British Railway Operations

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding
I have a fair amount of railroad and locomotive books . I'd be happy to go and look for some info. Is there any specific type,or country you had in mind? You're right-if you get just a little bit off the norm, information gets sparse. A lot of times, a railroad book will have a picture,page or even a chapter about something out of the ordinary. Where are you in Minnesota?

I am in the St. Cloud area, middle of the state.

What I am trying to find, new or used, is some books that cover the diesel locomotives used between 1950-1970.
It is the fifties locos that probably were written about once but not for quite some time.
There is a Encyclopedia of Railroad Locomotive, or something like that, that the library has here, and I was too stupid to pickup at a antique store fifteen years ago, that gives a good rundown of the era of the end of steam and the beginning of Diesel, but I have never seen one for sale again.
Books such as that, would be my preference, as to buy singular local books will add up to, I have already done some checking, to hundreds of dollars, so a general, but era specific book, i guess is what I want.

It is hard to describe as there are books out now, some I have, but they all cover the well know locomotives steam and diesel from that era, and really ignore many of the import-export locomotives that were specific to a region or country.

Where do you get most of your books from, store, internet, or do you know of a good antique shop, sometimes they can have amazing things there, that you go to?
Have you found any euro books similar to the early locomotive spotter guides?
I am amazed that such a book does not exist, if it does not.

I am starting to ramble, so I will cut it off.
Where are you in Dakota, Sioux Falls area?
Bob

[Murphy Siding]

RPRiebe: I have some answers for you. I'm going to start a thread about this, because I believe there are a lot of other book nuts out there besides me that could help both you and I. I encourage you to add to the new thread with your question. There are even forum members in Croatia and Poland-they might have some good ideas. I live in Sioux Falls. I've ordered books from a bookstore in St. Cloud online before!

[Murphy Siding]

Were British manufacturers active in exporting diesel locomotives after WW I I ?.

[Tulyar15]

Yes, English Electric exported diesel and electric locos to a number of countries, so did Brush (who are still in business to-day) and also the Birmingham Carriage and Wagon Co exported diesel locos to a number of countries. Most of their products used Sulzer engines and were very reliable. It came as a real shock when they went bankrupt in 1963. The dieselss they supplied British Rail's Scottish and Southern regions in the 1950's and 1960's lasted well; the former (a 1100hp design) lasting to the mid 1990's
while the latter ( a similar design but with a larger 1500hp engine) survived into the new millennia and even now a few are still in use with a number of open access operators.

What killed the British builders was that under pressure from the government British Rail spread the orders too thinly, giving firms such as North British of Glasgow orders who had little experience of building diesels and problems of quality control. Firms like NB went out of business anyway whilst the good ones didn't get enough orders and they too went out of business. English Electric became part of Alsthom while Brush manage to tick over on small orders.

The other factor was that having ordered too many diesel and then the Beeching closures, BR did not order any new diesels for about ten years between 1967 and 1976.

[M636C]

Murphy,

Have you tried this site

http://www.12csv.com/index.htm

It deals with the British class 37 and equivalent Australian built locomotives.
There were nearly 300 English Electric locomotives built in Australia as well as many imported from the UK. These are widely spread now. The Australian built locomotives were equivalent to EMD and Alco export units, and were US style hood units.

Some of my photos are on this site, too!

M636C

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Murphy,

Have you tried this site

http://www.12csv.com/index.htm

It deals with the British class 37 and equivalent Australian built locomotives.
There were nearly 300 English Electric locomotives built in Australia as well as many imported from the UK. These are widely spread now. The Australian built locomotives were equivalent to EMD and Alco export units, and were US style hood units.

Some of my photos are on this site, too!

M636C

Thanks! ' Added it to my list of favorites. I sometimes forget you guys are down there.

[Anonymous]

I used to live in Zimbabwe up until about 15 years ago. I was only 11 when i last left the county but i was already aware of railways. I remember seeing English Electric locos working in multiple with American locos. I have since found out that the English Electric loco was based on the BR class 40 but its 2000hp 16 cyl engine was derated to 1600 hp due to altitude. I dont know if the old boys are still going but i doubt it. There were also some English Electric locos im Zimbabwe that had a nose a bit like an F unit at one end and a narrow long hood behind it like a GP unit, ithing they were classed DE 4, and some very similar locos were suplied to Kenya in the 1960's and are still in use i think.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Townsend

I used to live in Zimbabwe up until about 15 years ago. I was only 11 when i last left the county but i was already aware of railways. I remember seeing English Electric locos working in multiple with American locos. I have since found out that the English Electric loco was based on the BR class 40 but its 2000hp 16 cyl engine was derated to 1600 hp due to altitude. I dont know if the old boys are still going but i doubt it. There were also some English Electric locos im Zimbabwe that had a nose a bit like an F unit at one end and a narrow long hood behind it like a GP unit, ithing they were classed DE 4, and some very similar locos were suplied to Kenya in the 1960's and are still in use i think.

Your description of the DE 4 (?) sounds like the perfect *look* for a locomotive for me.[:)]

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Murphy,

Have you tried this site

http://www.12csv.com/index.htm

It deals with the British class 37 and equivalent Australian built locomotives.
There were nearly 300 English Electric locomotives built in Australia as well as many imported from the UK. These are widely spread now. The Australian built locomotives were equivalent to EMD and Alco export units, and were US style hood units.

Some of my photos are on this site, too!

M636C

Most things I've read about Austrailian diesel locomotives lead me to believe that American designs were more prevelant that British designs, is that so? Does Australia have any home-grown diesel locomotive builders?
Thanks

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Murphy,

Have you tried this site

http://www.12csv.com/index.htm

It deals with the British class 37 and equivalent Australian built locomotives.
There were nearly 300 English Electric locomotives built in Australia as well as many imported from the UK. These are widely spread now. The Australian built locomotives were equivalent to EMD and Alco export units, and were US style hood units.

Some of my photos are on this site, too!

M636C

Most things I've read about Austrailian diesel locomotives lead me to believe that American designs were more prevelant that British designs, is that so? Does Australia have any home-grown diesel locomotive builders?
Thanks

Murphy,

We are getting off the "British" topic a bit here, but I guess British exports are close enough. A site listing all diesel locomotives in Australia is

http://locopage.railpage.org.au/

If you go to "Queensland Rail/ Interail" and "1250/1270" class you will see a photo of one of the cab/hood locomotives (1251) as also used in Africa and described in an earlier post. It is a forerunner of the US "wide nose" locomotive now being built.

Between a third and a quarter of units in Australia used British power equipment. But you can get your impression by looking at the site. A complete list of builder's numbers can be downloaded as a zipped Excel file, but that might be more than you need. But look at the pictures and lists and I'll try to answer any other questions.

M636C

[Anonymous]

I tell you what. I am a Brit (not English - notice). I have learn't more reading some of this (if accurate! :-)...) then in many years getting slowly disillusioned by the industry in which I work.

[Murphy Siding]

M636C: Thanks for the link. I'm just curious by nature, I guess.

cogload: I've learned a lot too![:)]. At the risk of sounding somewhat ignorant (again),can you explain the Brit/English comment?


Thanks

[M636C]

Murphy,

Britain refers to the United Kingdom, consisting of England, Scotland, Wales and five counties in Northern Ireland. The flag, the "Union Jack" consists of superimposing the red square cross of England, the white diagonal cross of Scotland (on blue) and the red diagonal cross of Wales. Northern Ireland misses out, as usual.

If you are talking about the the English, you are referring only to people from south of Carlisle and east of the Severn river (more or less - my geography isn't that good, and for simplicity I'm ignoring Cornwall which isn't really English either)

So the company at Preston that built diesels was called "English Electric" but the locomotive factory in Glasgow was called "North British", at least partly because being in Scotland it wasn't English!

In the UK, a similar problem exists in that they believe all Americans are "Yankees" while most people realise this term is limited to the North East of the USA.

My grandfather emigrated to Australia from Aberdeen, so my heritage is Scots. But if I'm in London during the England - Scotland football match, I'm from Australia, and have nothing to do with either group of drunken hooligans.

M636C

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C
Britain refers to the United Kingdom, consisting of England, Scotland, Wales and five counties in Northern Ireland. The flag, the "Union Jack" consists of superimposing the red square cross of England, the white diagonal cross of Scotland (on blue) and the red diagonal cross of Wales. Northern Ireland misses out, as usual.

Couldn't the UK at least make the Union Jack with a green background for us poor ol' Eirelanders? I guess adding a four leaf clover is right out!

QUOTE:
If you are talking about the the English, you are referring only to people from south of Carlisle and east of the Severn river (more or less - my geography isn't that good, and for simplicity I'm ignoring Cornwall which isn't really English either)

So is Cornwall the British equivalent of our Rio Linda?

QUOTE:

In the UK, a similar problem exists in that they believe all Americans are "Yankees" while most people realise this term is limited to the North East of the USA.

Actually, them Northeasterners are a bunch of Tories who still wi***hey were subject to the Crown. How else can one explain Ted Kennedy, Jim Jeffers, and Hillary Clinton, et al?

[Murphy Siding]

futuredave: Why in the world would you want to interject American politics into a perfectly good thread?[:(] Hiss! Boo!

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C
Britain refers to the United Kingdom, consisting of England, Scotland, Wales and five counties in Northern Ireland. The flag, the "Union Jack" consists of superimposing the red square cross of England, the white diagonal cross of Scotland (on blue) and the red diagonal cross of Wales. Northern Ireland misses out, as usual.

Couldn't the UK at least make the Union Jack with a green background for us poor ol' Eirelanders? I guess adding a four leaf clover is right out!

QUOTE:
If you are talking about the the English, you are referring only to people from south of Carlisle and east of the Severn river (more or less - my geography isn't that good, and for simplicity I'm ignoring Cornwall which isn't really English either)

So is Cornwall the British equivalent of our Rio Linda?

QUOTE:

In the UK, a similar problem exists in that they believe all Americans are "Yankees" while most people realise this term is limited to the North East of the USA.

Actually, them Northeasterners are a bunch of Tories who still wi***hey were subject to the Crown. How else can one explain Ted Kennedy, Jim Jeffers, and Hillary Clinton, et al?

I just said that Yankees were from the North East!

It's up to you what you make of them.

I'm from Australia, remember!

M636C

[james saunders]

go Australia... my heritage is welsh (mainly) so yeah GO Wales...

bloody yanks no everything dont they...[:D]

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Murphy,

Britain refers to the United Kingdom, consisting of England, Scotland, Wales and five counties in Northern Ireland. The flag, the "Union Jack" consists of superimposing the red square cross of England, the white diagonal cross of Scotland (on blue) and the red diagonal cross of Wales. Northern Ireland misses out, as usual.

No the red diagonal cross represents Ireland (the cross of St. Patrick). It is Wales that misses out, the Welsh flag is a red dragon in the middle of the flag, with white horizontal bar above a green. Incidentally the Northern Ireland flag is similar to the English one, ie the cross of St. George, but with the hand of Ulster in the middle of the cross. The modern flag of the Irish Republic consists of three horizontal bands, green at the top, white in the middle and orange at the bottom. The old Irish flag is still used by the Irish Rugby squad I think. Unlike other sports such as soccer where there are separate NI and Irish Republic sides in Rugby there is just one all-Ireland side which represents all of Ireland in the 6 nations championship. So Rugby is one sport that truly unites the Irish!

Rugby matches generate extra traffic for the railways. I think I've already mentioned how Iarnrod Eireann and Northern Ireland Railways lay on extra trains to Dublin when Ireland are at home. Likewise in Britain extra trains are laid on to Cardiff when Wales are at home, often resulting in loco hauled trains. Rugby is the most popular sport in Wales and the best match for producing extra trains is when Wales play England at Cardiff as many English fans just travel there for the day. Fans of the other 6 nations (Ireland, Scotland, France and Italy) tend to make a weekend of it so their travel is more spread out.

[M636C]

Tulyar,

You are right of course. If I'd thought about the names of the saints I would have got it right! For the record the English flag is that of St George and the Scots flag is that of St Andrew, as I described above. The red diagonal cross on white is indeed that of St Patrick, and thus belongs to Ireland. From this distance, a united Ireland looks more likely, at least to the extent of a reduction in sectarian violence. With that gone and both countries being EC members, you'll just have to change your Euros in Belfast when moving north.

For what it is worth, I played Rugby at high school, but it was the soccer matches in London that I was describing. I'm pleased to have gone to a match at the old Wembley stadium - quite impressive and historic (and gone like so much railway infrastructure).
I'm sure that rail will still serve Wembley when it is rebuilt - I used London Transport for my visit.

M636C

[martin.knoepfel]

In soccer, there are still separate English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Iri***eams. If you look at soccer plays between these countries, you can watch the flags. Similar thing in boxing.

@Murphy. If you like to keep all your teeth, you better do not tell a Scot you believes he is an Englishman.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

futuredave: Why in the world would you want to interject American politics into a perfectly good thread?[:(] Hiss! Boo!

Oops, forgot the smilies to indicate that it is all in jest.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by martin.knoepfel

In soccer, there are still separate English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Iri***eams. If you look at soccer plays between these countries, you can watch the flags. Similar thing in boxing.

@Murphy. If you like to keep all your teeth, you better do not tell a Scot you believes he is an Englishman.

Boy-now you have me worried. I can't remember if any of you fellas is Scottish![:0]. I do remember one of you (cogload I *think*) is Cornish? Collectively,are the citizens of the British Isles considered British? What about those who live in Northern Ireland?
I know that, collectively,we call ourselves Americans. It seems a lot of Brits(there I go again[:)]), and Australians refer to us as Yankees, or Yanks?Is that pretty common?
I know that this is off-topic,but,what the heck. We share a somewhat common heritage,a common language, and we all seem to have an interest in trains.

I do thank you all for your posts!

[Simon Reed]

Murphy - magazines on their way.

I don't feel that I ought to join in the discussion about a dis-United Kingdom. I was born in Lancashire but now live in Yorkshire with a Scottish partner and consider myself European....

[Anonymous]

I posted a general question with its own thread, but perhaps you gents here could give who, what, where from the UK side.

Who designed the UK locomotives, in country and export, and why did fifties models, US and UK use the "nose" design which was similar ?

Why did it go out of use?

Euro bread-loaf designs, I imagine, are simple to design and slightly better than the box cab things that are now in use, but the lacked--style.(God only knows what influenced the bizarre Alsthom design the French used.)
Bob

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RPRiebe

I posted a general question with its own thread, but perhaps you gents here could give who, what, where from the UK side.

Who designed the UK locomotives, in country and export, and why did fifties models, US and UK use the "nose" design which was similar ?

Why did it go out of use?

Euro bread-loaf designs, I imagine, are simple to design and slightly better than the box cab things that are now in use, but the lacked--style.(God only knows what influenced the bizarre Alsthom design the French used.)
Bob

A lot of the older British diesel locomotives look to me like the noses were all made by the "ACME Locomotive Nose CO." [:)]

[martin.knoepfel]

No legal difference whether you are from England, Scotland, Ulster (=Northern Ireland) or Wales.Gordon Brown, who will most probably be the next Prime Minister, is Scottish.

The Republic of Ireland is of course an independant country. It has a seat in the UN and in the EU.

[nanaimo73]

This site looks interesting
http://www.wnxx.com/

[Anonymous]

That site is quite entertaining - follow those links as well and you may find where I pick my handle from (hint - look in the location specific pages)

Ok - back to the off topic subject for a minute. Many of our overseas friends seem to think that I am English. This is because I have an English accent. Yeah. They also seem to think that London=England and that England=United Kingdom. My nationality is British reflecting the fact that though I was born in England, I have Scots Ancestry and one set of parents live in Wales. And if you want to take it to extremes I live in Cornwall. The Cornish (native ones) dont regard themselves as "English" for a variety of reasons which stretch back to Gildas and his ranting and the invasion of the English/Jutes/various others from about the year 400AD on onwards.

Recommended reading for this subject = Anglo Saxon England (Oxford History of England series) by Sir Frank Stenton. Where incidentally you can find out about King Arthur as well (mentioned in one epic Welsh poem - the Goddin)

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RPRiebe

I posted a general question with its own thread, but perhaps you gents here could give who, what, where from the UK side.

Who designed the UK locomotives, in country and export, and why did fifties models, US and UK use the "nose" design which was similar ?

Why did it go out of use?

Euro bread-loaf designs, I imagine, are simple to design and slightly better than the box cab things that are now in use, but they lacked--style.(God only knows what influenced the bizarre Alsthom design the French used.)
Bob

The nose designs in the UK are largely due to English Electric and their drawing office. In 1948 they delivered six units to Egypt with full rounded EMD style noses, but with three windscreens instead of two. Slightly earlier, EE designed the locomotives 10000 and 10001 built in 1947 and 1948 built in the LMS Workshops. This had a shortened version of the rounded nose.

In 1955, the Blue prototype "Deltic" was built with more rectangular noses but with only two windscreens. Some export locomotives, particularly for Malaya, were built to this design (but with the conventional 12SVT engine).

When the "Pilot Scheme" locomotives appeared around 1958, the English Electric Type 4 (class 40) had a version of the "10000" three windscreen design was used with a curved top design (that matched the roof profile) but with sharper corners. This was also used, with shorter noses, on the "Baby Delics" and the class 37.

But the BR Workshops had a contract to build similar locomotives with Sulzer engines, and they too drew upon 10000, which they had built, for inspiration, and their version was more like the 1947 design. These units became the Class 44 and similar classes 45 and 46 followed.

In 1962, a batch of production "Deltics" was built, and these followed the 1955 design simplified and modified to allow use in tighter clearances. About the same time the Class 47 appeared as a successor to the classes 44-46, and it had the noseless design used for subsequent locomotives, partly to reduce weight, which had been a criticism of the earlier designs.

The French locomotives were styled by an industrial designer Paul Arzens. He started off by putting "arrowhead" designs (which incorporated the radiator and air intake grilles)on the sides of relatively normal box cab locomotives such as classes 67000 and 68000. Later he introduced the reverse angle cab windows on the 40100 electrics (which had a stainless steel body) and the 72000 class diesels. This design did reduce internal reflections in the cab at night.

In the USA, noses went away with the move to hood units, which gave better access to engines and other equipment. Noses came back with the Cowl units and now are used on hood units for better crew protection.

M636C

[Murphy Siding]

OK. I'll presume it's allright to call you guys Brits?
I'm searching the link from nanaimo73,looking for clues about where cogload picks up his handle.[:)]. No luck, but I'm looking.
I probably sound like a nut, with all the questions,but I do find the answers interesting. Some time back, I read about *train spotting* in Britain. Can anyone explain that to me?

Thanks