CANADIAN PASSENGER RAILROADS - Let's talk! BYOB ........

[daveklepper]

Look, I apologize if I seem crass. But obvioiusly the conductor could hold the train, but what good would it do? The train isn't cleaned at Central Station, but at coach yards. Once the train is moved by VIA people to Central Station where the Amtrak crew boards, and you can check me out on this, there is very little the Amtrak crew can do except to take the train out to Rouses Point or wherever the crew change point is.

But I can understand the coach cleaners' position too. Maybe the train came in with such a complete mess, that all they could do was get the water off the floor in the passenger seating area, never mind the restrooms! I'd be interested in what time of year this was. In New York, the train is supposed to be serviced at Sunnyside Yard. Suppose this was a day when there was some "event" on the Long Island railroad and especially in the East River tunnels and the inbound train with this same equipment before the one you rode never made it to Sunnyside but had to sit overnight in Penn Station and then go out the next morning! There are all kinds of things that can happen, and I do agree, because of more realistic funding in terms of its mission, that VIA passengers generally fair better than most Amtrak passengers, and pay more for the privilege.

I really happen to be a fan of Canada. When Israelis and Europeans ask which is my favorite "American" city, by which I know they mean USA City (another two hour discussion on that confusion!), I make that point and then go on to say my favorite USA City happens to be Toronto, except it happens to be in Canada. In other words, Toronto to me is closer to what the ideal USA city should be than any USA City. But I may have to backpedal on that now that Denver and Salt Lake City, two of my most favorite USA Cities, have expanding light rail systems. All three cities have decent orchestras and concert halls. Now if only Roanoke would get a light rail system! And there is a lot more to Toronto than the light rail system. There is the excellent Union Station and the number of trains calling there. There is the general civility and ability of many different ethnic groups to get along together. Food variety. Culture. A generally educated and civil population.

[Junctionfan]

I wonder if VIA has thought about an Autotrain on the Windsor Corridor?

[siberianmo]

QUOTE: The groundrules are pretty simple:

Share your thoughts about Canadian passenger railroading - past and present. Let's not bash one another because of differences in opinion and of course, nationalities. Above all - keep politics out of our discussions.

FOR NEWCOMERS: May I suggest that you browse the pages from start to finish? You may find something that will enhance what you are about to post, plus you'll find out "where we've been."

Ladies and Gentlemen, let's talk Canadian passenger trains!

=======================================================
Good Morning! Still perking along ..... so I'll get right to it ........[:D]

QUOTE: Junctionfan Posted: 30 March 2005, 09:33:05
I compare the government's treating of the passenger service to the kind of pride in your own home. If you take good care of your home and take pride in it, it will pay off and it will look good. It pays off because it increases the value and is pleasing to the eye.

Because Amtrak is lousy in comparison to VIA, I can't help think that there is a bunch of congressman and senators with uncut lawns, dishes all over the furniture, dirty floors and other eye sores. It sounds silly but that is what it is like; they don't show any pride in their belongings.

It helps thought that David Colonette ex transportation minister, was a railfan who prefered VIA.

Hmmmmmmm - perhaps you have something there. However, I think you are painting with too wide a brush. But I understand your analogy.[:D]

I really would rather avoid these Amtrak/VIA Rail comparisons - they wind up, well in two words, no where! Amtrak has had its share of leaders who were railfans too .... but the other hurdles in my country have simply been too much. Alas - it will soon be "RIP."

Thanx![tup][:)]

QUOTE: daveklepper Posted: Today, 14:41:16
On the Aderondak between Montreal and New York. Didn't you realize it was VIA's responsibility to clean up the mess on the train and send it out clean? Amtrak doesn't ahve the workers in Montreal, they belong to VIA!

Of course if things get tight, I can see why the coach cleaners would give priority to VIA;s own equipment over "foriegners". That's just natural.

Dave - I'm really surprised you wrote that! I've been a "fan" of your posts on this and other sites - but this one comes across a bit crass. A violation of our "groundrules" - perhaps they need to be revisted!

You know, when I travel aboard a train, the last thing on my mind is who has the
responsibillity for cleanliness and the like. I just expect it to be so. The conductor has the authority to hold the train until it is made ready.

Unclean trains, rest rooms without required supplies, diners and cafe cars with
insufficient provisions have been more the "norm" than not in the last couple of years of my travels with Amtrak - and those trains came no where near Montreal. (Wi***hey did!!)

See ya and hope the next time you're back to "normal."[tup][;)]

QUOTE: trolleyboy Posted: 30 March 2005, 15:51:40
Tom if you are wanting some other good reading I have a couple of suggestions.

Interesting that you mentioned the need for a new and comprehensive rail system mg-lev et all.There once was an influential Ontario Cabinet minister know us Sir adam Beck his dream was a comprehensive electric interurban system of travel. In his time over 30 systems were established. It's too bad his vision wasen't continued all those systems are now gone and we will need to rebuild them eventually when the gas does hit $5.00 a gallon.

If you can find it a good book on Sir Adam is Cataract Traction by Jihn Mills. It has been out of production for several years but I see copies popingup used here or there.I know the author as well he's one of our museums founding members. The book cronicles the beck lines The London and Port Stanely the Toronto Suberban. Hamilton and Brantford.the list goes on. It's well worth the read if you can get your hands on it.

The second is Traction on the Grand by the same author. They cover essentialy all of Ontario's interurban routes.You can check our museum's online gift shop listings normally we don't have the books but quite often we find older copies and resell them.

If you let our powers at be know your looking for them we can advise you if copies become available. Rob

Thanx Rob - at this point, "my required reading list" will take me into the next half of this decade for sure. What a "guarantee" for being around well into my 70's![tup][tup][:D]

QUOTE: athelney Posted: 30 Mar 2005, 20:22:35
RE the thought about dome car names - a good source of passenger car info is the Canadian Trackside Guide -put out by the good folks at the Bytown Railway Society in Ottawa - see previous reference about the Branchline magazine Section 4 lists all the VIA passenger cars & names as well as info about other railways in Canada - including timetables etc -- ( also includes Freight items as well ) Be warned!!!!

Now that's a book I really could get "into." Love those kinds of reference guides -thanx for the tip![tup][tup][:D] Freight is okay - but not on "our" tracks .......Appreciate the warning![tup][:D]

QUOTE: OnHarry Posted: 31 March 2005, 04:38:01
It is ironic that the Brantford and Hamilton right of way in Eagle Place in Brantford was built on what used to be the tow path for the canal built many years earlier by the Grand River Navigation Company, and of course is now a walking path. However even more ironic is that the 403 where it travels from Ancaster to West Hamilton used the same railway's right of way for it's own multi lane limited access highway.

Those tracks in Eagle Place were still there until abut 15 or so years ago, perhaps a bit longer back as with age the time periods seem to compress. Even though the railway was abandoned in the early thirties.

..... And I wonder if the people from those times who rode the rails were as concerned as we, when the railroad and right-of-way left the landscape? A sentiment shared over many generations is my guess.

Thanx![tup][:D]
=========================================
Now for my exit! See y'all soon .........

Tom in Chesterfield, MO, USA (Siberianmo)

[OnHarry]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trolleyboy

Tom if you are wanting some other good reading I have a couple of suggestions.Interesting that you mentioned the need for a new and comprehensive rail system mg-lev et all.There once was an influential Ontario Cabinet minister know us Sir adam Beck his dream was a comprehensive electric interurban system of travel. In his time over 30 systems were established. It's too bad his vision wasen't continued all those systems are now gone and we will need to rebuild them eventually when the gas does hit $5.00 a gallon. If you can find it a good book on Sir Adam is Cataract Traction by Jihn Mills. It has been out of production for several years but I see copies popingup used here or there.I know the author as well he's one of our museums founding members. The book cronicles the beck lines The London and Port Stanely the Toronto Suberban. Hamilton and Brantford.the list goes on. It's well worth the read if you can get your hands on it. The second is Traction on the Grand by the same author. They cover essentialy all of Ontario's interurban routes.You can check our museum's online gift shop listings normally we don't have the books but quite often we find older copies and resell them. If you let our powers at be know your looking for them we can advise you if copies become available. Rob

It is ironic that the Brantford and Hamilton right of way in Eagle Place in Brantford was built on what used to be the tow path for the canal built many years earlier by the Grand River Navigation Company, and of course is now a walking path. However even more ironic is that the 403 where it travels from Ancaster to West Hamilton used the same railway's right of way for it's own multi lane limited access highway.

Those tracks in Eagle Place were still there until abut 15 or so years ago, perhaps a bit longer back as with age the time periods seem to compress. Even though the railway was abandoned in the early thirties.

[athelney]

RE the thought about dome car names - a good source of passenger car info is the Canadian Trackside Guide -put out by the good folks at the Bytown Railway Society in Ottawa - see previous reference about the Branchline magazine
Section 4 lists all the VIA passenger cars & names as well as info about other railways in Canada - including timetables etc -- ( also includes Freight items as well ) Be warned !!!!

[trolleyboy]

Tom if you are wanting some other good reading I have a couple of suggestions.Interesting that you mentioned the need for a new and comprehensive rail system mg-lev et all.There once was an influential Ontario Cabinet minister know us Sir adam Beck his dream was a comprehensive electric interurban system of travel. In his time over 30 systems were established. It's too bad his vision wasen't continued all those systems are now gone and we will need to rebuild them eventually when the gas does hit $5.00 a gallon. If you can find it a good book on Sir Adam is Cataract Traction by Jihn Mills. It has been out of production for several years but I see copies popingup used here or there.I know the author as well he's one of our museums founding members. The book cronicles the beck lines The London and Port Stanely the Toronto Suberban. Hamilton and Brantford.the list goes on. It's well worth the read if you can get your hands on it. The second is Traction on the Grand by the same author. They cover essentialy all of Ontario's interurban routes.You can check our museum's online gift shop listings normally we don't have the books but quite often we find older copies and resell them. If you let our powers at be know your looking for them we can advise you if copies become available. Rob

[daveklepper]

On the Aderondak between Montreal and New York. Didn't you realize it was VIA's responsibility to clean up the mess on the train and send it out clean? Amtrak doesn't ahve the workers in Montreal, they belong to VIA!

Of course if things get tight, I can see why the coach cleaners would give priority to VIA;s own equipment over "foriegners". That's just natural.

[Junctionfan]

I compare the government's treating of the passenger service to the kind of pride in your own home. If you take good care of your home and take pride in it, it will pay off and it will look good. It pays off because it increases the value and is pleasing to the eye.

Because Amtrak is lousy in comparison to VIA, I can't help think that there is a bunch of congressman and senators with uncut lawns, dishes all over the furniture, dirty floors and other eye sores. It sounds silly but that is what it is like; they don't show any pride in their belongings.

It helps thought that David Colonette ex transportation minister, was a railfan who prefered VIA.

[siberianmo]

QUOTE: The groundrules are pretty simple:

Share your thoughts about Canadian passenger railroading - past and present. Let's not bash one another because of differences in opinion and of course, nationalities. Above all - keep politics out of our discussions.

FOR NEWCOMERS: May I suggest that you browse the pages from start to finish? You may find something that will enhance what you are about to post, plus you'll find out "where we've been."

Ladies and Gentlemen, let's talk Canadian passenger trains!

==========================================================
Good Morning all - Never a dull moment when the subject of CANADIAN
PASSENGER RAILROADS comes up! Thanx to some new contributors and many "regulars," this topic continues to live![tup][:D]

By the way, check out the "stats" info previously posted .......

Let's jump right in ......

QUOTE: kevgos Posted: 29 March 2005, 14:17:25
Just thought I'dthrow some of my useless comments in here again, this time on the CP routing of what is now the Canadian... I read somewhere (can't recall where offhand) that the primary reasoning for the rerouting onto CN's track (through Edmonton and Jasper) was primarily that there were everal "influental politicians" living along the CP line (Calgary, Regina, etc.) who were said to have made it QUITE clear that they would be glad if they never saw a passenger train again. Secondly, VIA is government, like CN was at the time, so the trackage fees were likely cheaper, if not non-existant, since the government owns all 3 (the CN trains, the CN tracks and VIA). At this point (with CN being privatised, as you Canadians would say) it likely wouldn't matter cost-wise, since VIA is still government, but the railroads are both private.

Hey! Your comments are hardly "useless" - they are appreciated and I hope you continue with us ....... I too have heard of the politicians representing several cities along the CP route that losing passenger service was no loss at all. Then there were others, who fought tooth and nail to retain it. Depends, as always, on which side of the issue one is on. A similar evolution will take place should the service be taken from CN trackage - just different players.

Appreciate your thoughts![tup][tup][:D]

QUOTE: VerMontanan Posted: 29 March 2005, 14:21:13
Siberianmo stated:
"Let's dwell a bit on accuracy - the pictures I have from our December 31st, 2002 departure from Toronto en route Vancouver reveals 2 coaches in the consist. The return trip on January 5th, 2003 had 2 coaches as well. I cannot and will not debate the make up of each and every train in winter - but I know what shows up on my pictures and what I saw during our walks from the Park Car forward and return ........ I'm not familiar with the publication "Branchline," but perhaps I should send them my photos."
----------------------------------
You are correct, as the dates you cite are during the Christmas/New Year's holiday travel periods, which are some of the busiest of the year. (And only two coaches then?) I would guess that the number of sleepers were increased during this time, too. One coach is standard during the slowest times of the year, and the train can run with as few as four or five sleeping cars.
----------------------------------
"Sorry, but I grow weary of the comparison to Amtrak and points in Montana. It's hands down - they ARE two different services - and VIA Rail's is better IN MY OPINION for those wanting to take a rail journey for the pleasure of it all. That's where this all began - the pleasure of it all."
----------------------------------
True. To each his own. However, we all can define pleasure in our own way. I derive great pleasure from knowing that passenger trains still can be a lifeline to the communities they serve - even in remote areas of North America.

Dave - Regarding your last statement: There is a huge difference between what they "can" be and what they have become. Remote areas unquestionably can benefit and some do. Both countries are so enamored with automobiles and the ever expanding network of highways that I find it difficult, even in the best of circumstances (or should I say, worst .....) for trains to make that difference when it comes to the more urban and suburban places. I wish it were so - but unless and until we see gasoline at well over $5 a gallon will the concern be voiced in those hallowed halls of Congress and Parliament to restore that which was decades ago - reliable passenger rail service.

It is heartening to see the continued growth of light-rail in both countries - but even that has costs spiraling ever upwards. My "wish" - a viable 21st century transportation plan that encompasses all alternatives for travel - state of the art planning to include MAGLEV and so on. A great read is Joseph Vranich's "Super Trains - Solutions to America's Transportation Gridlock," has great relevance to today's situation both north and south of the Canadian/U.S. border even though written in 1991.

Thanx for your continued input![tup][:D]

QUOTE: daveklepper Posted: 29 March 2005, 14:26:53

What about coach fares? Are they reasonable enough so that the average Canadian can use the train for transportation? Even short distances like Edmonton to Jasper?

Response "down the line."[:)]

QUOTE: trolleyboy Posted: Today, 15:53:25

QUOTE: Originally posted by andrewjonathon
I have just been reading the thread from the last couple of days and found the discussions to be very interesting.
---------------------------------------------
In regards to the discussion about VIA's Canadian and it continued existence, I would make a couple of notes. I think that the fact the Canadian is largely a tourist train will ultimately help to ensure its operation continues in the years to come. It has been primarily a tourist train for many years. However, Canada (especially British Columbia) is well acutely aware of the role tourism plays in the western economy. Even at the time of the 1990 VIA cuts, the arguments made for keeping the Canadian were largely based on its value to tourism. (VIA even operates an office in Japan). Due its value as a tourist train, I believe that it will live outlive the Budd passenger cars when that day eventually comes. Hello I figured that i'd wade in on the "'Canadian" discussion as well. I know that 3 years ago i atempted to get passage from Toronto to Winnepeg. I was unable to because the train was booked solid not even coach seats available. This was in early June.So tourist or not it is a gold mine for VIA and I would say virtually cut proof. You have alot af Europeans , Americans,Asian et all visitors comming to Canada to speacifically ride it.
Hopefully they do eventually get back onto the proper CP trackage that should only increase ridership.And yes as aregular Canadian i would still like to eventually experience the trip as well.junctionfanThat cab ride must have been something,thanks for the Caso update as well.I've always thought myself that the 406 was the road to nowhere i've often wondered why it was built in the first place.Tear it out and put a real transportation system in. Oops I've already ranted down that path. But highspeed literail is the answer for the penninsula I truly beleave that. Perhaps in time once gas gets to a completely unmanageable price spending money on the highspeed electrification will begin to make sence. I know I'll be the first persom in line to fide Niagara Falls to Toronto and all stops in between. Rob

As always - Rob - you are an "oracle"! Thanx![tup][tup]

QUOTE: trolleyboy Posted: 29 March 2005, 16:08:04
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper
What about coach fares? Are they reasonable enough so that the average Canadian can use the train for transportation? Even short distances like Edmonton to Jasper?
----------------------------
In the instance I was looking at round trip for what I wanted TO to Winnipeg would have been $450. Airfare would have been $400 on Air Canada ( I don't like flying so this wasn't a real option for me) I ended up driving St catharines to The Peg two days and $550 worth of gas. Remembering of coarse that at the time gas was .55-.65 cents a litre fot the .81-.87 of today. The Canadian was really the cheapest option. I don't imagine the prices have changed much other than gas to today's numbers.

Siberianmo Branchline is published by the Bytown Railway society.
www.bytownrailwaysociety.com I beleave. It's a good magazine lots of good railway information on all the small and large operations in Canada. VIA on down. Rob

Appreciate your thoughts ...... Thanx for the info on "Branchline." It appears that all I will be reading in my so-called, "Golden Years" will be books and periodicals regarding trains - real and model! So, what's wrong with that![tup][:D]

QUOTE: Junctionfan Posted: 29 March 2005, 16:19:18 Quote

If you tried to take Jetsgo, the Canadian might have been quicker too

Well at least today.

Can't say - we travel Air Canada from St. Louis (non-stop service to Toronto).
Someone once said, "You get what you pay for." Don't know the applicability of that statement to today's airline situation in both countries ...... but I think somehow, it might apply.[tup][:D]

QUOTE: wrwatkins Posted: 29 March 2005, 16:24:36 Quote

For Siberianmo--

Since you love Budd RDC cars as I do you might want to check the current issue of Railway Age. CalTrans has some for sale there.

***

Oh yeah! Just what this subdivsion I live in (and the "founding fathers & mothers) would dearly love to see. I recall "floating" the idea of a caboose in my backyard and you would have thought that the world was going to come to a quick and abrupt end. Actually, I was really kidding around because our indentures are So restrictive and I do like to stir the proverbial pot from time to time. So when I mentioned something about, "Well, I guess
that kills my idea for a model railroad within a real caboose I have in mind for our backyard ......." It was really funny! No - as much as I love those RDC's - ain't gonna buy one - plus my wife would have to get another job to afford it!! I'm much too busy with the Siberian Husky (Juneau) and my model railroad(s), not to mention these forums![tup][:D]

By the way - 2nd request: Have you received my e-mail???

QUOTE: VerMontanan Posted: 29 March 2005, 16:27:18
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper
What about coach fares? Are they reasonable enough so that the average Canadian can use the train for transportation? Even short distances like Edmonton to Jasper?
-------------------------------------------
.Sounded like a valid question, so I checked it out:

For travel tomorrow (March 30, 2005):

Jasper to Edmonton, 235 miles, VIA train 2, cheapest fare available is "Comfort Liberty"
(coach) at $119.84 Canadian, or $99.04 US.

Meanwhile, south of the border:

Whitefi***o Havre, 255 miles, Amtrak train 8, cheapest fare available is reserved coach,
$32.00 US.

A month from now, April 30, the cheapest VIA fare is "Comfort Super" at $90.95
Canadian, or $75.15 US; The fare on April 30 from Whitefi***o Havre remains at $32.

As information, Greyhound has three daily trips from Jasper to Edmonton and its one-
way fare is $57.83, or $47.75US.

I would guess that at this price, there is very little local travel on the Canadian. And, remember, if you wanted to go tomorrow from, say, Valemont to Viking on the Canadian, even though you're lucky enough to have picked one of the three days per week the train runs, you're out of luck, because you didn't decide in time to book within the 48-hour limit required for travel to/from some of the "smaller" stations.

It appears that "Comfort Liberty" is the highest, or least-restrictive coach fare, and is all that is available for tomorrow. What is not known is whether the high fare is in place to limit ridership in the limited coach space, or whether the fare is just highest closest to the time of travel, as is usually the case.

As for the Empire Builder, there are indeed every day numerous people riding between Whitefish and Shelby and between Havre and Minot. Whether these people could tolerate VIA-like high fares is not known. They don't have the option of alternate bus transportation.

There you go, everything one needed to know (and perhaps a bit more) on the subject that never quits! (What IS the subject anyway? I've lost track (ha ha - track! - how appropriate!!)[tup][:D]

QUOTE: passengerfan Posted: 29 March 2005, 18:41:31
I remember one of my most memorable trips across Canada was in February 1968 on a trip that that I will never forget. I left Miami on an Air Canada DC-8 for a non-stop flight to Montreal where I grabbed a cab to Central Station and with fifteen minutes to spare boarded the westbound Panoram for Winnipeg and after a lengthy layover continued on to Vancouver on the western Panorama complet with Dome from Winnipeg. In those days the Montreal section and the Toronto section of the Panorama and Super Continental were combined and separated at Capreal in Northern Ontario. The CP Canadian sectiond
from Montreal and Toronto were combined or separated at Sudbury. The Panorama was actually a full service train with equipment almost identical to the Super Continental. This included coaches a coach lounge dining car firat class lounge car and sleeping cars almost the identical makeup to the Super Continental. I don't know if CN was trying to get rid of the train or what but as I recall the layover in Winnipeg was about eight hours if one had a through ticket. Believe me Winnipeg in February is no place to be outside the station. I
have heard the corner of Portage and Main is one of the coldest in Canada and I will take their word for it. The train west of Winnipeg was more crowded than the Panoram east of Winnipeg had been the Former Milwaukee Super Dome was a great place to relax and enjoy the trip with the lounge on the lower level great to talk with fellow passengers. The Sceneramic Domes as CN called them operated on the Panorama between Winnipeg and Vancouver at the time and on the Super Continental between Edmonton and Vancouver at the time. The CP had already discontinued their secondary transcontinental the
Dominion by this time and Montreal CP coach yard had an excess of Park cars and Skyline cars their that had formerly operated in that train. My return from Vancouver that February 1968 was with my new wife on the Canadian to Toronto. Probably the hardest part of that trip was leaving Miami where the temperature was in the high 70's and landing in Montreal in minus temperatures later that same evening.

There must be a higher power! Thanx so much for a real story about passenger rail in Canada. Thought for awhile that the well had run dry![tup][tup][tup][:D]

I wonder if there is a single place where all the names for dome cars can be found? I'll have to check my library .....

Thanx again![tup][:D]

QUOTE: Dayliner Posted: 29 March 2005, 18:53:11
QUOTE: Regarding the service levels on the VIA's Malahat, one needs to keep in the mind the reason the train continues to exist is somewhat controversial and may affect the service offered. VIA planned to discontinued service on this line along with the other gut wrenching cuts VIA made in 1990. However, the provision of train service on Vancouver Island was part of the confederation agreement BC made with the Canadian government in 1870 when it joined Canada and as a result the courts forced VIA to abandon plans to discontinue the Malahat service.
-------------------------------------
As with most things concerning the E&N these days, the litigation over the passenger service is quite convoluted. When VIA planned to cut the service in 1990, the provincial government argued in BC Supreme Court (and won) that there was indeed a constitutional obligation to provide passenger service on the E&N, dating from the time BC joined Confederation in 1871. However, the court found that the obligation to provide passenger service applied only to the Victoria-Nanaimo section, since that was the extent of the line in 1871. Nevertheless, VIA maintained its service over the entire Victoria sub,
Victoria to Courtenay. The BC Supreme Court decision was appealed, and some years later the Supreme Court of Canada found that there was no constitutional obligation to provide passenger service on the E&N. Notwithstanding that decision, VIA has continued to operate the service.

Thanx for putting this all in one place - I was wondering about the E&N and VIA ... now we all know! Yeah, I know - it could be researched, but this is far more fun![tup][tup][:D]

QUOTE: Dayliner Posted: 29 March 2005, 19:02:57
QUOTE: the Victoria-Nanaimo section, since that was the extent of the line in 1871
-------------------------------------------
Supplemental--big historical boo-boo: the E&N, of course, was completed in 1886. Duh!
So I can't explain the reasons for the BC Supreme Court's decision--maybe there are some legal beagle railfans out there who can?

Thanx![:D]

QUOTE: enr2099 Posted: 29 March 2005, 19:13:32
I may be wrong but in 1994, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that VIA has no obligation to run the passenger service on the E&N. I should also point out that the agreement was signed in 1871, but the E&N didn't exist until 1883, and didn't start running trains until 1886.

Tyler Welsford

Tyler - ditto from above![:D]

QUOTE: enr2099 Posted: 29 Mar 2005, 19:21:
In 1871, the CPR was supposed to build the trans-Canada rail line over to the island via Seymore Narrows to Esquimalt. When the CPR decided to run the line to Port Moody instead, the agreement was still binding. The Feds had to provide rail service between Victoria and Nanaimo, that's when Sir John A. MacDonald convinced Robert Dunsmuir to build the E&N and by 1886 the E&N was up and running.

Tyler Welsford

More dittos from above![:D]

QUOTE: OnHarry Posted: 29 Mar 2005, 20:26:
If I might digress for a moment or two.

As someone stated earlier on, in the 1960's CN was making a sincere effort to increase passenger trains. Even then they seemed to put most of their efforts into the WIndsor Quebec City Corrider. One pleasant benefit of that policy was that they kept a steam engine available for excursion service, in this case Northern 6218. In Brantford the S. C. Johnson company chartered the steam engine for a trip to the Toronto Islands for a company picnic, I believe in 1969 but I forget the exact date.

The engine ran light to Brantford and turned itrself on the wye at Lynden Ontario at the Branchton Subdivision, (and the former Great Western mainline) then backed into Brantford. My friend, Carl Bury and I were walking out to Park Road to catch the 6218 as it entered Brantford. We were caught by surprise as it was moving light having no train to pull, and backwards. I managed to get a picture of it though. Somewhat later I caught it again this time running forward with the train heading for Toronto and a large banner across the front of the engine.

That was a memeorable experience, but not the most memeorable of the day. Carl and I with the indulgence of my dad, (neither of us could drive at that point) went out to Lynden that evening to await the return of the charter train, it was getting too dark to take pictures so you have only my visual remembrances of what happened then. We waited at Lynden and saw the usual frieght and passenger trains of that time of the evening, but we kept watching to the east for the steamer. We were worried they might end up subbing a diesel for the 6218. Sometime around 9 or 9:30 we saw a headlight come over the top of
the grade from Dundas to the east and knew right away that the 6218 was still in command. As it approched Lynden, it is a fairly long straightaway, we could see the smoke from the exhaust in the dying light and dad who had see many more trains than we had, as he was a sectionman in the TH&B, said "he's moving pretty fast".

He was right, as it approached Lynden and the crossing there, we had no reason to doubt, Dad's initial statement. The train was moving westward at great speed now released from the constraints of the grade. It was a blur approaching us and as it came closer to the protected crossing , it started the usual signal except of course this was a steam whistle, and it sent chills up and down my spine as it literally roared towards us, and then it was upon us, a blinding flash of rods and steam and noise as it pounded past us at what must
have been close to the passenger limit of eighty miles per hour.

You know for one brief moment we were transported to an era when there was only steam, and passenger trains ran in defiance of the fastest freight trains.

Sorry for the attempt at a poetic flight of fancy there, but that was also the CN passenger service in the 60's. I have pictures of that day and when I find them I will try and post them.

James

James - Digress away! You've stayed on topic and it is a good read! Appreciate it and don't be a stranger ..... [tup][tup][tup][:D]

QUOTE: Junctionfan Posted: 29 Mar 2005, 22:06:
If the CASO was still around, it would have been nice for a VIA train to go on that.

Stations could be in Niagara Falls, Hagersville, St.Thomas, Simcoe and Windsor.

Got that, corridor fans?[:D]

QUOTE: chateauricher Posted: 29 Mar 2005, 23:13:
As stated in earlier posts, it is true that VIA Rail fares seem to be considerably higher than those for Amtrak trains travelling similar distances. However, has anyone considered why this is so? Could it be that the quality of the service and rolling stock is much better on the north side of the border?

A few years ago, I took the train from Quebec City to NYC. The VIA train from Quebec City to Montreal consisted of well maintained and staffed cars. A staff member made rounds regularly during the 3 hour trip selling snacks and drinks. This was true in each of the cars in the train.

I can't say the same for the 10+ hour train ride on Amtrak from Montreal to NYC. The only staff I saw the entire trip was the conductor collecting tickets after each stop. For food and drinks, you had to make your way to the dining car's snack bar. I happened to be seated in the last car and had to walk through another car to get to the dining car. I saw no staff members anywhere except in the dining car. The toilet was a mess. Upon entering the toilet, you stood in a veritable lake (I hoped it was water). There were no towels to dry
your hands. The toilet paper had fallen into the "lake". When you washed your hands, the water flowed quite nicely down the drain in the sink, right onto the floor. (So, it was water! ) The cars themselves must have dated from the 1950s or 1960s -- poorly maintained, in dire need of renovations -- with fluorescent lighting that gave me a splitting headache by the time we arrived in NYC's Penn Station (some 40 minutes late).

I felt safe and secure on the VIA train. If any passenger needed assistance, there was always a staff member around to whom you could turn. Amtrak seemed to prefer you fend for yourself.

The ticket prices were drastically different (as you may have guessed). The Quebec City- Montreal leg cost about $50 one-way (I forget the exact amount). The Montreal-NYC leg of the trip cost about $130 (return). Yes, VIA Rail cost a lot more (per kilometre); but I felt I got a lot better service and a much better experience.

When comparing VIA Rail to Amtrak, they are so different, its almost like comparing apples to oranges -- the only similarities they share are the facts they are both fruits borne on trees (passenger rail service in North America). So, is it really fair to compare them at all ?

Your experiences echo mine over and over. I do not detect anything other than honesty and an ability to express yourself without rancor or rantings. Your are so right, comparisons simply do not apply. Thanx![tup][tup][tup][:D]

Now, I have had one memorable VIA Rail trip - chronicled on page 5 - that left me "cold" (not deceased!) in terms of the "service" VIA Rail failed to live up to. But that one episode, even though it could have been life threatening, hasn't colored my high expectations each and every time I travel with them. No one or any thing is perfect - but striving for excellence means a lot to me, and I believe VIA Rail has shown me they do, in spite of a "breakdown" in 2003.

I'm also a critic of the purchase of those Renaissance cars ("Euro cars") and fully understand the history - the financial situation - the long term, etc. I just don't like 'em for use on the "Ocean." Does that stop me from traveling with VIA Rail? Nope. I know they are trying to make it "better" and have experienced some of the fruits of their labors - community cars - full service diner (although the food preparation leaves a lot to be desired - see previous posting on page 3 on this too) and single traveler fares for double bedroom occupancy. These things didn't just "happen," they were brought about
by letters, FAX's, e-mails and perhaps phone calls from those of us who wanted a better transition from the joy of traveling in the Budd stainless steel cars to the "Euro" stuff.

'Nuf said and thanx again![tup][tup][:D]

[

QUOTE: Junctionfan Posted: 30 March 2005, 06:42:24
I would say it is. Both services are products of North Americans and supposidly pride of the government. Amtrak is a product of government that doesn't have pride in that and VIA is a product of government who has certain pride for image.

Now that's a thought to ponder ...... Pride can be a good thing or not-so-good. In the case of providing excellence to those paying for services, pride goes a long way in my book! I agree with you .... Thanx![tup][:D]
=============================================
Looks like this epistle has come to a close ...... and my thanx to all for your continuing participation! We may make it to "one month" as a continuing topic ......

See y'all soon![tup]

Tom in Chestefield, MO, USA (Siberianmo)

[Junctionfan]

I would say it is. Both services are products of North Americans and supposidly pride of the government. Amtrak is a product of government that doesn't have pride in that and VIA is a product of government who has certain pride for image.

[chateauricher]

As stated in earlier posts, it is true that VIA Rail fares seem to be considerably higher than those for Amtrak trains travelling similar distances. However, has anyone considered why this is so? Could it be that the quality of the service and rolling stock is much better on the north side of the border?

A few years ago, I took the train from Quebec City to NYC. The VIA train from Quebec City to Montreal consisted of well maintained and staffed cars. A staff member made rounds regularly during the 3 hour trip selling snacks and drinks. This was true in each of the cars in the train.

I can't say the same for the 10+ hour train ride on Amtrak from Montreal to NYC. The only staff I saw the entire trip was the conductor collecting tickets after each stop. For food and drinks, you had to make your way to the dining car's snack bar. I happened to be seated in the last car and had to walk through another car to get to the dining car. I saw no staff members anywhere except in the dining car. The toilet was a mess. Upon entering the toilet, you stood in a veritable lake (I hoped it was water). There were no towels to dry your hands. The toilet paper had fallen into the "lake". When you washed your hands, the water flowed quite nicely down the drain in the sink, right onto the floor. (So, [sigh] it was water! ) The cars themselves must have dated from the 1950s or 1960s -- poorly maintained, in dire need of renovations -- with fluorescent lighting that gave me a splitting headache by the time we arrived in NYC's Penn Station (some 40 minutes late).

I felt safe and secure on the VIA train. If any passenger needed assistance, there was always a staff member around to whom you could turn. Amtrak seemed to prefer you fend for yourself.

The ticket prices were drastically different (as you may have guessed). The Quebec City-Montreal leg cost about $50 one-way (I forget the exact amount). The Montreal-NYC leg of the trip cost about $130 (return). Yes, VIA Rail cost a lot more (per kilometre); but I felt I got a lot better service and a much better experience.

When comparing VIA Rail to Amtrak, they are so different, its almost like comparing apples to oranges -- the only similarities they share are the facts they are both fruits borne on trees (passenger rail service in North America). So, is it really fair to compare them at all ?

[Junctionfan]

If the CASO was still around, it would have been nice for a VIA train to go on that.

Stations could be in Niagara Falls, Hagersville, St.Thomas, Simcoe and Windsor.

[OnHarry]

If I might digress for a moment or two.

As someone stated earlier on, in the 1960's CN was making a sincere effort to increase passenger trains. Even then they seemed to put most of their efforts into the WIndsor Quebec City Corrider. One pleasant benefit of that policy was that they kept a steam engine available for excursion service, in this case Northern 6218. In Brantford the S. C. Johnson company chartered the steam engine for a trip to the Toronto Islands for a company picnic, I believe in 1969 but I forget the exact date.

The engine ran light to Brantford and turned itrself on the wye at Lynden Ontario at the Branchton Subdivision, (and the former Great Western mainline) then backed into Brantford. My friend, Carl Bury and I were walking out to Park Road to catch the 6218 as it entered Brantford. We were caught by surprise as it was moving light having no train to pull, and backwards. I managed to get a picture of it though. Somewhat later I caught it again this time running forward with the train heading for Toronto and a large banner across the front of the engine.

That was a memeorable experience, but not the most memeorable of the day. Carl and I with the indulgence of my dad, (neither of us could drive at that point) went out to Lynden that evening to await the return of the charter train, it was getting too dark to take pictures so you have only my visual remembrances of what happened then. We waited at Lynden and saw the usual frieght and passenger trains of that time of the evening, but we kept watching to the east for the steamer. We were worried they might end up subbing a diesel for the 6218. Sometime around 9 or 9:30 we saw a headlight come over the top of the grade from Dundas to the east and knew right away that the 6218 was still in command. As it approched Lynden, it is a fairly long straightaway, we could see the smoke from the exhaust in the dying light and dad who had see many more trains than we had, as he was a sectionman in the TH&B, said "he's moving pretty fast".

He was right, as it approached Lynden and the crossing there, we had no reason to doubt, Dad's initial statement. The train was moving westward at great speed now released from the constraints of the grade. It was a blur approaching us and as it came closer to the protected crossing , it started the usual signal except of course this was a steam whistle, and it sent chills up and down my spine as it literally roared towards us, and then it was upon us, a blinding flash of rods and steam and noise as it pounded past us at what must have been close to the passenger limit of eighty miles per hour.

You know for one brief moment we were transported to an era when there was only steam, and passenger trains ran in defiance of the fastest freight trains.

Sorry for the attempt at a poetic flight of fancy there, but that was also the CN passenger service in the 60's. I have pictures of that day and when I find them I will try and post them.

James

[enr2099]

In 1871, the CPR was supposed to build the trans-Canada rail line over to the island via Seymore Narrows to Esquimalt. When the CPR decided to run the line to Port Moody instead, the agreement was still binding. The Feds had to provide rail service between Victoria and Nanaimo, that's when Sir John A. MacDonald convinced Robert Dunsmuir to build the E&N and by 1886 the E&N was up and running.

[enr2099]

I may be wrong but in 1994, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that VIA has no obligation to run the passenger service on the E&N. I should also point out that the agreement was signed in 1871, but the E&N didn't exist until 1883, and didn't start running trains until 1886.

[Dayliner]

QUOTE: the Victoria-Nanaimo section, since that was the extent of the line in 1871

Supplemental--big historical boo-boo: the E&N, of course, was completed in 1886. Duh! So I can't explain the reasons for the BC Supreme Court's decision--maybe there are some legal beagle railfans out there who can?

[Dayliner]

QUOTE: Regarding the service levels on the VIA's Malahat, one needs to keep in the mind the reason the train continues to exist is somewhat controversial and may affect the service offered. VIA planned to discontinued service on this line along with the other gut wrenching cuts VIA made in 1990. However, the provision of train service on Vancouver Island was part of the confederation agreement BC made with the Canadian government in 1870 when it joined Canada and as a result the courts forced VIA to abandon plans to discontinue the Malahat service.

As with most things concerning the E&N these days, the litigation over the passenger service is quite convoluted. When VIA planned to cut the service in 1990, the provincial government argued in BC Supreme Court (and won) that there was indeed a constitutional obligation to provide passenger service on the E&N, dating from the time BC joined Confederation in 1871. However, the court found that the obligation to provide passenger service applied only to the Victoria-Nanaimo section, since that was the extent of the line in 1871. Nevertheless, VIA maintained its service over the entire Victoria sub, Victoria to Courtenay. The BC Supreme Court decision was appealed, and some years later the Supreme Court of Canada found that there was no constitutional obligation to provide passenger service on the E&N. Notwithstanding that decision, VIA has continued to operate the service.

[passengerfan]

I remember one of my most memorable trips across Canada was in February 1968 on a trip that that I will never forget. I left Miami on an Air Canada DC-8 for a non-stop flight to Montreal where I grabbed a cab to Central Station and with fifteen minutes to spare boarded the westbound Panoram for Winnipeg and after a lengthy layover continued on to Vancouver on the western Panorama complet with Dome from Winnipeg. In those days the Montreal section and the Toronto section of the Panorama and Super Continental were combined and separated at Capreal in Northern Ontario. The CP Canadian sectiond from Montreal and Toronto were combined or separated at Sudbury. The Panorama was actually a full service train with equipment almost identical to the Super Continental. This included coaches a coach lounge dining car firat class lounge car and sleeping cars almost the identical makeup to the Super Continental. I don't know if CN was trying to get rid of the train or what but as I recall the layover in Winnipeg was about eight hours if one had a through ticket. Believe me Winnipeg in February is no place to be outside the station. I have heard the corner of Portage and Main is one of the coldest in Canada and I will take their word for it. The train west of Winnipeg was more crowded than the Panoram east of Winnipeg had been the Former Milwaukee Super Dome was a great place to relax and enjoy the trip with the lounge on the lower level great to talk with fellow passengers. The Sceneramic Domes as CN called them operated on the Panorama between Winnipeg and Vancouver at the time and on the Super Continental between Edmonton and Vancouver at the time. The CP had already discontinued their secondary transcontinental the Dominion by this time and Montreal CP coach yard had an excess of Park cars and Skyline cars their that had formerly operated in that train. My return from Vancouver that February 1968 was with my new wife on the Canadian to Toronto. Probably the hardest part of that trip was leaving Miami where the temperature was in the high 70's and landing in Montreal in minus temperatures later that same evening.

[VerMontanan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

What about coach fares? Are they reasonable enough so that the average Canadian can use the train for transportation? Even short distances like Edmonton to Jasper?

.
Sounded like a valid question, so I checked it out:

For travel tomorrow (March 30, 2005):

Jasper to Edmonton, 235 miles, VIA train 2, cheapest fare available is "Comfort Liberty" (coach) at $119.84 Canadian, or $99.04 US.

Meanwhile, south of the border:

Whitefi***o Havre, 255 miles, Amtrak train 8, cheapest fare available is reserved coach, $32.00 US.

A month from now, April 30, the cheapest VIA fare is "Comfort Super" at $90.95 Canadian, or $75.15 US; The fare on April 30 from Whitefi***o Havre remains at $32.

As information, Greyhound has three daily trips from Jasper to Edmonton and its one-way fare is $57.83, or $47.75US.

I would guess that at this price, there is very little local travel on the Canadian. And, remember, if you wanted to go tomorrow from, say, Valemont to Viking on the Canadian, even though you're lucky enough to have picked one of the three days per week the train runs, you're out of luck, because you didn't decide in time to book within the 48-hour limit required for travel to/from some of the "smaller" stations.

It appears that "Comfort Liberty" is the highest, or least-restrictive coach fare, and is all that is available for tomorrow. What is not known is whether the high fare is in place to limit ridership in the limited coach space, or whether the fare is just highest closest to the time of travel, as is usually the case.

As for the Empire Builder, there are indeed every day numerous people riding between Whitefish and Shelby and between Havre and Minot. Whether these people could tolerate VIA-like high fares is not known. They don't have the option of alternate bus transportation.

[Anonymous]

For Siberianmo--

Since you love Budd RDC cars as I do you might want to check the current issue of Railway Age. CalTrans has some for sale there.

***

[Junctionfan]

If you tried to take Jetsgo, the Canadian might have been quicker too[:D]

Well at least today.

[trolleyboy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

What about coach fares? Are they reasonable enough so that the average Canadian can use the train for transportation? Even short distances like Edmonton to Jasper?

In the instance I was looking at round trip for what I wanted TO to Winnipeg would have been $450. Airfare would have been $400 on Air Canada ( I don't like flying so this wasn't a real option for me) I ended up driving St catharines to The Peg two days and $550 worth of gas. Remembering of coarse that at the time gas was .55-.65 cents a litre fot the .81-.87 of today. The Canadian was really the cheapest option. I don't imagine the prices have changed much other than gas to today's numbers. Siberianmo Branchline is published by the Bytown Railway society. www.bytownrailwaysociety.com I beleave. It's a good magazine lots of good railway information on all the small and large operations in Canada. VIA on down. Rob

[trolleyboy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by andrewjonathon

I have just been reading the thread from the last couple of days and found the discussions to be very interesting.



In regards to the discussion about VIA's Canadian and it continued existence, I would make a couple of notes. I think that the fact the Canadian is largely a tourist train will ultimately help to ensure its operation continues in the years to come. It has been primarily a tourist train for many years. However, Canada (especially British Columbia) is well acutely aware of the role tourism plays in the western economy. Even at the time of the 1990 VIA cuts, the arguments made for keeping the Canadian were largely based on its value to tourism. (VIA even operates an office in Japan). Due its value as a tourist train, I believe that it will live outlive the Budd passenger cars when that day eventually comes.

Hello I figured that i'd wade in on the "'Canadian" discussion as well. I know that 3 years ago i atempted to get passage from Toronto to Winnepeg. I was unable to because the train was booked solid not even coach seats available. This was in early June.So tourist or not it is a gold mine for VIA and I would say virtually cut proof. You have alot af Europeans , Americans,Asian et all visitors comming to Canada to speacifically ride it. Hopefully they do eventually get back onto the proper CP trackage that should only increase ridership.And yes as aregular Canadian i would still like to eventually experience the trip as well.junctionfanThat cab ride must have been something,thanks for the Caso update as well.I've always thought myself that the 406 was the road to nowhere i've often wondered why it was built in the first place.Tear it out and put a real transportation system in. Oops I've already ranted down that path. But highspeed literail is the answer for the penninsula I truly beleave that. Perhaps in time once gas gets to a completely unmanageable price spending money on the highspeed electrification will begin to make sence. I know I'll be the first persom in line to fide Niagara Falls to Toronto and all stops in between. Rob

[daveklepper]

What about coach fares? Are they reasonable enough so that the average Canadian can use the train for transportation? Even short distances like Edmonton to Jasper?

[VerMontanan]

Siberianmo stated:

"Let's dwell a bit on accuracy - the pictures I have from our December 31st, 2002 departure from Toronto en route Vancouver reveals 2 coaches in the consist. The return trip on January 5th, 2003 had 2 coaches as well. I cannot and will not debate the make up of each and every train in winter - but I know what shows up on my pictures and what I saw during our walks from the Park Car forward and return ........ I'm not familiar with the publication "Branchline," but perhaps I should send them my photos."

.
You are correct, as the dates you cite are during the Christmas/New Year's holiday travel periods, which are some of the busiest of the year. (And only two coaches then?) I would guess that the number of sleepers were increased during this time, too. One coach is standard during the slowest times of the year, and the train can run with as few as four or five sleeping cars.

.
"Sorry, but I grow weary of the comparison to Amtrak and points in Montana. It's hands down - they ARE two different services - and VIA Rail's is better IN MY OPINION for those wanting to take a rail journey for the pleasure of it all. That's where this all began - the pleasure of it all."

.
True. To each his own. However, we all can define pleasure in our own way. I derive great pleasure from knowing that passenger trains still can be a lifeline to the communities they serve - even in remote areas of North America.

[kevgos]

Just thought I'dthrow some of my useless comments in here again, this time on the CP routing of what is now the Canadian... I read somewhere (can't recall where offhand) that the primary reasoning for the rerouting onto CN's track (through Edmonton and Jasper) was primarily that there were several "influental politicians" living along the CP line (Calgary, Regina, etc.) who were said to have made it QUITE clear that they would be glad if they never saw a passenger train again. Secondly, VIA is government, like CN was at the time, so the trackage fees were likely cheaper, if not non-existant, since the government owns all 3 (the CN trains, the CN tracks and VIA). At this point (with CN being privatised, as you Canadians would say) it likely wouldn't matter cost-wise, since VIA is still government, but the railroads are both private.

[siberianmo]

CANADIAN PASSENGER RAILROADS - Let's Talk! Summary sheet ........

Thought some of you would appreciate 'where we are' with this topic ... some stats to ponder ..... My posts are more of a "moderator," therefore I've not counted them .......

I have tried to place these in nice, neat columns - but cannot seem to get this program to cooperate. So - read them as follows:

Member's name/first post/posts to my compilation of Mar 29th. Enjoy![tup][:D]

siberianmo 02 Mar 2005 NOT COUNTED
tomtrain 02 Mar 2005 xxxx
dehusman 02 Mar 2005 x
athelney 02 Mar 2005 xxxxx
Modelcar 02 Mar 2005 xx
daveklepper 02 Mar 2005 xxxxxxxxxxxxx
martin.knoepfel 02 Mar 2005 x
tatans 02 Mar 2005 xxxxxxxx
morseman 02 Mar 2005 xxxxxxxxx
lincoln5390 02 Mar 2005 x

passengerfan 03 Mar 2005 xxxxxxxxx
trainboyH16-44 03 Mar 2005 x
andrewjonathon 03 Mar 2005 xxxxxx

egmurphy 05 Mar 2005 x
selector 05 Mar 2005 xxxxxxxx

gbrewer 07 Mar 2005 x

edgarJowsey 08 Mar 2005 x

Grinandbearit 08 Mar 2005 xxxxx

trolleyboy 11 Mar 2005 xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Dayliner 12 Mar 2005 xxxxx
kevgos 12 Mar 2005 x

wrwatkins 14 Mar 2005 xxxxxxx
luct 14 Mar 2005 x

METRO 15 Mar 2005 x

OnHarry 20 Mar 2005 xxx

Junctionfan 21 Mar 2005 xxxxxxxxx

Sask_Tinplater 22 Mar 2005 xxx
valleytenderfoot 24 Mar 2005 x

CANADIANPACIFIC2816 25 Mar 2005 x
enr2099 25 Mar 2005 xxx
VerMontanan 25 Mar 2005 xxxx

drephpe 26 Mar 2005 xx

chateauricher 30 Mar 2005 xx

Interesting, wouldn't you say? Since there is no particular value to these stats, please let's not anyone get their shorts in a knot over them![tup[[:D]

See y'all soon ......

Tom in Chesterfield, MO, USA (Siberianmo)

[siberianmo]

QUOTE: The groundrules are pretty simple:

Share your thoughts about Canadian passenger railroading - past and present. Let's not bash one another because of differences in opinion and of course, nationalities. Above all - keep politics out of our discussions.

FOR NEWCOMERS: May I suggest that you browse the pages from start to finish? You may find something that will enhance what you are about to post, plus you'll find out "where we've been."

Ladies and Gentlemen, let's talk Canadian passenger trains!

====================================================
Good Morning Canadian Passenger Railroaders ....... Hope this fine day finds all of you eager to contribute positively to whatever it is you "do"!

Once again, many discussion items to look at and perhaps reply to .... so here goes![tup][:D]

In the seemingly never ending debate (have no clue how it got to this level) between VIA Rail's "Canadian" and Amtak's "Empire Builder" - my final thoughts ......

QUOTE: VerMontanan Posted 27 Mar 2005 11:39:47 [PARTIALLY QUOTED]
Tom,

I do appreciate your point of view with the Canadian. My pointing out its shortcomings is just something that I think needs to be brought to light if we're discussing all aspects of Canadian passenger trains. I've personally lined up travel on the Canadian for several groups of friends that want a unique travel experience, and they've all loved it, as have I .............

One last comment, though, just to put the utility of service offered by today's "Canadian" in its proper context: When you say, "I should add that the reason coaches are included in the consist for VIA Rail's "Canadian" is precisely for those who are making a journey between stops along the route. Those are the folks you will be observing getting on and off at the lesser known stations in the Provinces - not all nor always, but most of the time," this needs to be clarified. In each issue of the Canadian railroad magazine "Branchline" there is a "selection of passenger consists." To be accurate, in the winter,
your term "coaches" should be replaced with "coach". Yes, that's right. One coach for a train operating from Toronto to Vancouver with, I believe, 62 seats. Of course, the same train can have four to eight sleeping cars so I'm not suggesting the there is no one on the train. Still, when one compares (during this season) 62 seats three times a week being offered through Melville, Saskatchewan to the 225 or so daily seats offered by Amtrak through Williston, North Dakota, it does show that indeed these are two vastly different services.

Let's dwell a bit on accuracy - the pictures I have from our December 31st, 2002 departure from Toronto en route Vancouver reveals 2 coaches in the consist. The return trip on January 5th, 2003 had 2 coaches as well. I cannot and will not debate the make up of each and every train in winter - but I know what shows up on my pictures and what I saw during our walks from the Park Car forward and return ........ I'm not familiar with the publication "Branchline," but perhaps I should send them my photos.[:)]

Sorry, but I grow weary of the comparison to Amtrak and points in Montana. It's hands down - they ARE two different services - and VIA Rail's is better IN MY OPINION for those wanting to take a rail journey for the pleasure of it all. That's where this all began - the pleasure of it all.

See ya[:D]

QUOTE: VerMontananPosted: 28 Mar 2005, 16:12:47 [PARTIALLY QUOTED]

Tom (Siberianmo) states (in reply to Dave):

"Concour wholeheartedly with your paragraph 1 commentary. We will soon see the end of Amtrak for many of its segments in the U.S. - Oct 1st isn't that far off. Hopefully, VIA Rail will continue on - it isn't what many want it to be - but it sure beats having nothing, as in zip, zero and zilch!"

...........In summary, my point is that when the Canadian is similarly threatened, where is the support for the train going to come from and are Canadians going to care what the tourists think? At this point, I believe the shortcomings will overwhelm the "experience" of the classic Budd-built equipment, and the strong local support that is currently being displayed along many Amtrak routes today for that service will not be there for the Canadian, a train that local people do not and for many can not use.

Read on ..... some comments further "down" the line from AndrewJonathon

QUOTE: DaveKlepper Posted 28 Mar 2005, 15:12:23
I am still hoping that Amtrak's present route structure will be preserved. Of course that is a far cry from what is really required.

But do you understand (sorry this isn't Canada, but the thought might be applicable some day) that Mineta would compromise safety by having a Federal Government rebuilding of the NEC while Amtrak controls operations?

The rebuilding under traffic of Penn Sta. and the NE Corridor electrification extension under traffic were safe because one authority made decisions on both construction and operation. You split the two and you have a real potential for disaster, as did occure as you know in Paddington Station London.

You don't save money by adding another and redundant bureracracy!

Dave - The subject of Amtrak has and continues to be "emotional" for many. Sorry to have to say this - [#offtopic] I really know where you are 'coming' from - but there are so many other threads for people to 'vent' their frustrations with Amtrak .....

Still appreciate your willingness to contribute and hope you continue to do so![tup][:D]

QUOTE: andrewjonathonPosted: Today, 00:20:06
I have just been reading the thread from the last couple of days and found the discussions to be very interesting.

Regarding the service levels on the VIA's Malahat, one needs to keep in the mind the reason the train continues to exist is somewhat controversial and may affect the service offered. VIA planned to discontinued service on this line along with the other gut wrenching cuts VIA made in 1990. However, the provision of train service on Vancouver Island was part of the confederation agreement BC made with the Canadian government in 1870 when it joined Canada and as a result the courts forced VIA to abandon plans to discontinue the Malahat service. While VIA can be required to provide the service, I wonder if it affects the level of service they are provide.

In regards to the discussion about VIA's Canadian and it continued existence, I would make a couple of notes. I think that the fact the Canadian is largely a tourist train will ultimately help to ensure its operation continues in the years to come. It has been primarily a tourist train for many years. plays in the western economy. Even at the time of the 1990 VIA cuts, the arguments made for keeping the Canadian were largely based on its value to tourism. (VIA even
operates an office in Japan). Due its value as a tourist train, I believe that it will live outlive the Budd passenger cars when that day eventually comes.

The second reason I believe the Canadian will continue to be supported by the Canadian publie is role the railway played in Canada's creation. Although the Canadian itself doesn't go back that far it continues to be a symbol of the role railways played in creating Canada. Based on the public outcry to the 1990 service cuts, Canadians are proud of that history and want to maintain the historic symbols associated with it.

A few years ago VIA rail started to make noise that they wanted to return the Canadian to its original route on the CPR through the Rockies. They were unable to do so due to a contract they had signed with the Canadian Rocky Mountaineer train company. However, I believe that the contract expires in the next few years and I hope VIA will take the opportunity to move the Canadian back to its original route which really has superior scenery and even a stronger tourist potential.

Andrew - appreciate your taking the time to document your thoughts ...... well done![tup][tup][:D]

I also read about the "history" regarding the continuation of the "Malahat" and am glad that it is still operating - no matter what the reason. I'll take an RDC trip any day, any time and don't particularly care what the "label" is - "real" or "tourist."

My thoughts on the "demise" of the "Canadian" occuring when the current equipment finally reaches the end of the line is simply this: the charm of the train is all about those cars - of course, the scenery and route (surely agree that CP's routing would be fantastic!) - factor in. But they may as well change the name when they change the equipment. Case in point - when the "Ocean" began using the Renaissance cars, the "charm" of that train was lost for people like me. It was because of people like me that VIA Rail has kept a consist on the line for one easterly trip per week and return. The "Euro" cars just didn't do much for me and what I happen to enjoy. Same thing will happen on the "Canadian" one day ..... hope not, but it will.

Insofar as support for the train in concerned, it appears to me that Asians and those south of the Canadian border represent the majority of riders in the bedroom cars. Why, because VIA Rail (as has been discussed) has really tried to make the best of both worlds - a regularly scheduled passenger train now designed moreso for tourists. It isn't what we all want, but the reality smacks you between the eyes once you've made a trip or two or three or more .........

I had lunch with a fellow a couple of years ago who was in the mid-level ranks of "VIA Raildom's" management. He too spoke of the switch to CP trackage ... but I believe as many others do, it ain't gonna happen. Hope so, but more than likely not ......

See ya and thanx again! [tup][tup][:D]

QUOTE: chateauricherPosted: Today, 01:38:20
QUOTE: Originally posted by tomtrain
I would like to learn more about Montreal's commuter rail system. Is all or most of it still electrified? Is most of the Montreal metropolitan area served by these trains? Is the service extensive and well run? Does it connect well with VIA, Amtrak, other transport modes? Thanks for info.

Their web site is located at ... http://www.stcum.qc.ca/English/a-somm.htm

Montreal's metro (subway) and commuter rail systems connect quite well with each other and with inter-city trains and buses.

You can transfer directly from one of the 4 metro lines and two of the 5 of the commuter train lines directly to VIA (and Amtrak service to NYC's Penn Station). Transfers via the metro will get you from the other metro and commuter rail lines to the VIA/Amtrak terminus.

You can transfer to inter-city bus service and the airport shuttle directly from 3 of the 4 metro lines and indirectly by a short trip on the metro from the commuter trains.

[#welcome] to you chateauricher![tup][:D] Been hoping someone with your knowledge and location would climb aboard!

QUOTE: daveklepper Posted: Today, 02:41:56
But where at Central Station are the Deus Montaines trains? I used to see catenary over tracks in Central Station. Is the catenary still over two tracks used by the Deus Monataines trains, or has their platform been relocated away from the VIA trains?[\quuote]

chateauricherPosted: Today, 03:56:05
The Deux-Montagnes and the Mont-Saint-Hilaire (a new one to the south shore) lines terminate at Central Station (linked by tunnel to Bonaventure metro station).

The two lines have platforms at one end of the station, separate from the VIA trains to keep people from "jumping the turnstiles".

As for caternary lines, I can't answer that question as I have not been there in a very long time.[\quote]

OnHarry Posted: Today, 04:38:42
Regarding the St Catherines GO service or rather the potential thereof, I suspect the problem in Hamilton is that so much money and effort was expended to restore the old TH&B station in downtown Hamilton that it would be impossible to go via the CN station, even though that would make sense. The TH&B track east of Hamilton has as steep a grade as the CN west of Dundas so that would be an issue, and there is no quick and easy way for the trains to transfer from Hunter Street Station to the CN mainline.

As to CN reducing their mainline in the Niagara penninsula I don't think it had anything to do with VIa or GO but rather a penny wise pound foolish attitude on the part of CN's current management. They did the same thing from From Komoka west to Sarnia, removing the second mainline and making it single track with passing sidings, when they put in the CTC, at a time when they said they were getting increased business from intermodal service through the new tunnel at Sarnia. Makes no sense to me if you are going out to get more business that you reduce your capacity to handle it .

I have much more to say but have to go to work so will try and post more when I return this afternoon.

James (my real name )

James - no doubt you'll be "hearing" from trolleyboy and Junctionfan![tup][:D]

Appreciate your contributions![tup][:D]
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Time for me to get about my "chores" - oh the life of a retired sailor!

See y'all soon![tup][:D]

Happy Railroading! Siberianmo

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