware of any problems with the HST beyond age - Virgin got rid of their fleet when they bought new Voyager and Pendolino sets hence the mothballed examples. A few power cars and trailers have moved to other operators but there are still plenty of spares. The real problem is one of cost - a HST has two big power units and is designed to run at around 100mph, so operating them on a branch line would cost a fortune and might well cause problems with the power cars over time due to the repeated stopping and slow overall speeds. It would be rather like trying to drive an F1 car through city traffic!

[Tulyar15]

The charter train operator "Cotswold Rail" has acquired a number of HST's for charter trains. Given their Route Availability Number of 5, as opposed to that of 8 for the class 67's (default loco for charters nowadays) an HST can not only go places a 67 can't (such as Mallaig, Pwllheli - are you listening charter operators !) but will incur lower access charges. Gatwick Express revealed recently that they had nearly hired some of these stored HST's due to problems with the power supplies - apparrently their new EMU's guzzle too much power despite the recent power supply upgrade on the southern.

Hull Trains have said they might acquire an HST or two since if their business carries on growing they may need extra stock. With Voyagers/Meridians not being in production at the moment these spare HST's might be the only option.

[mhurley87f]

Let's not forget just how reliable they are, too. Having two engines confers huge reliability benefits to the operators. If one fails, the survivor can certainly cope on almost all routes.

As far as I'm aware, Fishguard Harbour was one route where BR, and now First GW, have been loath to run a train with a dead power car because of the 1 in 47 climb back out.

Hwyl,

Martin.

[Anonymous]

I must admit to having a few palpitations watching:

1 engine powered up HST engine climbing the 1/60 bank in the leaf fall from a standing start on the down to PNZ. Voyagers are worse. Sometime ago, when the single line was still extant from Probus the last HST of the eve failed approaching; crawled in at 30 and just made the bank at around 3MPH. I have a tail light camera and was watching with some trepidation. There was an amused Voyager driver watching from my Inner Home as the chaos ensued!

[Hugh Jampton]

Here's one in the rain on Sunday as the sun was shining.



hahahaha,, thanks to spankybird I can post pictures. (insert one of they smiley face thingys here)

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

I must admit to having a few palpitations watching:

1 engine powered up HST engine climbing the 1/60 bank in the leaf fall from a standing start on the down to PNZ. Voyagers are worse. Sometime ago, when the single line was still extant from Probus the last HST of the eve failed approaching; crawled in at 30 and just made the bank at around 3MPH. I have a tail light camera and was watching with some trepidation. There was an amused Voyager driver watching from my Inner Home as the chaos ensued!

Still if the HST had got stock at least they could summon the class 57 from Penzance that works the overnight sleeper to assist. I understand Virgin have made one of their 57 "Thunderbirds" available for such duties on the S. Devon switchback.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Given their Route Availability Number of 5, as opposed to that of 8 for the class 67's (default loco for charters nowadays) an HST can not only go places a 67 can't (such as Mallaig, Pwllheli - are you listening charter operators !) but will incur lower access charges.

As far as I know, the problem with using HST's for charters isn't power car Route Availability, it's the C3 profile passenger car clearances - so they can only run on routes cleared for HST/Mk3 running (i.e. their current/old stomping grounds plus approved diversionary routes).

In reality this is most of the system, but I suspect Mallaig and Pwllheli are probably out of reach.

I guess this also the reason the charter operators don't seem to be interested in the ex-Virgin loco-hauled Mk3 stock - unlike the C1 profile Mk1/Mk2 stock it's not 'go anywhere'.

Tony

P.S. Nice photo Hugh [:)]

[Simon Reed]

Cumbrian Coast is out of bounds for C3 stock as well - in other words quite a few popular charter routes are precluded.

Is that Dore Hugh?

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed


Is that Dore Hugh?

Cold...

[Murphy Siding]

Last night, my 2 younger sons and I tried to watch a DVD of a movie titled "Millions". I say *tried*, to watch, because the DVD had problems, and then stopped completely half way through. In the movie, there is are scenes of British passenger trains speeding through the countryside. (The bad guys toss a bag full of money off one of the trains.) Has anybody seen this movie? I'm curious where this was filmed. There is also, a scene inside a big passenger terminal. Also, an odd question,as it pertains to one of the plot elements in the movie: Is business in Britain conducted in pounds, or Euros?

Thanks.

[Anonymous]

We still work in £s here - Euroland starts across the Channel or across the Irish Sea. In the current political climate I can't see us adopting the Euro any time soon - there's a lot of very entrenched opposition that won't be swayed by any argument. Looking up the film on IMDB suggests a plotline based on what happened in some Euro-adopting states. Apparently an awful lot was spent on home improvements in France (judging by the massive growth in DIY chains over there in the last few years) to avoid having to declare the Francs stashed under the mattress to the authorities!

I couldn't find out where the filming took place - we still have a fair number of big passenger terminals though. At a guess they'd probably have used either King's Cross, Paddington, or Waterloo (all in London). King's Cross was used for the Harry Potter films so it's obviously suited to film work.

[Anonymous]

Ahhh. The worlds finest diesel passenger train. period. Saved Intercity travel in the Uk and created an entire brand and marketing strategy. The nose cone effect following the sparks effect. Approaching 30yrs old some of those and still the finest piece of kit on britains railways.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by owlsroost

QUOTE: Given their Route Availability Number of 5, as opposed to that of 8 for the class 67's (default loco for charters nowadays) an HST can not only go places a 67 can't (such as Mallaig, Pwllheli - are you listening charter operators !) but will incur lower access charges.

As far as I know, the problem with using HST's for charters isn't power car Route Availability, it's the C3 profile passenger car clearances - so they can only run on routes cleared for HST/Mk3 running (i.e. their current/old stomping grounds plus approved diversionary routes).

In reality this is most of the system, but I suspect Mallaig and Pwllheli are probably out of reach.

Tony

P.S. Nice photo Hugh [:)]

I am aware of the restrictions on Mk 3 stock but I think they mostly apply to the former Southern Region. This was the reason I believe the idea of using ex Virgin Mk3 on domestic CTRL services was quashed - they're out of the gauge for the former SER lines in Kent. Oddly enough, one of the few places they CAN run there is the Hastings line - when the electrification was inauguarated the Royal Train, which includes Mk 3s in its consist ran over the line. This summer the Royal Train visited the Cambrian main line and was top and tailed by class 67's!.

The class 156 DMU's which are or have been regularly used on both the Cambrian and the Mallaig extension have an identical profile to the Mk3 so as far as I know a loco hauled Mk 3 can go anywhere that a 156 can.

[Anonymous]

First Group won the FGW franchise. Sleeper saved - fares rising 10% for the next 5 years to pay for it. Fun.

[Tulyar15]

I saw their press release on their website yesterday

(http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/home/story.php?item=133&ref=home)

It sounds fairly upbeat - the proposed cuts on the Oxford - Bicester have not taken place and by and large First Group seem to be going for growth. I've e-mailed them to ask whether the Chippenham - Westbury line is also safe as that was proposed for service cuts too. I gather from a friend that the half-hourly Paddington - Cardiff service is also safe (this too was proposed for reduction to hourly).

[daveklepper]

Glad to know the sleeper will still be in operation. Used London - Glascow and London - Manchester in 1962.

[owlsroost]

Quote from the FGW press release - "Simultaneously the power cars will be overhauled and fitted with new quieter and more environmentally friendly engines which will provide greater efficiency and reliability"

I presume this means fitting the MTU engines currently on trial - haven't seen/heard one of the modified HST power cars in the flesh yet, but everyone says they are very quiet.

Good for passengers, but from a railfan perspective it's a bit unfortunate - the 'head out of the window' noise experience behind a Valenta engined power car accelerating hard is one of the few bits of old style passenger train railfanning it's still possible to enjoy in the UK on normal service trains [8D]

Tony

[Tulyar15]

I've seen the MTU enginedd power cars in service a number of times and they are amazingly quiet. Mind you, I've yet to see how they cope with some of the banks west of Exeter.

According to a report in yesterday's "Independant" newspapers FirstGroup are not only putting on extra services on the new Greater Western franchise but they'll be paying a premium to the the government of £100 million per annum. Given that the Wessex services are part of what was the Regional sector of BR (which required subsidy) I shall be interested to see if they manage to achieve their financial targets.

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

I've seen the MTU enginedd power cars in service a number of times and they are amazingly quiet. Mind you, I've yet to see how they cope with some of the banks west of Exeter.

According to a report in yesterday's "Independant" newspapers FirstGroup are not only putting on extra services on the new Greater Western franchise but they'll be paying a premium to the the government of £100 million per annum. Given that the Wessex services are part of what was the Regional sector of BR (which required subsidy) I shall be interested to see if they manage to achieve their financial targets.

Of course they will,,, they'll just put the fares up..

[Simon Reed]

I was talking with a man who knows yesterday.

Yes, the whole lot of the GW power cars are being MTU'd.

He also suggested that GNER will be taking on more sets soon, with at least three to be strategically positioned as Thunderbirds each day.

A further bit of speculation he raised, relevant to this thread a couple of pages ago, is that one of the stored Freightliner 57's is to be used as a testbed to see if there's a means of improving the EDHP from an EMD645 unit, and also to see if the adhesion problems on 66's can be addressed.

[owlsroost]

Simon - what does "EDHP" mean (I haven't come across that abbreviation before) ?

Out of interest, what are the adhesion problems with the 66's ?

Tony

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

I was talking with a man who knows yesterday.

Yes, the whole lot of the GW power cars are being MTU'd.

My mole at Landore will be well and truly cheesed off at that snippet. The last time I met him at our Rugby Club, the language he used when talking about the MTU engines was enough to make a Prop Forward blanch !

Martin

[Murphy Siding]

Cogload: I read your other post, about working on Christmas.( Bummer!) I have a question-from your posts, I gather you work for a railway. What job do you do? I tried to figure it out from the Christmas post, but it eluded me.

Thanks

[Simon Reed]

EDHP is Estimated Drawbar Horsepower - i.e. what you've got on tap to shift the train once the ancillaries are removed from the equation.

I understand that Freightliner are of the opinion that the 645's output is somehow being lost in translation, and want to address this.

In certain rail conditions 66's are prone to slipping, or at least attempting to slip. They were very problematic over the S&C last Autumn and, several years ago, had to be replaced by 37's north of Mossend.

I presume - I'm not sure - that there's a slip control mechanism on 66's, in which case the effect would simply be to reduce power.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

I was talking with a man who knows yesterday.

Yes, the whole lot of the GW power cars are being MTU'd.

He also suggested that GNER will be taking on more sets soon, with at least three to be strategically positioned as Thunderbirds each day.

A further bit of speculation he raised, relevant to this thread a couple of pages ago, is that one of the stored Freightliner 57's is to be used as a testbed to see if there's a means of improving the EDHP from an EMD645 unit, and also to see if the adhesion problems on 66's can be addressed.

I am curious about your first point improving the EDHP of the locomotive. I know that here in the US when you place a traction alternator(or generator) behind a diesel engine that it wasn't specifically designed for you frequently run into problems matching torque curve of the diesel to output from the alternator. This is what plagued most of the large Caterpillar reengined locomotives in the US.
Aren't the 57/0s equipped with traction alternators donated by Class 56 locomotives? How closely does the torque curve of the Ruston diesel used in the Class 56 match that of the 645E3. Did Brush develop a new load regulator
for the package or did they just keep the original. Didn't the Ruston engine have a maximum RPM of about 1100? The GM engine has a maximum RPM of 900.
They probably would have been better off putting a GM AR10 alternator behing the 645.

Regarding the Class 66 wheelslip problem, there are a lot of factors involved in wheelslip, wheel profile, weight and balance etc. The system is designed to have a controlled slip of about 17 % which produces the greatest pull. The wheelslip control is managed by a microprocessor and can be configured by software. But because of differences between US and UK (and Euro) practices
what works here most likely will not work there.

[Simon Reed]

I'm afraid that I lack the technical panache to elaborate.

I know what happens but I don't know why....

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Didn't the Ruston engine have a maximum RPM of about 1100?

The Ruston 16RK3CT in the 56 was rated at 3250hp at 900rpm (according to my stock book).

In relation to the 66's, I wonder if the modified/lightened version of the radial-steering truck doesn't work as well under a much lighter (compared to an SDxx) locomotive - in terms of keeping all wheels in good contact with the rails and minimising weight transfer between axles.

I think that the EMD wheelslip control (from memory) works at the truck or locomotive level, which is somewhat less sophisticated than the system on the Brush-built class 60's which controls each axle independantly.

Any comments Beaulieu ?

Tony

(and thanks for the clarification Simon)

[Simon Reed]

Tony - ***ed good theory.

Many of my contacts are Healey Mills/Midland Road men (although the guy who gave me the tip off about the GW Power Cars works for LNWR at Crewe.)

They did'nt sign 58's, but as far as going uphill is concerned - especially the S&C although the Calder Valley is vicious in places - they'd take a 60, 56 or heavyweight 37 in preference to a 66.

From experience 47's suffered a bit with adhesion problems. I remember spending the best part of an hour trying to climb away from Creswell Junction behind 47401. This may indicate a weight distribution issue that has simply been perpetuated on the 57's.

[owlsroost]

Mmm, thinking back to summer saturdays in the 1970's at Birmingham NS, I certainly never saw any driver try the sort of storming departure with a 47 that I once witnessed by a 'Peak' + 10 Mk1's - a 30 foot column of exhaust smoke and the last coach rolling and swaying over the curves at the east end of the station (15mph speed limit - sorry, must have missed that sign......[:)]

Tony

[Anonymous]

Ok, I've tried Google, Wikipedia, etc but had no luck, so maybe someone here could help. Can anyone say which end of a Class 86 electric is No. 1 end? I'm in the midst of adding DCC to a Hornby model and need to know which end is which so it'll behave properly! Thanks in advance for any help!