Grossly Dishonoring the American Flag

[Anonymous]

I think ot is more indicative of the likelihood that many of us thought this thread had gone as far as it could within the confines of the original context, so we have diversified the subject matter?

Works for me anyway

[tree68]

Everybody has their hot button...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

I don't like cigarettes because it's too expensive for just smoke to inhale. If I stick my head in a chimmney burning cedar, the aroma is better and it is alot cheaper.

Heh heh, THAT is one of the funniest posts I've seen in a long time.

Be careful that you don't get your ears pinched in the flue damper. [;)]

[chad thomas]

The donkey jokes had me rolling...thanks guys.

Where do we go from here....Someone mention alcohol....Let me crack open a 40 and think about it.......Gimme a smoke Dan, can't drink without smoking........Now what will it be? religion or politics...........How about deeply held religious beliefs about forum politics?.........or what paint scheme will look best on those new Amtrak defense missle equiped locos... I would go with Martian red.......anybody got a light?

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

I don't like cigarettes because it's too expensive for just smoke to inhale. If I stick my head in a chimmney burning cedar, the aroma is better and it is alot cheaper.

Yea but the buzz just isn't the same and you end up spending too much money on Visine.

[Anonymous]

I have seen similar threads on a number of different forums and email list about dirty US Flags on Union Pacific locomotives in the past couple of years. But, rarely have I ever seen anyone question if the practice is proper placing our flag on a trademarked livery. I think this is the question. As I understand the flag code, the flag should never be used for any advertising purpose, seems to me that a trademarked livery applied to a locomotive is a form of advertising, it is establishing a brand. Anyway, just my thoughts.

Jim

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033

I have seen similar threads on a number of different forums and email list about dirty US Flags on Union Pacific locomotives in the past couple of years. But, rarely have I ever seen anyone question if the practice is proper placing our flag on a trademarked livery. I think this is the question. As I understand the flag code, the flag should never be used for any advertising purpose, seems to me that a trademarked livery applied to a locomotive is a form of advertising, it is establishing a brand. Anyway, just my thoughts.

Jim

While on the surface that argument has some merit, it does become necessary to question the flying of the flag in front of a business, or the wearing of the flag on a uniform other than public servants. The many patriotic color schemes of the bicentennial era, while not flags, still enter into the discussion. Let's face it - every red blooded American business (and some not so much so) wants its customers to consider it a patriotic endeavor.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

CSX

...not trying to preach to you, just explaining what happened in my family. I admit I have a very biased view towards cigarettes and smoking, but given the family history, maybe you can understand why I have this bias.

you said the key words right thier...FAMILY HISTORY..... your family may have a genitic pre-dispostion to be affected by lung canser as a result of smokeing... becouse if eveyone that did it got it that would be one thing..but you cant explain the large varence in ages of smokers and years of smokeing and the cases of death due to lung cancer.... not to go off track to much agin..but its not just in the area of the lungs... look at the people you knew or read about..the guy that was 45 years old..worked out all the time.... ran... keep in shape...had a good diet... and droped over dead at 45 from a massive heart attact...... and then you find hear that someone was a fat slob... ate fast food everyday..and had enought colestroal in his blood system to bring down a bull rino..but lives to a ripe old age of 90 or so... bleaming ones livestyel choices or trying to controll ones lifestyel choices becouse it "might be bad for me" isnt the right thing to do... regardless of what you do to your body..and how you life your life..when it IS YOUR TIME...IT IS YOUR TIME...regardless!!!!!
csx engineer

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NJMike

HOW THE HELL DOES AN AMERICAN FLAG TOPIC GO TO A SMOKING TOPIC? Thats really sad.

how is that sad? becouse some of us want to have side discutions in this tread?
csx engineer

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by NJMike

HOW THE HELL DOES AN AMERICAN FLAG TOPIC GO TO A SMOKING TOPIC? Thats really sad.

I think it was concern for the "flag burning" imagery that would result when UP' s flag festooned EMD's started going up in smoke?[}:)][}:)][8][8][}:)][}:)]

Flag Decals? .... Burning?

I dont recall ever seeing flag decals on any CSX units?

they are on the cabs..normaly round the around the side window ..
csx engineer

[chad thomas]

Thanks CSX, I was afraid this thread was getting back on topic.[:D]

And I drink,smoke and live on fast food. Mabee I'll live to be 90.[:O]

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by NJMike

HOW THE HELL DOES AN AMERICAN FLAG TOPIC GO TO A SMOKING TOPIC? Thats really sad.

I think it was concern for the "flag burning" imagery that would result when UP' s flag festooned EMD's started going up in smoke?[}:)][}:)][8][8][}:)][}:)]

Flag Decals? .... Burning?

I dont recall ever seeing flag decals on any CSX units?

they are on the cabs..normaly round the around the side window ..
csx engineer

I'll take your work for it and keep an eye out for them...No offense ment, but but given the condition of the loaner CSX lokies I see roaming out here,CSX must lease out there lousiest engines, if I ever do see a flag burning on a lokie, it will be one of these...sheeesh, its like SP lives again[:0]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033

I have seen similar threads on a number of different forums and email list about dirty US Flags on Union Pacific locomotives in the past couple of years. But, rarely have I ever seen anyone question if the practice is proper placing our flag on a trademarked livery. I think this is the question. As I understand the flag code, the flag should never be used for any advertising purpose, seems to me that a trademarked livery applied to a locomotive is a form of advertising, it is establishing a brand. Anyway, just my thoughts.

Jim

Not to repeat myself, but I have gone over this before. Who is going to see it other than rail fans and people stopped at railroad crossing. How will it affect someone's decision? How many companies also use the flag in advertisement? Don't tell me this is irrelevant UP is doing a lot less advertising with their flag than many other companies. UP did do design work on the flag to make it look like it is waving, this version of a thing that is not legally a US flag can be trademarked, not the flag itself. Flag protocol has nothing to do with this I too would complain about it if it were a real flag. It is a decal!
THE UNION PACIFIC RAILROAD IS TRYING TO BE PATRIOTIC!!! We should be bashing CSX for not having a bigger flag!!

Can somebody please find me a picture of a dirty flag decal I have never seen one.
James[C):-)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: While on the surface that argument has some merit, it does become necessary to question the flying of the flag in front of a business, or the wearing of the flag on a uniform other than public servants.

I think there is a difference between a trademarked livery on a locomotive and a flag pole in front of a building. If I take a photograph of that Union Pacific locomotive with the flag applied to its trademarked livery and print it in a calendar, I must pay Union Pacific a fee for its use in the calendar. Now if I take a photo of their office building with the flag in front, no such fee needs to be paid to Union Pacific, because the building isn't covered in a trademarked livery.

As far as wearing a flag on a uniform its covered too, but it seems, its not enforced:

"The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations."

Anyway, just more of my thoughts on this...

Jim

[Anonymous]

James wrote:

QUOTE: How many companies also use the flag in advertisement?

And they may well be wrong too, but we are not addressing this, we are examining the issue of a large American flag used in conjuction with a trademarked livery on a locomotive.

There are many ways that a corparation can display its patriotism. During the 1st Gulf War, Union Pacific had a couple of units painted in what some called the Gulf War Livery, that works. How about some locos painted for the VFW, Marines, Army, Navy or Air Force.

Again, just my thoughts

Jim

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033

QUOTE: While on the surface that argument has some merit, it does become necessary to question the flying of the flag in front of a business, or the wearing of the flag on a uniform other than public servants.

I think there is a difference between a trademarked livery on a locomotive and a flag pole in front of a building. If I take a photograph of that Union Pacific locomotive with the flag applied to its trademarked livery and print it in a calendar, I must pay Union Pacific a fee for its use in the calendar. Now if I take a photo of their office building with the flag in front, no such fee needs to be paid to Union Pacific, because the building isn't covered in a trademarked livery.

As far as wearing a flag on a uniform its covered too, but it seems, its not enforced:

"The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations."

Anyway, just more of my thoughts on this...

Jim

You can not use a real flag. A flag printed on a shirt is alright. Same as the loco's decal.
James[C):-)]

[Anonymous]

Well James read this, of course it only applies to the District of Columbia...

TITLE 4--FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES

CHAPTER 1--THE FLAG

Sec. 3. Use of flag for advertising purposes; mutilation of flag

Any person who, within the District of Columbia, in any manner, for
exhibition or display, shall place or cause to be placed any word,
figure, mark, picture, design, drawing, or any advertisement of any
nature upon any flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States
of America; or shall expose or cause to be exposed to public view any
such flag, standard, colors, or ensign upon which shall have been
printed, painted, or otherwise placed, or to which shall be attached,
appended, affixed, or annexed any word, figure, mark, picture, design,
or drawing, or any advertisement of any nature; or who, within the
District of Columbia, shall manufacture, sell, expose for sale, or to
public view, or give away or have in possession for sale, or to be given
away or for use for any purpose, any article or substance being an
article of merchandise, or a receptacle for merchandise or article or
thing for carrying or transporting merchandise, upon which shall have
been printed, painted, attached, or otherwise placed a representation of
any such flag, standard, colors, or ensign, to advertise, call attention
to, decorate, mark, or distingui***he article or substance on which so
placed shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by
a fine not exceeding $100 or by imprisonment for not more than thirty
days, or both, in the discretion of the court. The words ``flag,
standard, colors, or ensign'', as used herein, shall include any flag,
standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or
of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on
any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said
flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a
picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the
colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or
of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the
same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag,
colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America.

(July 30, 1947, ch. 389, 61 Stat. 642; Pub. L. 90-381, Sec. 3, July 5,
1968, 82 Stat. 291.)

[espeefoamer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

WOW!!!!

We've gone from flag decals to taxes, to canadians, back to bashing the french, sex changes and smoking ...................all in eight pages..............is this a great country or WHAT!!!!!!


we still need a donkey, a dwarf, and a firetruck...................WOW!

WHAT? maybe you would prefer a religious debate?

3 things that are sure to start a bar fight
discussing
religion
politics
and how to raise kids
csx engineer

Anything to use a broken whiskey bottle.

I'm sure the use of whiskey has been involved in causing quite a few kids...who have to be raised,causing more barfights[}:)]!

[UPTRAIN]

I look at it from the perspective of a former road foreman of engines for the Mo-Pac and UP, he was also on the 38th parallel...he is greatly embarrassed by how his former employer for letting them get so dirty. I have actually seen a conductor find some wet paper by the tracks while waiting for a signal before they back up into the yard here in town, pick it up and rub the decals in a attempt to get some of grime off of it. If UP's gonna use it, it would be more patriotic to clean it off...GO UP!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033

I have seen similar threads on a number of different forums and email list about dirty US Flags on Union Pacific locomotives in the past couple of years. But, rarely have I ever seen anyone question if the practice is proper placing our flag on a trademarked livery. I think this is the question. As I understand the flag code, the flag should never be used for any advertising purpose, seems to me that a trademarked livery applied to a locomotive is a form of advertising, it is establishing a brand. Anyway, just my thoughts.

Jim

I think you have *it* right... The flag code seems to be specifically written with intent to prohibit the use made by UP.

The fact that the gov't has been negligent in enforcing this law, by no means makes UP's practice "lawful"...Just because UP is getting away with it, doen't mean what they are doing is not "wrong" it just means they have been getting away with it. There is a fancy schmancy legalese term to describe this, that I can't remember right now, maybe one of the Lawyers can chime in?

[Junctionfan]

Too much reading; I need a drag of cedar.....[:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033

Well James read this, of course it only applies to the District of Columbia...

TITLE 4--FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES

CHAPTER 1--THE FLAG

Sec. 3. Use of flag for advertising purposes; mutilation of flag

Any person who, within the District of Columbia, in any manner, for
exhibition or display, shall place or cause to be placed any word,
figure, mark, picture, design, drawing, or any advertisement of any
nature upon any flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States
of America; or shall expose or cause to be exposed to public view any
such flag, standard, colors, or ensign upon which shall have been
printed, painted, or otherwise placed, or to which shall be attached,
appended, affixed, or annexed any word, figure, mark, picture, design,
or drawing, or any advertisement of any nature; or who, within the
District of Columbia, shall manufacture, sell, expose for sale, or to
public view, or give away or have in possession for sale, or to be given
away or for use for any purpose, any article or substance being an
article of merchandise, or a receptacle for merchandise or article or
thing for carrying or transporting merchandise, upon which shall have
been printed, painted, attached, or otherwise placed a representation of
any such flag, standard, colors, or ensign, to advertise, call attention
to, decorate, mark, or distingui***he article or substance on which so
placed shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by
a fine not exceeding $100 or by imprisonment for not more than thirty
days, or both, in the discretion of the court. The words ``flag,
standard, colors, or ensign'', as used herein, shall include any flag,
standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or
of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on
any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said
flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a
picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the
colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or
of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the
same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag,
colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America.

(July 30, 1947, ch. 389, 61 Stat. 642; Pub. L. 90-381, Sec. 3, July 5,
1968, 82 Stat. 291.)

Did I read that wrong or can you not fly a flag in DC???????? That would qualify as exhibition or display would it not?
James[C):-)]

[Anonymous]

I remember when the movie "Easy Rider" came out, the conservative right was outraged because the gas tank on Peter Fonda's chopper was painted like a flag,...they thought it was disrespectful...and it was even kept clean

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033

I have seen similar threads on a number of different forums and email list about dirty US Flags on Union Pacific locomotives in the past couple of years. But, rarely have I ever seen anyone question if the practice is proper placing our flag on a trademarked livery. I think this is the question. As I understand the flag code, the flag should never be used for any advertising purpose, seems to me that a trademarked livery applied to a locomotive is a form of advertising, it is establishing a brand. Anyway, just my thoughts.

Jim

I think you have *it* right... The flag code seems to be specifically written with intent to prohibit the use made by UP.

The fact that the gov't has been negligent in enforcing this law, by no means makes UP's practice "lawful"...Just because UP is getting away with it, doen't mean what they are doing is not "wrong" it just means they have been getting away with it. There is a fancy schmancy legalese term to describe this, that I can't remember right now, maybe one of the Lawyers can chime in?

Unless you're in DC, it ain't the law. Here in normal talk is how it works:
The US flag is public domain, no law prohibits it's use being painted on a loco, or used in a add. Gripe all you want UP has the right. Where does the law say you can't use the flag for advertising ( I still contest that UP is not). Look at political campaigns they use the flag in many forms for adds. If you could not use the flag however you want it would violate the 1'st amendment of the US constitution which that flag represents.
James[C):-)]

[AntonioFP45]

Wow!

What a thread.

Here in Florida (CSX territory) , I was so pleasantly surprised when I saw a pair of UP EMDs with the flag logos! Thumbs up!

If they happen to be dirty, so be it. In this day and age when so many "anti-American" college professors vomit their extremist political views on our college students, I enjoy seeing the old "Stars and Stripes" on railroad engines.

Thumbs up to the UP for willing to display the flag. And by the way, I am a modeler.

Roger that.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Wow!

What a thread.

Here in Florida (CSX territory) , I was so pleasantly surprised when I saw a pair of UP EMDs with the flag logos! Thumbs up!

If they happen to be dirty, so be it. In this day and age when so many "anti-American" college professors vomit their extremist political views on our college students, I enjoy seeing the old "Stars and Stripes" on railroad engines.

Thumbs up to the UP for willing to display the flag. And by the way, I am a modeler.

Roger that.

[#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto]
[:D][:D][:D]I wondered if I was the only one that thought that (I model too). [:D][:D][:D]
James[C):-)]

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

WOW!!!!

We've gone from flag decals to taxes, to canadians, back to bashing the french, sex changes and smoking ...................all in eight pages..............is this a great country or WHAT!!!!!!


we still need a donkey, a dwarf, and a firetruck...................WOW!

WHAT? maybe you would prefer a religious debate?

3 things that are sure to start a bar fight
discussing
religion
politics
and how to raise kids
csx engineer

Anything to use a broken whiskey bottle.

I'm sure the use of whiskey has been involved in causing quite a few kids...who have to be raised,causing more barfights[}:)]!

It's a vicious circle aint it [8D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

I remember when the movie "Easy Rider" came out, the conservative right was outraged because the gas tank on Peter Fonda's chopper was painted like a flag,...they thought it was disrespectful...and it was even kept clean

I wonder if the engineerson these flag adorned loco's call themselves "Captain America" like Peter Fonda did in the movie?

[Chris30]

QUOTE: By: TheAntiGates:
I wonder if the engineerson these flag adorned loco's call themselves "Captain America" like Peter Fonda did in the movie?

If every engineer in flag adorned locomotive called themselves "Captain America", it would be a little confusing. The radio chatter might sound like sound bites from the movie airplane. "What's you vector Victor." "Rodger, Rodger."

Oh, by the way, I checked google for images that contain a dwarf, a fire truck and a donkey. Sorry, no luck.

CC

[Anonymous]

MAN, just wait till this SD 70 ACE goes 'up in smoke" [}:)]