CANADIAN PASSENGER RAILROADS - Let's talk! BYOB ........

[OnHarry]

I am disapointed. I have read through the entire thread over the last few days and no one has as yet mentioned my favourtie Canadian Railway the TH&B. Anyway more on that later.

My earliest experience with passenger trains here was seeing my grandfather off with my parents in I believe 1957 or 58. I grew up in Brantford Ontario, and the train did not last too long after that. It was a mixed train I am fairly sure and it started in Stratford and ran down to Paris Jct. on the Drumbo Subdivisoin, then took the main line to Brantford and went onto the Caledonia subdivision to go to Fort Erie. My grandfather lived in Dunnville. This may seem convoluted but it actually followed much of the right of way of the original Buffalo and Lake Huron railway.

It was memeorable as I was already bitten by the railway bug, however my dad did not have a car so I could not go and watch trains at the CN station then. The most vivid memory of the day was a passenger train that preceeded the mixed train and it was pulled by a steam engine that took water while in the station.

A few years later summer 1962 I believe we took a bus to Hamilton, and went to the TH&B's really spiffy station there. I distinctly remember seeing CP fairbanks morse engines switching the coach yard beside the track after we had boarded. You had to go up a ramp to get to the track level. The crews were all known to me as they took the East Local job to Brantford in the winter and did the passenger run in the summer. They would go to Buffalo in the morning and lay over till the evening and return on the train then. They wore New York Central Uniforms except they had TH&B embroidered in gold wire thread on the lapels.

I should add that my dad was a sectionman on the Waterford subdivision, and our whole family was traveling on his pass to Buffalo to spenfd a week with relatives.

The trip over was uneventful, I recall there was a mix of different cars both CP and NYC. The trip back though was really neat. We were in the main concourse at Buffalo's Central Station, and my dad was talking to the engineer and fireman when they walked past. I didn't think anything of it at the time. The train was late leaving as there had been a derailment at Black Rock on the lift bridge across a canal, just before the trains went to the high bridge over the Niagara River. We were diverted to Niagara Falls, New York and crossed the suspension bridge there into Niagara Falls Ontario and ran through the Montrose yard and onto Welland where the train rejoined the TH&B's track. My dad suggested we go for a walk and stretch our legs and maybe I could see the engines. I was happy to comply. We were by this time almost three maybe four hours late.

Tthe engines to my delight were streamlined New York Central E-7's, something I had never seen before. When we got to the head end the engineer, the late Freddie Groves, looked down and said to Dad all clear. Then I was told by my dad to climb up and see the inside of the cab. This was getting better and better. It was not till I got up there that I realized I and my dad were going to ride to Hamilton in the cab. Freddie ran them for all they were worth hitting ninety miles per hour at times and really the whole trip was a blur. I suppose that strictly speaking that is not a passenger tale but I thought you might like it.

I will relate some other stories of CN and CP in another post. thanks for reading.

[tatans]

Morseman: Just found more on the Canadian murals, most were saved, all were restored and can be seen at the Canada Science & Technology Museum, there really is quite a story to the historic artifacts.

[siberianmo]

Good morning - a fine, fine morning here in mid-continent U.S.A. - blue skies and a great way to begin the celebration of Palm Sunday, for those who do.

Not much in the way of contributions thus far today - but, weekends are for things other than keyboarding. So, let me simply say - [#welcome] to tatans and another Bon Voyage to morseman!

Oh yes - someone sent me an e-mail, apparently a bit "up tight" over my "BYOB" that appears in the subject line. All I can say is, "Get a life!" It can mean whatever one desires it to mean. Just fun - simply that and no more.[wow]

I expect we'll have a few more "stories" to sort through in the beginning of the week - and I've noticed we've turned another page on this topic! So, all's not lost ........

See ya![tup]

Tom in Chesterfield, MO (Siberianmo)

[morseman]

800pm and I'm still around. Car is all packed and leaving in am
& thought I'd just check see whats new on the forum.

Didn't realizer my mention of the murals on The Canadian
would draw such interest. I thot the restored murals were
replaced but now just read over part of my borrowed book
thst s few of them went missing & all the ones that were
restored rest in the CPR archives.

[tatans]

Just another note on the "Canadian" murals , some of the murals were painted by surviving members of the Group of Seven, my story was none of them survived although they would have been a great contribution to Canada's art history, I'm sorry, I may have contributed to the odd drink spilled on the paintings during one of many trips to the coast (Vancouver) those were the days eh! Just a bunch of hosers having a few laughs, seems none of us ever did look out the windows either.

[tatans]

Siberianmo: Mt. Robson 12,972' (highest in the Rockies) Mt. Logan (Yukon) 19,850' 2nd highest in North America.

[Dayliner]

siberianmo,

QUOTE: Unfortunately, we can't get there from here - so to speak - without a somewhat exhausting and convoluted travel itinerary. The one and only non-stop we had to Vancouver disappeared with the demise of TWA.

You may find it's easier getting to Seattle from St Louis--still roughly the same amount of hassle getting to the Island from Seattle as from Vancouver. There are rumours floating around right now that the E&N service may be on the chopping block due to cuts in VIA's budget. Of course, the passenger service has been in perpetual peril for as long as I can remember, so the rumours may be just that. I remember in the 80s, when it seemed that the passenger service might close, I spent a lot of time chasing, photographing, and riding the Budd cars, and I ignored the E&N's freight service, which I assumed would always be around. Now the freight business is almost gone, and the passenger trains are still chugging along. Go figure.

QUOTE: Our last RDC trip was in 1999 (previously discussed on the back pages) from N. Vancouver up to Lilloeet and back. A great fun trip with wonderful meal service at our seats - fantastic scenery - friendly personnel and passengers - just a memory that will remain with us for the rest of our days. I lament the passing of BC Rail and the Cariboo Prospector.

I agree--the BC Rail passenger service was tops for scenery and service. I rode the whole length of the line in 1995, and have ridden both the Squamish excursion and the late, lamented dinner train more recently. I know some of the guys who used to work those trains and they are the best: top-notch railroaders and really good guys who will give you the shirt off their back, on or off the trains.

As my friend athelney noted in an earlier posting on this thread, we have a couple of the ex-BCR Budd cars at the West Coast Railway Heritage Park in Squamish, and plan to restore them. So, although the BCR service is no more, it may be possible to ride the equipment again in the future. As you can see from my handle, I am a big fan of RDCs, so that prospect certainly turns my crank.

[siberianmo]

QUOTE: The groundrules are pretty simple:

Share your thoughts about Canadian passenger railroading - past and present. Let's not bash one another because of differences in opinion and of course, nationalities. Above all - keep politics out of our discussions.

FOR NEWCOMERS: May I suggest that you browse the pages from start to finish? You may find something that will enhance what you are about to post, plus you'll find out "where we've been."


Ladies and Gentlemen, let's talk Canadian passenger trains!

==================================================
Good Morning all! While we are not burning up the bits and bytes, we're still communicating about one of my favorite subjects - Canadian Passenger Railroads! Thanx to all .........[tup]

morseman

QUOTE: Just a short note re the murals of the Canadian.
One other problem the restorers had with the murals was they were glued directly onto metal panels which in turn were rivited to the frame of the car. The paintings endured constant vibrations. Eventually this led to the paint cracking along the joints in the metal panels.

As mentioned earlied these Budd cars were similar to the Zephyr cars except for the absence of the light at the rear car & I just discovered that the Canadian was equipped with H-couplere which the Zephyr's lacked, Apparently the H couplers were supposed to provide a smoother ride.

My wife and I are off now for about a month, Down to Philly to visit our family
and I'll be spending sometime visition Amtrak/Septa Main Line . Then we are off to Fort Lauderdale on the Silver Star, Eastern Carribean cruise on the Celebrity Century, Then returning back to Philly on the Silver Meteor.
Will let u all know how the trip was soon as we return.

QUOTE: Hey, I just forgot to mention in my last note:

Someone was mentioning a while back about the Montreal & Southers Counties Ry. and I Thot you would enjoy the following Back in the forties M&SC terminal was at Youville Square in Montreal. When the train left the terminal it went down one block and that one block was shared with Montreal tramways street car, (Believe it was route 29 Outremont0 and the only route in Montreal with PCC cars. The over heas wire for M&SC & Route 29 was separated by about a foot. M&SC then took a right hand turn will the PC turned left. Apparenntly there was a new driver on the PCC one day & the switch
was turned to the right. Of course the driver had to go back and reconnet
the car to the electricity & he continued on his way. A M&SC train was right
behind & no way was he going to back up. The PCC had to keep going and
had toi cross the St.Lawrence River on the Victoria bridge into Longueuil
before it could turn back. The only thing that saved to PCC car operator was
Youville Square was also end of the line before returning to Outremont
and no one was on board................

Well, first - bon voyage! Sounds like a great itinerary and hope you both enjoy yourselves to the fullest.[:D]

One of the benefits derived from participating in a discussion like ours is that there is so much to learn. Sort of like sitting in the Park Car (VIA Rail's Canadian or Ocean or Skeena or Bras d'Or) and listening in on conversations going on around you. I would not have known about the "H" couplers had it not been for your comments. Thanx![tup]

The murals, in their day, must have been something to behold. I have seen several recreations and would really like to obtain the book you mentioned previously.

Interesting account of the M&SC and PCC! Could have been tragic indeed.

Look forward to "hearing" from you again![:)]

Dayliner

QUOTE: Hey there siberianmo (and everyone else),

Glad to see this thread's still running. I don't get on line very day so apologies for not responding sooner.

For those of you who were asking about the E&N "Malahat" dayliner, it is very definitely worth the trip--the last daily rural (or semi-rural) branch-line passenger service in North America, I believe. VIA markets it as sightseeing day-trip, so it can be easily integrated into your vacation if you are planning to spend more than a couple of days on Vancouver Island. The Budds overnight in the old CPR roundhouse in Victoria West (about half a mile west of the station in downtown Victoria, and on the other side of the harbour). They run back to the station to load (used to be about half an hour before departure; don't know whether that is still the case). The passenger crews used to be based in Victoria and would work three days on, three days off--it was a highly-coveted gig: working days, home every evening for supper (not many running trades jobs like that). All E&N crews are now based in Nanaimo, so the crew starts its day in Nanaimo mid-morning, runs up to Courtenay, brings the train back to Victoria, overnights in Victoria then takes the tain back to Nanimo the next morning where a new crew takes over.

Usual crew is engineer and conductor--there is no food service on board so there are no food and drink employees. The cars have been recently rebuilt and are really nice to ride in (except I understand 6148 keeps breaking down). Usual consist is one or two cars depending on the season, although I have ridden a three-car tain on the Island.

The most spectacular scenery is over the mountain range called the Malahat, just north of Victoria. That section includes two high steel bridges (one of them, at Niagara Canyon, was built in 1884 to carry the CPR's main line across the Fraser River at Cisco; it was relocated to Vancouver Island in 1914), and a short tunnel. The scenery is pleasant, but less spectaular, all along the line, with pastoral views through the Cowichan Valley and again just south of Courtenay, and some running along the beach at Nanoose Bay, which a part of the trip I always enjoy.

To ride the whole line is a four and a half hour trip one way, and there is no food service on board, so the non-railfans in your party may want a smaller dose (perhaps a day-trip Victoria-Chemainus and return which would suit the whole family). For those making the whole trip, a catering truck meets the train at Nanaimo both north- and south-bound, so you can at least get a coffee and a sandwich.

Quite a few of the old stations are still standing along the line: Duncan, Ladysmith, Nanaimo (check out the "Gents" toilets), Parksville, Qualicum Beach, Courtenay.

I guarantee you will fall in love with the E&N once you ride!

Dayliner - if I haven't said it somewhere before - let me be the first: [#welcome]

Your description of the "Malahat" RDC's is what some of us have been waiting to read. Makes me want to get going on our trip to Vancouver Island - pronto quick. Unfortunately, we can't get there from here - so to speak - without a somewhat exhausting and convoluted travel itinerary.

When TWA folded their tent - bought out by American Airlines - St. Louis lost an airline "hub." American downsized our terminal's arrivals and departures so much so that most flights these days are connectors - have to change planes here or there in order to get to where you want to go. The one and only non-stop we had to Vancouver disappeared with the demise of TWA.[tdn][#offtopic]

Okay - back on track now. I'm happy to learn that the RDC's are still holding their own - with the exception you noted. They have been extremely durable products and the ghost of Mr. Budd should bear a continuing smile about that!

Our last RDC trip was in 1999 (previously discussed on the back pages) from N. Vancouver up to Lilloeet and back. A great fun trip with wonderful meal service at our seats - fantastic scenery - friendly personnel and passengers - just a memory that will remain with us for the rest of our days. I lament the passing of BC Rail and the Cariboo Prospector.[:(]

trolleyboy

QUOTE: PARTIALLY QUOTED ..... Tom were looking forward to september as well so hopefully all works out.And we could be coerced into taking a Go trip as well. Rob

Rob - consider yourself "coerced"![tup]

wrwatkins

QUOTE: PARTIALLY QUOTED ....... Where did you pick up the name Siberianmo? Been to that garden spot?

Siberian is for our first dog - FRED (no, not what the railroads think it means!) and our current dog - JUNEAU - both Siberian Huskies. MO is simply - Missouri, where we reside. The closest I have gotten to Siberia would be the Little Diomede Island in the Bering Sea ......... close enough thank you very much!

By the way, thanx for your e-mail address - I'll be in touch ........
================================================

I'll save my next train story for another day - have to catch up on some chores that somehow are for Saturday's only![:)]

Tom in Chesterfield, MO

[trolleyboy]

Hello again.morseman it's intresting to hear you mention the "overhead" situation in Montreal. It was a political thing M&SC was a CN owned line at of coarse MTC ws operated by the city. Neither wanted to share wire because they didn't want to have to pay for the other guyspower or line maintenance. It was always a strange relationship.One could understand the non-sharing if they were different voltages but both ran 600v overhead.It was good for our museum though beacaus ewe didn't have to convert our M&SC car to lower voltage as it is designed for 600v not 15 or 1200v as some other interurbans ran at. All we had to do to 107 was reguage uit's trucks to ttc guage of 4"107\8ths. Tom were looking forward to september as well so hopefully all works out.And we could be coerced into taking a Go trip as well. Rob

[Dayliner]

Hey there siberianmo (and everyone else),

Glad to see this thread's still running. I don't get on line very day so apologies for not responding sooner.

For those of you who were asking about the E&N "Malahat" dayliner, it is very definitely worth the trip--the last daily rural (or semi-rural) branch-line passenger service in North America, I believe. VIA markets it as sightseeing day-trip, so it can be easily integrated into your vacation if you are planning to spend more than a couple of days on Vancouver Island. The Budds overnight in the old CPR roundhouse in Victoria West (about half a mile west of the station in downtown Victoria, and on the other side of the harbour). They run back to the station to load (used to be about half an hour before departure; don't know whether that is still the case). The passenger crews used to be based in Victoria and would work three days on, three days off--it was a highly-coveted gig: working days, home every evening for supper (not many running trades jobs like that). All E&N crews are now based in Nanaimo, so the crew starts its day in Nanaimo mid-morning, runs up to Courtenay, brings the train back to Victoria, overnights in Victoria then takes the tain back to Nanimo the next morning where a new crew takes over.

Usual crew is engineer and conductor--there is no food service on board so there are no food and drink employees. The cars have been recently rebuilt and are really nice to ride in (except I understand 6148 keeps breaking down). Usual consist is one or two cars depending on the season, although I have ridden a three-car tain on the Island.

The most spectacular scenery is over the mountain range called the Malahat, just north of Victoria. That section includes two high steel bridges (one of them, at Niagara Canyon, was built in 1884 to carry the CPR's main line across the Fraser River at Cisco; it was relocated to Vancouver Island in 1914), and a short tunnel. The scenery is pleasant, but less spectaular, all along the line, with pastoral views through the Cowichan Valley and again just south of Courtenay, and some running along the beach at Nanoose Bay, which a part of the trip I always enjoy.

To ride the whole line is a four and a half hour trip one way, and there is no food service on board, so the non-railfans in your party may want a smaller dose (perhaps a day-trip Victoria-Chemainus and return which would suit the whole family). For those making the whole trip, a catering truck meets the train at Nanaimo both north- and south-bound, so you can at least get a coffee and a sandwich.

Quite a few of the old stations are still standing along the line: Duncan, Ladysmith, Nanaimo (check out the "Gents" toilets), Parksville, Qualicum Beach, Courtenay.

I guarantee you will fall in love with the E&N once you ride!

[morseman]

Hey, I just forgot to mention in my last note:

Someone was mentioning a while back about the Montreal & Southers Counties Ry.
and I Thot you wouldenjoy the following
Back in the forties M&SC terminal was at Youville Square in Montreal.
When the train left the terminal it went down one block and that one block was shared with
Montreal tramways street car, (Believe it was route 29 Outremont0 and the only
route in Montreal with PCC cars. The over heas wire for M&SC & Route 29
was separated by about a foot. M&SC then took a right hand turn will the PC
turned left. Apparenntly there was a new driver on the PCC one day & the switch
was turned to the right. Of course the driver had to go back and reconnet
the car to the electricity & he continued on his way. A M&SC train was right
behind & no way was he going to back up. The PCC had to keep going and
had toi cross the St.Lawrence River on the Victoria bridge into Longueuil
before it could turn back. The only thing that saved to PCC car operator was
Youville Square was also end of the line before returning to Outremont
and no one was on board................

[morseman]

Just a short note re the murals of the Canadian.
One other problem the restorers had with the murals was they were glued directly
onto metal panels which in turn were rivited to the frame of the car. The paintings endured
constant vibrations. Eventually this led to the paint cracking along the joints in the
metal panels.

As mentioned earlied these Budd cars were similar to the Zephyr cars except for
the absence of the light at the rear car & I just discovered that the Canadian was
equipped with H-couplere which the Zephyr's lacked, Apparently the H couplers were
supposed to provide a smoother ride.

My wife and I are off now for about a month, Down to Philly to visit our family
and I'll be spending sometime visition Amtrak/Septa Main Line .
Then we are off to Fort Lauderdale on the Silver Star, Eastern Carribean cruise
on the Celebrity Century, Then returning back to Philly on the Silver Meteor.
Will let u all know how the trip was soon as we return.

[siberianmo]

QUOTE: The groundrules are pretty simple:

Share your thoughts about Canadian passenger railroading - past and present. Let's not bash one another because of differences in opinion and of course, nationalities. Above all - keep politics out of our discussions.

FOR NEWCOMERS: May I suggest that you browse the pages from start to finish? You may find something that will enhance what you are about to post, plus you'll find out "where we've been."


Ladies and Gentlemen, let's talk Canadian passenger trains!

================================

Good morning all! Well, I see that there were ZERO posts yesterday, March 17th. Hmmmmmm guess the "wearin' o' the green" was the reason![^]

I spent 13 hours and 15 minutes aboard an Amtrak train yesterday with a friend of mine. Since this has nothing to do with Canadian Passenger Railroading, I'll just let it go at that![:D] Long day - still a wee bit tired this morning.

trolleyboy and wrwatkins - Thanx for your contributions. Now that you perked my interests in those bilevel cars - I'm just going to HAVE to ride them!

*** - I appreciate the elaboration regarding DART and the use of the RDC's. I have some photo's of those RDC's in Halifax when they were layed up by VIA Rail due to the discontinuance of the service between Halifax and Yarmouth and north to Sydney. I knew some were sold off to DART and in fact, I was involved in an attempt to "short cycle" a couple of them as they passed through St. Louis. I was heavily involved with a group trying to get light-rail service into the area west of downtown. We have an existing rail right-of-way - in sporadic use by a local freight hauler - nevertheless, we wanted the RDC's for demo purposes to illustrate to the public that passenger service IS a viable alternative to the burning of lots and lots of fuel in our daily commutes by car.
Long, long story - unhappy ending. Case closed.[:(!][oops][#offtopic]

Rob - Perhaps if our plans work out for September, we can take a brief ride on the GO trains. We are eagerly looking forward to a possible journey northward with the two of you and as we progress through time - let's hope it will materialize![tup]

grinandbearit: Sorry - missed your post the first time! Yes - the "Enterprise" may very well suffer the cut because of the budget axe. Seems that Ottawa - a while ago - announced that VIA Rail's operating budget would be slashed. VIA's response included putting some routes on the proverbial block - the "Enterprise" being just one. Hasn't happened yet - but my suggestion is if you want to experience it - do it soon!
==============================================================
Okay - time for MY story about a VIA Rail trip with a and a not-so-happy conclusion.

In December of 2002, my wife and I departed Toronto aboard VIA Rail's "Canadian" bound for Vancovuer. Having made the round trip once before, but in May, we were exicited about the prospects of a winter voyage across most of Canada.

We were able to book the drawing room suite in the Park Car (Glacier Park) and settled into our seats in the dome as the train pulled out of Toronto's Union Station. The day was rather gloomy, a bit of light rain and sleet hitting the windows as we wound our way through and out of the city.

The further north we got, the clearer the skies and by the time we started see evidence of that magnificant Canadian Shield, the skies were blue with some white puffy clouds. Great picture taking with some memorable sights indeed.

Now I could continue this dialogue in the style aforementioned - but then it would just drone on and one - for really, the trip WAS fantastic. The snow amounts were far, far less than what we had hoped for - but then again, those of you living in Canada - especially the mountainous regions, know full well what the drought conditions have been like for quite some time. Nevertheless, we were undaunted in our optimism that the trip would hold true to our high
expectations - and for the most part it did.

On Friday, January 3rd, our train was struck by a rock slide just north of Boston Bar in the Fraser Canyon. Fortunately, this event did not seriously damage the train or harm any people within it. The delay of six hours wound up being a PLUS in that once we resumed our voyage, we got to view some sights that would have otherwise been "voids" to us. For had the train kept to its schedule, we would have passed through that area in darkness. (Same for the eastbound - darkness..........). Saw things that were all new to me (and have been alluded to in my previous posts) - for example, the rock slide 'sheds' that deflect the slides OVER the tracks rather than on to them. Interesting and effective concept indeed. Also the tunnel carved out of the rock - no portals - pretty rugged and functional. Can just imagine the work those people put into building that railroad! Wow.

Now - fast forward to the day of departure from Vancouver, Sunday, January 5th.

Talk had been heard in the "Silver & Blue" waiting area set aside for bedroom passengers at Pacific Central Station, that the "Cruise Ship Virus" had been detected on the train that had arrived from Toronto that morning. The train, was "quarantined" - not the passengers - and another had to be assembled rather quickly for the eastbound "Canadian" that evening (our triain).

Now for those of you who don't know - this particular virus is a real doozy. Once it hits you - expect to be "out of it" for 48 hours, working very well from all 'ends' I might add. It probably is better known as the "Norwalk Virus" to most people who follow these things.

It was said that 15 passengers in the coach portion of the morning train had come down with the virus and they were in very poor shape as some were carried from the train. All of this talk didn't bode well for what we had expected to unfold.

We board the "new" train - deposited our belongings in the drawing room of the Stathcona Park Car and headed up to the dome to take in the sights of the train departing Vancouver. Just a marvelous way to travel - my wife had a complimentary glass of champagne and I had a local brew - and all was well with the world as we left Vancouver behind us.

The next day was a picture taking day indeed. Just to give you one example, check out this photo of Mt. Robson - the tallest mounain in Canada at 12,972 ft/3,953 m. (click to enlarge ......)



That should give you an idea of the great sky very conducive to picture taking (and keeping!).

Fast forward to the next day as the train pulled into Winnipeg. We noticed all kinds of activity alongside the south side of the tracks as we neared the station. TV cameras, reporters, microphones, et al. When we asked our car attendant what was going on - he indicated that he had no idea, so we let it go at that. We arrived at the station to an announcement that if anyone wanted to stretch their legs now would be the time, but that they would NOT be permitted to reboard until further notice. Hmmmmm - we stayed on board.

After about 2 hours of sitting up in the dome,and the train already late for the scheduled departure, we began to ask of the "new" attendant, what was going on. She said there was a "work issue" and that several new crew members refused to board the train. No further elaboration was given.

About 2 hours after that - we heard an announcement that the train would be delayed further pending arrival of Health Canada officials. Hmmmmmmm.

Fast forward to the bottom line:

The virus had stricken a half dozen passengers, one in the bedroom compartment adjacent to ours. We had noticed that all during the trip, the handrails were being constantly wiped by attendants wearing latex gloves and spraying a solution wherever one might be expected to touch ....... That was the only overt indication of preventative measures being taken to safeguard us from this virus. The replacement crew refused to board at Winnipeg until assurances were given that they would not be adversely impacted.

That evening - after the train finally left, a total of 6 hours in delay - we had dinner. Within a half hour of that event, I got sick - and did I ever get sick! I'm an "old guy" and have experienced feeling bad in my life - but I assure you, NEVER quite like this.

The remainder of the trip to Toronto was spent in the toilet - got to know that rascal "up close and personal" or comatose in bed. Awful experience to say the least.

We were met at the station by VIA Rail and Health Canada officials. The latter wanted to take "samples" and the former wanted me to sign something similar to a "release." I provided the sample - but refused the release.

We remined on the train for about 45 minutes after everyone else had departed and then we were "cleared" to go. The VIA Rail official arranged for our baggage to be taken to a taxi - put us in it - picked up the tab (for the cab, that is) and sent us on our way to the hotel we had made reservations with. Stayed at the Renaissance in the Sky Dome.

Fast forward to today: Haven't heard a word about the incident since and the replies to my inquiries regarding exactly what was done with my "samples" and confirmation from VIA and Helath Canada that this was the "Cruise Ship Virus" have NEVER been addressed. I even provided photo copies of the newspaper accounts of the virus aboard the trains (that earlier train I alluded to, and ours) - but it was if the recipients closed their minds to the facts ......[tdn][tdn][tdn])

Case closed.

P.S. Am I angry with VIA Rail over this? NO - absolutely NOT. I love those trains and I enjoy the experience. However, I think ineptitude and rudeness on the part of ANY indiviudal can NEVER be excused. So, I will probably always harbor a feeling of ill will directed toward those who should have:

(1) Informed the passengers on the train of the situation when it became apparent that the virus was indeed detected.

(2) Permitted those of us who were not yet effect, to get off the train in Winnipeg in order to make other travel plans.

(3) Been a bit more helpful to those of us stricken with the illness to include arranging for a doctor to check us out either on the train or at our hotel.

(4) etc. ......
=================================================

Okay - that's it for me. Have a great day and I hope to see a bit more activity today on OUR discussion topic.[tup][tup]

[Grinandbearit]

The word is that VIA will be dropping the "Enterprise" in the near future. Don't know why but I suspect lack of funding as the reason.

[Anonymous]

For Siberianmo

My email is [e-mail]. Would be glad to discuss DART with you.

The Sounder equipment is Bombardier bilevel coaches like the GO Transit set in a recent reply. I think their equipment is a newer vintage than the GO Transit equipment.

DART bought several surplus Bombardier bilevel cars from GO Transit and refurbished them for our Trinity Rail Express commuter service between Dallas and Fort Worth. We also bought 3-4 cab cars new from Bombardier as we do not have a convienant place to Y the train. We also have 13 Budd RDCs that came from the surplus line of VIA in Montreal. We tend to like the Canadian equipment. The RDCs were stripped down to the frame and essentially remanufactured to US/Amtrak specs. The bilevels and cab cars kept the Canadian voltage which is about 40 volts more than the Amtrak standard. Don't quote me but I believe the voltages are 480 and 520. We only use the RDCs as backup service and only run one train set of 3 cars during commute hours. The rest of the service is with the bilevels. They do haul more people. I like the RDCs and am saddened to see them slowly being withdrawn from service. We did not equip them with rest rooms which does create a problem for longer commutes. I can say that these cars were purchased prior to my arrival on the board.

Where did you pick up the name Siberianmo? Been to that garden spot?

Cheers,
*** Watkins

[trolleyboy]

Hey siberianmo the go's a neat ride sort of like overgrown subway cars.It's convienient though free parking in their lots and the prices are reasonable.To get the full enjoyment you need to ride on all three levels.The small mid level seats over the trucks I find are the most comfortable(and are usually the first to be grabbed)Pictures I've seen of the sounder would look to me like the same type of cars as go and any of the other bi-level users. Rob

[siberianmo]

QUOTE: The groundrules are pretty simple:

Share your thoughts about Canadian passenger railroading - past and present. Let's not bash one another because of differences in opinion and of course, nationalities. Above all - keep politics out of our discussions.

FOR NEWCOMERS: May I suggest that you browse the pages from start to finish? You may find something that will enhance what you are about to post, plus you'll find out "where we've been."

Ladies and Gentlemen, let's talk Canadian passenger trains!

====================================================
Good morning all! The gremlins are at work this fine day - they "ate" my first submission - argghhhh [censored][banghead][censored][banghead]

If at first you don't succeed ........

wrwatkins

QUOTE: PARTIALLY QUOTED

..... Our excursion for this convention was a trip to Niagra Falls. We left Tronto station on a train consisting of 15 GO Transit Bombardier bilevel coaches. No problem boarding in Toronto as the station is quite large. ..... Niagra Falls has a small country style station with short platforms. Only 4 coaches could be at the platform at one time so the train was jogged four coaches at a time until everyone was off. We were on the last set of coaches to be unloaded. When I stepped off the train I looked down the track towards the engine. The engine and the first two coaches were across the international bridge and in the United States. Do not know what the customs boys did with this partial international crossing. The return was the same, only in reverse.

Looks like a good lead in for a great international "thriller diller" movie! Never did travel aboard those bilevel coaches and don't know why. As often as we've been to Toronto - you'd think a "train nut" would have at least taken the time ......
Well "next time."[tup]

wrwatkins

QUOTE: PARTIALLY QUOTED
Allow me to tell another story of an international trip associated with an APTA convention. .....The trip this time was from Seattle to Vancouver BC using Sounder equipment. The ride was along the Puget Sound most of the way with the rails at water edge. ..... Scenery was terrific. .....

The host asked all non US or Canadian passengers to go to the head coach as they had a more thorough customs inspection. Canadian customs officials boarded in Blaine and went through the train checking documents. I have always found Canadian customs oficials being very courteous. You do not want to tell them that you are a consultant as this entails a 45 minute question period in the back room at the entry airport.

When we arrived at the outskirts of Vancouver the train went about 10 MPH until we arrived at the station next to the harbor. This is the same station that the Canadian uses. .....

Siberianmo, in case you were wondering about me I had the pleasure of serving on the board of directors for DART for seven years .......

I've had the pleasure of traveling along Puget Sound south from Seattle to Portland, OR. Wonderful scenery ....... Haven't had the opportunity (yet) to go north to Vancouver from Seattle - one day, yes - one day!

By the way, I'm unfamiliar with "Sounder equipment," please elaborate.

In a life lived some time ago (mine) I had an occasion (or two .....) to visit those Canadian Custom's "back rooms."[:)] Really nothing ominous - but I was engaged in rather repetitive trips between southern California and Vancouver, BC - the badge and credentials in my attache case most times caused the detour![:)] One meets lots of interesting people that way!

The train station in Vancouver, BC that you refer to is the Pacific Central Station, one of my favorites and a great place for not only starting travel, but for picture taking.

Here's a photo you may enjoy - click to enlarge it.



I'd love to communicate with you regarding your DART experiences - how about by e-mail?

Thanx for your contributions![tup][tup]

morseman

QUOTE: PARTIALL QUOTED .....

Murals from a Great Canadian train quality paperback 9"x10" bilingual
191 pages Author: Ian Thorn Published by Via Rail Canada
copublished by Libre Expression Date: 1986 No price marked in book. .....

This book describes all 18 of the Park observation cars and the 18 Canadian
artists who were commissioned to paint the murals and maps of the cars
Each of the cars were named after a provincial or federal park and the
pictures depicted these parks. They were paid $1,400 for their work .....

This book gives a brief note re Budd Co, Zephyr cars & the diference
between Zephyr & CP cars. A few sketches of the cars. Beautiful
illustrations of the murals & notes on the artists and the constraints
put on them as to the size of the murals to fit the cars

All in all a great book & I also will be dropping a line to Via Public Relations
Dept. to see where I can get a copy for myself.

THANX for the info - this is a "must" book for me too! I'll begin my search and should I locate one, I'll let you know. Appreciate your doing the same.{tup][tup][:)]

METRO

QUOTE: I've ridden on the GO more times than I could count haha. One of my favourite sights in all of railroading has to be seeing a GO Transit F7ACPU pulling into the station, they were really amazing creatures. Another of my memories of GO is back when they had their F40s or as everyone called them the "screamers" because they had to run so hard to pull a full 10 car consist and keep the HEP going. Standing on the platform you could hear those comming miles away.

This Summer I'm going to be taking the Enterprise from Toronto to Montréal. I've heard it's an excellent train and was wondering if anyone's ever had any experience on it that was less than stellar?

METRO

[#welcome] METRO! Happy that you've joined us and thanx for the contribution.

By the way, I haven't traveled the "Enterprise" yet - but one of these days ......
Generally when I travel to eastern Canada, I fly up to Toronto and take VIA1 to Montreal where I then connect with the "Ocean" bound for Nova Scotia where friends and family await in Halifax.

Here's a picture you may enjoy taken a couple of years ago from our hotel window in Toronto. Click to enlarge it.



Well, that's it for today ..... gotta get going and it was enjoyable "talking" to all of you!

[trolleyboy]

dave a cpouple of books are good for NS&T info as well.The only one inprint is Great Lake Trolley's from morning sun. excellent book,it covers the NS&T,L&PS and the Grand River Railway and The Lake Erie and Northern.It's aslo got chicago detriot cleveland and any other major US and Canadian city that ran street or Radial electric lines. Two specific NS&T books pop up once in a while. The NS&T by John Mills(our museums founding member #1)and the NS&T story by Andy Panko.both are long out of print but do turn up occationally at used book stores and swap meets,possiblt e-bay as well. Rob

[trolleyboy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

How much diesel freight operates today on all these lines? Does the CN still have freight to Murray Bay?

Did the Niagra St. Catherins and Toronto have any Stillwell-type cars?

The Quebec steel single-end motors denitely were not Stillwell-designed.

Hey Dave not sure about the Murray bay question. The NS&T didn't have any stillwells.Theirs was a real hodgepodge.Some homebuilt some Maguire-cummings ,Preston cars ,Brill built stuff you name it.One interesting set was the 300 series used originally as city service cars in St Catharines and N Falls then later used on the interurban runs.These cars were Cincinati car company curved siders,similar to alot of US city cars.An interesting note is all the NS&T equipment had full height interurban wire so even the city cars had height extending plateforms to raise their trolley poles.No pans on their stuff even the steeple cabs and wood freight motors used poles.I beleave that most of the Quebec cars were built by Canadian car and Foundry and national steel car(yes they used to build steel traction equipment.same national steel car that builds freight cars out of Hamilton ontario today)They had some Preston Car and Coach equipment as well. Preston specialized in wood but did make alot of steel cars as well. Rob

[METRO]

I've ridden on the GO more times than I could count haha. One of my favourite sights in all of railroading has to be seeing a GO Transit F7ACPU pulling into the station, they were really amazing creatures. Another of my memories of GO is back when they had their F40s or as everyone called them the "screamers" because they had to run so hard to pull a full 10 car consist and keep the HEP going. Standing on the platform you could hear those comming miles away.

This Summer I'm going to be taking the Enterprise from Toronto to Montréal. I've heard it's an excellent train and was wondering if anyone's ever had any experience on it that was less than stellar?

~METRO

[morseman]

Murals from a Great Canadian Train

To Siberainmo: This is a book I had borrowed from our neighbor who is not interested in trains at all but received it from his father. I managed to borrow it again just before he went of
vacation

Murals from a Great Canadian train quality paperback 9"x10" bilingual
191 pages Author: Ian Thorn Published by Via Rail Canada
copublished by Libre Expression Date: 1986 No price marked in book.

Excerpt from the forward The Canadian was & still is one of the great
train adventures of the world

This book describes all 18 of the Park observation cars and the 18 Canadian
artists who were commissioned to paint the murals and maps of the cars
Each of the cars were named after a provincial or federal park and the
pictures depicted these parks. They were paid $1,400 for their work

The mural lounge is not large and years of tobacco smoke, discolored
protective varnish, in addition, condensation from winndows, spilled
drinks and above all persons"s heads and shoulders rubbing against
the murals all had an adverse effect

This book gives a brief note re Budd Co, Zephyr cars & the diference
between Zephyr & CP cars. A few sketches of the cars. Beautiful
illustrations of the murals & notes on the artists and the constraints
put on them as to the size of the murals to fit the cars

All in all a great book & I also will be dropping a line to Via Public Relations
Dept. to see where I can get a copy for myself.

[Anonymous]

Allow me to tell another story of an international trip associated with an APTA convention. Again my wife and I attended the APTA convention in Seattle. The trip this time was from Seattle to Vancouver BC using Sounder equipment. The ride was along the Puget Sound most of the way with the rails at water edge. To see the ground you really had to squash your face against the window. Scenery was terrific. Saw several places I could be very happy living along the coast even with a train track in your front yard.

Our special train was competing with the regular Amtrak Talgo train. Due to the Amtrak train having a lower center of gravity we had to pull on a spur to let the Amtrak train overtake us then back on to the main to resume our journey.

The host asked all non US or Canadian passengers to go to the head coach as they had a more thorough customs inspection. Canadian customs officials boarded in Blaine and went through the train checking documents. I have always found Canadian customs oficials being very courteous. You do not want to tell them that you are a consultant as this entails a 45 minute question period in the back room at the entry airport.

When we arrived at the outskirts of Vancouver the train went about 10 MPH until we arrived at the station next to the harbor. This is the same station that the Canadian uses. One of our hosts asked a select few of us (including my wife and I) to join them for lunch at the Fairmont Hotel next to the station. Since it was raining quite hard this was a good item. They also chartered a bus for our small group to return to Seattle. At first the thought of missing the train ride and traveling on a (*&^%$ bus did not sit too well with me, but it turned out for the best. BN decided to put a freight car on the ground and the excursion train instead of arriving back at 6 PM actually arrived at 2 AM. We did attend the evening function in Seattle and were bright eyed the next day where those on the train were not so lucky.

And Seattle has GREAT coffee.

Siberianmo, in case you were wondering about me I had the pleasure of serving on the board of directors for DART for seven years hence my APTA convention trips. I have several other convention trips I could write about, but, alas, they are not Canadian.

[Anonymous]

Fir SIBERIANMO
I share your frustrations with American Airlines. I go to the old country (United Kingdom) several times a year in my job as an oil and gas consultant. I have been riding on British Airways for several years rather than the local boys (American Airlines). Just got tired of the surly attitude even after paying $7,200 for a business class ticket. Since they have about 80% of the service out of DFW I am still forced to use them for domestic travel. Even at their worst they beat walking to Calgary.

Back to the purpose of this thread:

Several years ago my wife and I attended a joint APTA/CUTA/UITP convention in Toronto. At these conventions the host always plans a rail excursion for one day. Our excursion for this convention was a trip to Niagra Falls. We left Tronto station on a train consisting of 15 GO Transit Bombardier bilevel coaches. No problem boarding in Toronto as the station is quite large. After a beautiful ride to Niagra Falls Ontario disembarking was a little different. Niagra Falls has a small country style station with short platforms. Only 4 coaches could be at the platform at one time so the train was jogged four coaches at a time until everyone was off. We were on the last set of coaches to be unloaded. When I stepped off the train I looked down the track towards the engine. The engine and the first two coaches were across the international bridge and in the United States. Do not know what the customs boys did with this partial international crossing. The return was the same, only in reverse.

[siberianmo]

QUOTE: The groundrules are pretty simple:

Share your thoughts about Canadian passenger railroading - past and present. Let's not bash one another because of differences in opinion and of course, nationalities. Above all - keep politics out of our discussions.

FOR NEWCOMERS: May I suggest that you browse the pages from start to finish? You may find something that will enhance what you are about to post, plus you'll find out "where we've been."

Ladies and Gentlemen, let's talk Canadian passenger trains!

===========================================================
Good morning all! As I begin my limited epistle, I note that we are now up to 82 postings and 892 readings. We've also "turned a page," now on 5. Not bad![tup] Let's keep 'er humming.[:)]

trolleyboy and DaveKlepper - Looks like you two have hit it off well with the trolley discussions! Awright[tup]

selector

QUOTE: Siberianmo, it worked!! (?) Must have been a server problem when I last tried it.

Thanks.

Maybe we could ride it together some time.

Crandell - Let's plan on it! Carol and I are overdue for a trip to Vancouver Island - so when an itinerary falls into place, I'll be sure to communicate with you far enough in advance so that we can ride the "Malahat."

wrwatkins

QUOTE: The vast majority of the posts to this thread are related to eastern lines. I would like to talk a little about the western part notably BC Rail, Skeena, and Malahat. A couple of years ago my wife and I attended the APTA convention in Las Vegas. After the convention we took the circle tour on BC Rail. True to fashion American Airlines would not let us change our Dallas-Las Vegas RT ticket to include a flight to Vancouver so we flew back to Dallas then on to Vancouver. Talk about negative customer service.

The next day we went to the BC Rail station in North Vancouver for the last run of their circle tour. The train consisted of five Budd RDCs as far as Lillooet where three of the cars were turned to return to Vancouver. Saw the new "rail buses" on the siding that were to begin providing the only access to some of the First Citizen towns around Seton and Anderson Lakes. Salmon were spawning in the Frazer river and it was quite a sight to see them jumping in the streams.

The first night we stayed in Prince George arriving after dark. The next day we went to the VIA station to catch the Skeena to Prince Rupert. The only marr on the trip was a car derailment on the CN line and we were bussed to Smithers where we boarded the Skeena. Not a total loss as the best scenery is west of Smithers. Rode in the dome car and had a wonderful view. Meals were served at our seats on all trains. Arrived in Prince Rupert at sundown. The ride along the fjord that the Skeena empties into was teriffic. Had two days to explore Prince Rupert which included a harbor cruise around the island.

We then took the BC ferry Queen of the North to Port Hardy on the northern end of Vancouver island. Overnighted there and were bussed to Courtney-the railhead of the E&N railroad. Crossed over several lumber railroads on the bus ride to Courtney.

Now this is the POST I have been "begging for" - see previous requests! - THANX for the submission and hope you stick around! [tup][tup][tup]

By the way, you DON'T want to get me started with American Airlines "customer disservice"![banghead][censored]

daveklepper

QUOTE: Posted: Today, 02:26:29
How much diesel freight operates today on all these lines? Does the CN still have freight to Murray Bay?

Did the Niagra St. Catherins and Toronto have any Stillwell-type cars?

The Quebec steel single-end motors denitely were not Stillwell-designed.

Any "takers" out there? Note that Dave cleverly skirted the "freight taboo" by including passenger info within his post! Nice touch!![:D]
================================================

That's it for today! See you all as the posts warrant.[tup]

[daveklepper]

How much diesel freight operates today on all these lines? Does the CN still have freight to Murray Bay?

Did the Niagra St. Catherins and Toronto have any Stillwell-type cars?

The Quebec steel single-end motors denitely were not Stillwell-designed.

[trolleyboy]

Dave we have restored L&PS #8 back to her 1915 as built appearance.If you went to the museum site the picture of her was only about 1/3 the way through a rigorous 15 year restoration.As delivered to us in the early 70's the windows had been plated in. The car was heavy enough that it was used until 1960 as a freight locomotive moving coal cars out of Port Stanley harbour.Since we've finished her restoration the upper curved stained glass is back in and the stained glass panels are her original set ,save for one which we had reproduced.One of our members bought them at an auction in the 60's and had them on hand for the project.You're right not all their cars were jewetts we have trailor #3 as well. It is a wooden Preston car and Coach product. Another interesting can. radial was the Niagara St. Catharines and Toronto. You could pick up the radial in Port colbourne on lake Erie and run down through Welland niagara falls Thorald and St Kitts and end up in Port Dalhousie on lake Onatario where they droped you off at lakeside park.In the park you could enjoy the pier and the midway or Board a CN steamship to cross the lake to Toronto.Quite an operation they ran the radials and the street railways in ST Catharines and Niagara falls On.Ran electric freight service as well but that's not important here. St Catharines is my original home town so the lines have some extra meaning for me.I have to live vicariously through my Dad's and aunt's and uncles recollections of the electric operations though because I only remember the diesel freight service left by CN on their rails. Till later Rob

[andrewjonathon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wrwatkins

There is a glimmer of hope. I have heard that a tourist line is considering running passenger trains over part of the old BC Rail line.

Yes, you are correct. The same company that operates the tourist trains between Vancouver and Calgary/Jasper will start running trains on the former BC line between Vancouver and Jasper (via Prince George) in 2006. I certainly hope they are as successful with the new operation as they have been with the old trains.

Here is a link to the CN annoucement of the new service.
http://www.cn.ca/news/newsreleases/2004/en_News20040903.shtml

[Anonymous]

Good Afternoon all.

My [2c] on passenger trains in the late 60's.

As a young new entry Naval engineering Officer, I had many opportunities to travel across Canada from Vancouver to Halifax and back on both CP and CN rails. I have to say that CP offered the very best of everything though the competition was fierced, I believe CP still came on top. Mind you we had to change from one to the other in either Montreal or Toronto which was always sort of pain but overall train was the way to travel and have fun doing it.

Ah! the good old days...

Happy MRRing

[Anonymous]

The vast majority of the posts to this thread are related to eastern lines. I would like to talk a little about the western part notably BC Rail, Skeena, and Malahat. A couple of years ago my wife and I attended the APTA convention in Las Vegas. After the convention we took the circle tour on BC Rail. True to fashion American Airlines would not let us change our Dallas-Las Vegas RT ticket to include a flight to Vancouver so we flew back to Dallas then on to Vancouver. Talk about negative customer service.

The next day we went to the BC Rail station in North Vancouver for the last run of their circle tour. The train consisted of five Budd RDCs as far as Lillooet where three of the cars were turned to return to Vancouver. Saw the new "rail buses" on the siding that were to begin providing the only access to some of the First Citizen towns around Seton and Anderson Lakes. Salmon were spawning in the Frazer river and it was quite a sight to see them jumping in the streams.

The first night we stayed in Prince George arriving after dark. The next day we went to the VIA station to catch the Skeena to Prince Rupert. The only marr on the trip was a car derailment on the CN line and we were bussed to Smithers where we boarded the Skeena. Not a total loss as the best scenery is west of Smithers. Rode in the dome car and had a wonderful view. Meals were served at our seats on all trains. Arrived in Prince Rupert at sundown. The ride along the fjord that the Skeena empties into was teriffic. Had two days to explore Prince Rupert which included a harbor cruise around the island.

We then took the BC ferry Queen of the North to Port Hardy on the northern end of Vancouver island. Overnighted there and were bussed to Courtney-the railhead of the E&N railroad. Crossed over several lumber railroads on the bus ride to Courtney.

The next day we took the Malahat to Victoria. The Courtney daily. Scenery was great along the E&N, although the grass was getting a little high between the rails.

Spent two days in Victoria, one of my favorite towns. Stayed in the Empress and overlooked tha harbor. The tour included a visit to Buchert Garden which is heaven for anyone who likes plants. Been there several times. Like all good things it came to an end as we took the bus across the sound and on to Vancouver airport and the flight back to reality.

I highly recommend this trip to anyone who likes mountains, rivers, trees,or trains. But, alas, it can never be repeated as BC Rail dropped passenger service one week after our trip. We were on their last tour and it will live in our hearts and minds for ever. There is a glimmer of hope. I have heard that a tourist line is considering running passenger trains over part of the old BC Rail line.

[daveklepper]

Stillwell was a free-lance railcar designer. The give-away that the London and Port Stanley cars were stillwell designed is the roof, not quite a cleristory-monitor roof, but one that gives great buffing strength to the car body. His first design were the Erie's first steel cars of 1905, and they were built for the Erie for the next 20 years, like the P70's for the Pennsy. The Hudson and Manhattan "black cars", the original BMT "Steels" (B-Type family), the New York Wewstchester and Boston cars (many ending up in Boston commuter service on the NH), and the L&PS cars were not built by the same builder, but were all Stillwell designs. The Erie commuter car design (they also had long distance Stillwells) was also used by the Chicago and Eastern Illinois and others as well. All his designs originally had arch windows, but my memory is that the L&PS cars, like many others, had the upper part of the windows, the arches, covered by a straight steel letterboard in modernization and/or rebuilding.