British Railway Operations

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

All: The TV news report was the one that identified the crossers as being immigrants of Middle Eastern descent, which is synonymous with Arabic descent. I just brought it up as it relates to problems with the Chunnel operations on the French end.

And yes, Murphy, the TV footage showed these folks actually running into the tunnel right after a train had entered on the French end. If I could remember which network it was that showed this (I believe it was NBC, but I can't be sure), I would gladly refer you to them so you can b***h at them for being so politically incorrect.

And yes, such a subject does relate to British Railway Operations as they pertain to Chunnel operations.

I will say this: If you think that border security and terrorism are *political* subjects open for debate, then it does explain some of the masochistic attitudes of you people on the left. Here all this time I thought such subjects were apolitical.

First, let me suggest that just because you saw something on television, that doesn't make it the undeniable truth. Stop and think about it. The tunnel is what? maybe 30 miles long? My understanding is that it is just big enough to get a train through. I'm sure it's not lit up, as there would be nothing to look at. 30 miles of walking would take maybe 10-15 hours? As trains frequently zoom through a tight tunnel at a pretty good clip,wouldn't the illegal aliens be splattered all over the front of the locomotives? Problem solved.[;)] Or, maybe there never was this problem to start with. I believe you are underestimating the efforts of the railway people in Britain and France.


Now, let me get more to the point. You've read me saying the same thing to Lotus98 on another thread: There are thousands of political forums out there for you to debate,argue, and call people names. There are very few railroad forums. Let's talk about railroads.

Thanks

[Simon Reed]

MurphySiding - there are actually three tunnels - the outer two are for traffic in either direction and the inner one is a service tunnel for maintainence and evacuation purposes.

There is plenty of room down there and people are occasionally found wandering about but the security operations at either end of the tunnel invariably pick them up; quite often they are found to have mental health problems.

Futuremodal - judging by the reactionary and naive reportage that you've been misled by I presume that you've been watching one of the Fox channels. Political interpretation is inevitable, but extremism and uniformed bigotry are unnecessary and inappropriate.

[owlsroost]

The problem with asylum seekers at the French tunnel terminal was basically a disruption of operations and safety issue, caused mainly by a lack of security around the rail freight yard compounded by a large shelter nearby for asylum seekers. This meant that every night groups of people attempted to get through the fences and climb aboard freight trains, very severely delaying/stopping shipments.

Eventually the UK government persuaded the French authorities to close the shelter and improve the security (better fences and 24 hour police patrols I think)- this brought the problem back to managable levels as far as I know.

Since border security creates delay and inconvenience for everybody (and costs taxpayers money), striking the right balance between security and the free passage of people and goods *is* a valid subject for political debate - but this isn't the forum for it.

Tony

[Murphy Siding]

Is loading / unloading of cars,trucks, etc... done at each end of the tunnel, similar to how a ferry would load/unload? Or, do they go on through to some further point to unload, gauge clearences permitting.

Thanks

[martin.knoepfel]

The shuttles run only between the two terminals on each side of the chunnel.

In the UK, the shuttle trains would be restricted by the clearances. The high-speed-link from the Chunnel to London is not for freight-trains. The planned continental-gauge freight-line from the Chunnel to the Midlands has never been realized. It would of cause make piggyback much easier.

[Anonymous]

Loading is done from the side of the shuttles (they have specially-designed loader cars - the HGV type is a large flatcar with drop sides, the single deck type has a telescopic roof/sides, the double decker has sliding doors and an internal ramp. Loading is indeed much the same as ferries - vehicles arriving at the terminal are sorted depending on height, length, etc then waved onto the first suitable train.

[TH&B]

The shuttle trains are dimesionaly even bigger then Continental trains, in fact even by US standards they would be dimensional. They are not just bigger then Briton's loading clearances. The shuttle trains are the widest standard gage trains that I know of anywhwere (they are at least 13 feet wide. They are a testimant of at least how big standard gage trains could be if clearances where improved.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by martin.knoepfel

The shuttles run only between the two terminals on each side of the chunnel.

In the UK, the shuttle trains would be restricted by the clearances. The high-speed-link from the Chunnel to London is not for freight-trains. The planned continental-gauge freight-line from the Chunnel to the Midlands has never been realized. It would of cause make piggyback much easier.

So I cna board the high speed passenger train in London, ride through the Chunnel, and on through to were? Paris?

Thanks

[Anonymous]

owlsroost - Thank you for clarifying the security situation of the Chunnel. That was what I was hoping for, an intelligent comment without the slander and backstabbing. I have no further comment on the Chunnel security situation.

Simon Reed - No, I do not get the Fox Network where I live, so that leaves the three lefty channels (and PBS). That being said, you seem to have a ignorant attitude toward those who do watch Fox/Star. I would say you are the uninformed bigot.

edkowal - In my judgement you are splitting hairs, but I do get your point. And you seem to think that things are only "political" when they come from the right, not from the left, e.g. you exude a double standard. I asked a legitimate question about the Chunnel security situation based on an American news report from one of the left-leaning networks. One post was able to address that issue, the rest descended into a hissy fit. As far as using the term "Arabic" instead of the term "Middle Easterners" as used by the news network, I stand corrected, it was sloppy verbiage on my part.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: So I cna board the high speed passenger train in London, ride through the Chunnel, and on through to were? Paris?

Main service is to Lille, Paris and Brussels, plus Disneyland Paris (one per day), Avignon (southern France, weekends only in the summer) and Bourg St Maurice (French Alps, weekends only in the winter) - http://www.eurostar.com

Lille and Paris provide connections to the French TGV network, Brussels provides connections to the international Thalys (French/Belgium/Dutch/German) high-speed train system.

Tony

[edkowal]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

edkowal - ... And you seem to think that things are only "political" when they come from the right, not from the left, e.g. you exude a double standard...

Allow me to correct your assumption. I was responding to the divisive tone of the phrase you used. It would not have mattered to me what group you were characterizing as "...masochistic..." and "...you people..."

As a matter of fact the phrase "...some of the masochistic attitudes of you people on the right..." would have triggered the same response from me. I am in favor of civil discussions.

-Ed

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Looking at the links to shuttle equipment above, and the discussion that follows, it leads me to wonder if the tunnel is just a hi-tech/hi-priced cross channel ferry? I had envisioned it as sort of an extention of the British rail system, but maybe not?

Thanks

It's a bit of both - the tunnel replaced the old train ferry operations with a system that could take straight through services rather than having to split the train up and load it onto a ship. However, through rail freight has had major problems with stowaways on board, so every train has to be checked very thoroughly on arrival to ensure nobody has attempted to sneak in clinging to a brake rod. I'm not sure if the situation has improved much (in terms of time taken to transit the tunnel) though they have added a lot of extra tools to their armoury (such as heat seeking cameras, X ray machines that can take a whole truck, a lot of CCTV, etc).

As far as passenger and truck traffic is concerned, the tunnel is just another competitor for the same business as the ferries. They won't allow some vehicles onto the shuttles (I think cars fitted with an LPG conversion aren't allowed, and for a while they wouldn't let you on with bottled gas on board). so the ferries are able to take some business that way, but mainly they fight it out on price. It's popular with those who for whatever reason (seasickness, fear of water, fear of ships) won't use the ferries as well. Personally I'd rather spend an hour or two sitting in the sea air and watching the traffic than riding through a tunnel (the Channel is one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world, so there's plenty to look at).

Dont forget that the Eurostar service also competes - quite successfully -with the airlines. It has now go a 2/3rd market share of all London - Paris journeys and 80% share of the business market. I much prefer travelling by Eurostar to either flying or boat! Ferries are as much of a drag as airports you always seem to have to wait around for ages! For business class travellers, Eurostar have now introduced a 15 minute fast track check in so you can turn up 15 minutes before departure.

[owlsroost]

The whole Channel tunnel shuttle operation is quite impressive (apart from Eurotunnel's financial problems!) - if you are in the area, well worth a look (there used to be a vistor centre at the UK end, not sure if it's still open).

The truck-carrying shuttles are about 2400 tonnes fully loaded, 745 metres long with a 5.6MW or 7MW (7500hp/9400hp) Bo-Bo-Bo electric loco at each end, running at up to 87 mph over a 1.1% ruling gradient.

The car-carrying shuttles are a bit longer but not as heavy.

The 7MW/9400hp locos are the most powerful in the world (as far as I know).

http://www.eurotunnel.com/ukcP3Main/ukcCorporate/ukcAboutUs/ukcCoreBusinessActivities/ukpRollingStock.htm

Note that Eurotunnel (tunnel and shuttle operator) and Eurostar (passenger train operator) are completely separate, unconnected companies.

Tony

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by owlsroost

The whole Channel tunnel shuttle operation is quite impressive (apart from Eurotunnel's financial problems!) - if you are in the area, well worth a look (there used to be a vistor centre at the UK end, not sure if it's still open).

The truck-carrying shuttles are about 2400 tonnes fully loaded, 745 metres long with a 5.6MW or 7MW (7500hp/9400hp) Bo-Bo-Bo electric loco at each end, running at up to 87 mph over a 1.1% ruling gradient.

The car-carrying shuttles are a bit longer but not as heavy.

The 7MW/9400hp locos are the most powerful in the world (as far as I know).

http://www.eurotunnel.com/ukcP3Main/ukcCorporate/ukcAboutUs/ukcCoreBusinessActivities/ukpRollingStock.htm

Note that Eurotunnel (tunnel and shuttle operator) and Eurostar (passenger train operator) are completely separate, unconnected companies.

Tony

That is quite an interesting site. 58 electric locomotives must move a lot of trains! I found the history part enjoyable as well. It appears someone was planning a railroad tunnel before there were trains.[:)]. Are Eurotunnel's financial problems in the past? Or something on going?

Thanks

[Anonymous]

As I understand it, the finance problems are ongoing - the tunnel cost a fortune to build and is competing with ferry operators who have lower costs. I get the impression that the financiers are resigned to it taking a while to get their money back - there seems to be no imminent risk of Eurotunnel going under.

[martin.knoepfel]

The Chunnel practically belongs to its creditors. However, they don't seem to have an interest in shutting it down. Besides, the political damage would be too big.

I have not yet heard anything about the future of the Eurostar-trainsets after completion of the high-speed-link between Folkestone and London. IMHO they are not yet at the end of their useful life and could be used to offer high-speed through-trains from Paris to places north of London.

Of course, the smaller british rolling stock could run on continental railways. I know of two cases where locomotives have been brought to the continent. During WW II, British yard-switchers (three axles with rods, LMS-origin?) were transported to Italy where they remained in service after the end of hostilities. When BR closed the line through the new Woodhead-tunnel, the engines (1,5 kV DC) were sold to the Dutch State Railways (NS) which operate under the same system. They hauled trains for several years.

[beaulieu]

SBB Cargo's Re620 (Re 6/6) locomotives are rated at 7.8 MW and BLS Class Re 465 Bo-Bo locos are rated at 7.0 MW. The problems at Eurotunnel are that the two governments signed an agreement not to financially underwright the remaining debt. The British government is willing to let the ownership go to the creditors, while the French Government is unwilling to face the fallout from the several thousand small stockholders being wiped out after they made a patriotic pitch to buy shares in the tunnel. A majority of the small shareholders are French. A big part of the problem stems from unrealistic traffic projections made during the planning of the tunnel. Turmoil caused by the privatisation of British freight rail , combined with the unreliable and growing more expensive French freight service isn't helping.
Domestic railfreight in France is on a serious downhill slope. France has also been a staunch opponent of Open Access freight operators. The Unions have great powers in France and strikes are a regular occurance. In the first half of 2005 SNCF Fret calculates that 13 weeks out of 26 were affected by strikes. SNCF Fret figures that it takes 10 days after a strike ends for operations to return to normal.

[Tulyar15]

I think EWS have finally got the go-ahead to start an open access operation in France and class 66 diesel locos have now been cleared for operation there. In addition the class 92 elecric locos intended to pull the Euro sleeper trains are currently idle so EWS could use these too.

I think freight trains have used the Channel Tunnel Rail link on occassiosn. The only problems would be fitting them in with high speed passenger trains, but there are a number of loops to enable a freight train to be overtaken by a passenger train. The CTRL has been built to the full continental loading guage and its owners have always accepted that it could be used for freight - there is possibility of continental size wagons running thru to the terminal in Stratford (East London) when the second phase opens in 2007.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: I have not yet heard anything about the future of the Eurostar-trainsets after completion of the high-speed-link between Folkestone and London.IMHO they are not yet at the end of their useful life and could be used to offer high-speed through-trains from Paris to places north of London.

The Eurostar trainsets will continue to provide the services - they are the only passenger trains allowed to run through the tunnel (they are only about 11 years old and are currently being refurbished I think). It also means that in the event of disruption on the new high-speed line they can still run on the 'old' routes to/from London.

The bulk of the fleet cannot run north of London, but there are a small number of (shorter, technically different) 'Regional Eurostar' trains which can. These have never been used for their intended purpose (some are currently hired to GNER for purely domestic London-Leeds services, but this will end soon), so it's these trains which would be used for any north of London - Paris services.

QUOTE: SBB Cargo's Re620 (Re 6/6) locomotives are rated at 7.8 MW and BLS Class Re 465 Bo-Bo locos are rated at 7.0 MW

Thanks for the correction - the claim is on the Eurotunnel web site, but I had a feeling it wasn't accurate (although the 7MW Eurotunnel locos appear to have very marginally more tractive effort than the Re620, so maybe this is the basis for the claim ?)

The Eurotunnel financial woes are mostly due to traffic projections being too optimistic, price competition from the ferries and the tunnel costing far more to build than the original estimates. Things are likely to come to a head when the guaranteed access payments for freight and passenger trains end sometime in 2006 (effectively a government subsidy to Eurotunnel). Eurotunnel would like to re-negotiate it's huge debt repayments but the banks basically hold most of the cards, so they may well just wait until it defaults on the debt repayments and take control anyway.

Tony

[Murphy Siding]

If I'm reading this correctly, the tunnel is owned by a company with some financing/subsidizing from both countries? How would you deal with the two countries having seemingly different views on what should be done? Yikes!
Thanks

[owlsroost]

Beaulieu explained the Eurotunnel situation quite well - I strongly suspect that what the French shareholders are after is for the French government to bail them out, but the Anglo-French treaty which provides the legal basis for the tunnel might prevent that without agreement from both sides.

Eurotunnel doesn't actually *own* the tunnel - it has a concession from the two governments to construct, operate and maintain it up to 2086.

There was no government financing of the construction, but the railways (originally BR and SNCF) pay a 'minimum usage charge' to Eurotunnel (up to November 2006) which is effectively a goverment subsidy.

Tony

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

I think EWS have finally got the go-ahead to start an open access operation in France and class 66 diesel locos have now been cleared for operation there. In addition the class 92 elecric locos intended to pull the Euro sleeper trains are currently idle so EWS could use these too.

Yes, EWS International have their French license now, the press release is on their website. However EMD' s Class 66s are not yet approved for use in France, so EWS have leased 4 Vossloh G1206 locomotives to get things started. It is rumoured that one of these locomotives has been brought through the tunnel to conduct Driver familiarization at Dollands Moor. They can't go beyond Eurotunnel limits since they aren't cleared for Network Rail. Regarding the Class 92s it might be too difficult to get them cleared for operation on on French Rails as they cannot go beyond Eurotunnel limits for now on the French side. EWS has a surplus of Class 92s with a number of them in storage needing only minor repairs. The French make it very difficult to get power approved as a way of limiting Open Access, fortunately for Vossloh, SNCF Fret had leased a batch of the G1206 locomotives to cover a shortage of heavy trip freight locomotives pending the delivery of new locomotives from Altsom/Vossloh so they couldn't easily deny other operators from using that model. In the case of the Class 66 EMD wants the locomotive cleared for France and will provide technical and financial help to get it done.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

I think EWS have finally got the go-ahead to start an open access operation in France and class 66 diesel locos have now been cleared for operation there. In addition the class 92 elecric locos intended to pull the Euro sleeper trains are currently idle so EWS could use these too.

Yes, EWS International have their French license now, the press release is on their website. However EMD' s Class 66s are not yet approved for use in France, so EWS have leased 4 Vossloh G1206 locomotives to get things started. It is rumoured that one of these locomotives has been brought through the tunnel to conduct Driver familiarization at Dollands Moor. They can't go beyond Eurotunnel limits since they aren't cleared for Network Rail. Regarding the Class 92s it might be too difficult to get them cleared for operation on on French Rails as they cannot go beyond Eurotunnel limits for now on the French side. EWS has a surplus of Class 92s with a number of them in storage needing only minor repairs. The French make it very difficult to get power approved as a way of limiting Open Access, fortunately for Vossloh, SNCF Fret had leased a batch of the G1206 locomotives to cover a shortage of heavy trip freight locomotives pending the delivery of new locomotives from Altsom/Vossloh so they couldn't easily deny other operators from using that model. In the case of the Class 66 EMD wants the locomotive cleared for France and will provide technical and financial help to get it done.

Small question: I know that SNCF is the abbreviation for the French National Railway System, but what does Fret, at the end mean? Are the actions of the French, as described above, for the purpose of protecting their State-owned system from foreign competition?

Thanks

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding


Small question: I know that SNCF is the abbreviation for the French National Railway System, but what does Fret, at the end mean? Are the actions of the French, as described above, for the purpose of protecting their State-owned system from foreign competition?

Thanks

Fret is french for Freight. [:D][:D][:D]

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

I think EWS have finally got the go-ahead to start an open access operation in France and class 66 diesel locos have now been cleared for operation there. In addition the class 92 elecric locos intended to pull the Euro sleeper trains are currently idle so EWS could use these too.

Yes, EWS International have their French license now, the press release is on their website. However EMD' s Class 66s are not yet approved for use in France, so EWS have leased 4 Vossloh G1206 locomotives to get things started. It is rumoured that one of these locomotives has been brought through the tunnel to conduct Driver familiarization at Dollands Moor. They can't go beyond Eurotunnel limits since they aren't cleared for Network Rail. Regarding the Class 92s it might be too difficult to get them cleared for operation on on French Rails as they cannot go beyond Eurotunnel limits for now on the French side. EWS has a surplus of Class 92s with a number of them in storage needing only minor repairs. The French make it very difficult to get power approved as a way of limiting Open Access, fortunately for Vossloh, SNCF Fret had leased a batch of the G1206 locomotives to cover a shortage of heavy trip freight locomotives pending the delivery of new locomotives from Altsom/Vossloh so they couldn't easily deny other operators from using that model. In the case of the Class 66 EMD wants the locomotive cleared for France and will provide technical and financial help to get it done.

Small question: I know that SNCF is the abbreviation for the French National Railway System, but what does Fret, at the end mean? Are the actions of the French, as described above, for the purpose of protecting their State-owned system from foreign competition?

Thanks

Absolutely! the French are very bad Europeans, they always ignore EU law when it suits them. For instance at the moment they're illegally subsidising their fisherman and as for the ban on British beef...

What Brussels needs is not more powers, but more capability to enforec existing EU legislation.

Mind you with all the riots going on in France right now perhaps its on the verge of collapse.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed



Probably 95% of the population of Britain, excluding Northern Ireland, live in the area between the South Coast and the Scottish Central Lowlands. I would imagine that the longest "as the crow flies" line you could draw within that landmass would be about 650 miles. Probably over 99% of manufacturing and production goes on within that area too.

For internal traffic, therefore, there is no time or money incentive to develop bi-modal flows. The road network in Britain is comprehensive and, for the most part, toll-free so a trailer setting off from, say, Plymouth in the South West of the country might reach Dundee in the North East within 16 hours, which means that only two drivers would be required.


.

Given the information above, what freight DOES move consistently by rail? It sounds like more ( or most? ) freight moves by truck?.

Thanks

[martin.knoepfel]

To be honest, one has to admit not only the French use power-approval as a method to limit open access. The German authorities are very difficult, too.

Only a few months ago, Connex, a company hauling passenger and freight trains in several European countries, wanted to run the first open-access-train in France. Members of French unions sat on the rails to prevent the trains from departing the yard. Finally, the French police carried them away. The unions argue that Connex' engineers are not sufficiently trained. However, you need an engineer's licence to run a train, and I never heard that Connex runs unsafe trains. I have often heard complaints that Connex passengers trains are not clean enough in the interior and that the rolling-stock is often old and would need being refurbished.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed



Probably 95% of the population of Britain, excluding Northern Ireland, live in the area between the South Coast and the Scottish Central Lowlands. I would imagine that the longest "as the crow flies" line you could draw within that landmass would be about 650 miles. Probably over 99% of manufacturing and production goes on within that area too.

For internal traffic, therefore, there is no time or money incentive to develop bi-modal flows. The road network in Britain is comprehensive and, for the most part, toll-free so a trailer setting off from, say, Plymouth in the South West of the country might reach Dundee in the North East within 16 hours, which means that only two drivers would be required.


.

Given the information above, what freight DOES move consistently by rail? It sounds like more ( or most? ) freight moves by truck?.

Thanks

Coal is the biggest source of traffic, with domestic production now very small in England most of it comes from Scotland mainly the area SW of Glasgow. This gives a decent length of haul for the railways. A lot of coal is now imported, with most of the coal fired power plants not located near the ports the railways get a decent haul from this. Major ports for coal imports are at Immingham on the East Coast. Hunterston, just west of Glasgow. And Avonmouth just north of Bristol. The next biggest
source of traffic is Maritime Containers, large container ports are at Southampton on the English Channel, and Felixstowe on the North Sea. Smaller Container terminals are at Tilbury on the Thames River east of London, and at Liverpool. Other products hauled are Iron Ore, Finished Steel, Autos, Paper, China Clay, and some Chemicals and Petroleum.

[Tulyar15]

and some timber traffic in Scotland. Rail freight is however growing .

There's also a lot of stone traffic moved from the west country to London and SE England for building projects. One of the quarry companies, Foster Yeoman, was the first company to have its own trains running on the network, albeit crewed by BR staff. They bought the first EMD locomotives to be used in Britain, the class 59's.

[owlsroost]

There is also some internal intermodal and merchandise traffic, mostly run on contract for logistics companies e.g. Daventry (about 70 miles NW of London) to the Glasgow area, but it's a very small amount in comparison to that moved by road.

There's also a fair amount of stone traffic from quarries in the East Midlands and the Peak District.

Tony