British Railway Operations

[Tulyar15]

Train Spotting involves collecting loco numbers, either writing them down in a note book or underlining them in a book containing loco numbers with a description of the locos concerned.

Trainspotting started in the 1940's when a publicity officer at the Southern Railway called Ian Allen got permission from his employers to publish a booklet describing all the SR's loco's with a list of numbers. This proved so popular that he published similar booklets for the other 3 big four railways and started his own publishing house which to-day is big business, publishing a wide variety of books and magazines on transport related subjects.

Trainspotting became so popular in the 1940's that the railways banned spotting at certain stations were lots of young spotters were getting in the way. It declined in the 1960's with the end of steam but picked up again in the 1970's. I think it remains a peculiarly Briti***hing. While there are railfans in most European countries the only books lisiting their loco numbers are printed in English!

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

Train Spotting involves collecting loco numbers, either writing them down in a note book or underlining them in a book containing loco numbers with a description of the locos concerned.

Trainspotting started in the 1940's when a publicity officer at the Southern Railway called Ian Allen got permission from his employers to publish a booklet describing all the SR's loco's with a list of numbers. This proved so popular that he published similar booklets for the other 3 big four railways and started his own publishing house which to-day is big business, publishing a wide variety of books and magazines on transport related subjects.

Trainspotting became so popular in the 1940's that the railways banned spotting at certain stations were lots of young spotters were getting in the way. It declined in the 1960's with the end of steam but picked up again in the 1970's. I think it remains a peculiarly Briti***hing. While there are railfans in most European countries the only books lisiting their loco numbers are printed in English!

With a lot of people keeping up to date rosters on the internet of most railroads, I wonder if a similar form of that goes on here?

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

Train Spotting involves collecting loco numbers, either writing them down in a note book or underlining them in a book containing loco numbers with a description of the locos concerned.

Trainspotting started in the 1940's when a publicity officer at the Southern Railway called Ian Allen got permission from his employers to publish a booklet describing all the SR's loco's with a list of numbers. This proved so popular that he published similar booklets for the other 3 big four railways and started his own publishing house which to-day is big business, publishing a wide variety of books and magazines on transport related subjects.

Trainspotting became so popular in the 1940's that the railways banned spotting at certain stations were lots of young spotters were getting in the way. It declined in the 1960's with the end of steam but picked up again in the 1970's. I think it remains a peculiarly Briti***hing. While there are railfans in most European countries the only books lisiting their loco numbers are printed in English!

With a lot of people keeping up to date rosters on the internet of most railroads, I wonder if a similar form of that goes on here?

I'm sure it does, and I'm one of the guilty parties with a count of slightly over 30,000 locomotives and slugs since 1968.

[Murphy Siding]

That's 30,000 different locomotives?[:)]

[Murphy Siding]

I just picked up a copy of "Broken Rails:How Privatisation Wrecked Britain's Railways", by Christian Wolmer. It looks interesting.

[Tulyar15]

Yes, he's a very good writer. Christian Wolmer. I've not read his book but a lot of it has been printed in 'RAIL', a fortnightly magazine which I read. He also writes in "The Independant", a national newspaper in Britain which I often buy.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

That's 30,000 different locomotives?[:)]

That's right[:D] I've kept track of renumberings and rebuildings so I don't have any double counts to my knowledge[?] It goes a long way to keeping the ride to work (Metra Southwest) interesting.
Without trying to appear too modest, 30,000 locomotives in over 30 years doesn't take too much effort, especially when EMD and NRE were close.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

That's 30,000 different locomotives?[:)]

That's right[:D] I've kept track of renumberings and rebuildings so I don't have any double counts to my knowledge[?] It goes a long way to keeping the ride to work (Metra Southwest) interesting.
Without trying to appear too modest, 30,000 locomotives in over 30 years doesn't take too much effort, especially when EMD and NRE were close.

Well, let's do some math here......30,000 locomotives, divided by 30 years,divided by 365 days, is......2.74. You see an *average* of about 3 *different* locomotives per day![:D]. Man-o-man. I figure it's a good day when I see something(anything) out of the ordinary. Do you do that Pavlov's dog thing and drool when you hear a train whistle?[;)]

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

Yes, he's a very good writer. Christian Wolmer. I've not read his book but a lot of it has been printed in 'RAIL', a fortnightly magazine which I read. He also writes in "The Independant", a national newspaper in Britain which I often buy.

I'm about 1/4 th through this book. It starts out with a basic overview of the British rail system [:)].
Some interesting things I learned: At it's creation,in 1948,British Railways had 7000 horses used for traction in yards,with some still being used as late as 1964.[:0]. There were fewer than 4,000 freight wagons in Britain when this book was written (2001). That's not many,compared to North American railroads. There were over 50 prototype diesel designs tried out during early dieselization.
Funny to think that somewhere, there was a train yard that went straight from horsepower to diesel power!

[Tulyar15]

One part of the British Rail network that remained horse worked right to the very end was the 3' 6" Nantle tramway in North Wales, near Caernarfon (opened 1828). Most of it was converted to standard gauge and locomotive operation in the 1860's but the upper reaches of it remained narrow gauge and horse worked until its final closure in 1963. Ironically some of the quarries had their own steam locos and one of these, a little 0-4-0 Vertical boiler loco is on display at the Dinas HQ of the Welsh Highland Railway where their ex S. African 2' gauge Beyer-Garratts and 2-8-2's dwarf it (Ironically 3' 6" is the standard gauge in S. Africa!).

Some of the inclines of the Nantle Tramway also employed water power (very abundant in North Wales) to haul wagons up. A stationary steam engine (one of the last of its kind to be built ) survives at the Dorothea quarry, one of the Nantle quarries.

When the Nantle first opened it was built by the quarry owners to enable them to export their slate from Caernarfon and operated like a toll road in that all the quarries provided their own horses and paid a toll for using the line. But this caused problems with some of the less well maintained cars damaging the track so by the 1850's it had become vertically integrated!

To-day much of the Nantle trackbed can be walked, the section that was converted to standard gauge is now a footback. The last 3 miles into Caernarfon is now also used by the 2' gauge Welsh Highland. (Originally this line joined up with the Nantle line at Dinas 3 miles f rom Caernarfon with the result that the slate had to be transhipped to standard gauge just for the last 3 miles ot Caernarfon! But now it runs right into the town with a terminus by the famous castle, close to where the original 1828 Nantle terminus was).

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

One part of the British Rail network that remained horse worked right to the very end was the 3' 6" Nantle tramway in North Wales, near Caernarfon (opened 1828). Most of it was converted to standard gauge and locomotive operation in the 1860's but the upper reaches of it remained narrow gauge and horse worked until its final closure in 1963. Ironically some of the quarries had their own steam locos and one of these, a little 0-4-0 Vertical boiler loco is on display at the Dinas HQ of the Welsh Highland Railway where their ex S. African 2' gauge Beyer-Garratts and 2-8-2's dwarf it (Ironically 3' 6" is the standard gauge in S. Africa!).

Some of the inclines of the Nantle Tramway also employed water power (very abundant in North Wales) to haul wagons up. A stationary steam engine (one of the last of its kind to be built ) survives at the Dorothea quarry, one of the Nantle quarries.

When the Nantle first opened it was built by the quarry owners to enable them to export their slate from Caernarfon and operated like a toll road in that all the quarries provided their own horses and paid a toll for using the line. But this caused problems with some of the less well maintained cars damaging the track so by the 1850's it had become vertically integrated!

To-day much of the Nantle trackbed can be walked, the section that was converted to standard gauge is now a footback. The last 3 miles into Caernarfon is now also used by the 2' gauge Welsh Highland. (Originally this line joined up with the Nantle line at Dinas 3 miles f rom Caernarfon with the result that the slate had to be transhipped to standard gauge just for the last 3 miles ot Caernarfon! But now it runs right into the town with a terminus by the famous castle, close to where the original 1828 Nantle terminus was).

How would you use water power to haul wagons up?

Thanks

[Anonymous]

Wasn't there a Monty Python sketch about trainspotting?

[Simon Reed]

How would you use water power to haul wagons up?

Thanks

[Anonymous]

There's a couple of funicular lines near me that either are or used to be water powered. Aberystwyth's cliff railway used to use water tanks to move the cars (filling them at the top to haul the other car up) though it now uses an electric motor instead. The other one (which is water powered) is at the Centre for Alternative Technology near Machynlleth - they use it to haul visitors up from the carpark to the centre. There's a website for the Aberystwyth one at http://www.aberystwythcliffrailway.co.uk/ but the CAT just seem to regard theirs as a means of moving people rather than as an attraction in its own right - their website has little or no information on it!

[Murphy Siding]

Interesting! Is this type of operation seasonal, or doesn't it freeze in the winter?

Thanks

[Simon Reed]

Britain has a temperate climate ( think Coastal Oregon/Washington ) so heavy frosts are rare...certainly frost heavy enough to freeze piped or tanked water.

Having said that most of the surviving funiculars in Britain are on cliffs at seaside resorts, which only tend to attract visitors in the warmer months.

Off the top of my head I think the only inland one is Bridgnorth - I'm not counting Machynlleth as inland.

Any of our American friends want to try pronouncing Machynlleth??

[Murphy Siding]

No fair! I live in a climate that can vary from 115 degrees (farenheit) to -30 degrees.[:)]

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

Yes, he's a very good writer. Christian Wolmer. I've not read his book but a lot of it has been printed in 'RAIL', a fortnightly magazine which I read. He also writes in "The Independant", a national newspaper in Britain which I often buy.

I'm about 1/4 th through this book. It starts out with a basic overview of the British rail system [:)].
Some interesting things I learned: At it's creation,in 1948,British Railways had 7000 horses used for traction in yards,with some still being used as late as 1964.[:0]. There were fewer than 4,000 freight wagons in Britain when this book was written (2001). That's not many,compared to North American railroads. There were over 50 prototype diesel designs tried out during early dieselization.
Funny to think that somewhere, there was a train yard that went straight from horsepower to diesel power!

I finished this book. I learned: 1) There's a lot of political BS in the British rail system too[:(!]. 2) The British system ate up a LOT of money(like Conrail) to get where it is today, and will require a lot more on an ongoing basis(like Amtrack). and 3) "The Fat Controller" name used in The Railway Series of books refers to an old nickname used for the general managers in British Rail days. Why did they change his name to Sir Toppum Hat,when it was adapted into Thomas the Tank Engine?

Reading this made me realize that British Railway Operations consist of mostly passenger trains, with some freight trains thrown in. In North America we're mostly freight trains with some passenger trains thrown in.

What would be the harm in spinning the system *back* into the big 4 systems of pre-1948? I mean,you still have all those classic posters for the lines.[:)]

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

Yes, he's a very good writer. Christian Wolmer. I've not read his book but a lot of it has been printed in 'RAIL', a fortnightly magazine which I read. He also writes in "The Independant", a national newspaper in Britain which I often buy.

I'm about 1/4 th through this book. It starts out with a basic overview of the British rail system [:)].
Some interesting things I learned: At it's creation,in 1948,British Railways had 7000 horses used for traction in yards,with some still being used as late as 1964.[:0]. There were fewer than 4,000 freight wagons in Britain when this book was written (2001). That's not many,compared to North American railroads. There were over 50 prototype diesel designs tried out during early dieselization.
Funny to think that somewhere, there was a train yard that went straight from horsepower to diesel power!

I finished this book. I learned: 1) There's a lot of political BS in the British rail system too[:(!]. 2) The British system ate up a LOT of money(like Conrail) to get where it is today, and will require a lot more on an ongoing basis(like Amtrack). and 3) "The Fat Controller" name used in The Railway Series of books refers to an old nickname used for the general managers in British Rail days. Why did they change his name to Sir Toppum Hat,when it was adapted into Thomas the Tank Engine?

Reading this made me realize that British Railway Operations consist of mostly passenger trains, with some freight trains thrown in. In North America we're mostly freight trains with some passenger trains thrown in.

What would be the harm in spinning the system *back* into the big 4 systems of pre-1948? I mean,you still have all those classic posters for the lines.[:)]

Some aspects of the "Big Four" were revived. The East and West Coast lines to Scotland went to competing operators, and the name "Great Western" was revived for long distance passenger trains to Wales, Devon and Cornwall. What was different was that the commuter services around London on the main routes went to separate operators, so that there was a clear concentration on those services, and any public service obligation (subsidy) payments were clearly targeted.

Awdry's books preceded the Nationalisation of BR and Sir Topham Hatt was originally called the "Fat Director". With Nationalisation, Sodor became a "Region" rather than a "Railway" and Sir Topham became a "Controller". I think this refers to a person in financial control, sometimes spelled "comptroller", and not related to train control. I assume this reflected senior staff titles after Nationalisation.

M636C

[Murphy Siding]

Is "Sodor" the name of a real railroad or real place in Britain? I know it's refered to as The Island of Sodor.

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Is "Sodor" the name of a real railroad or real place in Britain? I know it's refered to as The Island of Sodor.

The name Sodor apparently is part of the name of the area controlled by the Church of England bishop in the mainland area near Barrow, where Awdry located the mythical island of Sodor. Awdry was a Church of England minister, and would have been familiar with these titles. There wasn't a town with this name, nor a local council area.

M636C

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Is "Sodor" the name of a real railroad or real place in Britain? I know it's refered to as The Island of Sodor.

The Island of Sodor in the "Thomas" books is a myth; it is supposedly in the Irish sea between the English Lake District and the Isle of Man.

In the Church of England there is a bishopric of Man and Sodor. At one time in the supposedly Dark Ages (the period between the end of the Roman occupation of Britain in AD 410 and the Norman Conquest in 1066) there was the Kingdom of Man and Sodor. This consisted of the Isle of Man and the Outer Hebrides ( a group of islands to the NW of Scotland). The Hebrides eventually became part of Scotland in the 15th century but although the King of Scotland at that time became King of Man also the Isle of Man remains a separate kingdom with its own laws and taxations. It is not part of the United Kingdon nor the British Commonwealth but does have a 300 year old customs treaty with the UK.

Going back to the question of water haulage, as well as the water balance method that has already been described, the other method was simply to use a water wheel to haul up wagons. A lot of quarries had water wheeels to drive machinery; some later used them to generate hydro electricity and not only had electrically powered inclines but also in a few instances overhead electric locos. There was even a proposal to electrify the Ffestiniog railway in the 1900's when its major stockolder was the N. Wales Power and Aluminium co. This never happened but the Metre Gauge De La Mure railway in France, which was electrified in 1911 (and several original electric locos are still running) provides a glimpse of what it might have been like.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

Wasn't there a Monty Python sketch about trainspotting?

That sounds distinctly possible, especially when you consider that Eric Idle has pled guilty to being a trainspotter himself.

[Murphy Siding]

Trainspotting,I understand. Monty Python, I do not.

[martin.knoepfel]

Monty Python is a group of British actors. They produced several very funny movies, for example. Try to download "The life of Brian" from the internet.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by martin.knoepfel

Monty Python is a group of British actors. They produced several very funny movies, for example. Try to download "The life of Brian" from the internet.

That's the problem. I've seen several Monty Python movies, and reruns of the TV shows. I just don't get the humor, apparantly/[xx(]. On the other hand, I could watch goofy Benny Hill all day long.[:)]

[Tulyar15]

MurphySiding - have you ever seen any of the BBC "Great Railway Journeys of the World" TV programmes? Micheal Palin did at least two of these - one on Britain and one on Ireland.

Incidentally, going back to "Thomas" one of my favourite stories is the one where the Isle of Sodor is visited by two train spotting clergymen, one thin, the other fat. The thin one is a charicature of Awdry himself while the fat one is a charicature of Awdry's buddy the Rev Teddy ("Tubby!") Boston. They often used to go train watching together. "Tubby" Boston built a 2' gauge line in the grounds of his vicarage in Leicestershire but alas his widow (who kept it going for several years after his death) has decided its time to call it a day and the collection is being disbanded.

[Murphy Siding]

Speaking of Thomas, I read a story in a non-railroad magazine that just about killed me with laughter! An up and coming 20-something American journalist was sent to Britain to write an article about Thomas the Tank Engine. After interviewing the voice actor who did the narration, a Mr. R. Starr, he asked a question something along the line of: "You seem to be at-ease with this type of work. Have you worked in broadcasting or the entertainment field before?" Ringo Starr replied: "I was in a little 4-piece band once. Perhaps you've heard of us?......"

[Murphy Siding]

Simon Reed: I just received my Christmas present early![:)]. ' Haven't looked it over too closely yet, but am looking forward to it very much.


Thanks







[:D]

[Simon Reed]

Happy reading Mr. Siding!

That tempers the bad news from Nuremburg. It's not a good week for me. Firstly it's the FL9 farewell this weekend and I can't get there, secondly the prototype V200 has gone up in smoke.

Not remotely connecting to British Railway Operations but I felt the need to vent....