British Railway Operations

[Hugh Jampton]

It's not always about time. Cost is the big factor. When designing the route the designers look at the cost of the bridge vs the cost of building an extra 20-30 miles of railway. Whichever is cheaper gets the job.

there was an Open University program on the Tay Bridge disaster. It was very interesting. The crux of it ISTR was that the bridge designers had used integral lugs cast with the columns. As it turns out cast iron is not very good in tension, and the designers of the time never accounted for the dynamic loading from the trains and the wind which caused tensile loads on the lugs (the struts were fine as they were wrought iron which is OK in tension). The lugs suffered fatigue failures and the whole mess came down. Sadly, when Engineers get it wrong people end up dead.

[Overmod]

Tay Bridge disaster:

IIRC at least some of the failure was due to the shockingly bad quality of the castings themselves -- google on "Beaumont Egg" for some of the awful details, and if memory serves there was a problem with sulfur as well. Where I thought Bouch had the problem was (not having seen the Open University program) in grossly undercalculating the effect of wind load on the lattice 'high girders' -- seems to me that both the fact of tension and the lever arm of the high (and not-well-laterally-braced) lattices led to the failure. Exactly what were the moments due to the train's passage (according to the program's analysis) that actually induced the 'discontinuities' in the cast-iron leading to failure? (I would suspect it was general vibration with crystallization/stress raisers at some of the ... er, voids ... covered up by the casting firm...

It is NOT just the "engineer" who 'got it wrong' in this case, although it is definitely possible that the high girders would have fallen at some time even if the castings were perfect. One has to feel sorry for poor Thomas Bouch, who died a broken man within just a few months of the disaster...

[Anonymous]

With respect to the Tay Bridge that is sort of my patch as i work in network rail train planning and Scotland is my area. The average time for an Edinburgh Aberdeen service is 2'40'' with Dundee near as spit halfway. If you went Dundee - Perth - Ladybank you would probably add 30 min to the journey if not more and Ladybank Perth is a LONG single track section that would kill capacety (?). I dont know what the time would be Edinburgh - Stirling - Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen, but i would not be suprised if it came out at 3'30'' or more and that would mean the car would just slaughter the railway. The private car was not on the scene when the Forth and Tay bridges were built, but tourist passenger traffic to the Highlands was a lucrative market to be in. The Caledonian Railway conected with the LNWR at Carlisle and could run via Motherwell - Mossend - Stirling - Perth - Montrose - Aberdeen. The North British Railway connected with the NER at Berwick and before the opening of the bridges the route was Edinburgh - South Queensferry, boat to North Queensferry, train across Fife, boat across the Firth of Tay, train Dundee - Aberdeen.

[Murphy Siding]

Townsend: Was the rail-through connection there before the bridge was built, or was the bridge built as part of the original line?
Thanks

[Tulyar15]

I think the lines were already there before the bridge was built. Thomas Bouch also built the first roll on roll off ferry so that the trains could run straight on to the ferry and off again on the other side, to minimise transit time.

Some of the girders from the original Tay Bridge were re-used on the replacement bridge. I think Bouch was let down by several factors:-

a) under estimating maximum wind speeds
b) some of the materials being sub-standard
c) after it opened Bouch recommended trains should observe a 20mph speed limit over the bridge. But before it fell down there were regular reports of trains exceeding 60mph on the bridge and odd nuts and bolts coming loose without anyone getting very worried!

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed


For UK viewers - we'll be doing some work on the ALCo S1 at Peterborough on Feb 25th, Mar 11th and Apr 1st. We're also making these days a "meet the loco" event so you can have a look at what we have to do, talk to us about what we're going to do and ideally join the UK ALCo Group.

Fun begins at 12.00 on Feb 25th, and 10.00 on the other two days. Bring your own tools!

Simon,

Can I ask what colour you intend repainting the ALCO?

I can recall seeing them during the 15 months between July, 1969, and September, 1970, that I spent at BSC Port Talbot (in my "Sandwich Year" out of University), at that time they were in British Steel Corporation's blue house colour.

The pre 1967 nationalisation Steel Company of Wales, on the other hand, painted locos in a dark red not unlike EWS's present red, with the usual wasp markings to aid visibility.

Any clues??

Martin

[Simon Reed]

The ALCo will probably go into BSC blue, although there's the possibility of it carrying a sponsor's livery during restoration.

The original red was applied by Schenectady prior to delivery. We're pretty certain it's actually Lehigh Valley red; this is'nt as daft as it sounds as Lehigh Valley received a "one-off" S1 in 1949.

[Anonymous]

The rail-boat-rail-boat-rail link was started in the late 1840's. The lines in Fife were used as a trunk line even before the bridges were built, however it was still built up peicemeal. Several of the main intermediate stations all seem to be at the bottom of steep grades or on a sharp grade. The section from Camelon near Falkirk to Perth was joint and the North British could hand over through carridges from the south to the Highland for Inverness and the Caledonian for Aberdeen at Perth.

[Murphy Siding]

Townsend: I guess this part that isn't clear to me. At the time the Tay Bridge was proposed,why was the expence of building a major bridge seen as a better investment than putting that same money into a well built line *around* the water? Was the deciding factor simply to cut running time? Or was the terrain *around* the water too formidable, that a bridge was the better option? Thanks

[Simon Reed]

I can probably answer that one for Townsend, and the simple answer is competition.

In the age of railway mania, money and engineering feats were secondary considerations to expedience. If you could move your commodity from, in this instance, Dundee to all points South faster than your potential competitors then the investment in a bridge was entirely justified.

This holds true in most of the Western World. Think, for instance, of the astonishing engineering feats attained in getting competing railroads to the West Coast of the USA.

To revert to the unfortunate Thomas Bouch, it's worth remembering that he was also the engineer on the NER's Stainmore road. This route carried extremely heavy traffic - coking coal from the Durham Coalfields to the iron and steel works in North Lancashire and Cumberland, and included the massive Belah Viaduct.

When the route was closed and dismantled in the 1960's the demolition of Bouch's Belah Viaduct was beyond any of the demolition contractors of the day because it was so substantial and remote, so eventually the Army were called in to remove it.

He redeemed himself with that one, I'd say.

[Overmod]

Hate to say this, but he didn't 'redeem' himself; Belah was near the start, not the end, of his career IIRC. (Thank heaven we still have Podgill!)

I do agree that most of his work is good... but I can't help breathing a sigh of great relief, having seen his drawings for the proposed Forth bridge (for which the contract had actually been let!) that his version wasn't built...

[Anonymous]

Simon Reed is quite right, the Tay bridge was built by the North British Railway of Edinburgh, and the Forth Bridge was built by the Forth Bridge Company. The shares of which were split 30% NBR, 32.5% Midland, 18.75% each for the GNR and NER. The Midland, GNR and NER being the NBR's conection into England. The inland route via Falkirk, Camelon, Perth was owned by the Caledonian Railway of Glasgow, and to say the North British and Caley disliked each other is an understatement. Before the Great War rather than acept the competition had a beter route, the Caley ran services from Princess Street station in Edinburgh via Perth to Aberdeen. While the NBR ran an Aberdeen - Glasgow services with the through Aberdeen Glasgow coaches coming of the main Aberdeen Edinburgh express at Dalmeny Jnt just south of Inverkeithing.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Simon,

Can I ask what colour you intend repainting the ALCO?

I can recall seeing them during the 15 months between July, 1969, and September, 1970, that I spent at BSC Port Talbot (in my "Sandwich Year" out of University), at that time they were in British Steel Corporation's blue house colour.

The pre 1967 nationalisation Steel Company of Wales, on the other hand, painted locos in a dark red not unlike EWS's present red, with the usual wasp markings to aid visibility.

Any clues??

Martin

Martin,

Do you have any photos from your time at Port Talbot? We have B&W pics of 804 as delivered at Schenectady in US RR pre modified condition. I always wandered when they were painted BSC Blue. I have a pic of oneof the BSC S1's in blue in 1965 (if the caption is right) but I've never seen a pic of them with wasp stripes in red either.

If you have ANY info on the Port Talbot S1's that would help us, please pass it on to Simon. We'd love to meet you on one of the meeting days if you can make it.

Cheers
Michael Ratledge
Co-founder and Chairman
UK ALCo Group

[Murphy Siding]

What possessed you guys to pick an ALCo as a preservation project?

[malcolmyoung]

What possessed you guys to pick an ALCo as a preservation project?

In the UK there is no other choice if you want to preserve an American diesel loco.
All the rest are EMDs and are all still in service (I think there is an ex Ford Motor Company GEC loco somewhere, maybe on the Kent & East Sussex Railway??)Three of the five original Alco S1s from Port Talbot stil exist, 801, 803 & 804. I am involved with the group that owns 803 (serial Number 77777, Feb 1950) This loco is at Wallingford on the Cholsey and Wallingford Railway in Oxfordshire and is not at present in operatig condition, although some work has been done which was largely undone by vandals unfortunately. I had replaced all the cab windows with laminated safety glass but they managed to break these too.
Malc.

[Anonymous]

I would also like to know how this ALCO ended up in Wales? Why didn't British Steel Corp buy English Electric? What were they used for? I think i can understand why you want to save it as i've heard ALCO's on videos and they sound great. Not that enviromentaly friendly but a top sound.

[malcolmyoung]

Quote:
I would also like to know how this ALCO ended up in Wales? Why didn't British Steel Corp buy English Electric? What were they used for? I think i can understand why you want to save it as i've heard ALCO's on videos and they sound great. Not that enviromentaly friendly but a top sound.

The Steel Company Of Wales (SCOW) built a large integrated steelworks at Port Talbot in South Wales and wanted powerful diesel locos to move the very heavy hot metal trains from the blast furnaces to the steel making plant. At that time, the late 1940s- early 1950s, there was nobody in the UK building diesel locos above two or three hundred horsepower for industrial use, in fact the majority of industrial loco builders were still building steam locos. Alco was in a position to supply off the shelf S1s at short notice so SCOW ordered five. They were very highly thought of by both the managent and the crews who operated them. When we went to Port Talbot to look at 803 before buying it, the works transport manager told us that they were the best locos that they ever had and was sorry to see them go.
Malc.

[Murphy Siding]

malcolmyoung: What did SCOW replace the ALOC's with? Am I to read that the S1 was still in service when it was purchased? Thanks

[Tulyar15]

Slightly off topic, but they also have some old (1949 I think) AL:CO's in Portugal which I've seen on a number of visits to that country. But I think they were re-engined in the 1970's with Caterpillar engines.

I think they still have US built diesel locos of some sort at MArgam steel works. Because they're out of the gauge for the UK National network the tracks are more widely spaced in the exchange sidings than is usually as these locos run into the exchange sidings where EWS locos take over.

[malcolmyoung]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

malcolmyoung: What did SCOW replace the ALOC's with? Am I to read that the S1 was still in service when it was purchased? Thanks

The Alcos were in service for over 30 years with SCOW and had reached a stage where it was uneconomical to keep on spending money on them to keep them going. I think they were replaced with locos built by Brush Electrical Engineering at Loughborough, but I don't know any details about them. When we went to look at 803 it had been out of service 3 or 4 years and was in a shed with 801. By this time 804 was already at Peterborough and 802 and 805 had been either scrapped or broken for parts to keep the others going. 803 was minus its side buffers and about half the battery cells when we bought it but was otherwise complete. We also got a load of spares with it and all the original Alco drawings and drawings of modifications done by SCOW, for example, they modified the cooling system by fitting a by-pass pipe with a thermostat in it to circulate the coolant only round the engine until it was up to operating temperature.
Malc.

[Simon Reed]

Malcolm - in view of our plans for 804 we could do with getting in touch.

I know Rug has already spoken to some of you but a more formal meeting would be a good idea. Basically - we know the lads who tried to buy 801 a few years ago, they're now in with us. There are three left of which 803 and 804 stand the best chance of running again at the moment and I'm determined to make it happen!

E-mail me and we'll see if we can set something up.

[jchnhtfd]

Murph suggested I ask this on this thread, even though it's maybe a little off topic. It's about the Waverley line, between Galashiels and Carlisle.

While driving along the B6399 about 7 - 8 miles south of Hawick, right at the top end of Liddesdale (don't even ask what a Yankee is doing on the B6399... except that it has something to do with Hermitage Castle!) I saw there was some track being installed, and some rolling stock hanging around. Does anyone know anything about this? Looked like it might be a railway historical group, or tourist operation?

[Simon Reed]

JCHNHTFD (what a lovely name!) - I've replied on your original thread, but you might want to have a look at:-

http://www.wrha.org.uk/

I think there's been a bit of in-fighting up there recently so I'm not sure about the current state of play.

[Anonymous]

The Waverley Route - echoes of the Great Sir Walter Scott. Another bit of railway being rebuilt.

Kudos to the Scots - now they have devolution they aint hanging about rebuilding bits of track.

[jchnhtfd]

Just a bit to add on the Tay Bridge. One must remember that the state of art in civil engineering wasn't quite what it is today (and we still make mistakes...). The level of wind forces simply wasn't understood at all; not the engineer's fault, really. Although it is quite likely that there were also metal defects -- one must remember that they were pretty common too in those days!

[Anonymous]

I think the inspecting officer of the Board of Trade also had reservations regarding the wind speed.

Incidentally, I would like to recommend to anyone interested in the workings of the HMRI until it was thoroughly rogered by the HSE to purchase "Red for Danger" by the Late, Great Tom Rolt.

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

JCHNHTFD (what a lovely name!) - I've replied on your original thread, but you might want to have a look at:-

http://www.wrha.org.uk/

I think there's been a bit of in-fighting up there recently so I'm not sure about the current state of play.

Got it in one, Simon, Thank you! It was Riccarton Junction. That whole line has some amazing bits on it. Also some fantastic scenery -- as well as Hermitage Castle (one of the loneliest Historic Scotland folks I've yet to meet... he was so glad to see us!). That road is a nice ride, if not a place to speed.

Can't think why I haven't been frequenting this thread... I'm a d___ed Yankee, but with close ties to Scotland (ancestry, and my daughter lives in Edinburgh -- one of my favourite cities anywhere in the world).

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

Incidentally, I would like to recommend to anyone interested in the workings of the HMRI until it was thoroughly rogered by the HSE to purchase "Red for Danger" by the Late, Great Tom Rolt.

I'd agree 110% - one of the great UK railway writers, and a superb, very readable account of how UK railway safety has evolved as a result of accidents and the subsequent investigations into the causes. I still re-read my dog-eared, 30 year old paperback copy occasionally - it's that good [:)]

Unfortunately I think it's out of print now [:(]

Tony

[Murphy Siding]

What's become of abandonded rail lines in Britain? I have the impression that the Beeching era probably eliminated a lot of *excess* rail lines? Are abandonded right of ways common? Is it common for lines be abandoned now? Thanks

[Tulyar15]

Genrally British Rail sold off closed lines as quickly as possible, often piecemeal, with the result that it is often difficult to re-build them. Still that hasn't detered some people - The Corris Railway society in Wales are re-building a line that closed in 1948, while the Lynton & Barnstaple society in SW England are re-building a line that closed in 1935!

More recently, Network Rail has tended to leave track in place and make it easier for anyone who wants to take over a line to do so.

In some cases local authorities have sensibly bought up abandoned lines to make it easier for them to be re-opened. A lot of abandoned lines were sold in the 1990's to a group called Sustrans who have turned them into cycleways. They have crossed swords with a number of groups who want to see the lines in question re-opened as Sustrans seem to think that cycleways and railways cant live together, when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. The preserved Avon Valley line near Bristol, which I am a volunteer worker on, shares its right of way with a cycle way and we find it a good source of revenue. We get so much revenue from walkers and cyclist that we open our shop and cafe 364 days a year.