CANADIAN PASSENGER RAILROADS - Let's talk! BYOB ........

[siberianmo]

There are lots of pleasures in life, some we can speak about in public and some better saved for another time and place! I love passenger trains.

For me, talking about passenger trains and the railroading that goes with it, capativates my interests. Of course, riding them is the next best thing to ....... well, use your imagination.

For the past 15 years, I have become a fan of Canadian railroading, and in particular VIA Rail and the now defunct, BC Rail passenger operations.

Are there sufficient numbers of "us" out there who can make this topic an ongoing thing? Hope so ..........

The groundrules are pretty simple:

Share your thoughts about Canadian passenger railroading - past and present. Let's not bash one another because of differences in opinion and of course, nationalities. Above all - keep politics out of our discussions.

FOR NEWCOMERS: May I suggest that you browse the pages from start to finish? You may find something that will enhance what you are about to post, plus you'll find out "where we've been."


Ladies and Gentlemen, let's talk Canadian passenger trains!

[Anonymous]

I would love to take the CP tour train that MWH wrote about recently in TRAINS. Has anyone else out there taken any of these tours?

Is VIA ridership strong and growing? Corridor and LD trains?

[siberianmo]

First response to our first question!

Let me clarify a bit, though: The Canadian Pacific "Canadian" featured in the Spring 2005 issue of "Classic Trains" was not a "tour train." That train - the "Canadian" was a regularly scheduled train crossing most of the North American continent.

Today, VIA Rail operates its version of the "Canadian," which has much of the same equipment (other than loco's) as did the CP. The VIA Rail "Canadian" runs on Canadian National trackage, whereas the CP ran on its own - so they are mostly different routes. The cars are the Budd stainless steel beauties of days gone by - EXCEPT - those days still remain in Canadian passenger operations!

Now to the question: Yes - my wife and I have taken the round trip between Toronto and Vancouver on two different occassions. One time in May and the other departing Toronto on New Year's Eve. Both trips were absolutely memorable with the scenery as outstanding as anyone could want - well, perhaps not just anyone! For us - we were very pleased with the four 3 day/3 night segments and plan to repeat the journey in the not to distant future. Check out www.viarail.ca for first hand info about their trains and of course, the "Canadian." By the way, those cross-Canada trains only have departures three days per week in each direction - and are usually full, especially if you want a bedroom and moreso in the spring and summer.

Sorry about my expounding on the word, "tours," but when it comes to regularly scheduled passenger operations - there is a difference.

For those wanting to tour the Canadian Rockies - check out the "Rocky Mountaineer" site - they are tour operators and charge the prices that go with it. I'll take VIA Rail any day, any time - "real" trains with "real" crews and very "real " passengers.

I haven't seen the statistics for 2004 VIA Rail ridership, but when I do - I'll post them here.

Hopefully someone who travels the "corridor" can respond more accurately to your inquiry.

Thanx for your question!

[dehusman]

BYOB?

Bring Your Own Budd?

Dave H.

[athelney]

Yes the VIA - "Canadian " is alive & well including it's all stainless Budd consist - It is quite the sight - especially in the summer when a full consist and 3 loco's are in use . this is the 'real' thing- a regular scheduled train and not a tour - although the Rocky Mountaineer is also a great sight for passenger fans.
I rode the CP Canadian back in the 1970's - Toronto to Vancouver - and partly because of it's great route & equipment - being able to see Canada from the ground - caused me to emigrate from the UK.

[siberianmo]

For dehusman: BYOB - the definition is in the mind of the beholder! Budd Light would be just fine, though. Actually, I'm a Coors Light kinda guy - but then again, I really enjoy O'Keefe's Ale of Nova Scotia, and then there's ...........

For athelney: That trip in 1970 must have ben a treat. My model railroad is modeled after our experiences while traveling with VIA Rail. We have family and friends in Halifax, so the "Ocean" is our preferred method of travel. In fact, we rode one of the last "Atlantic" consists en route Halifax from Montreal via Maine.

Thanx for the interest and keep it going!

[Modelcar]

....BYOB: Be Your Own Boss.....

[siberianmo]

Modelcar: Good one - but, where's the "beef"? Nothing about Canadian Passenger railroads!!

[daveklepper]

The Canadian is the nearest thing running to recreating the old California Zephyr experience, and as the TRAINS article indicated, the obs-lounge-sleeper car is the same design.

[martin.knoepfel]

There used to be a passenger-train to the Hudson Bay. Is it still running?

[tatans]

Yes there still is a train to Churchill on the Hudson Bay, From Winnipeg to Churchill, VIA runs it , It's 1700 km. (1000 miles), there are sleepers & dining available, and it will stop anywhere along the line if you want to get off and go hunting, The "Canadian" travels on CN lines which is a bit farther north (not much) than C.P.R. lines (remember, over 80% of all Canadians live within 200 miles of the U.S. border) so you are a long, long way from the North. Through the Rockies in places the CN & CP parallel each in the river canyons, usually on opposite sides of the river---quite a site ! ! Train travel in Canada is expensive.

[Anonymous]

I should've been more detailed. Was talking about the Royal Canadian Pacific article in February TRAINS. Operated by the railroad itself. In the grand railroad tradition.
http://www8.cpr.ca/cms/English/RCP/default.htm

The VIA website shows a train, The Hudson Bay, between Winnipeg and Churchill (Hudson Bay).
http://www.viarail.ca/trains/en_trai_prai_wich.html

[tatans]

"Royal Canadian Pacific" does a loop to Revelstoke south to Crow's Nest pass and east back to Calgary, 5 days for $5500.00, or take a one day trip to Field B.C. for $750.00 (u.s.) (they do feed you) These trips are not for the peasants.

[morseman]

If you are interested in the Canadian "Rocky Mountaineer"
Go to coloradorailcar.com A good description of new
equipment the Mountaineer is purchasing.

If only the CP Rail & later Via had promoted their
trains properly they could have made a good investment
on their money as Rocky Mountaineer is doing.

[Anonymous]

I rode coach on the VIA "Canadian" from Vancouver to Toronto in May 2000. Drank lots of water (and some of the other stuff, too) so I'd stay awake during the day to see the scenery and sleep better at night. It was four hours late getting into Toronto but the King Street trolley to my motel was still running.

[tatans]

Thanks for the info. now I know who is running the Rocky Mounaineer in Canada, it's those guys from Denver(not to be confused with the C.P.R.)

[siberianmo]

Now, this is the type of interaction I had hoped for! Let's keep it going - remembering of course that we are talking about CANADIAN PASSENGER RAILROADS. From there, who knows where the conversations may go?!

I'm not a great fan of those tourist trains - although if they are the only one's who can get you from point A to B, well then - I'd spring for the big bucks. Unless and until VIA Rail gets out of the cross-Canada business, I'll be a "frequent rail rider" with them.

Comparisons are great when it comes to passenger trains, whether of today or the past. For me and what I have been able to ascertain, there just are no valid comparisons to what Canadian Pacific managed to put together some 50 years ago with their "Canadian." What a great trip. From all the photo's I've seen and books I've read, about the only criticism I've come up with is that they didn't run enough dome cars. Every now and then you'd see two (aside from the Park Car, of course) - but mainly just one about 4 cars back from the loco's. That seems to be the practice today - having traveled that route on two round trips (Toronto - Vancouver) in spring and winter.

About the REAL "Polar Express" - VIA Rail's "Hudson Bay" to Churchill is a trip that I have wanted to take for years. From what I have been told, this is the type of trip that will quickly determine one's love for trains! Mine runs deep - so one of these days ......... hopefully soon!

By the way, any of you Canadian rail fans ever had the opportunity of traveling aboard the Turbo Trains?

[passengerfan]

Rode the Turbos many times between Toronto and Montreal when I lived in Toronto. Remember boarding the morning Turbo from Toronto one AM in the winter and was traveling turboclub so got in the dome expecting to see the engineer as their was only a clear plastic set of doors separating the engind compartment from the parlor seats in the dome. To my surprise their was a MLW FPA-4 coupled to the turbo for the run to Montreal that morning. Right on schedule the train deprted and the car attendant let me know that quite often in the winter the train ran this way as one or more of the turbines was inoperative and that fine light snow so common to the area was expected, apparently the fine snow played havoc with the turbines. That morning the turbines were providing only the hotel power for the train and all propulsion was supplied by the single FPA-4. One thing I discovered right away was the diesel electric accelerated faster than the turbo did and when slowing to cross over to the other main the diesel regained its speed faster. The train arrived in Montreeal two minutes early. I learned later that because of the light weight of the Turbo train the diesels had little problem keeping the turbo on the advertised. The schedule was 4 hours 30 minutes at the time. The Turbos only shaved 29 minutes off the previous Rapido scheddules that were operated with conventional passenger equipment and diesels.
I also had the pleasure of riding the Newfie Bullet the year before it was discontinued and that is one memory I will treasure forever.
I have traveled many times on the CN and CPR trains across Canada from one end to the other and never had a disappointing trip. I was fortunate to experience CN when the Red White and Blue fares were all the rage and the majority of trains were running full or close to full. I give CN a gold star for trying but alas it wasn't to be.

[siberianmo]

Passengerfan:

Thanx for that information! Sounds like you have more than just a bit of knowledge about the subject and it is appreciated.

A long time ago I had an opportunity to travel between Argentia, Newfoundland and St. John's by train. Unfortunately, I was unable to get away from my ship for the amount of time required for the round trip. Looking back on it, how close I came to adding some RR history to my experiences. By the way, was that the "Newfie Bullet" you referred to?
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Here's a bit of info about the Turbo Train for those who are interested - got it from
http://www.freewebs.com/rail/turbotrain.htm:

The United Aircraft Turbo Train built by Sikorsky, also known as the Turbo in Canada,
is my favorite passenger train.

Introduced in the United States in late 1960 and in Canada in 1968 the Turbo holds the
Canadian speed record. The United Aircraft (Sikorsky) Turbotrain reached 170.8 MPH in
December 1967, and a CN Turbo reached 140.6 MPH on April 1976, the current Canadian speed record. The American Turbo was used between Boston and New York. In Canada the Turbo was mainly used in the Toronto - Montreal corridor.

The Turbotrain was powered by a series of aircraft [gas-turbine] engines and was build out of aluminium skin. To keep passengers upright in curves the Turbo was equipped with a pendulous banking suspension. The Turbotrain was designed for high-speed performance over existing rail infrastructure in the US North-East corridor. The Turbo had guided axles, which enabled the train to take curves at speeds 40% greater than conventional trains. Turbo service in the US started in 1968, but due a variety of technical problems the Amtrak Turbo's were phased-out in 1972.

The Canadian CN / VIA Rail Turbo were in operation until 1982. VIA Rail retired the Turbo in October of that year. The two remaining train set were later scrapped in New Jersey.

Unfortunately none survived for display in Museums.
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TomTrain:

I recently rode VIA Rail between Toronto and Montreal (round trip) and the total time for each journey was about 5 hours - probably way less than the Turbo of old. The trip is enjoyable and when you go VIA1, well the amenities are fine too!
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Keep the comments coming ..... CANADIAN PASSENGER RAILROADING is what we are talking about!

[passengerfan]

The train I remember between St. Johns and Argentia was a mixed train that one day ran from St. Johns to Argentia then laid over and operated the next day from Argentia to Bonavista traversing the only complete look on the narrow gauge road. I dropped a Camera lens cover off the back of the coach/caboose while filming the loop and the crew of the train offered to back up and look for it. The crew actually stayed on the caboose - coach combination for the overnight in Argentia. After turning in Bonavista the train returned to St. Johns. The thing I remember most about the Newfie Bullet was that the cars did not have tightlock couplers and the cars were constantly banging back and forth due to the slack action and the profile of the track. In spite of this I was in a sleeper and got a very good nights sleep. I meant some of the finest railroaders on my Newfoundland trip i ever found anywhere. Cab rides were with the blessing of the railroad as they knew its days were numbered. And two years later it was shut down.

[trainboyH16-44]

I love the CPR's Canadian in the days before action red, not that I don't like action red. When VIA took over, that was the low point. It is better now because it is back to the all Budd consist(Is there some change that I don't know about?) Remember when it was powered by both FP9s and F40s, and there was CP and CN equipment? that was ugly. I like the all Budd consists, but the refurbished CPR Heavyweights wern't bad, either. Now if we could get it back on CPR tracks past my house, ALMOST all would be right in the world.(HAH! not by a long shot)
Trainboy

[passengerfan]

The CN train in the late 1960's early 1970's was a pretty good train as well. The CN SUPER CONTINENTAL featured a full length dome former Milwaukee Road a 48 seat dining car and even had an observationb car unfortunately it was a remodeled Fort series streamlined and operated mid train next to the diner reserved for the sleeping car passengers. The CN train at the time provided nightly Bingo games in the diner open to all passengers and the prizes were combs CN playing cards and breakfasts in the diner. The CN train was clean and comfortable while rival CP CANADIAN cars were becoming threadbare and beginning to show their age. It wasn't until Via Rail Canada that the cars were completely refurbished and rebuilt and once again became something to brag about. Sure the Government operated CN at the time but they did a pretty good job of getting passengerrs to ride the trains once again. Those Red White and Blue fares and all of the TV advertising filled most trains I rode at that time, and many ran with extra cars.
CN filled the lounge cars with thirsty patrons as well. Very clever how every table was set with the saltiest pretzels I have ever tasted and they were free. Oh did I mention you probably drank twice as much due to the salty pretzels. Amtrak could learn a lesson from CN on marketing.
CN sleeping cars were built by Pullman and were comfortable and quiet and the red white and Blue fares applied to them as well.
The OCEAN between Montreal and Halifax operated with former Milwaukee Skytop lounge Observations providing an excellent overnight trip to and from the Nova Scotia's largest city. The SCOTIAN another train between Montreal and Halifax at the time split into two sections eastbound at Truro, Nova Scotian with one section continuing to Halifax and the other continuing to the Sydney where connections were made with the ferries to Newfoundland. Overnight service between Montreal and Toronto was very popular at that time with the CAVALIER often operating as many as twenty cars the majority sleepers. Many business people traveled this train as it departed after eleven at night and arrived just before eight the next morning in the opposite city. Passengers were allowed to board the sleeping cars after nine PM and could retire or go to the lounge for a nightcap. The lounge was usually packed until well after midnight.
Anothet transcontinental train operated by the CN at the time was the PANORAMA actually two separate trains one between Toronto/Montreal and Winnipeg the other between Winnipeg and Vancouver. There was nearly a twelve hour layover in Winnipeg if you chose to ride this train from east to west. The CN operated a connecting train from Jasper to Prince Rupert that was nicknamed the Rupert Rocket for its lack of speed.

[andrewjonathon]

What was the deal with the red, white and blue fares? It sounds like it should be an American promotion.

[passengerfan]

Red fares were the most expensive and applied to the busiest travel days. Blue Fares were 1/3 off and were for days not so popular , and the white days were half off for the least popular travel days. That is from memory it may have been just the opposite as I get older my mind plays tricks on me sometimes. One thing the Red White and Blue fares accomplished was it filled trains and the CN purchased many used surplus cars from the US and filled them too.

[andrewjonathon]

Thanks. It sounds like a great promotional idea. Amtrak should revive it, it sounds patriotic, it simple to understand and if it fills trains that would otherwise run empty it would also increase revenue.

[siberianmo]

Thanx to all for your contributions to this topic! I know this is getting a bit repetitive on my part - but reading the overwhelming majority of submissions is everything I hoped we could make of this subject.
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I'm nearing my 67th birthday and am somewhat of a late starter as a practicing rail fan. I spent 32 years in the military with very few opportunities to do the things that are now available to me in retirement. We have all been (or still are) there; you know - raising families - working to support them - paying the bills - keeping up with the Jones' (whoever in they are!!), etc. With all of that way behind me - I can now focus on what's important in life: my wife - our dog - and of course - TRAINS!
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Passengerfan: Your experiences and willingness to share them has simply made my day - so to speak. Just reading about those trips you have taken has given me some pretty vivid pictures of how nice it must have been when CN and CP were rivals and the trains were fast, frequent and full.

Am I correct when I say that the Newfoundland railroad was narrow gauge? Again, in the era I am speaking of (late 1950's until its demise) I was more of a sailor than rail rider!
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For trainboy:

It was just last year that I was engaged in conversation with some people in Canada who were convinced that VIA Rail was in fact going to get back to the CP tracks.

However, Ottawa may have changed all of that with the budget games that seemingly never end -either in your country or ours. (Enough: our "ground rules prohibit political stuff!!) - My apologies!!

Anyway, I too prefer the CP's maroon and grey with the beaver shield - looks great! As a matter of fact I have a 9 car consist of them in one of my wall mounted display cases - all Budd stainless steel powered by EMD E-8's "A/A." It will be put on my "Can-Am" HO layout for a commerative run on the 50th anniversary of the Canadian!!

Thanx for your input!
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For andrewjonathan:

Amtrak already does a version of the red-white-blue fares, except they go with what they term as "buckets." Pretty much the same idea - different fares for different periods of demand. But, I do agree - IF Amtrak is to continue and IF Amtrak can get the serious stuff attended to (on time performance - equipment repair, upgrade and replacement) then the promotions people could use that red-white-blue "hook" for fare advertisements.

I could expound somewhat on Amtrak - but since I started this discussion subject, I'd be breaking my "groundrules" again!

Thanx for your input!
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EVERY COUPLE OF DAYS, I'M GOING TO REPEAT THE GROUNRULES: Here we go again!

The groundrules are pretty simple:

Share your thoughts about Canadian passenger railroading - past and present. Let's not bash one another because of differences in opinion and of course, nationalities. Above all - keep politics out of our discussions.

Ladies and Gentlemen, let's talk Canadian passenger trains!

[daveklepper]

I had many wonderful experiences riding passenger trains in Canada. I did ride the CP Canadian, about 1969, but only from Brandon to Winnepeg in a coach, about the least scenic portion of the line. Was returnomg from a business visit to Brandon, returning to the Chicago area with the Winnepeg Lmtd to St, Paul, Morning Hiawatha to Milwaukee, and the Afternooon Hiawatha to Glenside, later taxi to O'Hare to pick up my car. Same year rode the Newfy Bullet in an upper birth both ways, and our group had a business car on the rear with limited available access to the observation platform. The Ocean both ways to North Sidney in a roomette was fine, also, ditto the International from Chicago to Tornoto. Once connected to the Ocean by riding the mixed train from Charlottetown, PEI to Moncton, with postwar lightweight coach, freight cars, and GP-7 or GP-9 all on the car ferry, the loco on the middle track, of course, and lunch served upstairs in the ferry's diningroom.

[passengerfan]

Newfoundland Railway was 3' 6" and when built they paid the builder by the mile that is why the route between St. Johns and Port Aux Basques was so long.
Imentioned earlier about the crew layover in Argentia it was actually Argentia Junction where the main line and branch line split to Argentia.
I found the entire Island to be a great place to visit. Lots to see such as Gander airport, The hill in St. Johns where Marconi sent his first trans Atlantic transmission. On the other side of the Island theiir was a U S airforce base a Stephenville.
The Port Aux Basques shops were interesting as the ferries that brought railroad cars to the Island were equipped with standard guage tracks and they had to be changed to narrow gauge before leaving the port. Their was a long building where the standard gauge cars entered and their trucks were changed out to narrow gauge for their time on the Island. The trucks were stored in the building and the same trucks were returned to that particular car before the ferry ride back to the mainland.

[siberianmo]

DaveKlepper

QUOTE: The Ocean both ways to North Sidney in a roomette was fine, also .....

Hey Dave - learned something new. I had no idea that CN ran the "Ocean Limited" to North Sydney, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. Do you recall the years - approximate will do. From what I recall (but not by first hand account - rather from what I've heard from friends in Sydney) they used to connect at Truro, Nova Scotia for the westbound "Ocean Limited" or other trans. Anyway, perhaps it was a through car service you experienced on what I believe was a three per day schedule between Halifax and Sydney/N. Sydney.

Anyone "out there" know for sure?
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THE BRAS D'OR EXCURSION TRAIN:

In 2000, my wife and I traveled VIA Rail's Bras d'Or between Halifax and Sydney. This first class excursion train was in its inaugural year and turned out to be a very enjoyable trip for the 17 - yes 17 - paying passengers on that August sunny day. The consist was made up of a baggage car - coach - Skyline dome and Park Car observation dome. Food service at your seat - and it was excellent. On board entertainment was also provided - story tellers, dancers, etc. Really quite an experience, but a rather long day - 12 hours I believe from boarding to arrival.

That train was supposedly going to be a two year experiment to ascertain interest in marketing a new venture of VIA Rail and Cape Breton business groups in bringing more tourism to Sydney. The two years have elapsed and the train ran last season - May through October.

There never really was an attempt to revitalize regularly scheduled passenger service between Halifax and Sydney, as many in Sydney had falsely believed. To this day - some friends of mine who are in business - are dearly disappointed in the absence of a viable method of travel between where they are and the rest of the world. If you have ever spent time in that area - it is both a wonderful place and foreboding one as well. Only the hale and hardy need apply!

Anyway, unless Ottawa goes through with an announced cut back of VIA Rail funds, the Bras d'Or is still scheduled to operate this year.

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We have relatives in Bedford, NS (Halifax, now ....) and the house is between Bedford Basin and CN's trackage - so the views on both sides are absolutely wonderful. Trains and the beauty of Nova Scotia! Love 'em both.

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passengerfan

QUOTE: Newfoundland Railway was 3' 6" and when built they paid the builder by the mile that is why the route between St. Johns and Port Aux Basques was so long.
Imentioned earlier about the crew layover in Argentia it was actually Argentia Junction where the main line and branch line split to Argentia.
I found the entire Island to be a great place to visit. Lots to see such as Gander airport, The hill in St. Johns where Marconi sent his first trans Atlantic transmission. On the other side of the Island theiir was a U S airforce base a Stephenville.

As I mentioned in an earlier response, I have more than a cursory knowledge of Newfoundland, having made many port calls in Argentia and St. John's. I know of Argentia Junction - in fact, a friend of mine used to rent one of the very few houses located there on a seasonal basis - the wrong season! He was assigned to the U.S. Coast Guard's International Ice Patrol Radio Station at Argentia (NIK .... for those who care about these things - dahdit ditdit dahditdah was the "song" sung over the continuous wave of the day!) Oh yes -Marconi's "What hath God wrought," brings back some memories too.
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Thanx to both of you for your contributions!

[passengerfan]

My Newfoundland vacation was in 1968 the last year the narrow gauge ran. CN operated three Maritime trains from Montreal at that time The OCEAN between Montreal and Halifax the CHALEUR between Montreal and Gaspe and the SCOTIAN between Montreal and Truro where it split into two trains one going to N. Sydney and Sydney and the other continuing on to Halifax. Besides these the CPR operated the ATLANTIC LIMITED between Montreal and St. John, N.B. via Maine.