British Railway Operations

[Murphy Siding]

Is all the container traffic goods coming into Britain from China? Or, does it come from other sources as well? How about out-bound container traffic? Is there any of that to speak of?

Thanks

[Tulyar15]

There is quite a bit of out bound container traffic too. After all 50% of Britain's trade is with the rest of the EU. Of the freight trains that leave Britain thru the Channel tunnel, the percentage going to each of our neighbours is roughly:-

France - 30%
Italy - 30%
Spain - 25%
others - 15%

Generally as a nation Britain imports raw materials and fuel and exports manufactured goods. In some cases car manufacturers (or rather their logistics contractors who use EWS or the other freight co's as sub-contractors) managed to get good use out of their wagons by using them to take cars made in Britain to the continent and returning with cars in the other direction. As an example, when the Chunnel first opened the wagons used to ship Rover cars to Italy from Birmingham to Turin would return from Turin to Bristol with Fiat cars - thus the only empty mileage was the 90 miles from Bristol to Birmingam to complete the triangle.

Some years ago when I lived in Hull (one of Britain's main east coast ports) I went to a talk by the harbour master. He said that in the 19th century the port developed to handle exports of coal to Russia and imports of grain from Russia. But now its the other way round!

As for goods from China, there's been talk of some passenger operators buying cheap DMU's from China but that seens to have gone off the boil. The new commuter trains for the Channel Tunnel Rail Link are being built in Japan; these will provide a 140mph commuter service from London to the Kent Coast towns of Ramsgate, Dover and Folkestone via the Channel Tunnel Rail Link and will halve journey times.

[beaulieu]

I knew about the stone traffic I just drew a blank when making my list [banghead]
There would be a lot more traffic through the Channel tunnel if the eastern portal was just barely in Belgium, not that they approve of Open Access, but it is easier to twist their arms.

[Murphy Siding]

Tulyar15 : Thanks. That was very interesting. I take it that the chunnel has been helpful in building trade with continental Europe. Before the chunnel was built, did Britain do this much trading with,for example, Italy? Or. has the chunnel accelerated it?
My reference to China was about cheap consumer goods coming in containers. In the USA, we're flooded with *stuff* from China. This *stuff* makes up a lot of rail traffic.

Thanks

[Anonymous]

Before the tunnel, there was trade, but sending rail cars was difficult due to the need to use the train ferries. There was even a "Boat Train" which used sleepers built to the UK loading gauge and travelled overnight via the ferry - passengers would depart London, be shunted onto the ferry in Dover, and land at Dunkirk (where the most recent train ferry linkspan still survives though it's now out of use and the rails have been partially tarmaced over to give access to the new road linkspan alongside it - I have a rather poor photo of it taken with a camera phone from the deck of a Norfolk Line RoRo ferry this summer if anyone is interested?). I think there were one or maybe two sailings per day of freight. Interestingly the final train ferries built for the route were designed to be multi-purpose so that they would still be useful in the event of a tunnel opening - I think the old Sea France Nord Pas de Calais (the last train ferry used on the route) is still running as a freight ferry. Specially designed rail cars were built for the ferry services - they had to be small enough to run in the UK loading gauge and usually displayed an anchor symbol on the data panel to show that they were equipped with the required tie-down points for ferry use.

We too see an increasing quantity of Chinese-made goods coming in, though I think this is mainly by ship and then either truck or train from the port rather than through the tunnel. I'd guess that continuing around Europe to the UK is cheaper than leaving the cargo in Italy and sending it on by rail, though I'm not sure of the economics of that - my main knowledge of container operations comes from watching ships whenever possible!

[Murphy Siding]

I'm trying to envision a British coal train. Our coal trains would have 3-4 big diesels of perhaps 10,000 to 12,000 H.P. pulling 100 or so 265,000# ( or more ) cars of coal. This must really differ from a British coal train. Are coal trains, and freight trains in general, pushed hard to run at passenger train speeds?

Thanks

[owlsroost]

British coal trains these days are mostly comprised of 15-20 4-axle 100 tonne (glw) hopper wagons hauled by a single 3200hp class 66 diesel. These can run up to 75mph, but I suspect they are limited to 60mph or less on secondary routes because of their 25 tonne axle loading.

I think there are still some services worked with older 2-axle 45 tonne hopper wagons - these are restricted to 60 or 45 mph.

See http://www.ews-railway.co.uk/services/services_bulk_coal.asp and http://www.freightliner.co.uk/heavyhaul/coal.asp

Freight train speed is 45-75 mph, passenger 75-125 mph (generally).

Tony

[Hugh Jampton]

These are the 2-axle coal wagons that I see mostly;
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/wagons/1-100/t355443.jpg

The newer 4 axle ones are replacing these on some routes where clearances are not so much of an issue;
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/wagons/901-1000/370xxx.jpg

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

These are the 2-axle coal wagons that I see mostly;
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/wagons/1-100/t355443.jpg

The newer 4 axle ones are replacing these on some routes where clearances are not so much of an issue;
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/wagons/901-1000/370xxx.jpg

In looking at the British coal wagons, the word that comes to mind is *cute* How are these unloaded?
Hugh: your signature line says you are "generally a lurker" I wish you'd post more. You're posts are interesting and appreciated.

Thanks

[Anonymous]

They unload from hopper doors underneath - the train runs slowly through the unloading area and coal falls out onto a conveyor belt. I'm not sure whether the doors need someone to pull a handle and open them or if they're automated, though I'd guess the former.

[martin.knoepfel]

The Foster Yeoman stone-trains were able to run at 100 mph

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by martin.knoepfel

The Foster Yeoman stone-trains were able to run at 100 mph

[:)] Every weekday, the *rock train* rumbles through my town with about 100 cars of big, pink rocks at about 10 mph.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by martin.knoepfel

The Foster Yeoman stone-trains were able to run at 100 mph

No they don't. The GM class 59 locomotives aren't geared for that kind of speed. Further more they have nowhere near the power to move a heavy stone train that fast. They are only geared for 75 mph. With the long wheelbase hoppers and a standard weight train they can run at 45 mph. loaded and 60 mph. empty. Braking is what sets the train speed. Without special brakes you can not stop a train that heavy in standard signalling overlaps.

[owlsroost]

The original Foster Yeoman/Hanson class 59's are geared for 60 mph top speed, the later National Power (now EWS) version is geared for 75 mph - according to my stock book.

The only 'freight' we run at more than 75 mph is mail and parcels, but that uses passenger-type equipment to run up to 100 mph (and only a very small amount of that traffic still moves by train).

Even if you provided enough power and braking to run 100 mph heavy freight, the costs of fuel, maintenance and (particularly) the track damage from 25 tonne axle loads would make it a very expensive proposition.

As far as I know the hopper doors are operated automatically during unloading - the long hand lever on the 2-axle wagon operates the handbrake.

Tony

[Anonymous]

i work as a conductor on the mbta south side commuter rail ops. we were formerly employees of amtrak but the contract was let out in the summer of 2003 w/the contract going to a consortium of connex bombardier and a consulting group run by a former gm at the mbta....the irony of this is that connex had their franchise to operate in britain a week before they got the contract here. they (connex) are a for profit company and are not maintaing the fleet here up to snuff. politics i guess. the situation in britain was such were br was busted up and different groups were asset stripping br components.the result being br service has suffered badly. passenger trains dont make money never had never will. the companies who are running these ops are concerned w/their bottom line. they have no business running these entities.

[Anonymous]

I will go allong with the 75 MPH top speed for coal trains, esspecially as thats the top speed of the HHA's (?) that form many of the long haul Anglo Scottish coal trains, although the 2 axle wagons do seem to be getting more use and it's not often you see a coal train with fewer than 21 4 axle wagons any more. Also on the West Coast Main Line, class 92 electric engines have recently been tried on coal trains so 75 mph means 75 mph. As for the 2 axle wagons they have been resprung so as to do 60mph loaded or empty.

[Tulyar15]

Some coal traffic is moved in containers - to make it easier to send it on to places that aren't rail served.

At the present I gather most of the container ports in Britain are working to full capacity. The government rejected a proposal for a second container port at Southampton but is considering a proposal for a new container port on the Thames Estuary in Essex. Other possibilities include new terminals near Glasgow or Liverpool.

As a result of Ireland also being in the EU a lot of trade between Ireland and Europe passes thru Britain. I gather Holyhead, the main ferryport for Ireland is now the second busiest port in Britain though container trains no longer run there and all the freight passing thru Holyhead goes by road - only the aluminium plant there generates any rail freight.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: the situation in britain was such were br was busted up and different groups were asset stripping br components.the result being br service has suffered badly.

Chuck,

The franchisees (passenger train operating companies) in the UK can't asset strip - they don't own any of the assets - the trains, stations and depots are leased to them, the track and signalling is owned and operated by a state owned company.

Generally train services have improved (sometimes considerably) since privatisation - the big problem is that it's costing the taxpayer a lot more in subsidies.

Connex was one of the worst franchisees, which eventually resulted in it being stripped of the South Eastern franchise - so you have my sympathy.

Tony

[owlsroost]

Hugh Jampton/Townsend,

Out of interest, as we don't get any coal trains anywhere near my area (East Anglia), what's the proportion of trains formed from 2-axle and 4-axle wagons in your areas ?

Last time I was in the Doncaster/Barnetby/Knottingley area, from memory it was almost all EWS and Freightliner 4-axle hoppers (in the rain....)

Tony

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

Some coal traffic is moved in containers - to make it easier to send it on to places that aren't rail served.

At the present I gather most of the container ports in Britain are working to full capacity. The government rejected a proposal for a second container port at Southampton but is considering a proposal for a new container port on the Thames Estuary in Essex. Other possibilities include new terminals near Glasgow or Liverpool.

As a result of Ireland also being in the EU a lot of trade between Ireland and Europe passes thru Britain. I gather Holyhead, the main ferryport for Ireland is now the second busiest port in Britain though container trains no longer run there and all the freight passing thru Holyhead goes by road - only the aluminium plant there generates any rail freight.

Wouldn't it be easier to send goods from Ireland to the continent by ship, and skip Britain alltogether?

Thanks

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Wouldn't it be easier to send goods from Ireland to the continent by ship, and skip Britain alltogether?

The shipper puts it on a truck in (for example) Italy, and it's driven across Italy, France, (ferry or chunnel), Britain, (ferry), Ireland to the customer. No trans-shipment time or costs (which you'd have to do twice by ship), and trucks travel faster than ships.

There are direct ferries from France (and maybe Spain) to Ireland, but it may well be cheaper/faster to do two short/fast crossings and drive across Britain than take a longer, more expensive direct sea crossing.

Some of this traffic could easily be won by rail (at least as far as Holyhead/Liverpool) if only the European railways (especially France) would get their collective acts together and allow pan-european open-access to work properly (which is exactly how the trucking companies work).

Tony

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by owlsroost

Hugh Jampton/Townsend,

Out of interest, as we don't get any coal trains anywhere near my area (East Anglia), what's the proportion of trains formed from 2-axle and 4-axle wagons in your areas ?

Last time I was in the Doncaster/Barnetby/Knottingley area, from memory it was almost all EWS and Freightliner 4-axle hoppers (in the rain....)

Tony

I live in Doncaster but work in Leeds for Network Rail and sometimes have to go to Scotland. In the Doncaster area coal trains were nearly all 4 axle trains upto early this year or so. Now i frequently see trains coming from Sheffield and the south heading to the Humber formed of 2 axle wagons. From my office in Leeds i can see the west end of Leeds station and Whithall curve which a lot of Anglo Scottish coal trains use are all 4 axle wagon trains. I recently passed Hunterstone High Level coal terminal in Scotland which had one coal train ready to depart, one loading and one empty ready to load and they were all 2 axle coal trains. They may have been heading for Longanet or Cockenzie power stations in Scotland, so would not have been going that far.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by owlsroost

QUOTE: Wouldn't it be easier to send goods from Ireland to the continent by ship, and skip Britain alltogether?

The shipper puts it on a truck in (for example) Italy, and it's driven across Italy, France, (ferry or chunnel), Britain, (ferry), Ireland to the customer. No trans-shipment time or costs (which you'd have to do twice by ship), and trucks travel faster than ships.

There are direct ferries from France (and maybe Spain) to Ireland, but it may well be cheaper/faster to do two short/fast crossings and drive across Britain than take a longer, more expensive direct sea crossing.

Some of this traffic could easily be won by rail (at least as far as Holyhead/Liverpool) if only the European railways (especially France) would get their collective acts together and allow pan-european open-access to work properly (which is exactly how the trucking companies work).

Tony

Are there any train ferries from Britain to Belgium? It would seem possible to skip France completely?

Thanks

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Are there any train ferries from Britain to Belgium?

No - there aren't any train ferries at all to/from the UK.

Townsend - thanks for the info, sounds like EWS is concentrating the 4-axle wagons on the Anglo-Scottish routes.

Tony

[Tulyar15]

Going back to MurphySiding's question about unloading, some of the iron ore wagons used in South Wales are tipped bodily (one at a time) to unload them. They have special coupling which allow this to happen.

When Ed Burkhardt arrived here I think what impressed him most were the stone hopper wagons which have a conveyor belt running under them. At the rear of the set is a car with a directable conveyor which can be directed to unload into a waiting truck. This avoids the need for investment in hopper discharge facilities.

[Anonymous]

There were originally multiple train ferry operations - Dover to Dunkirk for one. All closed when the tunnel opened, and the Dover rail link is now long gone. Dunkirk still has rail access though it's now used for the container port (which is visible from the old train ferry berth). There'd be no need to run the ferry to Belgium as Dunkirk is literally on the border - would only take an hour or so at most to get across and into Belgium. I'm pretty sure I saw a photo in a magazine of a rail linkspan in Harwich, or somewhere on the east coast - not sure where the ferries ran to though.

Regarding the Ireland-France routes, there is one that runs from Cork to Roscoff. It's a long crossing and the ferry company charges some outrageous prices - I would suspect that even with our fuel prices it would be cheaper to travel to the UK, drive down to Dover, and then use one of the ferries that departs from there, or even better to put the load on a train in Fishguard and send it through the tunnel.

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

When Ed Burkhardt arrived here I think what impressed him most were the stone hopper wagons which have a conveyor belt running under them. At the rear of the set is a car with a directable conveyor which can be directed to unload into a waiting truck. This avoids the need for investment in hopper discharge facilities.

The Self Discharge Train is quite a piece of kit.
Pics and vids at;
http://www.lafargerail.com/3d-animation.html


btw; I'm on semi-permanent- temporary assignment in London, and I now only see mainly stone trains,, 2/3rds of which are 4 axle, the rest 2 axle, but never mixed together.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: some of the iron ore wagons used in South Wales

Llanwern steelworks is now closed - the only remaining iron ore trains are Immingham - S***horpe (the equipment/unloading method is the same).

Roger Ford's description (some years ago in 'Modern Railways' mag) of a cab ride on a Port Talbot - Llanwern ore train hauled by a pair of class 37's is one of my favourite reads when I'm feeling nostalgic [:)].

Tony

(BTW the asterisk's in S***horpe are this forum's automatic censorship at work - the place name is "S c u n t h o r p e" - spaced out to fool the software)

[Hugh Jampton]

S***horpe is a mingin place,, reminds me of Pittsburg or Buffalo in the early 70's..

[Murphy Siding]

? What's a *mingin* ?

Thanks