British Railway Operations

[Murphy Siding]

Simon Reed sent me 3 British Railroad magazines.[:)]. These people are into heavy-duty railroad reading. Each one is like a book. He sent along a nice letter, saying he had visited 47 of the 50 states,traveled 25,000 miles on Amtrak, and has been through the city I live in. (Sioux Falls, SD). Although the magazines are written in *English*, there is somewhat of a language issue that make them interesting to follow at some parts! I may have to invest in an Engli***o English dictionary.[;)]


One article mentions steam on British rails long after I would have thought it was still used. When was the last use of steam locomotives in regular service in Britain?

Thanks

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

One article mentions steam on British rails long after I would have thought it was still used. When was the last use of steam locomotives in regular service in Britain?

Thanks

British Rail got rid of standard gauge steam locos in 1968, but it continued to own and operate the 2' guage Vale of Rheidol in Wales until 1986. Since then the VofR has been in private ownership (much to Futuremodal's disappointment it was sold off lock stock and barrel as a vertically integrated operation to the highest bidder).

London Underground continued to use steam locos for works trains on the Metropolitan line until 1971; British Coal, our former state owned coal company had several steam locos in use at mine up till the mid 1980's. The most of these were ones it had bought new in the 1950's but it did also buy some second hand locos from BR. The last of these to remain in use was ex GWR Pannier No. 7754 which was used at Mountain Ash colliery in south Wales up till 1980; it's now preserved on the Llangollen Railway.

[Simon Reed]

But scheduled steam has worked over the West Highland Extension (Fort William-Mallaig) every summer for the last 11 years, and there's at least one steam operated special on the main line every weekend of the year, and many midweek specials too.

Glad you're enjoying them. For the benefit of our UK readers Mr Siding has a copy of Railway Magazine, Steam Railway and Traction to digest at his leisure.

[Murphy Siding]

Traction is a magazine all about locomotives. Do we have something similar on this side of the Atlantic?

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

One article mentions steam on British rails long after I would have thought it was still used. When was the last use of steam locomotives in regular service in Britain?

Thanks

British Rail got rid of standard gauge steam locos in 1968, but it continued to own and operate the 2' guage Vale of Rheidol in Wales until 1986. Since then the VofR has been in private ownership (much to Futuremodal's disappointment it was sold off lock stock and barrel as a vertically integrated operation to the highest bidder).

London Underground continued to use steam locos for works trains on the Metropolitan line until 1971; British Coal, our former state owned coal company had several steam locos in use at mine up till the mid 1980's. The most of these were ones it had bought new in the 1950's but it did also buy some second hand locos from BR. The last of these to remain in use was ex GWR Pannier No. 7754 which was used at Mountain Ash colliery in south Wales up till 1980; it's now preserved on the Llangollen Railway.

Wouldn't London Underground be *under ground*? How does that work with a steam engine?

Thanks

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15
British Rail got rid of standard gauge steam locos in 1968, but it continued to own and operate the 2' guage Vale of Rheidol in Wales until 1986. Since then the VofR has been in private ownership (much to Futuremodal's disappointment it was sold off lock stock and barrel as a vertically integrated operation to the highest bidder).

I have no objections to shortline, tourist, and/or other quaint railroad operations remaining as closed access systems, because the ability of these entities to extract monopolistic excesses from the general public is extremely limited if not altogether impossible. Eat your heart out, V of R!(insert back slap smilie here)

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

One article mentions steam on British rails long after I would have thought it was still used. When was the last use of steam locomotives in regular service in Britain?

Thanks

British Rail got rid of standard gauge steam locos in 1968, but it continued to own and operate the 2' guage Vale of Rheidol in Wales until 1986. Since then the VofR has been in private ownership (much to Futuremodal's disappointment it was sold off lock stock and barrel as a vertically integrated operation to the highest bidder).

London Underground continued to use steam locos for works trains on the Metropolitan line until 1971; British Coal, our former state owned coal company had several steam locos in use at mine up till the mid 1980's. The most of these were ones it had bought new in the 1950's but it did also buy some second hand locos from BR. The last of these to remain in use was ex GWR Pannier No. 7754 which was used at Mountain Ash colliery in south Wales up till 1980; it's now preserved on the Llangollen Railway.

Wouldn't London Underground be *under ground*? How does that work with a steam engine?

Thanks

OK, London Underground 101

There are two types of lines

Surface and sub surface lines
Tube lines or deep level lines.

The surface and sub surface lines run full size trains (well full size for the UK where they are pretty small anyway). Sometimes the tracks are shared with longer distance trains, and in the outer areas, former "main line" railways have been taken over.

The "tube" lines are literally tubes, often made from cast iron segments (or more recently pre-cast concrete). They are dug through clay deep below London using tunnelling shields, the segmented tunnel lining being assembled immediately behind the shield. These tunnels are twelve feet in inside diameter and the trains have to fit this space, and are of course much lower in height than even British normal trains.

Both these tube trains and the surface line trains run on track electrified with four rails, two running rails and one positive and one negative conductor rail. The negative rail is central and the positive rail is outside, changing from side to side as convenient.

The underground sections of the sub surface lines are usually in cuttings or shallow tunnels built by the cut and cover system. The earliest of these were originally operated by steam locomotives which had a simple form of condensation. The steam was diverted from the blast pipe into pipes into the water tanks. This removed the draft on the fire, so smoke and gas production (and steam production too) was cut dramatically. The train continued on with the existing steam in the boiler with most steam being condensed by passing through the water tanks. Thus the conditions in the tunnels were not as bad as if conventional steam locomotives were used.

The "main line" railways sometimes continued to use steam locomotives for freight operations, usually at night when passenger service was infrequent or had ceased.

London Transport had used conventional steam locomotives on the outer areas of the surface lines, and these trains were hauled into London by electric locomotives. Eventually, these trains were discontintinued, but steam locomotives were still used on track maintenance trains on the surface sections. Battery locomotives, all small enough for the deep tube lines are used in the tunnel sections, and diesels have since been purchased to replace the steam.

Some of the later condensing locomotives, and some conventional locomotives were purchased from British Railways in the late 1960s to replace the very old steam locomotives on maintenance duties, and thus they continued in occasional use (and for steam hauled enthusiast trips on lines all on the surface) for quite some time after BR steam finished in 1968.

M636C

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

One article mentions steam on British rails long after I would have thought it was still used. When was the last use of steam locomotives in regular service in Britain?

Thanks

British Rail got rid of standard gauge steam locos in 1968, but it continued to own and operate the 2' guage Vale of Rheidol in Wales until 1986. Since then the VofR has been in private ownership (much to Futuremodal's disappointment it was sold off lock stock and barrel as a vertically integrated operation to the highest bidder).

London Underground continued to use steam locos for works trains on the Metropolitan line until 1971; British Coal, our former state owned coal company had several steam locos in use at mine up till the mid 1980's. The most of these were ones it had bought new in the 1950's but it did also buy some second hand locos from BR. The last of these to remain in use was ex GWR Pannier No. 7754 which was used at Mountain Ash colliery in south Wales up till 1980; it's now preserved on the Llangollen Railway.

The VofR is in good shape - I was driving into Aberystwyth yesterday and saw the plume of smoke, didn't know they ran this late in the season. The advice on their website about ensuring that you don't miss the last train back from Devil's Bridge is very good - it's about 18 miles or so by road from Aberystwyth and is really out in the middle of nowhere. There used to be a thriving mining operation up there and if you drive a little further into the hills you can see the ruined buildings and spoil heaps near a tiny village named Cwmystwyth. I think they even had a little 2ft gauge mine railway as in one place there are two rusting rails poking out from the tarmac at the edge of the road - presumably the remains of a crossing.

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding


Wouldn't London Underground be *under ground*? How does that work with a steam engine?

Thanks

It's not a problem given that more than half of the Underground is actualy on the surface.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15
British Rail got rid of standard gauge steam locos in 1968, but it continued to own and operate the 2' guage Vale of Rheidol in Wales until 1986. Since then the VofR has been in private ownership (much to Futuremodal's disappointment it was sold off lock stock and barrel as a vertically integrated operation to the highest bidder).

I have no objections to shortline, tourist, and/or other quaint railroad operations remaining as closed access systems, because the ability of these entities to extract monopolistic excesses from the general public is extremely limited if not altogether impossible. Eat your heart out, V of R!(insert back slap smilie here)

Eat your heart out, V of R ? (insert scoobie doo rhuh? smilie here)[C=:-)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15
British Rail got rid of standard gauge steam locos in 1968, but it continued to own and operate the 2' guage Vale of Rheidol in Wales until 1986. Since then the VofR has been in private ownership (much to Futuremodal's disappointment it was sold off lock stock and barrel as a vertically integrated operation to the highest bidder).

I have no objections to shortline, tourist, and/or other quaint railroad operations remaining as closed access systems, because the ability of these entities to extract monopolistic excesses from the general public is extremely limited if not altogether impossible. Eat your heart out, V of R!(insert back slap smilie here)

Eat your heart out, V of R ? (insert scoobie doo rhuh? smilie here)[C=:-)]

Yes, you know, like "knock yourself out" or "break a leg" e.g. a variation of "go for it!"

And if you don't think that "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" is the funniest movie of all time, you may need to get your head examined.

[Murphy Siding]

Thanks for the explanation of the Underground. I live in a very rural state-definately no subways here. Do other large cities in Great Britain have underground subways too? My only familiarity with the underground is in reading about their use as bomb shelters.
As you can see, we Americans have a hard time understanding things,because we can't understand each other![:P].........Oh yea-.........eat your heart out.[;)]

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Thanks for the explanation of the Underground. I live in a very rural state-definately no subways here. Do other large cities in Great Britain have underground subways too? My only familiarity with the underground is in reading about their use as bomb shelters.
As you can see, we Americans have a hard time understanding things,because we can't understand each other![:P].........Oh yea-........eat your heart out.[;)]

It doesn't help that Londoners often refer to all Underground lines as "The Tube", either, regardless of the type of tunnel used. The term "Overground" is often used for the former British Rail lines, some of which run in tunnels under London.

Glasgow also has a tube style subway, originally operated by cable but now an electric line. Because the most recent cars were painted orange, the subway gained the nickname "The Clockwork Orange".

M636C

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Thanks for the explanation of the Underground. I live in a very rural state-definately no subways here. Do other large cities in Great Britain have underground subways too? My only familiarity with the underground is in reading about their use as bomb shelters.
As you can see, we Americans have a hard time understanding things,because we can't understand each other![:P].........Oh yea-.........eat your heart out.[;)]

Liverpool has an "underground system" courtesy of the former Mersey Railway / Wirral Railways tunnels under the River Mersey. Back in the 1970s, the local Passenger Transport Executive invested in an imaginative scheme of tunnelling so as to connect two former termini to give a North West - South East through service, with another loop tunnel such that incoming trains from BirKenhead on the Wirral Peninsula would travel clockwise around the loop, connecting with stations on the NW-SE line, and also serving Lime Street Station, the Inter City Terminus.

Incidentally, the erstwhile Liverpool Overhead Railway was the UK's nearest equivalent to a US Elevated Line. Sadly it was demolished in the 1950s, but was reputed to be very popular, as it afforded passengers a grandstand view of the shipping in the Docks and the River, and the clincher was, I believe, the cost of maintaining the continuous bridge structure.

Also, the Tyneside Metro system burrows underneath Newcastle and Gateshead in NE England, so I suppose that should qualify that as an "underground system", too.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Thanks for the explanation of the Underground. I live in a very rural state-definately no subways here. Do other large cities in Great Britain have underground subways too? My only familiarity with the underground is in reading about their use as bomb shelters.
As you can see, we Americans have a hard time understanding things,because we can't understand each other![:P].........Oh yea-........eat your heart out.[;)]

It doesn't help that Londoners often refer to all Underground lines as "The Tube", either, regardless of the type of tunnel used. The term "Overground" is often used for the former British Rail lines, some of which run in tunnels under London.

M636C

That sounds a lot like the way we Chicagoans refer to our rapid transit system as the "L", regardless of where it runs, be it a subway, expressway (motorway) median strip or elevated structure. I understand that New Yorkers refer to their system as the Subway, even when it runs above ground.

[Murphy Siding]

Are all these systems *old*? reletively speaking?

Thanks.

[Anonymous]

The London system dates back to the mid 1800s - it's since been expanded dramatically. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground has a good potted history of the system.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

The London system dates back to the mid 1800s - it's since been expanded dramatically. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground has a good potted history of the system.

Thanks. That was an interesting read. In 1880, the underground was serving 40,000,000 passengers a year! That's quite an achievement in modern times. Hard to believe that could be done 125 years ago.[8D]

[morseman]

about ten years or so ago, I was in the Manchester station
There was a charge of, I believe, one pound for persons
to go onto the platforms without a train ticket. This I believe
was to assist paying passengers with their luggage, greeting
incoming friends or relatives, or seeing them off.

Great for railfans. Did many other stations have this
charge , Is it still in effect, or has it been discontinued
due to these uncertain times???

[Anonymous]

I think platform tickets may still exist in some places, though I'm not sure. At smaller stations there's nothing to stop you wandering onto the platform (no ticket needed and often nobody about) though larger ones now have gates in an effort to stop fare dodgers. Bristol Temple Meads used to be quite a good station to railfan on though I'm not sure that you'd be able to get trackside now without a ticket due to the new gates.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

That site is quite entertaining - follow those links as well and you may find where I pick my handle from (hint - look in the location specific pages)

Ok - back to the off topic subject for a minute. Many of our overseas friends seem to think that I am English. This is because I have an English accent. Yeah. They also seem to think that London=England and that England=United Kingdom. My nationality is British reflecting the fact that though I was born in England, I have Scots Ancestry and one set of parents live in Wales. And if you want to take it to extremes I live in Cornwall. The Cornish (native ones) dont regard themselves as "English" for a variety of reasons which stretch back to Gildas and his ranting and the invasion of the English/Jutes/various others from about the year 400AD on onwards..

Recommended reading for this subject = Anglo Saxon England (Oxford History of England series) by Sir Frank Stenton. Where incidentally you can find out about King Arthur as well (mentioned in one epic Welsh poem - the Goddin)

cogload: I've been over that site a lot, and learned a lot.[:)] But, I can't find the reference to the cogload handle. Care to explain?

Thanks

[Anonymous]

Cogload is the name of the junction where the line from Bristol and the line from Paddington join on the way down to cornwall - guess there must be some connection

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f
[
Also, the Tyneside Metro system burrows underneath Newcastle and Gateshead in NE England, so I suppose that should qualify that as an "underground system", too.

The Tyne and Wear Metro in Newcastle-upon-Tyne mostly uses lines that used to belong to British Rail up to the 1970's. It built new tunnels in the city centre. Since it opened in 1980, it has been extended to the city's airport using an abandoned track bed, and to the neighbouring city of Sunderland, reached by sharing the main line track. Many of the lines it acquired from BR were electrified on 3rd rail in the 1900's only to be de-electrified in the 1960's (the argument being the infrastructure was worn out and they had lots of spare DMU's as a result of branch line closures). Nowadays it is electrified on 1,500 V dc overhead.

[owlsroost]

Cogload Junction - http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?lat=51.0381&lon=-2.9998&scale=25000&icon=x (the rail lines are black, from London on the right, Bristol at the top, to Devon and Cornwall at the bottom).

It's a very well known, high speed fly-over (grade separated) junction.

In this photo - http://tauntontrains.fotopic.net/p12455035.html - the train is on the 'Berks & Hants' line from London. The line on the fly-over is the 'Bristol & Exeter' railway, originally built by Brunel as a broad (7 foot) gauge route. This route to Exeter via Bristol earned the GWR the nickname "Great Way Round", hence the shorter 'Berks & Hants' route to London via Newbury was opened eventually, creating Cogload Junction.

Tony

[Murphy Siding]

Cogload Junction....Murphy Siding...I like that. Both have a nice railroad ring to them.[:)]. I would presume that rail lines built to the Brunel 7 foot broad gauge would have built-in,wider clearances than those built to standard guage? Judging from all the pictures I've viewed on these links, it appears that all of British rail stock is built to a shorter height clearance than North American stock. With the channel tunnel, how do the clearance dimensions compare to other European stock that may show up in Britain.

As always, thanks to all for the info..

[martin.knoepfel]

The British Railways have indeed smaller clearances than Continental Europe. For example, it is not possible to run bilevels in suburban trains, which is a large problem in a town like London.

The rolling stock runnig through the Chunnel from France to the UK has to be built to the British clearances or is limited to the Chunnel and a few miles beyond like the truck-hauling freight cars. There are some freight cars designed for trains to the UK, for example low-slung two-axle container-cars. A sleeper trains used to connect London to Paris via ferry. It used cars built to the British clearances. The engines did not cross the Channel.

The Eurostar high-speed-trains are visibly smaller than the French TGV's (and equipped with electric shoes for the Southern Regions third rail). The high-speed-track from the British side of the Chunnel to London is not yet completed (2007?)

[Anonymous]

The ex-GWR broad gauge lines (which were all reguaged back in GWR days) do indeed have a wider clearance - the GWR took full advantage of this and built some stock that was wider than standard (the "Centenary" coaches as modelled by Hornby were one type). A series of "Excursion" coaches were built that were noticably narrower than standard (intended as the name suggests for interchange with other lines). The practice has continued - the class 165 DMU is built to a slightly wider clearance than its near-twin the class 166 and therefore cannot run on some lines. I think the most recent problem was with the filming for the Harry Potter films - apparently "Hogwarts Castle" (actually "Oulton Hall") had problems with cylinders hitting the platform edges in Scotland.

Double-deck stock was briefly tried over here by Bulleid with his "4DD" 4-car electric units - two were built though they were not popular due to the cramped interiors (they were not true double deckers - the compartments were staggered high and low in an effort to get more seats into a given length). More info here: http://www.semg.org.uk/gallery/4dd.html I think two driving cars survive though neither is in very good condition - they are both the subject of long-term restorations.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by martin.knoepfel

The British Railways have indeed smaller clearances than Continental Europe. For example, it is not possible to run bilevels in suburban trains, which is a large problem in a town like London.

The rolling stock runnig through the Chunnel from France to the UK has to be built to the British clearances or is limited to the Chunnel and a few miles beyond like the truck-hauling freight cars. There are some freight cars designed for trains to the UK, for example low-slung two-axle container-cars. A sleeper trains used to connect London to Paris via ferry. It used cars built to the British clearances. The engines did not cross the Channel.

The Eurostar high-speed-trains are visibly smaller than the French TGV's (and equipped with electric shoes for the Southern Regions third rail). The high-speed-track from the British side of the Chunnel to London is not yet completed (2007?)

With the low clearances on the British side, is there then no TOFC at all in Britian? Someone had mentioned that there was also no bi-modal trailers running on British rails, so does that mean that all truckload stuff goes by container?

I suppose you could run TOFC using well cars, but you guys don't have those either!

[Anonymous]

The typical maximum vertical clearance in the U.K. is only about 12 to 13 feet. This makes TOFC impractical. There is COFC however. Furthermore since the UK has many electrified sections and hilly areas, any clearance project would be prohibitively expensive.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

With the low clearances on the British side, is there then no TOFC at all in Britian? Someone had mentioned that there was also no bi-modal trailers running on British rails, so does that mean that all truckload stuff goes by container?

I suppose you could run TOFC using well cars, but you guys don't have those either!

There have been some attempts at TOFC.

Here is a site about one Piggyback service running in the UK
http://www.piggybacktrial.com/