CANADIAN PASSENGER RAILROADS - Let's talk! BYOB ........

[daveklepper]

But where at Central Station are the Deus Montaines trains? I used to see catenary over tracks in Central Station. Is the catenary still over two tracks used by the Deus Monataines trains, or has their platform been relocated away from the VIA trains?

[chateauricher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomtrain
I would like to learn more about Montreal's commuter rail system. Is all or most of it still electrified? Is most of the Montreal metropolitan area served by these trains? Is the service extensive and well run? Does it connect well with VIA, Amtrak, other transport modes? Thanks for info.

Their web site is located at ... http://www.stcum.qc.ca/English/a-somm.htm

Montreal's metro (subway) and commuter rail systems connect quite well with each other and with inter-city trains and buses.

You can transfer directly from one of the 4 metro lines and two of the 5 of the commuter train lines directly to VIA (and Amtrak service to NYC's Penn Station). Transfers via the metro will get you from the other metro and commuter rail lines to the VIA/Amtrak terminus.

You can transfer to inter-city bus service and the airport shuttle directly from 3 of the 4 metro lines and indirectly by a short trip on the metro from the commuter trains.

[andrewjonathon]

I have just been reading the thread from the last couple of days and found the discussions to be very interesting.

Regarding the service levels on the VIA's Malahat, one needs to keep in the mind the reason the train continues to exist is somewhat controversial and may affect the service offered. VIA planned to discontinued service on this line along with the other gut wrenching cuts VIA made in 1990. However, the provision of train service on Vancouver Island was part of the confederation agreement BC made with the Canadian government in 1870 when it joined Canada and as a result the courts forced VIA to abandon plans to discontinue the Malahat service. While VIA can be required to provide the service, I wonder if it affects the level of service they are provide.

In regards to the discussion about VIA's Canadian and it continued existence, I would make a couple of notes. I think that the fact the Canadian is largely a tourist train will ultimately help to ensure its operation continues in the years to come. It has been primarily a tourist train for many years. However, Canada (especially British Columbia) is well acutely aware of the role tourism plays in the western economy. Even at the time of the 1990 VIA cuts, the arguments made for keeping the Canadian were largely based on its value to tourism. (VIA even operates an office in Japan). Due its value as a tourist train, I believe that it will live outlive the Budd passenger cars when that day eventually comes.

The second reason I believe the Canadian will continue to be supported by the Canadian publie is role the railway played in Canada's creation. Although the Canadian itself doesn't go back that far it continues to be a symbol of the role railways played in creating Canada. Based on the public outcry to the 1990 service cuts, Canadians are proud of that history and want to maintain the historic symbols associated with it.

A few years ago VIA rail started to make noise that they wanted to return the Canadian to its original route on the CPR through the Rockies. They were unable to do so due to a contract they had signed with the Canadian Rocky Mountaineer train company. However, I believe that the contract expires in the next few years and I hope VIA will take the opportunity to move the Canadian back to its original route which really has superior scenery and even a stronger tourist potential.

[siberianmo]

QUOTE: VerMontanan Posted: Today, 16:12:47
Dave states:

"Concour wholeheartedly with your paragraph 1 commentary. We will soon see the end of Amtrak for many of its segments in the U.S. - Oct 1st isn't that far off. Hopefully, VIA Rail will continue on - it isn't what many want it to be - but it sure beats having nothing, as in zip, zero and zilch!"

Actually - it should say, "Tom (Siberianmo) states:"

More in tomorrow's compilation!

G'nite ........

[VerMontanan]

Dave states:

"Concour wholeheartedly with your paragraph 1 commentary. We will soon see the end of Amtrak for many of its segments in the U.S. - Oct 1st isn't that far off. Hopefully, VIA Rail will continue on - it isn't what many want it to be - but it sure beats having nothing, as in zip, zero and zilch!"

There is actually little to suggest that the threat to Amtrak is any greater now than in numerous other years when certain administrations tried to get rid of it. In fact, there appears to be great support for long distance trains from numerous politicians throughout the country and the fight has not really begun in earnest. The only thing I worry about is this administration's disinformation campaign against long distance Amtrak trains. During a speech in Detroit at the end of March, Transportation Secretary Mineta stated, when asked to back up his previous comment that Amtrak runs routes that "nobody" wants to ride, he said, "the problem is if the Empire Builder is going from Seattle to Chicago and it's going through lets say Montana, but there are only 53 people a day using that train service, can I really justify pouring that kind of subsidy into the Empire Builder for a segment of that service?" NARP responded with; "In fiscal 2004, the Empire Builder handled 437,200 passengers, an average 1,195 per day (597 per trip, since there is one eastbound and one westbound train per day). This was 5% above the fiscal 2003 level, and 19% above that of fiscal 2002. In fiscal 2004, boardings and alightings within the state of Montana totaled 129,044 or an average of 353 per day. At the same time, about 100,000 passengers (average 275 per day) traveled all the way across Montana en route between Idaho-west and North Dakota-east points." While it's politically incorrect to use the obvious term "lie" in reference to Mineta's propaganda here, it might be better than otherwise thinking that someone representing the administration is functioning on a level that far outside of reality.

What does this have to do with Canadian passenger trains? Well, while something might be better than nothing, one has to wonder about the utility of the something. While people along the Empire Builder route are already actively protesting the proposed cuts in service (the Montana Senate has already passed a resolution supporting Amtrak service in the state by a 46-4 margin), one wonders what would happen if the Canadian was threatened. The refurbished Budd equipment, while still a treat to ride, is showing its age, and will not last forever. Several trains like the Chaleur, Ocean, and Hudson Bay operate on region shortlines with little (or none in the case of the east end of the Chaleur route) freight service. Canada, like the United States, has no definitive transportation policy, especially with regard to railroads, so the reality is that Canada's trains are not a lot more secure than those in the United States. In the case of the Canadian, if it was ever threatened with discontinuance due to a cost-cutting measure, I would think that its best chance to be saved would be just a general feeling among Canadians that a cross-country trip should be available. But if pressed to show a public need, the Canadian, unlike the Empire Builder, would fail miserably, since proponents would be hard pressed to show where and how the train fills any public need.

Just for the heck of it this morning, I checked at the VIA website as to what a one-way trip from Edmonton to Winnipeg would be in a roomette (single bedroom as VIA calls them) tonight (March 28). The cost was about $635 (Canadian, which is about $521 US at the current rate of exchange). A double bedroom was about $300 more. At the same time (and with the train only about three hours out), I checked the fare to travel on the Empire Builder from Whitefish, Montana to Grand Forks, North Dakota, roughly about the same length of time as the VIA trip. The fare for a single bedroom for one person was $233, less than half the price of the VIA trip (all the bedrooms, formerly deluxe bedrooms were sold out, so their price was not available). While a trip in a VIA roomette is probably more comfortable than one on Amtrak due to restroom facilities in the room if nothing else, another aspect with regard to pinching pennies would be if two people were traveling. On VIA, a roomette is not occupiable by two people so a larger accommodation would be required, and the fare increases to $1271 Canadian. On the Empire Builder, if a second person were to occupy the roomette, which can be done, the cost would only increase by about $100 to travel in the same room.

In summary, my point is that when the Canadian is similarly threatened, where is the support for the train going to come from and are Canadians going to care what the tourists think? At this point, I believe the shortcomings will overwhelm the "experience" of the classic Budd-built equipment, and the strong local support that is currently being displayed along many Amtrak routes today for that service will not be there for the Canadian, a train that local people do not and for many can not use.

[daveklepper]

I am still hoping that Amtrrak's present route structure will be preserved. Of course that is a far cry from what is really required.

But do you understand (sorry this isn't Canada, but the thought might be applicable some day) that Mineta would compromise safety by having a Federal Government rebuilding of the NEC while Amtrak controls operations?

The rebuilding under traffic of Penn Sta. and the NE Corridor electrification extension under traffic were safe because one authority made decisions on both construction and operation. You split the two and you have a real potential for disaster, as did occure as you know in Paddington Station London.

You don't save money by adding another and redundant bureracracy!

[siberianmo]

The groundrules are pretty simple:

Share your thoughts about Canadian passenger railroading - past and present. Let's not bash one another because of differences in opinion and of course, nationalities. Above all - keep politics out of our discussions.

FOR NEWCOMERS: May I suggest that you browse the pages from start to finish? You may find something that will enhance what you are about to post, plus you'll find out "where we've been."

Ladies and Gentlemen, let's talk Canadian passenger trains!

[Anonymous]

An earlier submission by CP2816 (excuse the abbrevation) mentioned Nicolas Morant's beautiful book on the CP. I am a proud owner of the book in addition to his companion volume "Morants Canada" (think I have the title correct) First came across the book in the Entree Gold lounge at the Palliser Hotel in Calgary. From that second on it was a must have!. I have traveled on the back road between Banff and Lake Louise trying to find Morants Curve. Unfortunately a rock slide and its repair have taken out the parking area, so you cannot stop and look there. A recent issue of TRAINS had a great fold out advertising tGeneral Electrics new locomotive on the curve. Not quite the same vantage point as Morant, but still a great photo. I would love to get a copy of Morant's photo of the Canadian at "his" curve, but have heard that the negative is worn out and no more copies can be made. Does anyone know where a copy can be obtained?

[Junctionfan]

To Trolleyboy:

I don't think Trillium can afford something like that unless they get a government grant which I don't think they will apply for because nothing they have done has shown that they are still interested in any kind of passenger service.

As far as the grade is concerned, Trillium can move a large dimensional plus some extra cars with just one S-2 so it can't be too bad. If GO were to do this, 10 cars max plus an F45 should be plenty power. I was actually fortunate to get to experience this in the cab of Trillium's 108. The track at least up the hill, is 136 pound rail which is better than even much of the Grimbsy Sub.

I haven't seen too much track problems but then again, I have been more interested in CN than Trillium since they run more trains for this railfan to see.[:D]

As far as the Canal Sub in general is concerned, the territory is under Rule 105 which says it can't go over 15mph. Big problem for commuter trains trying to make connection. There are spots like East Main Street crossing in Welland where I don't think it would be wise to go over 15mph as nobody there really knows how to not foul the crossing when waiting for a green light. I also believe that Trillium would be required to hire a dispatcher and put up at least OCS signalling which could be rather expensive for a puny little shortline.

As far as the Montrose Sub/ Caso, it also is under Rule 105. Much of the rail has been removed to about near Marineland. CP rarely uses the line anymore except to switch a few industries on the Chippawa Spur at night. I think the Montrose Yard is only used for general storage and serves no industrial support.

If the Jim Bradley and regional council could convince the feds to make the necessary action to secure the running of such venture, I'm sure that Ontario would consider spending at least half. Mind you, trying to get MTO to finni***he darn 406 is like pulling teeth.

[daveklepper]

1. None of us who remember the CN passenger revival about 1965-1970 or the really great das of USA passenger railroading arond 1950 are really happy with either Amtrak or VIA, including the Canadian. But we are happy to have what is available as better than nothing, and people who had ridden the CZ in its best days do tell me the present Canadian is the nearest thing on wheels to it.

2. If you an cobtain complete photographs of the Montreal Central Station when it opened and all during the steam days, you'll find the catenary. All trains running north through the tunnel used box-cab locomotives except the suburban trains which were multiple-unit and still are. However, it is possible that in the last ten years, the station has been remodeled placing the mu suburban Deux Montaine trains (spelling?) in their own isolated station, since their operation is now subsidized by the city and fares are interchangeable with the subway system. This might explain why you don't see catenary any more. When I first visited Montreal, most Central Station platform tracks had catenary. But later only two tracks used by the suburban trains. Diesels did begin running throught the tunnel pretty early/ And some of the box cabs were retained to run suburban trains with old cleristory roof steel cars as suburban business grew and maintenance on the orginial mu equipment required a better spares-to-operating ratio. I understand they now have new mu's.

[trolleyboy]

QUOTE: Thanks for the response.

As far as the single tracking between Grimsby and Jordon, CN shot themselves in the foot over that one. They have terrible time with meets because everything pretty much runs all at once because when CSX can release CN trains from Frontier Yard and then of course CN MacMillan Yard too. Morning and early afternoon is usually the hot times for that.

I think the major issue other than that is the canal. Having the canal is great for anything but the railroad and anything associated with trains particularly during the busy shipping seasons. I always believed that it could be solved if GO ran up Trillium's Canal line between Merriton in St.Catharines to Dain City and travel onto CP Hamilton Sub and head up on the old CASO/ CP line toward Niagara Falls. Then I thought (no that takes to long) so then I thought that if Trillium ran a couple of RDCs (or someone) between St.Catharines station and the casinos, it might work. The GO train for us would run between Aldershot and St.Catharines.

VIA is great but they don't run on great times. I could take a train between St.Catharines in the Morning, get off at Aldershot, take 73 I believe to London but when I get back from London to Aldershot, 95 has long gone. There isn't a night train/s anymore which is really dumb. There isn't any Toronto bound train in the afternoon either. If I want to go to Toronto by train, I have to wait for Amtrak to come at 6:30pm if he comes at all often getting held in customs for an eternity. No wonder ridership is stagnent. However taking the train involving the Dundas and Kingston Subdivisions, you have no problems at all. Even though Niagara Falls is a big tourist place and St.Catharines has tons of folks that work in Oakville and Toronto and we are supposed to be apart of the Windsor Corridor, we get squat for rail service. Go figure.

Just wondering have you suggested this to anyone at Trillum. I know a few of the people that work there and though they are a little backward and laid back they may be interested in a scheme like that/ I'm sure that used RDC cars would go for a fairly low price nowadays. The hill along lock seven's a bit steep one of the worst in eastern canada.Remembering that this was a helperdistrict during the days of steam and early deisel. A side bar a good modelling friend of mine's dad used to own Lamco diecasting (a long the rail line in thorold) His dad has told many a tale of slipping Mikes and mountains struggling to get a twenty car train up that grade. They used to live in an apartment above the plant to this day Mikes dad's not much of a train fan. I imaginr the right word said in the right ears could get a plan like this a least discussed. I'm sure if the casino's thought that they would get a lot more business from rail service that they would jump at a chance like this.You would need some hefty right of way improvement though CN hasn't sunk any money into the canal sub and Trillium only fixes whats absolutly rotten. Insureance co's would want bullet proof trackage if a passenger route was to be attempted.I'm wondering is the Caso's ownership issues been delt with yet or is it still in limbo between CN/CP. Rob

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by enr2099

QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpe

Glad to see the Malahat get at least a little civilized. My family and I rode it RT Victoria-Courtenay about 7-8 years ago. Despite the great scenery, train was decidedly third world. No advanced notice regarding food or drink. Nothing available on the train or at any of the completely boarded-up stations--not even water or a soft drink machine.

The snack waggon that meets the train at Nanaimo isn't always there, many times if you ride on the weekend there's no snack truck. I wouldn't say there was no advanced notice on food or drink as it's printed in the timetables, every timetable printed by VIA since they took over the service from CP that there is no food or drink service.

I have found though, that it has only been since RailAmerica took over the E&N, that customer service has improved on the passenger train. Not to mention that also since CP no longer does the maintenace of the cars, Herzog maintains the RDC's now, the cars are generally in better shape both inside and out.

QUOTE:
I never understood why they kept the doors locked between the two cars (both were being used). Maybe one of you Canadians knows, eh??

The other car may have been chartered for a tour group but the conductor most of the time leaves the doors unlocked so that he can go back and forth between the cars. Most of the time they are left wide open to allow easy movement between the cars.

..........

Actually, your account of the trip you took with your son sounds like it was an adventure and something many rail fans would envy! From the best of RDC experiences to those that are in the category you described - they still bring back many fond memories. So what's wrong with a quick trip to the "Quick Trip"?

Would have loved to have had a TT to look at. Didn't have one, and the VIA agent at Vancouver where I bought the tickets apparently didn't think it was necessary to tell us there wasn't any liquid on board or any facilities at any of the stations where we could get some. Had we known, we would have packed a lunch and drinks.

As to being an adventure-- it would have been, except I also had my wife and 8-9 year old daughter on board, and they aren't particularly adventurous in that sense. Try dealing with a thirsty, hungry little child all day.

Sort of like what flying has become........[banghead][banghead][banghead]

As to the door--no tour groups or charters. Just a standard revenue run. They were loading and unloading off both cars. Made no sense to me at all.

Glad it's gotten better--that run is made for tourism.

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trolleyboy

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Does anybody know if GO transit plans to extend to St.Catharines anytime soon?

Hello, no i haven't heard anything yet. I know being an ex St Catharines boy myself that go service to the peninsula hays been on the public wish list for years. I was kind of hoping that when the falls added the second casino that we might get our wish. From my understanding other than the usual gov. foot dragging there were two minor reasons as to why the trains hadn't been added yet.#1 CN had removed a couple of switches near grimsby on the grimby sub so there was not a direct double mainline all the way into St Kitts anymore(and easy remedy} one wonders if it was done just to keep the commutor traffic off the line?#2 The Hamilton go trains aren't full or full train service and since they run up CP to the old TH&B station CN claims it makes it difficult to schedule(sounds some what fishy to me) I suppose money is a consideration as well Go would have to likely buy more locos and rolling stock if it were to be a full service line like their lakeshore service.I;m wondering if crewing is a problem as well,my understanding is that all of go's train crews are CP personel might be a rules issue.I suppose we just need to keep pestering the local MPP's flood their e-mail inboxes and snail mail boxes maybe they'll listen. Of coarse that's likely my rose coloured glasses looking at the situ. again. It's kind of like my Brantford situation before I moved here they experimented with Go service but they had all sorts of issues on the Dundas subs hills so we've reverted back to VIA service and have ten trains a day stopping in Brantford weekdays four on holidays and weekends.The service is a bit more expensive than Go but has a better on time record than the Go experiment did.Too bad St Catharines VIA service is all but non existant. Perhaps if there was better ridership there them getting go into the peninsula might be concidered more seriously. Of coarse someone at VIA and CN need to commit to giving VIA service to your neck of the woods more priority and more trains. Just a thought. I know bring back an LRV version of the NS&T maybe connect to Oakville then Go to TO and beyond. Nah that's just crazy talk. Rob

Thanks for the response.

As far as the single tracking between Grimsby and Jordon, CN shot themselves in the foot over that one. They have terrible time with meets because everything pretty much runs all at once because when CSX can release CN trains from Frontier Yard and then of course CN MacMillan Yard too. Morning and early afternoon is usually the hot times for that.

I think the major issue other than that is the canal. Having the canal is great for anything but the railroad and anything associated with trains particularly during the busy shipping seasons. I always believed that it could be solved if GO ran up Trillium's Canal line between Merriton in St.Catharines to Dain City and travel onto CP Hamilton Sub and head up on the old CASO/ CP line toward Niagara Falls. Then I thought (no that takes to long) so then I thought that if Trillium ran a couple of RDCs (or someone) between St.Catharines station and the casinos, it might work. The GO train for us would run between Aldershot and St.Catharines.

VIA is great but they don't run on great times. I could take a train between St.Catharines in the Morning, get off at Aldershot, take 73 I believe to London but when I get back from London to Aldershot, 95 has long gone. There isn't a night train/s anymore which is really dumb. There isn't any Toronto bound train in the afternoon either. If I want to go to Toronto by train, I have to wait for Amtrak to come at 6:30pm if he comes at all often getting held in customs for an eternity. No wonder ridership is stagnent. However taking the train involving the Dundas and Kingston Subdivisions, you have no problems at all. Even though Niagara Falls is a big tourist place and St.Catharines has tons of folks that work in Oakville and Toronto and we are supposed to be apart of the Windsor Corridor, we get squat for rail service. Go figure.

[siberianmo]

QUOTE: The groundrules are pretty simple:

Share your thoughts about Canadian passenger railroading - past and present. Let's not bash one another because of differences in opinion and of course, nationalities. Above all - keep politics out of our discussions.

FOR NEWCOMERS: May I suggest that you browse the pages from start to finish? You may find something that will enhance what you are about to post, plus you'll find out "where we've been."

Ladies and Gentlemen, let's talk Canadian passenger trains!

=================================================
Happy Easter to those who share this fine day! Good morning to all!

I didn't know what to expect this morning when first opening up the site ....
but things appear to be still perking .... good news! We are approaching one month with this discussion ...... Let's get to it![tup]

QUOTE: tatans Posted: 26 Mar 2005, 14:17:57
Must agree with Vermont"guy" about the present ' Canadian" : empty stations, tri-weekly, sleeping car rates for millionaires, and "real" people travelling somewhere ,as opposed to strictly a sightseeing adventures. I wanted to travel down east untilI found the price I could have gone to Uzbekistan. Now I guess I was very lucky to have been able to travel years back on the same train in it's heydey, but it's over folks. seems I will have to travel over the border to Rugby and get on a real train.

The comments I made in my recent post on this subject ( 26 Mar 2005, 16:08:35 A response is in order ....... to VerMontanan) remain as my opinion.

The prices are horrendus, for bedrooms. I cannot and will not debate or defend that point. Supply and demand rules the day along with a long line of those who can and will pony up.

I'm not sure a trip to Uzbekistan would do much for my sightseeing urges ... but to each his own.[:D]

To me it is quite simple - the train has beautiful passenger cars and lots people from ALL walks of life - everyone is not a millionaire or even close to being one. Many are retired and have planned and saved for their rail trip of "their dreams" - that's us. Others have finally managed to save up enough to experience the chance of riding a train of "yesterday." This train is as real as it gets as far as I'm concerned ...... it just isn't what everyone expects it to be.

Just love the "Canadian" and as long as it runs on a schedule, and there's money available, we'll book it.[:D]

Appreciate your opinion![tup][:)]

QUOTE: drephpe Posted: 26 Mar 2005, 18:27:16
Glad to see the Malahat get at least a little civilized. My family and I rode it RT Victoria-Courtenay about 7-8 years ago. Despite the great scenery, train was decidedly third world. No advanced notice regarding food or drink. Nothing available on the train or at any of the completely boarded-up stations--not even water or a soft drink machine. Fortunately, the crew let me and my son (about 11 or 12), along with one other passenger, get off and literally run to a grocery store several blocks away in Courtenay to get sandwiches and some drinks, and they held the train for us to get back. It was obvious they were very familiar with the problem, were gracious to accommodate, and didn't like the situation one bit. At least the truck can get some relief to the pax.

I never understood why they kept the doors locked between the two cars (both were being used). Maybe one of you Canadians knows, eh??

In contrast, even though it was tourist, BC Rail's Royal Hudson operation, which we also rode that trip, was outstanding. I'm sure that's missed.

Despite VIA, I've never heard anything even resembling bad about The Canadian. Would love to sample it someday, when I become a billionaire so I can afford the fare.

[#welcome] to you drephpe![tup][:D]

Actually, your account of the trip you took with your son sounds like it was an adventure and something many rail fans would envy! From the best of RDC experiences to those that are in the category you described - they still bring back many fond memories. So what's wrong with a quick trip to the "Quick Trip"?[:)]

I'm not sure what you mean regarding "Despite VIA," but suffice it to say - WITHOUT VIA Rail, there would be no "Canadian" running today. Once the equipment goes (Budd stainless steel cars) that's when the "Canadian" will surely die - my opinion, of course.

Thanx for your input and hope to "see" you again.[tup][:D]

QUOTE: passengerfan Posted: 26 Mar 2005, 20:22:55
I have to bring a little more information on the CN Turbos to this forum. The trains were slow accelerating to sixty but they were fast beyond. the ride was surprisingly comfortable and sideways motion was practically non existant. The crews were excellent and bid this job by seniority and all had whiskers who were assigned to the Turbos. I was fortunate to always ride Turbo club and was always in the first class dome going to Montreeal it was the lead with the engineer and returning from Montreal was always the trailing Turbo dome. Clean quiet and Comfortable was a good description of the Turbos and even though when riding in the Turbo dome you were riding directly above the Pratt & Whitney Turbines they were much quieter than any diesel. And remember as long as one turbine was operating to supply hotel power they could open the clkam shell doors at couple a diesel to the train for power. Its to bad they did not give the turbos more time they were popul;ar with passengers when in service. Personally I liked them better in the CN wjhite with Black and Orange scheme than the VIA yellow with Blue Bic Banana scheme.

Appreciate the additional info on the Turbo train .....

My travels within trains equipped with domes have been restricted to the Santa Fe Chief (don't recall which one .... I was about 7 or 8) - Amtrak and VIA Rail. Haven't "met" a dome I didn't like! What a great way to travel. Insofar as livery is concerned - can't see it from the inside! But seriously, as long as the paint scheme matches all the way - from the loco's to the last car - to me that's what "flicks my switch."

As a child, I can still remember seeing all of those wonderful passenger trains lined up at NYC's Penn Station and Grand Central - so many different railroads and so many, many opportunities for rail travel - of course to Canada! Ahhhhhhh [tup]

Thanx for your continuing and descriptive contributions![tup][tup]

QUOTE: trolleyboy Posted: 26 Mar 2005, 23:46:47[PARTIALLY QUOTED]
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Does anybody know if GO transit plans to extend to St.Catharines anytime soon?
---------------------------------------
Hello, no i haven't heard anything yet. I know being an ex St Catharines boy myself that go service to the peninsula hays been on the public wish list for years. I was kind of hoping that when the falls added the second casino that we might get our wish. .......... we've reverted back to VIA service and have ten trains a day stopping in Brantford weekdays four on holidays and weekends.The service is a bit more expensive than Go but has a better on time record than the Go experiment did.Too bad St Catharines VIA service is all but non existant. .......... Just a thought. I know bring back an LRV version of the NS&T maybe connect to Oakville then Go to TO and beyond. Nah that's just crazy talk. Rob

Thanx for the response and commentary, Rob! [tup] Crazy talk? No, perhaps too visionary for those who can make things happen, but won't.

See ya and thanx for your continuing participation![tup][tup][:D]

QUOTE: enr2099 Posted: Today, 01:32:16 [PARTIALLY QUOTED]

The snack waggon that meets the train at Nanaimo isn't always there, many times if you ride on the weekend there's no snack truck. I wouldn't say there was no advanced notice on food or drink as it's printed in the timetables, every timetable printed by VIA since they took over the service from CP that there is no food or drink service.

I have found though, that it has only been since RailAmerica took over the E&N, that customer service has improved on the passenger train. Not to mention that also since CP no longer does the maintenace of the cars, Herzog maintains the RDC's now, the cars are generally in better shape both inside and out.
---------------------------------
QUOTE:
I never understood why they kept the doors locked between the two cars (both were being used). Maybe one of you Canadians knows, eh??
--------------------------------
The other car may have been chartered for a tour group but the conductor most of the time leaves the doors unlocked so that he can go back and forth between the cars. Most of the time they are left wide open to allow easy movement between the cars.

Thanx, Tyler, for your input ...... as has been stated several times throughout this topic, there's lots of interest in VIA Rail's "Malahat." [tup][tup][:D]
================================================

Well, it's nearly NOON! Gotta get going.

See ya soon. [tup][:D]

Tom in Chesterfield, MO, USA (Siberianmo)

[VerMontanan]

Tom,

I do appreciate your point of view with the Canadian. My pointing out its shortcomings is just something that I think needs to be brought to light if we're discussing all aspects of Canadian passenger trains. I've personally lined up travel on the Canadian for several groups of friends that want a unique travel experience, and they've all loved it, as have I. As someone who is not Canadian, however, I can't really speak for the kind of transcontinental service that should be offered in Canada. If Canadians are happy with this level of service, then that's the way it should be. However, I know as an American, a similar level of service along the route of the Empire Builder and many other routes in the United States would not be supported.

One last comment, though, just to put the utility of service offered by today's "Canadian" in its proper context: When you say, "I should add that the reason coaches are included in the consist for VIA Rail's "Canadian" is precisely for those who are making a journey between stops along the route. Those are the folks you will be observing getting on and off at the lesser known stations in the Provinces - not all nor always, but most of the time," this needs to be clarified. In each issue of the Canadian railroad magazine "Branchline" there is a "selection of passenger consists." To be accurate, in the winter, your term "coaches" should be replaced with "coach". Yes, that's right. One coach for a train operating from Toronto to Vancouver with, I believe, 62 seats. Of course, the same train can have four to eight sleeping cars so I'm not suggesting the there is no one on the train. Still, when one compares (during this season) 62 seats three times a week being offered through Melville, Saskatchewan to the 225 or so daily seats offered by Amtrak through Williston, North Dakota, it does show that indeed these are two vastly different services.

As for my moniker, used in this forum, it does reflect my two favorite states (one of which I am a native), and I'll just say that both are truly the "Essence of Texaslessness" in reference to where I now reside.

--Mark

[enr2099]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpe

Glad to see the Malahat get at least a little civilized. My family and I rode it RT Victoria-Courtenay about 7-8 years ago. Despite the great scenery, train was decidedly third world. No advanced notice regarding food or drink. Nothing available on the train or at any of the completely boarded-up stations--not even water or a soft drink machine.

The snack waggon that meets the train at Nanaimo isn't always there, many times if you ride on the weekend there's no snack truck. I wouldn't say there was no advanced notice on food or drink as it's printed in the timetables, every timetable printed by VIA since they took over the service from CP that there is no food or drink service.

I have found though, that it has only been since RailAmerica took over the E&N, that customer service has improved on the passenger train. Not to mention that also since CP no longer does the maintenace of the cars, Herzog maintains the RDC's now, the cars are generally in better shape both inside and out.

QUOTE:
I never understood why they kept the doors locked between the two cars (both were being used). Maybe one of you Canadians knows, eh??

The other car may have been chartered for a tour group but the conductor most of the time leaves the doors unlocked so that he can go back and forth between the cars. Most of the time they are left wide open to allow easy movement between the cars.

[trolleyboy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Does anybody know if GO transit plans to extend to St.Catharines anytime soon?

Hello, no i haven't heard anything yet. I know being an ex St Catharines boy myself that go service to the peninsula hays been on the public wish list for years. I was kind of hoping that when the falls added the second casino that we might get our wish. From my understanding other than the usual gov. foot dragging there were two minor reasons as to why the trains hadn't been added yet.#1 CN had removed a couple of switches near grimsby on the grimby sub so there was not a direct double mainline all the way into St Kitts anymore(and easy remedy} one wonders if it was done just to keep the commutor traffic off the line?#2 The Hamilton go trains aren't full or full train service and since they run up CP to the old TH&B station CN claims it makes it difficult to schedule(sounds some what fishy to me) I suppose money is a consideration as well Go would have to likely buy more locos and rolling stock if it were to be a full service line like their lakeshore service.I;m wondering if crewing is a problem as well,my understanding is that all of go's train crews are CP personel might be a rules issue.I suppose we just need to keep pestering the local MPP's flood their e-mail inboxes and snail mail boxes maybe they'll listen. Of coarse that's likely my rose coloured glasses looking at the situ. again. It's kind of like my Brantford situation before I moved here they experimented with Go service but they had all sorts of issues on the Dundas subs hills so we've reverted back to VIA service and have ten trains a day stopping in Brantford weekdays four on holidays and weekends.The service is a bit more expensive than Go but has a better on time record than the Go experiment did.Too bad St Catharines VIA service is all but non existant. Perhaps if there was better ridership there them getting go into the peninsula might be concidered more seriously. Of coarse someone at VIA and CN need to commit to giving VIA service to your neck of the woods more priority and more trains. Just a thought. I know bring back an LRV version of the NS&T maybe connect to Oakville then Go to TO and beyond. Nah that's just crazy talk. Rob

[passengerfan]

I have to bring a little more information on the CN Turbos to this forum. The trains were slow accelerating to sixty but they were fast beyond. the ride was surprisingly comfortable and sideways motion was practically non existant. The crews were excellent and bid this job by seniority and all had whiskers who were assigned to the Turbos. I was fortunate to always ride Turbo club and was always in the first class dome going to Montreeal it was the lead with the engineer and returning from Montreal was always the trailing Turbo dome. Clean quiet and Comfortable was a good description of the Turbos and even though when riding in the Turbo dome you were riding directly above the Pratt & Whitney Turbines they were much quieter than any diesel. And remember as long as one turbine was operating to supply hotel power they could open the clkam shell doors at couple a diesel to the train for power. Its to bad they did not give the turbos more time they were popul;ar with passengers when in service. Personally I liked them better in the CN wjhite with Black and Orange scheme than the VIA yellow with Blue Bic Banana scheme.

[Anonymous]

Glad to see the Malahat get at least a little civilized. My family and I rode it RT Victoria-Courtenay about 7-8 years ago. Despite the great scenery, train was decidedly third world. No advanced notice regarding food or drink. Nothing available on the train or at any of the completely boarded-up stations--not even water or a soft drink machine. Fortunately, the crew let me and my son (about 11 or 12), along with one other passenger, get off and literally run to a grocery store several blocks away in Courtenay to get sandwiches and some drinks, and they held the train for us to get back. It was obvious they were very familiar with the problem, were gracious to accommodate, and didn't like the situation one bit. At least the truck can get some relief to the pax.

I never understood why they kept the doors locked between the two cars (both were being used). Maybe one of you Canadians knows, eh??

In contrast, even though it was tourist, BC Rail's Royal Hudson operation, which we also rode that trip, was outstanding. I'm sure that's missed.

Despite VIA, I've never heard anything even resembling bad about The Canadian. Would love to sample it someday, when I become a billionaire so I can afford the fare.

[siberianmo]

[soapbox]A response is in order .......

QUOTE: VerMontanan Posted: Today, 13:54:41
Tom wrote:
"However, nothing can match those Budd stainless steel beauties - nothing! So, Amtrak's "Empire Builder" of today may very well be in the every day operation of transporting people from place to place, but VIA Rail "wins" hands down when it comes to providing the REAL railroading experience for those of us who care about what passenger rail travel should be (and I'm sure you do!)."

Tom,
I do care about passenger rail travel, and that's why I would agree and disagree with you. I would agree with regard to the "Budd stainless steel beauties" providing a "real" railroading experience, but NOT in the instance of the Canadian. The best such experience would be on the Chaleur (and Ocean on trips when it still has that equipment). Unlike the Canadian, these are real trains with mostly local traffic. In these cases, you have the combination of providing a much-used public service and equipment that provides a great travel experience. While "cruise" and tourist trains do prove that traveling by rail is very comfortable and a great way to experience scenery, I believe that too many people associate these aspects with the only reason long distance trains should exist. When I consider "what rail passenger travel should be", especially with regard to long distance service it should NOT be route with few staffed stations, it should NOT be a route where unstaffed stations have no station facilities, it should NOT be a route that operates tri-weekly, it should NOT be a route where sleeping car rates are beyond the means of many people, it should NOT be a route where most of the stops have a restriction requiring a 48-hour notice on a tri-weekly schedule. When I'm traveling the Empire Builder, and it stops at the station at Rugby, North Dakota (still a staffed station that has won Amtrak's "station of the year" award in the past) and local people, not necessarily tourists enroute to the doctor in Seattle or college in the Twin Cities, this, to me, is the REAL railroading experience because in the end, it's all about people and nothing about equipment. But, since this thread is about Canadian passenger trains, I'll add that trains like the Hudson Bay, Chaleur, and services operated by Algoma Central (now CN), Ontario Northland, and Quebec North Shore and Labrador still operate for the people along the route to use.
--Mark

Mark (aka: VerMontanan} I do think you are preaching to the choir - and I'm one of the singers.

As indicated several times on these pages, I am a "regular" rider of the "Ocean" between Montreal and Halifax and have been for 15 years. So, there is no doubt which is a "real" passenger train, "Canadian" or "Ocean."

Economics, my friend, runs the railroads - plain and simple. Unstaffed stations, with little or no services, is what the traveling public in both countries must accept when it comes to the subsidized operations of VIA Rail and Amtrak. In my state, WE fund the intra-Missouri Amtrak trains - but alas, many of our stations are now unstaffed. Costs coupled with demand for tickets makes it that way. We consider our "Missouri Mules" real trains, in spite of the economics of the day.

This is not a debate regarding whether Amtrak's "Empire Builder" is a better passenger train, it is a discussion based on respective experiences and observations of whether VIA Rail's "Canadian" brings more smiles to the faces of those who travel aboard it in comparison to any other passenger train, including those "tourist-traps" running in North America.

It appears to me that we both may be locked in the past and for that there is a price to pay. It is called reality - ain't coming back. So, with that in mind, I'll take the "Canadian" and be happy that it is still running with the equipment I enjoy so much. When that Budd stainless steel equipment is on the line, I really don't care what the name of the train is - I just want to be aboard![:D]

VIA Rail's "Canadian" is perhaps a hybrid by any other name - a cross between what many of us remember as a regularly scheduled passenger train and today's excursion trains. It's been made that way for one reason - dollars. Try to book the triple bedroom in the Park Car (drawing room) and you will quickly find out that unless you start your planning nearly a year in advance, it is a hard to get room. Popular for the tourist trade - which includes my wife and I - since that is what we are doing. However, we are experiencing travel on a scheduled passenger train that does accommodate the general public. One will not find that aboard the "Rocky Mountaineer," etc.

I cannot control what decisions others make regarding their choices of travel - mine will be in favor of passenger rail when it comes to having fun. When it comes to getting there - ah ha - then the airplane (depending on distance) or my car will take priority. I wish it were different - but that's life.

I should add that the reason coaches are included in the consist for VIA Rail's "Canadian" is precisely for those who are making a journey between stops along the route. Those are the folks you will be observing getting on and off at the lesser known stations in the Provinces - not all nor always, but most of the time.

Appreciate the spirited response and hope you respect mine.[:D]

Keep contributing - that's why this topic was created![tup]

By the way - your handle of "VerMontanan" - do we take it to mean you have a connection with two states, but currently live in Montana?

See ya!

Tom in Chesterfield, MO (Siberianmo)

[tatans]

Must agree with Vermont"guy" about the present ' Canadian" : empty stations, tri-weekly, sleeping car rates for millionaires, and "real" people travelling somewhere ,as opposed to strictly a sightseeing adventures. I wanted to travel down east untilI found the price I could have gone to Uzbekistan. Now I guess I was very lucky to have been able to travel years back on the same train in it's heydey, but it's over folks. seems I will have to travel over the border to Rugby and get on a real train.

[VerMontanan]

Tom wrote:
"However, nothing can match those Budd stainless steel beauties - nothing! So, Amtrak's "Empire Builder" of today may very well be in the every day operation of transporting people from place to place, but VIA Rail "wins" hands down when it comes to providing the REAL railroading experience for those of us who care about what passenger rail travel should be (and I'm sure you do!)."

Tom,
I do care about passenger rail travel, and that's why I would agree and disagree with you. I would agree with regard to the "Budd stainless steel beauties" providing a "real" railroading experience, but NOT in the instance of the Canadian. The best such experience would be on the Chaleur (and Ocean on trips when it still has that equipment). Unlike the Canadian, these are real trains with mostly local traffic. In these cases, you have the combination of providing a much-used public service and equipment that provides a great travel experience. While "cruise" and tourist trains do prove that traveling by rail is very comfortable and a great way to experience scenery, I believe that too many people associate these aspects with the only reason long distance trains should exist. When I consider "what rail passenger travel should be", especially with regard to long distance service it should NOT be route with few staffed stations, it should NOT be a route where unstaffed stations have no station facilities, it should NOT be a route that operates tri-weekly, it should NOT be a route where sleeping car rates are beyond the means of many people, it should NOT be a route where most of the stops have a restriction requiring a 48-hour notice on a tri-weekly schedule. When I'm traveling the Empire Builder, and it stops at the station at Rugby, North Dakota (still a staffed station that has won Amtrak's "station of the year" award in the past) and local people, not necessarily tourists enroute to the doctor in Seattle or college in the Twin Cities, this, to me, is the REAL railroading experience because in the end, it's all about people and nothing about equipment. But, since this thread is about Canadian passenger trains, I'll add that trains like the Hudson Bay, Chaleur, and services operated by Algoma Central (now CN), Ontario Northland, and Quebec North Shore and Labrador still operate for the people along the route to use.
--Mark

[Junctionfan]

Well I think VIA will use theirs for some time. I don't see them making any effort to increase the P-42 fleet unfortunately.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by siberianmo


I have a copy of the Special Issue of Classic Trains in front of me. The cover features "The Canadian" in maroon/grey livery with the beaver herald. The story inside is good reading and provides lots of insight with regard to the history of this fine train. Run - don't walk - to your local hobby shop (LHS as so many like to point out) and get one before they are all gone.

About the only thing I found 'wrong' with the story is one picture of CP Rail's version of "The Canadian" at Moran'ts Curve. That "action red" just doesn't do it for me - I prefer the original colors every time. Other than that - well worth the money for the issue.

See you again? Hope so![:D][tup]

I got that issue when it first came out. Reading that article is what inspired me to take to Canadian this summer and go from dreaming to doing. I definetly agree with you on what paint scheme looks best! I've always prefered CP's old maroon and grey, although I don't really mind action red either. It's too bad that they don't still have F units pulling the Canadian. Still, I suppose that F40PH's are becoming something of a rarity themselves on North American railways, as Amtrak retired all of there's a couple years ago.

[siberianmo]

QUOTE: The groundrules are pretty simple:

Share your thoughts about Canadian passenger railroading - past and present. Let's not bash one another because of differences in opinion and of course, nationalities. Above all - keep politics out of our discussions.

FOR NEWCOMERS: May I suggest that you browse the pages from start to finish? You may find something that will enhance what you are about to post, plus you'll find out "where we've been."

Ladies and Gentlemen, let's talk Canadian passenger trains!

=====================================================
Good Morning! Not only have we turned a page, but we've added some new contributors![tup][tup][tup] Way to go![:D]

Let's get right to it ........

QUOTE: CANADIANPACIFIC2816 Posted: 25 Mar 2005, 12:30:38
An excellent source of information about the passenger trains of the Canadian Pacific Railway can be found in "Nicholas Morant's Canadian Pacific" by J.F. Garden. Nicholas Morant was the CPR's official publicity photographer for more than 40 years and his work is absolutely gorgeous! I would love to see a bunch of us guys who have an interest in the CPR form a Canadian Pacific historical society, and as far as I know, no such organization currently exists. If I am wrong, I would hope that one of our Canadian bretheren would tell me so.

[#welcome] to you CANADIANPACIFIC2816! [tup][:D]
Appreciate the info on J.F. Garden's book ....... I have a great print of Morant's Curve in winter with CP's "The Canadian" decked out in maroon/grey livery - hanging in our living room. It was a birthday present to me from my bride shortly after a visit to Vancouver. We had stopped in one of several shops and I just couldn't get enough of that picture. She wound up having it shipped to me ...... Wonderful gift!

I did a "search" but didn't come up with anything specifically designed for the CPR and historical society. Anyone know?? There are numerous railroad historical societies with a focus on Canadian railroading - perhaps a bit of "networking" would help ........

Hope to "see" you again![tup]

QUOTE: enr2099 Posted: 25 Mar 2005, 12:40:13 [ PARTIALLY QUOTED]
The Budds are actually based out of Victoria. They usually run down to the station about 15 minutes prior to departure.

Crews are based in Nanaimo now and run 3 days on, 3 days off alternating on Sundays. Still held by the guys with the most seniority, Nick Morris, the conductor that works Mon-Wed has been with the railway since 1978.

I'd like to point out for those who don't know, the E&N run the trains for VIA, and supply the crews. They seem to have solved the problems with 6148 as it's running fine now. There are only two operational cars, VIA would rather sell out then add a third car as it would require a second conductor. Although they have run three car trains in the past.

The VIA agents in Victoria recommends you pack a lunch as the snack waggon isn't always there. If it is, do what I do, stock up for the rest of the trip :D . There is also a small coffee shop in the Courtenay station that is run by a local charity, and they usually have the BBQ going when the weather is nice, you can get coffee, burgers, pop, hotdogs, etc. by donation. The snack truck has some good sandwiches and quite a selection of soft drinks(Pepsi and Coke brands). Most people ride to Qualicum Beach and go for lunch while the train runs to Courtenay and have 2 hours before it returns heading south.

The E&N crews are great and will go out of their way to make sure you have a good trip.

Since at least 1999, Transport Canada put an end to the cabrides on the E&N Budd Cars after several collisions that ended up hurting passengers riding up front with the engineer, the engineer has to be able to RUN if a collision is imanent. . Depending on the conductor, you can still ride in the rear cab. But they're trying to stop passengers from riding in the rear cab as they think a cigarette thrown from the train by a passenger smoking in the rear cab caused the Green Lake Trestle fire.
--------------------
Tyler Welsford

[#welcome] to you enr2099/Tyler! [tup][:D]

Thanx for the additional information regarding the RDC's and VIA Rail's "Malahat" on Vancouver Island. For anyone who has never experienced travel aboard these fine Budd manufactured self-powered cars, it's a "must"!

Stick around, Tyler, and we look forward to "seeing" you again![tup][:D]

QUOTE: selector Posted: 25 Mar 2005, 12:57:13 Siberianmo, I have been mostly off line doing gardening, house work, finishing touches on layout (biggest was painting river and lake bottoms and edges, and then pouring the 'water').

Just got a Super Emprie Builder and now have to acquire a power supply...grrrr!

Picked up one of two daughters who live in Ottawa at the ferry in Nanaimo, and she exclaimed, (quote) Holy crap! (unquote) when she saw the layout. I guess it must be something.

I'm in and out here, but I do try to keep up.

For the others, thanks for keeping this alive. I know you've made Tom's month.

Lang may yer lum reek.

Crandell - Nice "hearing" from you again - this time, I note, was a bit closer to the topic![:D] From all we've been reading about the RDC's on Vancouver Island, let's hope they are still in opeation by the time we make our rendezvous!

Oh yes, "Holy crap" could be translated as you indicated. Why not post some of your layout pictures over on the Model Railroading - General Discussion - "Coffee Shop" thread? No doubt you'd get some "Holy crap" responses!

Best to you![tup][tup][:)]

QUOTE: Grinandbearit Posted: 25 Mar 2005, 20:42:01
The Montreal-Deux Montagnes is still electrified but using Bombardier MU motors and trailers. I don't know whether they are still operated by CN crews but I doubt it. Apparently ridership on the line has increased to the point that it's hard to find space on the cars at intermediate stops on the way in to Central station.

Hey! Haven't "seen" you for some time ....... appreciate you stopping in.

Perhaps this will shed some light on the subject. I repeat, though, if electric motive power is used within Montreal's Central Station, I'm wondering where .....? Never seen it in operation over the span of years I've traveled through there. That's not to say there isn't a platform to handle such consists - but it (they) must be separated out from the main trackage.

Pictures - that's what we need!

Thanx![tup][:)]

QUOTE: VerMontanan Posted: 25 Mar 2005, 23:13:27
I've traveled quite a bit on Canadian Railways over the years. Just about all the trips have been memorable...there are just so many great trips available even today, though highly diminished from years past. Certainly some of my favorites include the Chaleur, the Hudson Bay, the Algoma Central Hearst train, and Quebec North Shore and Labrador.

Probably the most memorable was in 2002 aboard the Canadian, and not for the reason most people remember riding the Canadian like scenery, service, equipment, or food though they were all great.

I was invited along with various family members to celebrate their matriarch's 95th birthday, which would actually occur that following winter (but summer seemed like a better time to do this, especially with someone coming up on 95 years young). Since she was like "my other Mom," I jumped at the chance to join the group. The rail portion of the trip actually started for me when I boarded the westbound Empire Builder in St. Paul, Minnesota. The next day, the birthday lady (who lived in Glendive, Montana) and her son (a resident of Havre) boarded the same train in Wolf Point, Montana. At Whitefish, Montana a daughter and spouse boarded and at Spokane, Washington another daughter and son-in-law got aboard the Empire Builder. We all rode to Seattle where we spent the evening. The next morning, we rode the Amtrak Cascades service to Vancouver, BC where we had almost six hours to wait until the departure of VIA train 2, the Canadian, which we would ride to Winnipeg. During our layover in Vancouver, I had arranged for a charter tour company (Blue Mountain Tours) to give us a quickie tour of Vancouver.

After the bus tour, we returned to the Vancouver VIA station where we had our first encounter with VIA personnel that would be uniformly pleasant and helpful for our entire trip. And of course when they found out the purpose of our trip, we became somewhat like celebreties, since even pushing 95, Eileen was a joy to be around, and touched all those she encountered. We departed Vancouver at 530 PM on June 30, 2002.

I like to plan things well in advance, and I agonized over how to make this trip even more special than it was given those accompanying the birthday girl and the circumstances. When I realized that we would be passing through Jasper on July 1 - Canada Day, and that the train is due to spend well over an hour there....I had an idea. About two weeks prior to the trip, I called a local bakery in Jasper, Alberta, and ordered a birthday cake to be delivered to the train. It would be in celebration of our trip in honor of Eileen's 95th birthday, of course, but I also wanted to celebrate Canada's 135th birthday too. Amazingly, the bakery had no problem with this request, and they didn't even insist on advance payment!

I had notified my intentions to bring the cake on board to VIA even before the trip. When the train got to Jasper....a few minutes early, I went into the station....no cake. So, I went to the bakery, which was a few blocks away. They told me that the cake had just left and was enroute to the station! When I returned to the station, there it was, and I was aghast! This thing was huge....it would turn out to be about as big as a whole table in the Skyline Car! The cake was a work of art: It was a Canadian flag, red and white, with the red portions made most of fresh strawberries with some red flowers. It had the obligatory "Happy Birthday Eileen" on it, of course (nothing about Canada Day, but hey, who couldn't figure out it was the flag?). The cake was so big that we couldn't get it through the vestibule doors (without tipping it), so it was brought in one of the side doors that opens on the lower level opposite the galley in one of the Skyline Cars. Once inside, I placed four small flags I had brought with me for just this occasion: 2 Canadian in celebration of Canada Day, 1 American because after all, Eileen was American, and one Irish (her maiden name was McCarthy!).

I kept the cake a secret to the rest of the family in the entourage and shortly after departing Jasper, I rounded up everyone in the group and we went to the Skyline Car, where the VIA crew had set up paper plates, knives, forks, champagne, and glasses in honor of the occasion. Needless to say, it was quite a surprise to everyone including the birthday girl. Now, I'm not computer-savvy enough to figure out how to post a picture of Eileen with her cake (and unfortunately I'm in there too) in this forum, but you can see it in my Yahoo profile at:

http://profiles.yahoo.com/vermontanan

And, yes for those that are wondering, I really did change clothes in an attempt to wear the colors of Canada's flag that day! Anyway, due to size of this cake, of course we shared with everyone on the train, and after that, we were the talk of the train for the rest of the trip.

The remainder of trip that day was uneventful, and we were on time or early everywhere. Before turning in that evening, we were advised that we would be detouring around some bridge work the next day, though the route wasn't specified. The next morning I woke up about 500 AM, and we were moving slowly, but steadily. Finally, we came to a town and I was surprised to discover we were on CP's Sutherland subdivision at Lanigan, Saskatchewan. We were detouring all the way from Saskatoon to Portage la Prairie on CP. The speed limit was a leisurely 25 or 35 MPH though it picked up 45 MPH someplace around Minnedosa, Manitoba. Needless to say, we were late, and finally arrived in Winnipeg about 8 hours down. It was nice to ride some new trackage, though I always enjoy the Qu'Appelle Valley from the CN line. I think this area of Saskatchewan and Manitoba is fantastically scenic, and should be viewed by all that think the prairies are flat and treeless.

From Winnipeg, we rented a car and we were met by a friend and we drove to Northeast North Dakota for a couple of days. I flew back home out of Winnipeg, and the rest of my party returned to their various origin points on the Empire Builder from Devils Lake. Unfortunately, Eileen passed away in November of 2003, just short of her 96th birthday, but she never spent any time in a nursing home and truly did live life to the fullest right to the end.

While everyone enjoyed the trip on the Canadian (the Budd-built equipment is hard to top, and the staff was excellent), I couldn't help but come away a bit disappointed. Riding the Canadian and the Empire Builder at the same time allowed some interesting comparisons. It's easy to put the travel experience on the Canadian on a pedestal....truly, it's great. It is, however, sadly very much just about exclusively a tourist train. Though some are listed in the timetable (they now require 48-hours advance notice to stop), we made no passenger stops between Vancouver and Kamloops or between Jasper and Edmonton. We passed Viking 20 minutes ahead of scheduled time and stopped at Wainwright and departed there 8 minutes early. Clearly, this train is not used day in out by Canadians along the route. I was shocked to see the lack of station facilities....many places, like Valemount and Biggar (actually I had visited Biggar two years previous) don't even have an accessible shelter anymore. While the Superliner equipment on the Empire Builder hardly rates as high as the experience in riding in a "Park" car on the Canadian, clearly the Empire Builder is more of a "real" passenger train. The Empire Builder was packed, and there were people boarding and detraining at every stop. Along the entire route, there is only one (Essex, Montana, where a van from the Izaak Walton Inn will pick you up) without at least a lighted/heated waiting area with restrooms. The Empire Builder has as many staffed stations (with ticket agents) in North Dakota alone than does the route of the Canadian between Vancouver and Winnipeg, inclusive. Couple this with the Empire Builder operating daily and the Canadian but three days per week, and one gets the impression that the "Canadian" is not really operating for Canadians. Of course, most are aware that the Empire Builder is Amtrak's best-patronized long distance train and serves an area with few other transportation alternatives; still the comparison is an interesting one. And, I would recommend riding either or both to anyone.

[#welcome] to you VerMontanan![tup][:D]

If there was a prize to be awarded for a GREAT post - you are the winner! Accounts of rail travels such as what you have described - and so vividly I might add - is "what this is all about"! Thank you![tup][tup][tup]

Some comments: As you undoubtedly are aware - we focus on the Canadian aspect of passenger railroading. Speaking only for myself - and I do travel Amtrak for pleasure (if one can call intolerable shuntings to sidings, pleasureable![banghead][censored]) there is no comaprison to VIA Rail's "Canadian" anywhere in North America. (Don't get me started on "tourist" trains!)

I must concur - somewhat - with your commentary regarding the Empire Builder being more of a passenger train than the "Canadian."

On the two round trips we have taken from Toronto to Vancouver (May 2000 and Dec/Jan 2002-03) the trains were full of tourists rather than those having to get from place to place. I understand what you mean.

From what I've learned over the years, the decision was made by Ottawa and the "new blood" inserted at VIA Rail during those "lean years" to trim those daily cross-Canada trains. That surely cut into the pool of people who might have chosen the train over another mode of transport - but with a thice weekly schedule, forget it.

However, nothing can match those Budd stainless steel beauties - nothing! So, Amtrak's "Empire Builder" of today may very well be in the every day operation of transporting people from place to place, but VIA Rail "wins" hands down when it comes to providing the REAL railroading experience for those of us who care about what passenger rail travel should be (and I'm sure you do!).

Don't be a stranger.[:D]

QUOTE: trolleyboy Posted: Today, 00:34:25
This book is absolutly gorgeous and is a wonderfull testiment to CP passenger trains and of Mr Morant's lifes work. I highly rcomend it to everyone. I'd love to see aCP group as well,next to traction the CP is the next best thing in rring. I'm wondering if the CP sig lines group is still active. I know the TH&B and CN ones are still going strong.

Thanks to grinnanbearit for clearing up the 'lectrification"

Dave as far as I know the old boxcabs are all long retired and likely scrapped.Though I had heard the CHRA museum did grab one or two for preservation. Heres hopping.

Yes the rubbertired metro isn't the worlds best subway I do prefer the real mc coy TTC or NYC third rail type systems but hey we electric fans take what we can get. Hopefully the upswing in the travellers on the line will entice the city to expand their horizons and bring in more of the mu equipment.

It's nice to see that more and more cities are getting back into at least concidering or expanding their light rail systems. Ottawa is changimg the O train to electrics and both edmonton and Camgary are concidering expanding possibly even connecting the two cities eventually(pending the funding)

i've heard rumbles of toronto possibly building a light rail run to the airport as well.And Kitchener/waterloo are going ahead with the first stage of a calgary type LRV system as well. It looks as if it;s a go as the kitchener designers have told the engenneers working on the expansion of Hihway 7/8 to include the right of way and height for overpasses to include space for the LRV trackage and overhead. hopefully the juice is back with more to come. Rob

Rob - as always - you've provided some meaningful and up-to-date input. Thanx![tup][tup]

QUOTE: Junctionfan Posted: Today, 06:30:00
Does anybody know if GO transit plans to extend to St.Catharines anytime soon?

This sounds like something made for a trolleyboy response!!
================================================

That's it folks! Have a Happy Easter![:D][:)][8D] and I hope the sun shines wherever you happen to be!

Tom in Chesterfield, MO, USA (Siberianmo)

[Junctionfan]

Does anybody know if GO transit plans to extend to St.Catharines anytime soon?

[trolleyboy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CANADIANPACIFIC2816

An excellent source of information about the passenger trains of the Canadian Pacific Railway can be found in "Nicholas Morant's Canadian Pacific" by J.F. Garden. Nicholas Morant was the CPR's official publicity photographer for more than 40 years and his work is absolutely gorgeous! I would love to see a bunch of us guys who have an interest in the CPR form a Canadian Pacific historical society, and as far as I know, no such organization currently exists. If I am wrong, I would hope that one of our Canadian bretheren would tell me so.

This book is absolutly gorgeous and is a wonderfull testiment to CP passenger trains and of Mr Morant's lifes work. I highly rcomend it to everyone. I'd love to see aCP group as well,next to traction the CP is the next best thing in rring. I'm wondering if the CP sig lines group is still active. I know the TH&B and CN ones are still going strong.Thanks to grinnanbearit for clearing up the 'lectrification" Dave as far as I know the old boxcabs are all long retired and likely scrapped.Though I had heard the CHRA museum did grab one or two for preservation. Heres hopping. Yes the rubbertired metro isn't the worlds best subway I do prefer the real mc coy TTC or NYC third rail type systems but hey we electric fans take what we can get. Hopefully the upswing in the travellers on the line will entice the city to expand their horizons and bring in more of the mu equipment.It's nice to see that more and more cities are getting back into at least concidering or expanding their light rail systems. Ottawa is changimg the O train to electrics and both edmonton and Camgary are concidering expanding possibly even connecting the two cities eventually(pending the funding) i've heard rumbles of toronto possibly building a light rail run to the airport as well.And Kitchener/waterloo are going ahead with the first stage of a calgary type LRV system as well. It looks as if it;s a go as the kitchener designers have told the engenneers working on the expansion of Hihway 7/8 to include the right of way and height for overpasses to include space for the LRV trackage and overhead. hopefully the juice is back with more to come. Rob

[VerMontanan]

I've traveled quite a bit on Canadian Railways over the years. Just about all the trips have been memorable...there are just so many great trips available even today, though highly diminished from years past. Certainly some of my favorites include the Chaleur, the Hudson Bay, the Algoma Central Hearst train, and Quebec North Shore and Labrador.

Probably the most memorable was in 2002 aboard the Canadian, and not for the reason most people remember riding the Canadian like scenery, service, equipment, or food though they were all great.

I was invited along with various family members to celebrate their matriarch's 95th birthday, which would actually occur that following winter (but summer seemed like a better time to do this, especially with someone coming up on 95 years young). Since she was like "my other Mom," I jumped at the chance to join the group. The rail portion of the trip actually started for me when I boarded the westbound Empire Builder in St. Paul, Minnesota. The next day, the birthday lady (who lived in Glendive, Montana) and her son (a resident of Havre) boarded the same train in Wolf Point, Montana. At Whitefish, Montana a daughter and spouse boarded and at Spokane, Washington another daughter and son-in-law got aboard the Empire Builder. We all rode to Seattle where we spent the evening. The next morning, we rode the Amtrak Cascades service to Vancouver, BC where we had almost six hours to wait until the departure of VIA train 2, the Canadian, which we would ride to Winnipeg. During our layover in Vancouver, I had arranged for a charter tour company (Blue Mountain Tours) to give us a quickie tour of Vancouver.

After the bus tour, we returned to the Vancouver VIA station where we had our first encounter with VIA personnel that would be uniformly pleasant and helpful for our entire trip. And of course when they found out the purpose of our trip, we became somewhat like celebreties, since even pushing 95, Eileen was a joy to be around, and touched all those she encountered. We departed Vancouver at 530 PM on June 30, 2002.

I like to plan things well in advance, and I agonized over how to make this trip even more special than it was given those accompanying the birthday girl and the circumstances. When I realized that we would be passing through Jasper on July 1 - Canada Day, and that the train is due to spend well over an hour there....I had an idea. About two weeks prior to the trip, I called a local bakery in Jasper, Alberta, and ordered a birthday cake to be delivered to the train. It would be in celebration of our trip in honor of Eileen's 95th birthday, of course, but I also wanted to celebrate Canada's 135th birthday too. Amazingly, the bakery had no problem with this request, and they didn't even insist on advance payment!

I had notified my intentions to bring the cake on board to VIA even before the trip. When the train got to Jasper....a few minutes early, I went into the station....no cake. So, I went to the bakery, which was a few blocks away. They told me that the cake had just left and was enroute to the station! When I returned to the station, there it was, and I was aghast! This thing was huge....it would turn out to be about as big as a whole table in the Skyline Car! The cake was a work of art: It was a Canadian flag, red and white, with the red portions made most of fresh strawberries with some red flowers. It had the obligatory "Happy Birthday Eileen" on it, of course (nothing about Canada Day, but hey, who couldn't figure out it was the flag?). The cake was so big that we couldn't get it through the vestibule doors (without tipping it), so it was brought in one of the side doors that opens on the lower level opposite the galley in one of the Skyline Cars. Once inside, I placed four small flags I had brought with me for just this occasion: 2 Canadian in celebration of Canada Day, 1 American because after all, Eileen was American, and one Irish (her maiden name was McCarthy!).

I kept the cake a secret to the rest of the family in the entourage and shortly after departing Jasper, I rounded up everyone in the group and we went to the Skyline Car, where the VIA crew had set up paper plates, knives, forks, champagne, and glasses in honor of the occasion. Needless to say, it was quite a surprise to everyone including the birthday girl. Now, I'm not computer-savvy enough to figure out how to post a picture of Eileen with her cake (and unfortunately I'm in there too) in this forum, but you can see it in my Yahoo profile at:

http://profiles.yahoo.com/vermontanan

And, yes for those that are wondering, I really did change clothes in an attempt to wear the colors of Canada's flag that day! Anyway, due to size of this cake, of course we shared with everyone on the train, and after that, we were the talk of the train for the rest of the trip.

The remainder of trip that day was uneventful, and we were on time or early everywhere. Before turning in that evening, we were advised that we would be detouring around some bridge work the next day, though the route wasn't specified. The next morning I woke up about 500 AM, and we were moving slowly, but steadily. Finally, we came to a town and I was surprised to discover we were on CP's Sutherland subdivision at Lanigan, Saskatchewan. We were detouring all the way from Saskatoon to Portage la Prairie on CP. The speed limit was a leisurely 25 or 35 MPH though it picked up 45 MPH someplace around Minnedosa, Manitoba. Needless to say, we were late, and finally arrived in Winnipeg about 8 hours down. It was nice to ride some new trackage, though I always enjoy the Qu'Appelle Valley from the CN line. I think this area of Saskatchewan and Manitoba is fantastically scenic, and should be viewed by all that think the prairies are flat and treeless.

From Winnipeg, we rented a car and we were met by a friend and we drove to Northeast North Dakota for a couple of days. I flew back home out of Winnipeg, and the rest of my party returned to their various origin points on the Empire Builder from Devils Lake. Unfortunately, Eileen passed away in November of 2003, just short of her 96th birthday, but she never spent any time in a nursing home and truly did live life to the fullest right to the end.

While everyone enjoyed the trip on the Canadian (the Budd-built equipment is hard to top, and the staff was excellent), I couldn't help but come away a bit disappointed. Riding the Canadian and the Empire Builder at the same time allowed some interesting comparisons. It's easy to put the travel experience on the Canadian on a pedestal....truly, it's great. It is, however, sadly very much just about exclusively a tourist train. Though some are listed in the timetable (they now require 48-hours advance notice to stop), we made no passenger stops between Vancouver and Kamloops or between Jasper and Edmonton. We passed Viking 20 minutes ahead of scheduled time and stopped at Wainwright and departed there 8 minutes early. Clearly, this train is not used day in out by Canadians along the route. I was shocked to see the lack of station facilities....many places, like Valemount and Biggar (actually I had visited Biggar two years previous) don't even have an accessible shelter anymore. While the Superliner equipment on the Empire Builder hardly rates as high as the experience in riding in a "Park" car on the Canadian, clearly the Empire Builder is more of a "real" passenger train. The Empire Builder was packed, and there were people boarding and detraining at every stop. Along the entire route, there is only one (Essex, Montana, where a van from the Izaak Walton Inn will pick you up) without at least a lighted/heated waiting area with restrooms. The Empire Builder has as many staffed stations (with ticket agents) in North Dakota alone than does the route of the Canadian between Vancouver and Winnipeg, inclusive. Couple this with the Empire Builder operating daily and the Canadian but three days per week, and one gets the impression that the "Canadian" is not really operating for Canadians. Of course, most are aware that the Empire Builder is Amtrak's best-patronized long distance train and serves an area with few other transportation alternatives; still the comparison is an interesting one. And, I would recommend riding either or both to anyone.

[Grinandbearit]

The Montreal-Deux Montagnes is still electrified but using Bombardier MU motors and trailers. I don't know whether they are still operated by CN crews but I doubt it. Apparently ridership on the line has increased to the point that it's hard to find space on the cars at intermediate stops on the way in to Central station.

[selector]

Siberianmo, I have been mostly off line doing gardening, house work, finishing touches on layout (biggest was painting river and lake bottoms and edges, and then pouring the 'water').

Just got a Super Emprie Builder and now have to acquire a power supply...grrrr!

Picked up one of two daughters who live in Ottawa at the ferry in Nanaimo, and she exclaimed, (quote) Holy crap! (unquote) when she saw the layout. I guess it must be something. [:D]

I'm in and out here, but I do try to keep up.

For the others, thanks for keeping this alive. I know you've made Tom's month.

Lang may yer lum reek.