British Railway Operations

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding
[

Thank you for your offer. I'd hate to make you part with it though. It's quite interesting to read about the differences in Britain than here. In my part of the world, 90% of train cars coming through are hauling rock, or grain, and are pulled by the same pool of GP 38's and GP 39's. Oh to have some more variety. Simon Reed mailed me 3 British Railroad magazines a while back. Railfanning, and railroad publications seem to be pretty popular.
Where abouts, in Wisconsin are you? We go to Duluth and Bayfield every year on vacation.

Thanks

No problem parting with it as I have the other three issues for the year. I have been planning a cull of the older issues, I now buy only one issue per year just to keep up with the changes. Send me an e-mail with your snail mail address.


I am in Grantsburg, halfway between the Twin Ports and the Twin Cities. Depending on which route you take you may pass close by me.

I received your package in the mail today. Thank You very much- this looks interesting.

[Murphy Siding]

beaulieu sent me a Freightmaster Railfreight timetable, and a British Railways Pocket Book of Locomotives![:)] Being the analyzer/ information junkie that I am, they are very interesting. In looking at the locomotive book, I wonder what kind of problems occur from having lots of active locos from as far back as the early 1960's? Aren't a lot of the producing companies out of business? We still have shortlines with ALCO's, but I'm sure parts are hard to find.

[Murphy Siding]

beaulieu sent me a Freightmaster Railfreight timetable, and a British Railways Pocket Book of Locomotives![:)] Being the analyzer/ information junkie that I am, they are very interesting. In looking at the locomotive book, I wonder what kind of problems occur from having lots of active locos from as far back as the early 1960's? Aren't a lot of the producing companies out of business? We still have shortlines with ALCO's, but I'm sure parts are hard to find.

[Tulyar15]

Yes, a lot of the diesel locos that BR ordered in the 1950's did not last much beyond the end of steam. A combination of branch line closures, better diagramming of the more reliable diesels and the completion of the West Coast Main Line electrification from Crewe to Glasgow in 1974 meant that diesels from the following makers had become extinct by that year:-

North British
Metropolitan Vickers
Claytons

The diesel hydraulic locos ordered by the Western region became extinct by 1977, though I gather the MTU engines used in the latest HST re-enginng project are descended from the Maybach engines used in these locos, as are the transmissions used in most modern DMU's here - most of which have hydraulic transmission.

Another firm who went bust due to lack of orders were the Birmingham Railway Carriage and Wagon co. As well as building DMU's they buitl Sulzer engined diesel locos for BR and the ones they supplied last very well - they were generally better than the Sulzer engined locos built in BR workshops. When BR invited manufacturers to build a 2,700hp prototype diesel loco in 1960, before placing an order for 500 such locos, BRCW's contender was a Sulzer engined loco painted in an impratical white colour, named "Lion". It put up some good performances but as a result of BRCW going bust was scrapped. To add insult to injury it's Sulzer engine was re-used by arch rivals Brush (one of the few British locomotive builders still in business) once they got the order for the 500 locos. (Brush had built a prototype using called "Falcon" using two 1,400hp Maybach engines - the same type used in the BR build "Western" class diesel hydraulic locos. But BR wanted the Sulzer engine and as some of the 2500hp Sulzer engined "Peak" class diesels build in BR workshops had employed Brush generators and motors it was a natural progression for Brush and BR to collaborate on the build of a 2,700hp diesel. Construction of the 500 locos was split between Brush and BR Crewe. Apart from the English Electric class 50's , after that Brush either won every order for locos from BR or supplied the electrics for BR diesel locos up to the end of BR's existence.

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Why not redeploy the two who are superfluous onto M-of-W duties, to improve the road and increase the road speed. Hey presto! You can offer a more attractive and expedient service to shippers and reduced your operational costs because your crews and locomotives can do things three times as quickly.

Every time one man crews are mentioned on this forum many handbags go skyward with amazing rapidity. Nearly as many as when open access is mentioned..

[Tulyar15]

I find that amazing. Now I know why Ed Burkhardt was so impressed that British Rail had managed to get an agreement on one man operation of trains in place in the 1980's.

[Anonymous]

One man arrangemnets on 100mph freights. Neehhhhhhhhh problem. Yeghes da!

Incidentally one answer to the question re: derailments. Look at the size of the country; then look at our gutter press. Then you will get an answer. Its news here.

[Murphy Siding]

Most road freights here have two man crews. They'll pobably stay as two man crews for a while, as most trains are 1/2 to 1 1/2 mile long, and general concensus is that two are needed in the cab. Most cast off locomotives here end up in the scrapyard, or on a shortline somewhere. Judging from info on websites provided here, and publications other forum members have sent me, it appears that preservation is BIG in Britain. Is there also a network of shortlines in Britain that use cast off locomotives?

Thanks

[Anonymous]

There is really no such thing as a short line in Britian in the form that Americans are used to. With the whole of main line track being owned by Network Rail and most of the Preservied lines not conncected directly to the main line network. However there are some cases of open acess freight operators using Locomotives that are much older then most. The best example is are the Class 20s that are aproching their 50th year service. There have also been a older group of locomotives being rehabed and leased off to work in France on their construction of their newist highspeed line.

[Tulyar15]

A while back some class 20's were sold to a shortline in France, but they've now been re-imported into the Britain.

I think the nearest equivalent to an American shortline is the Bicester Military Railway. It links a number of army depots in that area and much of the traffic on it is just between these depots . But the army also charters a train from EWS to link the BMR with other military depots around the country. At one time the BMR even had a form of open access whereby it operated trains over the main line from Bicester to Oxford with its own stock and crews. The main line co. was always slightly nervous given the age of some of the stock, but knowing Bicester it was probably beautifully maintained.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

A while back some class 20's were sold to a shortline in France, but they've now been re-imported into the Britain.

I think the nearest equivalent to an American shortline is the Bicester Military Railway. It links a number of army depots in that area and much of the traffic on it is just between these depots . But the army also charters a train from EWS to link the BMR with other military depots around the country. At one time the BMR even had a form of open access whereby it operated trains over the main line from Bicester to Oxford with its own stock and crews. The main line co. was always slightly nervous given the age of some of the stock, but knowing Bicester it was probably beautifully maintained.

What about the line from Northallerton to Redmire. I thought that it was going to be kind of a hybrid between a preserved railway and an operating railway providing transportation to locals and freight service to the MOD facility near Redmire.

[Murphy Siding]

beaulieu: What does TOPS stand for?

thanks

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

beaulieu: What does TOPS stand for?

thanks

Total Operations Processing System, it was created by the Southern Pacific Railroad in the US. See this article for a fuller explanation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOPS

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

What about the line from Northallerton to Redmire. I thought that it was going to be kind of a hybrid between a preserved railway and an operating railway providing transportation to locals and freight service to the MOD facility near Redmire.

Yes it is. The Wensleydale Railway company who operate the passenger service are registered with Network Rail as an operator. NR still own the line and EWS do still operate freights on behalf of the MoD. In due course WR have an aspiration to run thru to York.

It is hoped that this arrangement may provide a template for further re-openings and possible micro franchising of some rural lines. In Anglesey, there's hope that the Amlwch line will be re-opened on a similar basis.

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by coasterjoe

There is really no such thing as a short line in Britian in the form that Americans are used to.

Regrettably, retrospective vision is always 20/20, and at the time of the Beeching cuts, and there were a few routes that should have been moth-balled.

Line closures decisions were taken on a route by route basis and little concern paid to the effect of one decision on others.

Unfortunately, the legislation covering railway ownership and operation didn't allow for anything other than the Nationalised Industry way, and solutions to the high costs built into the operational arrangements were a few years away.

Even simple measures such as adopting request stop passenger operations were verboten in some Regions of BR while hugely effective in others.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

beaulieu: What does TOPS stand for?

thanks

Total Operations Processing System, it was created by the Southern Pacific Railroad in the US. See this article for a fuller explanation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOPS

Thanks. I get it now.

[Anonymous]

TOPS did have some interesting side-effects. Previously locos were numbered with a D prefix (Diesels) or an E prefix (Electrics). The first of class was numbered D400, D200, etc - however, TOPS couldn't handle 50000 or 40000 - result being that the first of class had to take the highest number. D400 became 50050, for example.

[Simon Reed]

Not always the case.

Some renumbering followed a logical sequence and some - the "Peaks", for example, were renumbered when they went through works.

Interestingly although TOPS did'nt allow 000 individual signifiers, it DID, somehow, allow duplication of numbers.This is how the Class 56 locomotives, introduced from 1977 and for some time Britain's most powerful locomotives, were occasionally and embarrasingly confused with Class 114 DMU power cars....

[Anonymous]

I think we have already had the TOPS renumbering exposition in earlier pages on this thread. Some closures took place out of sheer spite (alledgedly) - i.e. the knocking off of the LSWR by the Western. Still we live and learn. Bere Alston- Tavvy on the Gunnislake may yet still be reopened. (Probabley when I am about 100).

[Murphy Siding]

I was reading about the class 59 vs. class 60 locomotives. It seems that when they were first proposed, the class 60 was thought to be underpowered. According to the book that beaulieu sent me, it looks like both had similar H.P. How have the 60's compared to the 59's in service?

Thanks

[Anonymous]

EWS did appear to be trying to retire all the 60s until recently - now they seem to have had a change of heart and are reactivating them. From what I've read in a few places the problem is that the Class 66 (a development of the 59 - only three private operators owned 59s) while rated as Type 5 (the highest power rating) doesn't have the same heavy haulage ability as the Class 60 - there are some trains it can't handle that a 60 can. I've also read reports by crews that the 66 is downright uncomfortable and very noisy indeed due to having the engine mounted solidly to the frames and the cabs likewise - usually either one or the other would have flexible mountings to reduce vibration.

[Tulyar15]

A number of 56's are also going to be re-activated by Jarvis, an open access operator. These 3,300hp beasts are capable of toping the Lickey incline (2 miles of 1:37 ) at 70mph+ despite their official top speed being a mere 80mph.

[Simon Reed]

A question which arises is this - I think we're all satisfied that GM's 66 and it's derivatives fall far short of the mark on several counts so why is there no viable alternative available to the European market?

The Vossloh G1200 family has become a standard in mainland Europe. One would have thought that a beefier version would have been made available. Adtranz's "Blue Tiger" was, I understand, essentially a competent and capable testbed killed off by DB politics but surely the concept could be adopted by Vossloh or similar.

Having said that it strikes me that there probably are'nt any manufacturers capable of offering the after-sales service that the 66's get.

Any thoughts?

[Anonymous]

I do wonder if the fact that they were able to get Railtrack acceptance more easily played a part - due to the design having much in common with the Class 59 it surely required less bureaucracy? I'm comparing this to the Class 92, which as I understand it took years to get clearance for?

[Simon Reed]

I was thinking more in terms of continental Europe where, if anything, the shortcomings of the "66" derivatives would be more keenly felt on bigger trains over longer distances.

There's virtually no choice in terms of big diesel power in Western Europe. Granted, probably 85% of frieght can be hauled from source to destination electrically but there are significant non electrified zones - Antwerp Docks spring to mind immediately.

This means that operators are using what they can, including "58's" for ACTS in Holland, cast-off DB 218's in France etc..

I got to thinking about this somewhere near Karlsruhe the other week, when the box train my ICE was overtaking turned out to have a 66 on the front.

While I'm here - to MurphySiding and the rest - Happy Thanksgiving! No, we don't have thanksgiving in Britain and the weather is so grim at the moment we've not much to be thankful for...

[Anonymous]

Tricky question - I'm wondering if there's something of an over-reliance on electric power? The last diesel loco DB developed (I think - not 100% sure) was the old Br. 218 - a great loco but they're aging now. Since then we've seen multi-voltage electrics of several types but no big new diesel orders. Locos like the Siemens Eurorunner are now coming into production but I'd also wonder if they're more expensive than a 66? DB don't seem too inclined to add any to the fleet though they have tried assorted prototypes on the Sylt shuttle services - usually these have a pair of 218s but I've seen footage of a 66, a pair of Eurorunners, and others - think the Blue Tiger may have appeared but not 100% sure.

[Simon Reed]

I believe that one of the "old" GM's problems was the astonishing warranties that came with the 66. 98.5% availability guaranteed is an operational impossibilty. It might work for EWS but Freightliner's intensive diagramming made it unworkable.

European Railways are effectively governed by DB and, to a lesser extent, SNCF. The private operators that have sprung up in Europe over the last few years are pretty much DB puppets. Certainly the Blue Tiger was requested by DB who then changed their minds, bankrupting Adtranz and ending the long long line of European diesel innovation.

It's a sore point. Yes there is an over reliance on electrification because a return on the investment is simply not there in many models - the Benelux countries being a case in point - but then I'm a hairy****d dirty haired diesel man in a well paid job, 34 paid days leave a year and an understanding partner. That means I can do the world for loud diesels and right at the moment the US is the best.

[beaulieu]

With the Class 66 GM made the pu***o get it certified ahead of any orders so when companies like Short Lines came looking, the loco was fully certified and ready, just look at the troubles Siemens has had in getting the ES64F4 certified in Italy. Also the Class 66 had one big advantage in being a low tech DC motored locomotive, in many countries the 3-phase AC Drives are causing signal immunization problems
which the Class 66 avoids. The Blue Tiger idea is still alive from Bombardier just too expensive to be very popular. When Vossloh bought the Alstom plant in Valencia, Spain one of the requirements was that the license to build EMD powered locomotives could be transfered. Vossloh and EMD are teaming up to build a more powerful 3.3 MW locomotive sized to European clearances for next summer using the V16 version of the 710G EMD engine.

[Tulyar15]

I wonder what engine the replacement for our diesel HST (HST2) will use? Will it be the Paxman VP185 or the MTU one being tried out by Gt. Western. The Aussies have already re-engined their XPT's (an HST clone built down under but with British made components) with VP185's. If these power HST there's a fighting chance we might see a revival of the British rolling stock industry. Iarnrod Eireann have even indicated they might buy a few HST2;s.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

I wonder what engine the replacement for our diesel HST (HST2) will use? Will it be the Paxman VP185 or the MTU one being tried out by Gt. Western. The Aussies have already re-engined their XPT's (an HST clone built down under but with British made components) with VP185's. If these power HST there's a fighting chance we might see a revival of the British rolling stock industry. Iarnrod Eireann have even indicated they might buy a few HST2;s.

MTU 4000 series engine is the almost certain choice. The main European competition for the Class 66 is the Vossloh G2000, the G1206 is more of a trip freight locomotive, although both Railion Netherland and B-Cargo do use variants for mainline freight.