British Railway Operations

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

With the Class 66 GM made the pu***o get it certified ahead of any orders so when companies like Short Lines came looking, the loco was fully certified and ready, just look at the troubles Siemens has had in getting the ES64F4 certified in Italy. Also the Class 66 had one big advantage in being a low tech DC motored locomotive, in many countries the 3-phase AC Drives are causing signal immunization problems
which the Class 66 avoids. The Blue Tiger idea is still alive from Bombardier just too expensive to be very popular. When Vossloh bought the Alstom plant in Valencia, Spain one of the requirements was that the license to build EMD powered locomotives could be transfered. Vossloh and EMD are teaming up to build a more powerful 3.3 MW locomotive sized to European clearances for next summer using the V16 version of the 710G EMD engine.

Does certification in one European Union country allow for easy certification in all EU countries?

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

With the Class 66 GM made the pu***o get it certified ahead of any orders so when companies like Short Lines came looking, the loco was fully certified and ready, just look at the troubles Siemens has had in getting the ES64F4 certified in Italy. Also the Class 66 had one big advantage in being a low tech DC motored locomotive, in many countries the 3-phase AC Drives are causing signal immunization problems
which the Class 66 avoids. The Blue Tiger idea is still alive from Bombardier just too expensive to be very popular. When Vossloh bought the Alstom plant in Valencia, Spain one of the requirements was that the license to build EMD powered locomotives could be transfered. Vossloh and EMD are teaming up to build a more powerful 3.3 MW locomotive sized to European clearances for next summer using the V16 version of the 710G EMD engine.

Does certification in one European Union country allow for easy certification in all EU countries?

In some countries yes, in other countries no. German, The Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria, and the Scandanavian countries accept most of each others test data. France and Italy don't tend to accept much of anything not prepared just for them.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

With the Class 66 GM made the pu***o get it certified ahead of any orders so when companies like Short Lines came looking, the loco was fully certified and ready, just look at the troubles Siemens has had in getting the ES64F4 certified in Italy. Also the Class 66 had one big advantage in being a low tech DC motored locomotive, in many countries the 3-phase AC Drives are causing signal immunization problems
which the Class 66 avoids. The Blue Tiger idea is still alive from Bombardier just too expensive to be very popular. When Vossloh bought the Alstom plant in Valencia, Spain one of the requirements was that the license to build EMD powered locomotives could be transfered. Vossloh and EMD are teaming up to build a more powerful 3.3 MW locomotive sized to European clearances for next summer using the V16 version of the 710G EMD engine.

Does certification in one European Union country allow for easy certification in all EU countries?

In some countries yes, in other countries no. German, The Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria, and the Scandanavian countries accept most of each others test data. France and Italy don't tend to accept much of anything not prepared just for them.

Why is that? Aren't the EU countries geared toward working together on things?

[beaulieu]

When it suits them. In spite of all the countries being "European" they can't give up what makes them each different. i.e. the French must be "French", the Italians must be "Italian", and the Spanish must be "Spanish".

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

I wonder what engine the replacement for our diesel HST (HST2) will use? Will it be the Paxman VP185 or the MTU one being tried out by Gt. Western. The Aussies have already re-engined their XPT's (an HST clone built down under but with British made components) with VP185's. If these power HST there's a fighting chance we might see a revival of the British rolling stock industry. Iarnrod Eireann have even indicated they might buy a few HST2;s.

I just hope it has proper power cars like the current one, rather than underfloor engines. Part of the reason the HST is a finer train than the "replacement" Voyagers et al is that having seperate power cars means little or no noise and vibration in the passenger areas.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: I wonder what engine the replacement for our diesel HST (HST2) will use? Will it be the Paxman VP185 or the MTU one being tried out by Gt. Western.

From what I've read I'd expect Cummins to be interested too - they apparently had reservations about the performance of their engine running at the 1500 rpm needed for re-engining current HST power cars, but that wouldn't be an issue for a new (HST2) design.

Tony

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

With the Class 66 GM made the pu***o get it certified ahead of any orders so when companies like Short Lines came looking, the loco was fully certified and ready, just look at the troubles Siemens has had in getting the ES64F4 certified in Italy. Also the Class 66 had one big advantage in being a low tech DC motored locomotive, in many countries the 3-phase AC Drives are causing signal immunization problems
which the Class 66 avoids. The Blue Tiger idea is still alive from Bombardier just too expensive to be very popular. When Vossloh bought the Alstom plant in Valencia, Spain one of the requirements was that the license to build EMD powered locomotives could be transfered. Vossloh and EMD are teaming up to build a more powerful 3.3 MW locomotive sized to European clearances for next summer using the V16 version of the 710G EMD engine.

From reading the context of several posts, I think I've figured out what DB and SNCF stand for. But, what is a Blue tiger?

Thanks

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

With the Class 66 GM made the pu***o get it certified ahead of any orders so when companies like Short Lines came looking, the loco was fully certified and ready, just look at the troubles Siemens has had in getting the ES64F4 certified in Italy. Also the Class 66 had one big advantage in being a low tech DC motored locomotive, in many countries the 3-phase AC Drives are causing signal immunization problems
which the Class 66 avoids. The Blue Tiger idea is still alive from Bombardier just too expensive to be very popular. When Vossloh bought the Alstom plant in Valencia, Spain one of the requirements was that the license to build EMD powered locomotives could be transfered. Vossloh and EMD are teaming up to build a more powerful 3.3 MW locomotive sized to European clearances for next summer using the V16 version of the 710G EMD engine.

Does certification in one European Union country allow for easy certification in all EU countries?

In some countries yes, in other countries no. German, The Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria, and the Scandanavian countries accept most of each others test data. France and Italy don't tend to accept much of anything not prepared just for them.

Why is that? Aren't the EU countries geared toward working together on things?

The European Technical Standards for Interoperability (TSIs) seek to provide a common rail infrastructure (track, electrification, signalling, etc.) and vehicle and operational interfaces (platforms, loading gauge, rule book etc.) so that trains from any member state should be able to travel anywhere on certain strategic routes that have been defined by the EU, and are referred to as the TENs (Trans European Networks). There are a web site with proper explanation of it all as it's a bit compex, and a full description and that would be an essay I don't have time to write at the moment.
http://europa.eu.int/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l24015.htm

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

With the Class 66 GM made the pu***o get it certified ahead of any orders so when companies like Short Lines came looking, the loco was fully certified and ready, just look at the troubles Siemens has had in getting the ES64F4 certified in Italy. Also the Class 66 had one big advantage in being a low tech DC motored locomotive, in many countries the 3-phase AC Drives are causing signal immunization problems
which the Class 66 avoids. The Blue Tiger idea is still alive from Bombardier just too expensive to be very popular. When Vossloh bought the Alstom plant in Valencia, Spain one of the requirements was that the license to build EMD powered locomotives could be transfered. Vossloh and EMD are teaming up to build a more powerful 3.3 MW locomotive sized to European clearances for next summer using the V16 version of the 710G EMD engine.

From reading the context of several posts, I think I've figured out what DB and SNCF stand for. But, what is a Blue tiger?

Thanks

A Blue Tiger is a loco developed jointly by GE and ADTranz (now Bombardier eh).
https://www.getransportation.com/general/freight_rail/models/bluetiger.asp is the website,
and a piccy is at
http://www.locopage.net/ktm-26102.jpg

[Murphy Siding]

Hugh Jampton: Thanks for the info, and the links.
I had figured that the EU would have come up with a system to streamline railway operations between members. Strange that there isn't one common agency to certify locomotives for use on all EU members' rails.

I had wondered why GE wasn't in the European locomotive business . The Blue Tiger links explains that they are allready working on it. A few posts above, someone mentioned that the Blue Tiger may be too expensive? Any thought on that?

Thanks

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Hugh Jampton: Thanks for the info, and the links.
I had figured that the EU would have come up with a system to streamline railway operations between members. Strange that there isn't one common agency to certify locomotives for use on all EU members' rails.

I had wondered why GE wasn't in the European locomotive business . The Blue Tiger links explains that they are allready working on it. A few posts above, someone mentioned that the Blue Tiger may be too expensive? Any thought on that?

Thanks

That someone was me, Murphy. The Blue Tiger is a AC4400CW in European clothing. Now the Class 66 is a SD69 in European Clothing. Now the Blue Tiger has more haulage capacity of course, now most of the trains that these diesels are hauling are Intermodal trains of about 1800 tonnes (Metric) or about 2000 tons US maximum. Many weigh less. The big problem is to get the Blue Tiger certified in more countries. To give you an example the Alstom Prima failed to get certification to operate in Germany this past week for excessive lateral track forces. As you can imagine the Blue Tiger weighs considerably more than the Class 66 even though the Class 66 has a larger fuel tank. The EMD patented radial truck design also lowers track forces, although both the Blue Tiger and Class 66 a certified to lower maximum speeds than the Alstom Prima electric.
But weight and truck (bogie) length are important factors in track forces. GM was willing to underwrite the costs of certification in Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden, and Norway because their potential market is larger, while Bombardier
only sees the German market as big enough to be worth the costs of certifying the Blue Tiger, although they are considering the Polish market. EMD wants to be certified in France, Poland, and Italy as well.

[Simon Reed]

My understanding was that "Blue Tiger" was pretty much intended as a testbed for a variety of concepts, with the whole sponsored to a large extent by DB with Railion in mind.

Any production model, therefore, would presumably be a little more "refined" and adaptable to most Continental European standards.

I have to say that I could'nt learn as much off any European forum as I am off this thread. I have a great disdain for most internet forums anyway but I think it's time to thank all the other regular contributors for their insightful responses, and MurphySiding for fuelling the fire. Pat on the back, folks!

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

My understanding was that "Blue Tiger" was pretty much intended as a testbed for a variety of concepts, with the whole sponsored to a large extent by DB with Railion in mind.

Any production model, therefore, would presumably be a little more "refined" and adaptable to most Continental European standards.

I have to say that I could'nt learn as much off any European forum as I am off this thread. I have a great disdain for most internet forums anyway but I think it's time to thank all the other regular contributors for their insightful responses, and MurphySiding for fuelling the fire. Pat on the back, folks!

Yes, I would think that the Blue Tiger would have been refined further, but there seems to be a parting of the ways between Bombardier and GE. Bombardier is developing a new Diesel locomotive to compete with the Siemens Eurorunner which has been gaining ground recently. GE seems to be a bit indifferent to the European Market at the moment. One problem for the Blue Tiger is that it was built around the GE 7FDL diesel which no longer meets the current US Emission Standards and presumeably cannot meet the newest EU Standards either. It will be interesting to see how the new Euro 4000 joint venture between Vossloh and EMD works out. Vossloh is the most successful diesel builder in Europe and I think EMD is wise to work together with them.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

I wonder what engine the replacement for our diesel HST (HST2) will use? Will it be the Paxman VP185 or the MTU one being tried out by Gt. Western. The Aussies have already re-engined their XPT's (an HST clone built down under but with British made components) with VP185's. If these power HST there's a fighting chance we might see a revival of the British rolling stock industry. Iarnrod Eireann have even indicated they might buy a few HST2;s.

I just hope it has proper power cars like the current one, rather than underfloor engines. Part of the reason the HST is a finer train than the "replacement" Voyagers et al is that having seperate power cars means little or no noise and vibration in the passenger areas.

Yes, the plan is that HST2 will have a locomotive (power car) at each end, like the present HST's

With TOC's likely to have to run longer trains (6+ cars) the economics swings back in favour of loco operation rather than under floor engined DMU's.

[owlsroost]

I guess you could sum up the situation with the class 66 just by saying "it works" - i.e. it's a relatively simple, reliable workhorse with good fuel range.
If your business is moving freight around at the lowest cost then isn't this what you need ?

The problem that European manufacturers have is that (due to the large amount of electrification) the market for main-line diesel locos in Europe is quite small compared to the US, so they can't get the economies of scale or the amount of development feedback that EMD or GE have with their home market. Combined with the the tendency for each customer to want something different, it results in diesel locos being built in small numbers to a relatively untried design each time. As a consequence they tend to be expensive and have lots of teething troubles (this isn't a reflection on the engineering skills of the manufacturers - it's just that you don't really get to find all the bugs until the customers start using it, however much testing you do).

Of course, if it's electric traction you need.....(please Amtrak - next time insist on buying an Americanised version of something proven elsewhere rather than off a drawing board - it worked very well with the AEM7...)

One thing I muse on sometimes is why Siemens has never seemed to be interested in a two-way partnership with EMD (given that they've supplied/licensed AC traction technology to EMD for years). I think they were rumored to be a potential buyer of EMD some years ago but the deal didn't happen in the end.

I think Vossloh partnering with EMD is definitely a good idea for them - otherwise they'd be competing with EMD in the main-line freight area and probably loosing....

Tony

[Anonymous]

The TSI standards and the Railway Agency will go the wqay of all great European Projects. I.e. Halfway. The Platforms bit makes me giggle. Still ythe French got the HQ for the Agency which all that matters.

A few moons ago before I retired to working with long levers and block bells I was a whippersnapper with EWS and they took the 66's off the Ore Trains out of Immingham for Scunny because 1) they were too big and 2) they couldn't hanld ethe steep gradient out of the ore docks branch. I have no idea if that has changed.

As has been mentioned above there should be a drive to standardise railway locomotives and product lines for passenger chuffas as much as possible - why? Because it is cheaper. Lower Unit Costs all round. Boring, Simple and Effective.

[Murphy Siding]

Simon: Maybe that makes me a "basher"?[:)]

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload
[A few moons ago before I retired to working with long levers and block bells I was a whippersnapper with EWS and they took the 66's off the Ore Trains out of Immingham for Scunny because 1) they were too big and 2) they couldn't hanld ethe steep gradient out of the ore docks branch. I have no idea if that has changed.

What did they replace the 66's with? I should think 60's would be the only alternative? They're better at hill climbing. A 66 on the steeply graded Ebbw Vale ("Ebbw" is pronounced "Eb - oo" for those not familiar with Welsh place names) had to be assisted when it got stuck whereas a 60 had successfully restarted a heavier train at the same spot.

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload
As has been mentioned above there should be a drive to standardise railway locomotives and product lines for passenger chuffas as much as possible - why? Because it is cheaper. Lower Unit Costs all round. Boring, Simple and Effective.

That's why the 66 has become the standard loco for freight and the 170 the standard DMU for passenger, though the Voyager could also become a standard. The Dept for Roads (oops, I mean Transport!) say they want to make HST2 the new standard High Speed Diesel train. We shall see.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: What did they replace the 66's with? I should think 60's would be the only alternative?

Based on my own occasional observations, over time I think they've gone from 37's (paired) -> 56's -> 60's (currently) - I guess the 66's were a brief tryout which didn't work out...but then the 66's weren't designed for heavy-haul, at the time EWS saw the future mostly as general freight/intermodal, so they compromised the low-speed performance in favour of a higher top speed (85 mph design speed) and lighter motors/alternator so that more fuel could be carried.

I think (ex-NP) 59's were tried for a while on the South Wales ore trains - anyone know how they performed compared to the 60's ?

Tony

[mhurley87f]

From memory, weren't the 37s run in Threes and the 56s pairs?

I remember being surprised to see a 59 on a loaded ore train @ Margam Moors one day (was it 4 or 5 years ago??), but at that location, there would be little choose between them (59 / 60 / 66) as they would have been accelerating from a short downhill stretch on the Docks Branch onto dead level on the mainline prior to hitting Stormy Bank.

Now if I'd been @ Stormy Sidings, then I might have been able offer a highly subjective opinion on which seemed to be coping best.

Hwyl,

Martin

[owlsroost]

As far as I know, the South Wales trains started out with 3 x 37, then went to 2 x 37 after they discovered that two could handle it (they were just slower up Stormy Bank).

I don't think the Immingham trains ever had more than 2 x 37 - that part of Lincolnshire is pretty flat and there's no HST's to keep out of the way of !

Tony

[Simon Reed]

Murphysiding - sorry, but no. http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/
or
http://www.dreadful.org.uk/
might explain why.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Murphysiding - sorry, but no. http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/
or
http://www.dreadful.org.uk/
might explain why.

Rats! Nor does it appear I will ever be one!

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by owlsroost

As far as I know, the South Wales trains started out with 3 x 37, then went to 2 x 37 after they discovered that two could handle it (they were just slower up Stormy Bank).

I don't think the Immingham trains ever had more than 2 x 37 - that part of Lincolnshire is pretty flat and there's no HST's to keep out of the way of !

Tony

They certainly used pairs of 56's at one time on the Port Talbot - Llanwern iron ore trains as I remember photographying them at Cardiff. At that time they'd just named a few 56's with Welsh names. Now I've got a working scanner if I can find one of these shots I'll scan it in.

[mhurley87f]

Sorry it's a bit off topic, but I had a sad duty to perform yesterday.

George Thomas of Llanelli, a former National President of ASLEF, was buried in the town, and his daughter ( a close friend and former colleague of my wife, Helen) had earlier asked that I be one of the bearers at the funeral.

George was one of the most modest and genuine persons I've ever met. Not only was he well respected for his work on behalf of his Footplate colleagues, he was also a former Mayor and Freeman of his home town, and it was fitting that the great and the good of the town and his beloved ASLEF turned out to show their respect.

As you'd expect, the Hymns were sung with quite a bit of hwyl.

Martin

[Simon Reed]

Mr. Siding - I've put your address somewhere and Lynne seems to have "tidied it up."

Let me have it again and I'll send you a seasonal gift!

[Tulyar15]

I hadan enjoyable day out yesterday on the loco hauled finale on the Rhymney line in South Wales. Three sets of Mk 2 cars were in use, top and tailed. The pairings were:-

50 049 + 37 419
33 207 + 47 ???
37 425 + the green 37 (can't remember its number)

weather was good and I shelled out £20 for a day rover ticket but didn't get to ride behing the the 50. 37 425 and 50 049 were in BR large logo blue the former sporting its new "Pride of the Valleys" nameplates. 33 207 and the 47 had both newly been repainted in West Coast Railways maroon and very smart they looked too.

[daveklepper]

What is the replacement equipment?

[Anonymous]

I think the plan is to go over to multiple-unit only operations. Apparently there will still be the odd one or two loco-hauled trains for special occasions (presumably like the Royal Welsh Show - for the past two years we've seen a "37" and three or four MK2s coming up from South Wales to Builth Road station). If only they could bring some of those mothballed HST sets back out and use them in 2+2 formations on the branch lines - a lot more comfortable than the ghastly 153's we get!

[daveklepper]

What is wrong with the HST trains that they aren't all in use? Are the 153's anything like the Sprinters that were good for a bone vibration treatment when I rode them in 1962?