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CANADIAN PASSENGER RAILROADS - Let's talk! BYOB ........

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Posted by trolleyboy on Saturday, March 26, 2005 11:46 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Does anybody know if GO transit plans to extend to St.Catharines anytime soon?
Hello, no i haven't heard anything yet. I know being an ex St Catharines boy myself that go service to the peninsula hays been on the public wish list for years. I was kind of hoping that when the falls added the second casino that we might get our wish. From my understanding other than the usual gov. foot dragging there were two minor reasons as to why the trains hadn't been added yet.#1 CN had removed a couple of switches near grimsby on the grimby sub so there was not a direct double mainline all the way into St Kitts anymore(and easy remedy} one wonders if it was done just to keep the commutor traffic off the line?#2 The Hamilton go trains aren't full or full train service and since they run up CP to the old TH&B station CN claims it makes it difficult to schedule(sounds some what fishy to me) I suppose money is a consideration as well Go would have to likely buy more locos and rolling stock if it were to be a full service line like their lakeshore service.I;m wondering if crewing is a problem as well,my understanding is that all of go's train crews are CP personel might be a rules issue.I suppose we just need to keep pestering the local MPP's flood their e-mail inboxes and snail mail boxes maybe they'll listen. Of coarse that's likely my rose coloured glasses looking at the situ. again. It's kind of like my Brantford situation before I moved here they experimented with Go service but they had all sorts of issues on the Dundas subs hills so we've reverted back to VIA service and have ten trains a day stopping in Brantford weekdays four on holidays and weekends.The service is a bit more expensive than Go but has a better on time record than the Go experiment did.Too bad St Catharines VIA service is all but non existant. Perhaps if there was better ridership there them getting go into the peninsula might be concidered more seriously. Of coarse someone at VIA and CN need to commit to giving VIA service to your neck of the woods more priority and more trains. Just a thought. I know bring back an LRV version of the NS&T maybe connect to Oakville then Go to TO and beyond. Nah that's just crazy talk. Rob
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Posted by enr2099 on Sunday, March 27, 2005 1:32 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpe

Glad to see the Malahat get at least a little civilized. My family and I rode it RT Victoria-Courtenay about 7-8 years ago. Despite the great scenery, train was decidedly third world. No advanced notice regarding food or drink. Nothing available on the train or at any of the completely boarded-up stations--not even water or a soft drink machine.


The snack waggon that meets the train at Nanaimo isn't always there, many times if you ride on the weekend there's no snack truck. I wouldn't say there was no advanced notice on food or drink as it's printed in the timetables, every timetable printed by VIA since they took over the service from CP that there is no food or drink service.

I have found though, that it has only been since RailAmerica took over the E&N, that customer service has improved on the passenger train. Not to mention that also since CP no longer does the maintenace of the cars, Herzog maintains the RDC's now, the cars are generally in better shape both inside and out.

QUOTE:
I never understood why they kept the doors locked between the two cars (both were being used). Maybe one of you Canadians knows, eh??


The other car may have been chartered for a tour group but the conductor most of the time leaves the doors unlocked so that he can go back and forth between the cars. Most of the time they are left wide open to allow easy movement between the cars.
Tyler W. CN hog
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Posted by VerMontanan on Sunday, March 27, 2005 11:39 AM
Tom,

I do appreciate your point of view with the Canadian. My pointing out its shortcomings is just something that I think needs to be brought to light if we're discussing all aspects of Canadian passenger trains. I've personally lined up travel on the Canadian for several groups of friends that want a unique travel experience, and they've all loved it, as have I. As someone who is not Canadian, however, I can't really speak for the kind of transcontinental service that should be offered in Canada. If Canadians are happy with this level of service, then that's the way it should be. However, I know as an American, a similar level of service along the route of the Empire Builder and many other routes in the United States would not be supported.

One last comment, though, just to put the utility of service offered by today's "Canadian" in its proper context: When you say, "I should add that the reason coaches are included in the consist for VIA Rail's "Canadian" is precisely for those who are making a journey between stops along the route. Those are the folks you will be observing getting on and off at the lesser known stations in the Provinces - not all nor always, but most of the time," this needs to be clarified. In each issue of the Canadian railroad magazine "Branchline" there is a "selection of passenger consists." To be accurate, in the winter, your term "coaches" should be replaced with "coach". Yes, that's right. One coach for a train operating from Toronto to Vancouver with, I believe, 62 seats. Of course, the same train can have four to eight sleeping cars so I'm not suggesting the there is no one on the train. Still, when one compares (during this season) 62 seats three times a week being offered through Melville, Saskatchewan to the 225 or so daily seats offered by Amtrak through Williston, North Dakota, it does show that indeed these are two vastly different services.

As for my moniker, used in this forum, it does reflect my two favorite states (one of which I am a native), and I'll just say that both are truly the "Essence of Texaslessness" in reference to where I now reside.

--Mark

Mark Meyer

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Posted by siberianmo on Sunday, March 27, 2005 11:54 AM
QUOTE: The groundrules are pretty simple:

Share your thoughts about Canadian passenger railroading - past and present. Let's not bash one another because of differences in opinion and of course, nationalities. Above all - keep politics out of our discussions.

FOR NEWCOMERS: May I suggest that you browse the pages from start to finish? You may find something that will enhance what you are about to post, plus you'll find out "where we've been."

Ladies and Gentlemen, let's talk Canadian passenger trains!



=================================================
Happy Easter to those who share this fine day! Good morning to all!

I didn't know what to expect this morning when first opening up the site ....
but things appear to be still perking .... good news! We are approaching one month with this discussion ...... Let's get to it![tup]

QUOTE: tatans Posted: 26 Mar 2005, 14:17:57
Must agree with Vermont"guy" about the present ' Canadian" : empty stations, tri-weekly, sleeping car rates for millionaires, and "real" people travelling somewhere ,as opposed to strictly a sightseeing adventures. I wanted to travel down east untilI found the price I could have gone to Uzbekistan. Now I guess I was very lucky to have been able to travel years back on the same train in it's heydey, but it's over folks. seems I will have to travel over the border to Rugby and get on a real train.


The comments I made in my recent post on this subject ( 26 Mar 2005, 16:08:35 A response is in order ....... to VerMontanan) remain as my opinion.

The prices are horrendus, for bedrooms. I cannot and will not debate or defend that point. Supply and demand rules the day along with a long line of those who can and will pony up.

I'm not sure a trip to Uzbekistan would do much for my sightseeing urges ... but to each his own.[:D]

To me it is quite simple - the train has beautiful passenger cars and lots people from ALL walks of life - everyone is not a millionaire or even close to being one. Many are retired and have planned and saved for their rail trip of "their dreams" - that's us. Others have finally managed to save up enough to experience the chance of riding a train of "yesterday." This train is as real as it gets as far as I'm concerned ...... it just isn't what everyone expects it to be.

Just love the "Canadian" and as long as it runs on a schedule, and there's money available, we'll book it.[:D]

Appreciate your opinion![tup][:)]

QUOTE: drephpe Posted: 26 Mar 2005, 18:27:16
Glad to see the Malahat get at least a little civilized. My family and I rode it RT Victoria-Courtenay about 7-8 years ago. Despite the great scenery, train was decidedly third world. No advanced notice regarding food or drink. Nothing available on the train or at any of the completely boarded-up stations--not even water or a soft drink machine. Fortunately, the crew let me and my son (about 11 or 12), along with one other passenger, get off and literally run to a grocery store several blocks away in Courtenay to get sandwiches and some drinks, and they held the train for us to get back. It was obvious they were very familiar with the problem, were gracious to accommodate, and didn't like the situation one bit. At least the truck can get some relief to the pax.

I never understood why they kept the doors locked between the two cars (both were being used). Maybe one of you Canadians knows, eh??

In contrast, even though it was tourist, BC Rail's Royal Hudson operation, which we also rode that trip, was outstanding. I'm sure that's missed.

Despite VIA, I've never heard anything even resembling bad about The Canadian. Would love to sample it someday, when I become a billionaire so I can afford the fare.


[#welcome] to you drephpe![tup][:D]

Actually, your account of the trip you took with your son sounds like it was an adventure and something many rail fans would envy! From the best of RDC experiences to those that are in the category you described - they still bring back many fond memories. So what's wrong with a quick trip to the "Quick Trip"?[:)]

I'm not sure what you mean regarding "Despite VIA," but suffice it to say - WITHOUT VIA Rail, there would be no "Canadian" running today. Once the equipment goes (Budd stainless steel cars) that's when the "Canadian" will surely die - my opinion, of course.

Thanx for your input and hope to "see" you again.[tup][:D]

QUOTE: passengerfan Posted: 26 Mar 2005, 20:22:55
I have to bring a little more information on the CN Turbos to this forum. The trains were slow accelerating to sixty but they were fast beyond. the ride was surprisingly comfortable and sideways motion was practically non existant. The crews were excellent and bid this job by seniority and all had whiskers who were assigned to the Turbos. I was fortunate to always ride Turbo club and was always in the first class dome going to Montreeal it was the lead with the engineer and returning from Montreal was always the trailing Turbo dome. Clean quiet and Comfortable was a good description of the Turbos and even though when riding in the Turbo dome you were riding directly above the Pratt & Whitney Turbines they were much quieter than any diesel. And remember as long as one turbine was operating to supply hotel power they could open the clkam shell doors at couple a diesel to the train for power. Its to bad they did not give the turbos more time they were popul;ar with passengers when in service. Personally I liked them better in the CN wjhite with Black and Orange scheme than the VIA yellow with Blue Bic Banana scheme.


Appreciate the additional info on the Turbo train .....

My travels within trains equipped with domes have been restricted to the Santa Fe Chief (don't recall which one .... I was about 7 or 8) - Amtrak and VIA Rail. Haven't "met" a dome I didn't like! What a great way to travel. Insofar as livery is concerned - can't see it from the inside! But seriously, as long as the paint scheme matches all the way - from the loco's to the last car - to me that's what "flicks my switch."

As a child, I can still remember seeing all of those wonderful passenger trains lined up at NYC's Penn Station and Grand Central - so many different railroads and so many, many opportunities for rail travel - of course to Canada! Ahhhhhhh [tup]

Thanx for your continuing and descriptive contributions![tup][tup]

QUOTE: trolleyboy Posted: 26 Mar 2005, 23:46:47[PARTIALLY QUOTED]
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Does anybody know if GO transit plans to extend to St.Catharines anytime soon?
---------------------------------------
Hello, no i haven't heard anything yet. I know being an ex St Catharines boy myself that go service to the peninsula hays been on the public wish list for years. I was kind of hoping that when the falls added the second casino that we might get our wish. .......... we've reverted back to VIA service and have ten trains a day stopping in Brantford weekdays four on holidays and weekends.The service is a bit more expensive than Go but has a better on time record than the Go experiment did.Too bad St Catharines VIA service is all but non existant. .......... Just a thought. I know bring back an LRV version of the NS&T maybe connect to Oakville then Go to TO and beyond. Nah that's just crazy talk. Rob


Thanx for the response and commentary, Rob! [tup] Crazy talk? No, perhaps too visionary for those who can make things happen, but won't.

See ya and thanx for your continuing participation![tup][tup][:D]

QUOTE: enr2099 Posted: Today, 01:32:16 [PARTIALLY QUOTED]

The snack waggon that meets the train at Nanaimo isn't always there, many times if you ride on the weekend there's no snack truck. I wouldn't say there was no advanced notice on food or drink as it's printed in the timetables, every timetable printed by VIA since they took over the service from CP that there is no food or drink service.

I have found though, that it has only been since RailAmerica took over the E&N, that customer service has improved on the passenger train. Not to mention that also since CP no longer does the maintenace of the cars, Herzog maintains the RDC's now, the cars are generally in better shape both inside and out.
---------------------------------
QUOTE:
I never understood why they kept the doors locked between the two cars (both were being used). Maybe one of you Canadians knows, eh??
--------------------------------
The other car may have been chartered for a tour group but the conductor most of the time leaves the doors unlocked so that he can go back and forth between the cars. Most of the time they are left wide open to allow easy movement between the cars.


Thanx, Tyler, for your input ...... as has been stated several times throughout this topic, there's lots of interest in VIA Rail's "Malahat." [tup][tup][:D]
================================================

Well, it's nearly NOON! Gotta get going.

See ya soon. [tup][:D]

Tom in Chesterfield, MO, USA (Siberianmo)



Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
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Posted by Junctionfan on Sunday, March 27, 2005 12:30 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by trolleyboy

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Does anybody know if GO transit plans to extend to St.Catharines anytime soon?
Hello, no i haven't heard anything yet. I know being an ex St Catharines boy myself that go service to the peninsula hays been on the public wish list for years. I was kind of hoping that when the falls added the second casino that we might get our wish. From my understanding other than the usual gov. foot dragging there were two minor reasons as to why the trains hadn't been added yet.#1 CN had removed a couple of switches near grimsby on the grimby sub so there was not a direct double mainline all the way into St Kitts anymore(and easy remedy} one wonders if it was done just to keep the commutor traffic off the line?#2 The Hamilton go trains aren't full or full train service and since they run up CP to the old TH&B station CN claims it makes it difficult to schedule(sounds some what fishy to me) I suppose money is a consideration as well Go would have to likely buy more locos and rolling stock if it were to be a full service line like their lakeshore service.I;m wondering if crewing is a problem as well,my understanding is that all of go's train crews are CP personel might be a rules issue.I suppose we just need to keep pestering the local MPP's flood their e-mail inboxes and snail mail boxes maybe they'll listen. Of coarse that's likely my rose coloured glasses looking at the situ. again. It's kind of like my Brantford situation before I moved here they experimented with Go service but they had all sorts of issues on the Dundas subs hills so we've reverted back to VIA service and have ten trains a day stopping in Brantford weekdays four on holidays and weekends.The service is a bit more expensive than Go but has a better on time record than the Go experiment did.Too bad St Catharines VIA service is all but non existant. Perhaps if there was better ridership there them getting go into the peninsula might be concidered more seriously. Of coarse someone at VIA and CN need to commit to giving VIA service to your neck of the woods more priority and more trains. Just a thought. I know bring back an LRV version of the NS&T maybe connect to Oakville then Go to TO and beyond. Nah that's just crazy talk. Rob


Thanks for the response.

As far as the single tracking between Grimsby and Jordon, CN shot themselves in the foot over that one. They have terrible time with meets because everything pretty much runs all at once because when CSX can release CN trains from Frontier Yard and then of course CN MacMillan Yard too. Morning and early afternoon is usually the hot times for that.

I think the major issue other than that is the canal. Having the canal is great for anything but the railroad and anything associated with trains particularly during the busy shipping seasons. I always believed that it could be solved if GO ran up Trillium's Canal line between Merriton in St.Catharines to Dain City and travel onto CP Hamilton Sub and head up on the old CASO/ CP line toward Niagara Falls. Then I thought (no that takes to long) so then I thought that if Trillium ran a couple of RDCs (or someone) between St.Catharines station and the casinos, it might work. The GO train for us would run between Aldershot and St.Catharines.

VIA is great but they don't run on great times. I could take a train between St.Catharines in the Morning, get off at Aldershot, take 73 I believe to London but when I get back from London to Aldershot, 95 has long gone. There isn't a night train/s anymore which is really dumb. There isn't any Toronto bound train in the afternoon either. If I want to go to Toronto by train, I have to wait for Amtrak to come at 6:30pm if he comes at all often getting held in customs for an eternity. No wonder ridership is stagnent. However taking the train involving the Dundas and Kingston Subdivisions, you have no problems at all. Even though Niagara Falls is a big tourist place and St.Catharines has tons of folks that work in Oakville and Toronto and we are supposed to be apart of the Windsor Corridor, we get squat for rail service. Go figure.
Andrew
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, March 27, 2005 3:10 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by enr2099

QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpe

Glad to see the Malahat get at least a little civilized. My family and I rode it RT Victoria-Courtenay about 7-8 years ago. Despite the great scenery, train was decidedly third world. No advanced notice regarding food or drink. Nothing available on the train or at any of the completely boarded-up stations--not even water or a soft drink machine.


The snack waggon that meets the train at Nanaimo isn't always there, many times if you ride on the weekend there's no snack truck. I wouldn't say there was no advanced notice on food or drink as it's printed in the timetables, every timetable printed by VIA since they took over the service from CP that there is no food or drink service.

I have found though, that it has only been since RailAmerica took over the E&N, that customer service has improved on the passenger train. Not to mention that also since CP no longer does the maintenace of the cars, Herzog maintains the RDC's now, the cars are generally in better shape both inside and out.

QUOTE:
I never understood why they kept the doors locked between the two cars (both were being used). Maybe one of you Canadians knows, eh??


The other car may have been chartered for a tour group but the conductor most of the time leaves the doors unlocked so that he can go back and forth between the cars. Most of the time they are left wide open to allow easy movement between the cars.

..........

Actually, your account of the trip you took with your son sounds like it was an adventure and something many rail fans would envy! From the best of RDC experiences to those that are in the category you described - they still bring back many fond memories. So what's wrong with a quick trip to the "Quick Trip"?


Would have loved to have had a TT to look at. Didn't have one, and the VIA agent at Vancouver where I bought the tickets apparently didn't think it was necessary to tell us there wasn't any liquid on board or any facilities at any of the stations where we could get some. Had we known, we would have packed a lunch and drinks.

As to being an adventure-- it would have been, except I also had my wife and 8-9 year old daughter on board, and they aren't particularly adventurous in that sense. Try dealing with a thirsty, hungry little child all day.

Sort of like what flying has become........[banghead][banghead][banghead]

As to the door--no tour groups or charters. Just a standard revenue run. They were loading and unloading off both cars. Made no sense to me at all.

Glad it's gotten better--that run is made for tourism.
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Posted by trolleyboy on Sunday, March 27, 2005 11:38 PM

QUOTE: Thanks for the response.

As far as the single tracking between Grimsby and Jordon, CN shot themselves in the foot over that one. They have terrible time with meets because everything pretty much runs all at once because when CSX can release CN trains from Frontier Yard and then of course CN MacMillan Yard too. Morning and early afternoon is usually the hot times for that.

I think the major issue other than that is the canal. Having the canal is great for anything but the railroad and anything associated with trains particularly during the busy shipping seasons. I always believed that it could be solved if GO ran up Trillium's Canal line between Merriton in St.Catharines to Dain City and travel onto CP Hamilton Sub and head up on the old CASO/ CP line toward Niagara Falls. Then I thought (no that takes to long) so then I thought that if Trillium ran a couple of RDCs (or someone) between St.Catharines station and the casinos, it might work. The GO train for us would run between Aldershot and St.Catharines.

VIA is great but they don't run on great times. I could take a train between St.Catharines in the Morning, get off at Aldershot, take 73 I believe to London but when I get back from London to Aldershot, 95 has long gone. There isn't a night train/s anymore which is really dumb. There isn't any Toronto bound train in the afternoon either. If I want to go to Toronto by train, I have to wait for Amtrak to come at 6:30pm if he comes at all often getting held in customs for an eternity. No wonder ridership is stagnent. However taking the train involving the Dundas and Kingston Subdivisions, you have no problems at all. Even though Niagara Falls is a big tourist place and St.Catharines has tons of folks that work in Oakville and Toronto and we are supposed to be apart of the Windsor Corridor, we get squat for rail service. Go figure.

Just wondering have you suggested this to anyone at Trillum. I know a few of the people that work there and though they are a little backward and laid back they may be interested in a scheme like that/ I'm sure that used RDC cars would go for a fairly low price nowadays. The hill along lock seven's a bit steep one of the worst in eastern canada.Remembering that this was a helperdistrict during the days of steam and early deisel. A side bar a good modelling friend of mine's dad used to own Lamco diecasting (a long the rail line in thorold) His dad has told many a tale of slipping Mikes and mountains struggling to get a twenty car train up that grade. They used to live in an apartment above the plant to this day Mikes dad's not much of a train fan. I imaginr the right word said in the right ears could get a plan like this a least discussed. I'm sure if the casino's thought that they would get a lot more business from rail service that they would jump at a chance like this.You would need some hefty right of way improvement though CN hasn't sunk any money into the canal sub and Trillium only fixes whats absolutly rotten. Insureance co's would want bullet proof trackage if a passenger route was to be attempted.I'm wondering is the Caso's ownership issues been delt with yet or is it still in limbo between CN/CP. Rob
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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, March 28, 2005 3:40 AM
1. None of us who remember the CN passenger revival about 1965-1970 or the really great das of USA passenger railroading arond 1950 are really happy with either Amtrak or VIA, including the Canadian. But we are happy to have what is available as better than nothing, and people who had ridden the CZ in its best days do tell me the present Canadian is the nearest thing on wheels to it.

2. If you an cobtain complete photographs of the Montreal Central Station when it opened and all during the steam days, you'll find the catenary. All trains running north through the tunnel used box-cab locomotives except the suburban trains which were multiple-unit and still are. However, it is possible that in the last ten years, the station has been remodeled placing the mu suburban Deux Montaine trains (spelling?) in their own isolated station, since their operation is now subsidized by the city and fares are interchangeable with the subway system. This might explain why you don't see catenary any more. When I first visited Montreal, most Central Station platform tracks had catenary. But later only two tracks used by the suburban trains. Diesels did begin running throught the tunnel pretty early/ And some of the box cabs were retained to run suburban trains with old cleristory roof steel cars as suburban business grew and maintenance on the orginial mu equipment required a better spares-to-operating ratio. I understand they now have new mu's.
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Posted by Junctionfan on Monday, March 28, 2005 6:29 AM
To Trolleyboy:

I don't think Trillium can afford something like that unless they get a government grant which I don't think they will apply for because nothing they have done has shown that they are still interested in any kind of passenger service.

As far as the grade is concerned, Trillium can move a large dimensional plus some extra cars with just one S-2 so it can't be too bad. If GO were to do this, 10 cars max plus an F45 should be plenty power. I was actually fortunate to get to experience this in the cab of Trillium's 108. The track at least up the hill, is 136 pound rail which is better than even much of the Grimbsy Sub.

I haven't seen too much track problems but then again, I have been more interested in CN than Trillium since they run more trains for this railfan to see.[:D]

As far as the Canal Sub in general is concerned, the territory is under Rule 105 which says it can't go over 15mph. Big problem for commuter trains trying to make connection. There are spots like East Main Street crossing in Welland where I don't think it would be wise to go over 15mph as nobody there really knows how to not foul the crossing when waiting for a green light. I also believe that Trillium would be required to hire a dispatcher and put up at least OCS signalling which could be rather expensive for a puny little shortline.

As far as the Montrose Sub/ Caso, it also is under Rule 105. Much of the rail has been removed to about near Marineland. CP rarely uses the line anymore except to switch a few industries on the Chippawa Spur at night. I think the Montrose Yard is only used for general storage and serves no industrial support.

If the Jim Bradley and regional council could convince the feds to make the necessary action to secure the running of such venture, I'm sure that Ontario would consider spending at least half. Mind you, trying to get MTO to finni***he darn 406 is like pulling teeth.
Andrew
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, March 28, 2005 10:55 AM
An earlier submission by CP2816 (excuse the abbrevation) mentioned Nicolas Morant's beautiful book on the CP. I am a proud owner of the book in addition to his companion volume "Morants Canada" (think I have the title correct) First came across the book in the Entree Gold lounge at the Palliser Hotel in Calgary. From that second on it was a must have!. I have traveled on the back road between Banff and Lake Louise trying to find Morants Curve. Unfortunately a rock slide and its repair have taken out the parking area, so you cannot stop and look there. A recent issue of TRAINS had a great fold out advertising tGeneral Electrics new locomotive on the curve. Not quite the same vantage point as Morant, but still a great photo. I would love to get a copy of Morant's photo of the Canadian at "his" curve, but have heard that the negative is worn out and no more copies can be made. Does anyone know where a copy can be obtained?
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Posted by siberianmo on Monday, March 28, 2005 1:31 PM
The groundrules are pretty simple:

Share your thoughts about Canadian passenger railroading - past and present. Let's not bash one another because of differences in opinion and of course, nationalities. Above all - keep politics out of our discussions.

FOR NEWCOMERS: May I suggest that you browse the pages from start to finish? You may find something that will enhance what you are about to post, plus you'll find out "where we've been."

Ladies and Gentlemen, let's talk Canadian passenger trains!


=================================================
G'day All! A wonderful warm and sunny day here in mid-continent U.S.A. [tup][8D] Hope the sun shines for all of you as well

Once again it appears as if we have ongoing discussions between "members" of this topic. Good - that's all part of what this is all about - Canadian train talk!

To the business at hand .......

Junctionfan and trolleyboy: I won't even attempt to quote any of your posts! Looks as if you guys have it well in hand .......

QUOTE: drephpe Posted: 27 Mar 2005, 15:10:00 [PARTIALLY
QUOTED].........
Actually, your account of the trip you took with your son sounds like it was an adventure and something many rail fans would envy! From the best of RDC experiences to those that are in the category you described - they still bring back many fond memories. So what's wrong with a quick trip to the "Quick Trip"?
----------------------------------------
Would have loved to have had a TT to look at. Didn't have one, and the VIA agent at Vancouver where I bought the tickets apparently didn't think it was necessary to tell us there wasn't any liquid on board or any facilities at any of the stations where we could get some. Had we known, we would have packed a lunch and drinks.
----------------------------------------
As to being an adventure-- it would have been, except I also had my wife and 8-9 year old daughter on board, and they aren't particularly adventurous in that sense. Try dealing with a thirsty, hungry little child all day.
----------------------------------------
Sort of like what flying has become........

Glad it's gotten better--that run is made for tourism


About the only comment left, I suppose, is: were you satisified with the response you got from VIA Rail regarding your unhappy experience?

I hope things have gotten better since your trip, but there are a few lessons learned from all of this - and thanks to people like you, those of us planning to ride the RDC's on Vancouver Island are now forewarned![tup]

QUOTE: daveklepper Posted: Today, 03:40:22
1. None of us who remember the CN passenger revival about 1965-1970 or the really great das of USA passenger railroading arond 1950 are really happy with either Amtrak or VIA, including the Canadian. But we are happy to have what is available as better than nothing, and people who had ridden the CZ in its best days do tell me the present Canadian is the nearest thing on wheels to it.

2. If you an cobtain complete photographs of the Montreal Central Station when it opened and all during the steam days, you'll find the catenary. All trains running north through the tunnel used box-cab locomotives except the suburban trains which were multiple-unit and still are. However, it is possible that in the last ten years, the station has been remodeled placing the mu suburban Deux Montaine trains (spelling?) in their own isolated station, since their operation is now subsidized by the city and fares are interchangeable with the subway system. This might explain why you don't see catenary any more. When I first visited Montreal, most Central Station platform tracks had catenary. But later only two tracks used by the suburban trains. Diesels did begin running
throught the tunnel pretty early/ And some of the box cabs were retained to run suburban trains with old cleristory roof steel cars as suburban business grew and maintenance on the orginial mu equipment required a better spares-to-operating ratio. I understand they now have new mu's.


Dave - Concour wholeheartedly with your paragraph 1 commentary. We will soon see the end of Amtrak for many of its segments in the U.S. - Oct 1st isn't that far off. Hopefully, VIA Rail will continue on - it isn't what many want it to be - but it sure beats having nothing, as in zip, zero and zilch![:(]

All the photos that I have that were taken aboard VIA Rail's "Ocean" from the Park Car do not reveal any catenaries going into "Place Bonaventure" for the tracks used by VIA and Amtrak. I'll give it an "extra" effort during our trip in May to look closer and ask a few questions of those who should know.

Thanx for sticking around![tup][tp][:D]


QUOTE: wrwatkins Posted: Today, 10:55:41
An earlier submission by CP2816 (excuse the abbrevation) mentioned Nicolas Morant's beautiful book on the CP. I am a proud owner of the book in addition to his companion volume "Morants Canada" (think I have the title correct) First came across the book in the Entree Gold lounge at the Palliser Hotel in Calgary. From that second on it was a must have!. I have traveled on the back road between Banff and Lake Louise trying to find Morants Curve. Unfortunately a rock slide and its repair have taken out the parking area, so you cannot stop and look there. A recent issue of TRAINS had a great fold out advertising tGeneral Electrics new locomotive on the curve. Not quite the same vantage point as Morant, but still a great photo. I would love to get a copy of Morant's photo of the Canadian at "his" curve, but have heard that the negative is worn out and no more copies can be made. Does anyone know where a copy can be obtained?


---------------------------------------------------------------------

***, I'm convinced the books will have to be located and added to my library!

Other than than browsing the net, I wouldn't know where or how anyone could get that copy you want.

I've seen so many pictures of Morant's Curve that I dearly "wish" VIA Rail operated on CP tracks.

By the way - did you receive my e-mail?

Thanx for contributing![tup][:D]
==================================================
That's it for now - and see y'all soon![tup][:D]

Tom in Chesterfield, MO, USA (Siberianmo)
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, March 28, 2005 3:12 PM
I am still hoping that Amtrrak's present route structure will be preserved. Of course that is a far cry from what is really required.

But do you understand (sorry this isn't Canada, but the thought might be applicable some day) that Mineta would compromise safety by having a Federal Government rebuilding of the NEC while Amtrak controls operations?

The rebuilding under traffic of Penn Sta. and the NE Corridor electrification extension under traffic were safe because one authority made decisions on both construction and operation. You split the two and you have a real potential for disaster, as did occure as you know in Paddington Station London.

You don't save money by adding another and redundant bureracracy!
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Posted by VerMontanan on Monday, March 28, 2005 4:12 PM
Dave states:

"Concour wholeheartedly with your paragraph 1 commentary. We will soon see the end of Amtrak for many of its segments in the U.S. - Oct 1st isn't that far off. Hopefully, VIA Rail will continue on - it isn't what many want it to be - but it sure beats having nothing, as in zip, zero and zilch!"

There is actually little to suggest that the threat to Amtrak is any greater now than in numerous other years when certain administrations tried to get rid of it. In fact, there appears to be great support for long distance trains from numerous politicians throughout the country and the fight has not really begun in earnest. The only thing I worry about is this administration's disinformation campaign against long distance Amtrak trains. During a speech in Detroit at the end of March, Transportation Secretary Mineta stated, when asked to back up his previous comment that Amtrak runs routes that "nobody" wants to ride, he said, "the problem is if the Empire Builder is going from Seattle to Chicago and it's going through lets say Montana, but there are only 53 people a day using that train service, can I really justify pouring that kind of subsidy into the Empire Builder for a segment of that service?" NARP responded with; "In fiscal 2004, the Empire Builder handled 437,200 passengers, an average 1,195 per day (597 per trip, since there is one eastbound and one westbound train per day). This was 5% above the fiscal 2003 level, and 19% above that of fiscal 2002. In fiscal 2004, boardings and alightings within the state of Montana totaled 129,044 or an average of 353 per day. At the same time, about 100,000 passengers (average 275 per day) traveled all the way across Montana en route between Idaho-west and North Dakota-east points." While it's politically incorrect to use the obvious term "lie" in reference to Mineta's propaganda here, it might be better than otherwise thinking that someone representing the administration is functioning on a level that far outside of reality.

What does this have to do with Canadian passenger trains? Well, while something might be better than nothing, one has to wonder about the utility of the something. While people along the Empire Builder route are already actively protesting the proposed cuts in service (the Montana Senate has already passed a resolution supporting Amtrak service in the state by a 46-4 margin), one wonders what would happen if the Canadian was threatened. The refurbished Budd equipment, while still a treat to ride, is showing its age, and will not last forever. Several trains like the Chaleur, Ocean, and Hudson Bay operate on region shortlines with little (or none in the case of the east end of the Chaleur route) freight service. Canada, like the United States, has no definitive transportation policy, especially with regard to railroads, so the reality is that Canada's trains are not a lot more secure than those in the United States. In the case of the Canadian, if it was ever threatened with discontinuance due to a cost-cutting measure, I would think that its best chance to be saved would be just a general feeling among Canadians that a cross-country trip should be available. But if pressed to show a public need, the Canadian, unlike the Empire Builder, would fail miserably, since proponents would be hard pressed to show where and how the train fills any public need.

Just for the heck of it this morning, I checked at the VIA website as to what a one-way trip from Edmonton to Winnipeg would be in a roomette (single bedroom as VIA calls them) tonight (March 28). The cost was about $635 (Canadian, which is about $521 US at the current rate of exchange). A double bedroom was about $300 more. At the same time (and with the train only about three hours out), I checked the fare to travel on the Empire Builder from Whitefish, Montana to Grand Forks, North Dakota, roughly about the same length of time as the VIA trip. The fare for a single bedroom for one person was $233, less than half the price of the VIA trip (all the bedrooms, formerly deluxe bedrooms were sold out, so their price was not available). While a trip in a VIA roomette is probably more comfortable than one on Amtrak due to restroom facilities in the room if nothing else, another aspect with regard to pinching pennies would be if two people were traveling. On VIA, a roomette is not occupiable by two people so a larger accommodation would be required, and the fare increases to $1271 Canadian. On the Empire Builder, if a second person were to occupy the roomette, which can be done, the cost would only increase by about $100 to travel in the same room.

In summary, my point is that when the Canadian is similarly threatened, where is the support for the train going to come from and are Canadians going to care what the tourists think? At this point, I believe the shortcomings will overwhelm the "experience" of the classic Budd-built equipment, and the strong local support that is currently being displayed along many Amtrak routes today for that service will not be there for the Canadian, a train that local people do not and for many can not use.

Mark Meyer

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Posted by siberianmo on Monday, March 28, 2005 8:50 PM
QUOTE: VerMontanan Posted: Today, 16:12:47
Dave states:

"Concour wholeheartedly with your paragraph 1 commentary. We will soon see the end of Amtrak for many of its segments in the U.S. - Oct 1st isn't that far off. Hopefully, VIA Rail will continue on - it isn't what many want it to be - but it sure beats having nothing, as in zip, zero and zilch!"


Actually - it should say, "Tom (Siberianmo) states:"

More in tomorrow's compilation!

G'nite ........
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
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Posted by andrewjonathon on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 12:20 AM
I have just been reading the thread from the last couple of days and found the discussions to be very interesting.

Regarding the service levels on the VIA's Malahat, one needs to keep in the mind the reason the train continues to exist is somewhat controversial and may affect the service offered. VIA planned to discontinued service on this line along with the other gut wrenching cuts VIA made in 1990. However, the provision of train service on Vancouver Island was part of the confederation agreement BC made with the Canadian government in 1870 when it joined Canada and as a result the courts forced VIA to abandon plans to discontinue the Malahat service. While VIA can be required to provide the service, I wonder if it affects the level of service they are provide.

In regards to the discussion about VIA's Canadian and it continued existence, I would make a couple of notes. I think that the fact the Canadian is largely a tourist train will ultimately help to ensure its operation continues in the years to come. It has been primarily a tourist train for many years. However, Canada (especially British Columbia) is well acutely aware of the role tourism plays in the western economy. Even at the time of the 1990 VIA cuts, the arguments made for keeping the Canadian were largely based on its value to tourism. (VIA even operates an office in Japan). Due its value as a tourist train, I believe that it will live outlive the Budd passenger cars when that day eventually comes.

The second reason I believe the Canadian will continue to be supported by the Canadian publie is role the railway played in Canada's creation. Although the Canadian itself doesn't go back that far it continues to be a symbol of the role railways played in creating Canada. Based on the public outcry to the 1990 service cuts, Canadians are proud of that history and want to maintain the historic symbols associated with it.

A few years ago VIA rail started to make noise that they wanted to return the Canadian to its original route on the CPR through the Rockies. They were unable to do so due to a contract they had signed with the Canadian Rocky Mountaineer train company. However, I believe that the contract expires in the next few years and I hope VIA will take the opportunity to move the Canadian back to its original route which really has superior scenery and even a stronger tourist potential.
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Posted by chateauricher on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 1:38 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by tomtrain
I would like to learn more about Montreal's commuter rail system. Is all or most of it still electrified? Is most of the Montreal metropolitan area served by these trains? Is the service extensive and well run? Does it connect well with VIA, Amtrak, other transport modes? Thanks for info.


Their web site is located at ... http://www.stcum.qc.ca/English/a-somm.htm

Montreal's metro (subway) and commuter rail systems connect quite well with each other and with inter-city trains and buses.

You can transfer directly from one of the 4 metro lines and two of the 5 of the commuter train lines directly to VIA (and Amtrak service to NYC's Penn Station). Transfers via the metro will get you from the other metro and commuter rail lines to the VIA/Amtrak terminus.

You can transfer to inter-city bus service and the airport shuttle directly from 3 of the 4 metro lines and indirectly by a short trip on the metro from the commuter trains.
Timothy The gods must love stupid people; they sure made a lot. The only insanity I suffer from is yours. Some people are so stupid, only surgery can get an idea in their heads.
IslandView Railroads On our trains, the service is surpassed only by the view !
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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 2:41 AM
But where at Central Station are the Deus Montaines trains? I used to see catenary over tracks in Central Station. Is the catenary still over two tracks used by the Deus Monataines trains, or has their platform been relocated away from the VIA trains?
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Posted by chateauricher on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 3:56 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper
But where at Central Station are the Deus Montaines trains? I used to see catenary over tracks in Central Station. Is the catenary still over two tracks used by the Deus Monataines trains, or has their platform been relocated away from the VIA trains?


The Deux-Montagnes and the Mont-Saint-Hilaire (a new one to the south shore) lines terminate at Central Station (linked by tunnel to Bonaventure metro station).

The two lines have platforms at one end of the station, separate from the VIA trains to keep people from "jumping the turnstiles".

As for caternary lines, I can't answer that question as I have not been there in a very long time.
Timothy The gods must love stupid people; they sure made a lot. The only insanity I suffer from is yours. Some people are so stupid, only surgery can get an idea in their heads.
IslandView Railroads On our trains, the service is surpassed only by the view !
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Posted by OnHarry on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 4:38 AM
Regarding the St Catherines GO service or rather the potential thereof, I suspect the problem in Hamilton is that so much money and effort was expended to restore the old TH&B station in downtown Hamilton that it would be impossible to go via the CN station, even though that would make sense. The TH&B track east of Hamilton has as steep a grade as the CN west of Dundas so that would be an issue, and there is no quick and easy way for the trains to transfer from Hunter Street Station to the CN mainline.

As to CN reducing their mainline in the Niagara penninsula I don't think it had anything to do with VIa or GO but rather a penny wise pound foolish attitude on the part of CN's current management. They did the same thing from From Komoka west to Sarnia, removing the second mainline and making it single track with passing sidings, when they put in the CTC, at a time when they said they were getting increased business from intermodal service through the new tunnel at Sarnia. Makes no sense to me if you are going out to get more business that you reduce your capacity to handle it .

I have much more to say but have to go to work so will try and post more when I return this afternoon.

James (my real name )
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Posted by siberianmo on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 10:09 AM
QUOTE: The groundrules are pretty simple:

Share your thoughts about Canadian passenger railroading - past and present. Let's not bash one another because of differences in opinion and of course, nationalities. Above all - keep politics out of our discussions.

FOR NEWCOMERS: May I suggest that you browse the pages from start to finish? You may find something that will enhance what you are about to post, plus you'll find out "where we've been."

Ladies and Gentlemen, let's talk Canadian passenger trains!


====================================================
Good Morning Canadian Passenger Railroaders ....... Hope this fine day finds all of you eager to contribute positively to whatever it is you "do"!

Once again, many discussion items to look at and perhaps reply to .... so here goes![tup][:D]

In the seemingly never ending debate (have no clue how it got to this level) between VIA Rail's "Canadian" and Amtak's "Empire Builder" - my final thoughts ......

QUOTE: VerMontanan Posted 27 Mar 2005 11:39:47 [PARTIALLY QUOTED]
Tom,

I do appreciate your point of view with the Canadian. My pointing out its shortcomings is just something that I think needs to be brought to light if we're discussing all aspects of Canadian passenger trains. I've personally lined up travel on the Canadian for several groups of friends that want a unique travel experience, and they've all loved it, as have I .............

One last comment, though, just to put the utility of service offered by today's "Canadian" in its proper context: When you say, "I should add that the reason coaches are included in the consist for VIA Rail's "Canadian" is precisely for those who are making a journey between stops along the route. Those are the folks you will be observing getting on and off at the lesser known stations in the Provinces - not all nor always, but most of the time," this needs to be clarified. In each issue of the Canadian railroad magazine "Branchline" there is a "selection of passenger consists." To be accurate, in the winter,
your term "coaches" should be replaced with "coach". Yes, that's right. One coach for a train operating from Toronto to Vancouver with, I believe, 62 seats. Of course, the same train can have four to eight sleeping cars so I'm not suggesting the there is no one on the train. Still, when one compares (during this season) 62 seats three times a week being offered through Melville, Saskatchewan to the 225 or so daily seats offered by Amtrak through Williston, North Dakota, it does show that indeed these are two vastly different services.


Let's dwell a bit on accuracy - the pictures I have from our December 31st, 2002 departure from Toronto en route Vancouver reveals 2 coaches in the consist. The return trip on January 5th, 2003 had 2 coaches as well. I cannot and will not debate the make up of each and every train in winter - but I know what shows up on my pictures and what I saw during our walks from the Park Car forward and return ........ I'm not familiar with the publication "Branchline," but perhaps I should send them my photos.[:)]

Sorry, but I grow weary of the comparison to Amtrak and points in Montana. It's hands down - they ARE two different services - and VIA Rail's is better IN MY OPINION for those wanting to take a rail journey for the pleasure of it all. That's where this all began - the pleasure of it all.

See ya[:D]

QUOTE: VerMontananPosted: 28 Mar 2005, 16:12:47 [PARTIALLY QUOTED]

Tom (Siberianmo) states (in reply to Dave):

"Concour wholeheartedly with your paragraph 1 commentary. We will soon see the end of Amtrak for many of its segments in the U.S. - Oct 1st isn't that far off. Hopefully, VIA Rail will continue on - it isn't what many want it to be - but it sure beats having nothing, as in zip, zero and zilch!"

...........In summary, my point is that when the Canadian is similarly threatened, where is the support for the train going to come from and are Canadians going to care what the tourists think? At this point, I believe the shortcomings will overwhelm the "experience" of the classic Budd-built equipment, and the strong local support that is currently being displayed along many Amtrak routes today for that service will not be there for the Canadian, a train that local people do not and for many can not use.


Read on ..... some comments further "down" the line from AndrewJonathon

QUOTE: DaveKlepper Posted 28 Mar 2005, 15:12:23
I am still hoping that Amtrak's present route structure will be preserved. Of course that is a far cry from what is really required.

But do you understand (sorry this isn't Canada, but the thought might be applicable some day) that Mineta would compromise safety by having a Federal Government rebuilding of the NEC while Amtrak controls operations?

The rebuilding under traffic of Penn Sta. and the NE Corridor electrification extension under traffic were safe because one authority made decisions on both construction and operation. You split the two and you have a real potential for disaster, as did occure as you know in Paddington Station London.

You don't save money by adding another and redundant bureracracy!


Dave - The subject of Amtrak has and continues to be "emotional" for many. Sorry to have to say this - [#offtopic] I really know where you are 'coming' from - but there are so many other threads for people to 'vent' their frustrations with Amtrak .....

Still appreciate your willingness to contribute and hope you continue to do so![tup][:D]

QUOTE: andrewjonathonPosted: Today, 00:20:06
I have just been reading the thread from the last couple of days and found the discussions to be very interesting.

Regarding the service levels on the VIA's Malahat, one needs to keep in the mind the reason the train continues to exist is somewhat controversial and may affect the service offered. VIA planned to discontinued service on this line along with the other gut wrenching cuts VIA made in 1990. However, the provision of train service on Vancouver Island was part of the confederation agreement BC made with the Canadian government in 1870 when it joined Canada and as a result the courts forced VIA to abandon plans to discontinue the Malahat service. While VIA can be required to provide the service, I wonder if it affects the level of service they are provide.

In regards to the discussion about VIA's Canadian and it continued existence, I would make a couple of notes. I think that the fact the Canadian is largely a tourist train will ultimately help to ensure its operation continues in the years to come. It has been primarily a tourist train for many years. plays in the western economy. Even at the time of the 1990 VIA cuts, the arguments made for keeping the Canadian were largely based on its value to tourism. (VIA even
operates an office in Japan). Due its value as a tourist train, I believe that it will live outlive the Budd passenger cars when that day eventually comes.

The second reason I believe the Canadian will continue to be supported by the Canadian publie is role the railway played in Canada's creation. Although the Canadian itself doesn't go back that far it continues to be a symbol of the role railways played in creating Canada. Based on the public outcry to the 1990 service cuts, Canadians are proud of that history and want to maintain the historic symbols associated with it.

A few years ago VIA rail started to make noise that they wanted to return the Canadian to its original route on the CPR through the Rockies. They were unable to do so due to a contract they had signed with the Canadian Rocky Mountaineer train company. However, I believe that the contract expires in the next few years and I hope VIA will take the opportunity to move the Canadian back to its original route which really has superior scenery and even a stronger tourist potential.


Andrew - appreciate your taking the time to document your thoughts ...... well done![tup][tup][:D]

I also read about the "history" regarding the continuation of the "Malahat" and am glad that it is still operating - no matter what the reason. I'll take an RDC trip any day, any time and don't particularly care what the "label" is - "real" or "tourist."

My thoughts on the "demise" of the "Canadian" occuring when the current equipment finally reaches the end of the line is simply this: the charm of the train is all about those cars - of course, the scenery and route (surely agree that CP's routing would be fantastic!) - factor in. But they may as well change the name when they change the equipment. Case in point - when the "Ocean" began using the Renaissance cars, the "charm" of that train was lost for people like me. It was because of people like me that VIA Rail has kept a consist on the line for one easterly trip per week and return. The "Euro" cars just didn't do much for me and what I happen to enjoy. Same thing will happen on the "Canadian" one day ..... hope not, but it will.

Insofar as support for the train in concerned, it appears to me that Asians and those south of the Canadian border represent the majority of riders in the bedroom cars. Why, because VIA Rail (as has been discussed) has really tried to make the best of both worlds - a regularly scheduled passenger train now designed moreso for tourists. It isn't what we all want, but the reality smacks you between the eyes once you've made a trip or two or three or more .........

I had lunch with a fellow a couple of years ago who was in the mid-level ranks of "VIA Raildom's" management. He too spoke of the switch to CP trackage ... but I believe as many others do, it ain't gonna happen. Hope so, but more than likely not ......

See ya and thanx again! [tup][tup][:D]

QUOTE: chateauricherPosted: Today, 01:38:20
QUOTE: Originally posted by tomtrain
I would like to learn more about Montreal's commuter rail system. Is all or most of it still electrified? Is most of the Montreal metropolitan area served by these trains? Is the service extensive and well run? Does it connect well with VIA, Amtrak, other transport modes? Thanks for info.

Their web site is located at ... http://www.stcum.qc.ca/English/a-somm.htm

Montreal's metro (subway) and commuter rail systems connect quite well with each other and with inter-city trains and buses.

You can transfer directly from one of the 4 metro lines and two of the 5 of the commuter train lines directly to VIA (and Amtrak service to NYC's Penn Station). Transfers via the metro will get you from the other metro and commuter rail lines to the VIA/Amtrak terminus.

You can transfer to inter-city bus service and the airport shuttle directly from 3 of the 4 metro lines and indirectly by a short trip on the metro from the commuter trains.


[#welcome] to you chateauricher![tup][:D] Been hoping someone with your knowledge and location would climb aboard!

QUOTE: daveklepper Posted: Today, 02:41:56
But where at Central Station are the Deus Montaines trains? I used to see catenary over tracks in Central Station. Is the catenary still over two tracks used by the Deus Monataines trains, or has their platform been relocated away from the VIA trains?[\quuote]

chateauricherPosted: Today, 03:56:05
The Deux-Montagnes and the Mont-Saint-Hilaire (a new one to the south shore) lines terminate at Central Station (linked by tunnel to Bonaventure metro station).

The two lines have platforms at one end of the station, separate from the VIA trains to keep people from "jumping the turnstiles".

As for caternary lines, I can't answer that question as I have not been there in a very long time.[\quote]

OnHarry Posted: Today, 04:38:42
Regarding the St Catherines GO service or rather the potential thereof, I suspect the problem in Hamilton is that so much money and effort was expended to restore the old TH&B station in downtown Hamilton that it would be impossible to go via the CN station, even though that would make sense. The TH&B track east of Hamilton has as steep a grade as the CN west of Dundas so that would be an issue, and there is no quick and easy way for the trains to transfer from Hunter Street Station to the CN mainline.

As to CN reducing their mainline in the Niagara penninsula I don't think it had anything to do with VIa or GO but rather a penny wise pound foolish attitude on the part of CN's current management. They did the same thing from From Komoka west to Sarnia, removing the second mainline and making it single track with passing sidings, when they put in the CTC, at a time when they said they were getting increased business from intermodal service through the new tunnel at Sarnia. Makes no sense to me if you are going out to get more business that you reduce your capacity to handle it .

I have much more to say but have to go to work so will try and post more when I return this afternoon.

James (my real name )


James - no doubt you'll be "hearing" from trolleyboy and Junctionfan![tup][:D]

Appreciate your contributions![tup][:D]
=========================================
Time for me to get about my "chores" - oh the life of a retired sailor!

See y'all soon![tup][:D]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
    February 2004
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Posted by siberianmo on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 2:10 PM
CANADIAN PASSENGER RAILROADS - Let's Talk! Summary sheet ........

Thought some of you would appreciate 'where we are' with this topic ... some stats to ponder ..... My posts are more of a "moderator," therefore I've not counted them .......

I have tried to place these in nice, neat columns - but cannot seem to get this program to cooperate. So - read them as follows:

Member's name/first post/posts to my compilation of Mar 29th. Enjoy![tup][:D]

siberianmo 02 Mar 2005 NOT COUNTED
tomtrain 02 Mar 2005 xxxx
dehusman 02 Mar 2005 x
athelney 02 Mar 2005 xxxxx
Modelcar 02 Mar 2005 xx
daveklepper 02 Mar 2005 xxxxxxxxxxxxx
martin.knoepfel 02 Mar 2005 x
tatans 02 Mar 2005 xxxxxxxx
morseman 02 Mar 2005 xxxxxxxxx
lincoln5390 02 Mar 2005 x

passengerfan 03 Mar 2005 xxxxxxxxx
trainboyH16-44 03 Mar 2005 x
andrewjonathon 03 Mar 2005 xxxxxx

egmurphy 05 Mar 2005 x
selector 05 Mar 2005 xxxxxxxx

gbrewer 07 Mar 2005 x

edgarJowsey 08 Mar 2005 x

Grinandbearit 08 Mar 2005 xxxxx

trolleyboy 11 Mar 2005 xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Dayliner 12 Mar 2005 xxxxx
kevgos 12 Mar 2005 x

wrwatkins 14 Mar 2005 xxxxxxx
luct 14 Mar 2005 x

METRO 15 Mar 2005 x

OnHarry 20 Mar 2005 xxx

Junctionfan 21 Mar 2005 xxxxxxxxx

Sask_Tinplater 22 Mar 2005 xxx
valleytenderfoot 24 Mar 2005 x

CANADIANPACIFIC2816 25 Mar 2005 x
enr2099 25 Mar 2005 xxx
VerMontanan 25 Mar 2005 xxxx

drephpe 26 Mar 2005 xx

chateauricher 30 Mar 2005 xx

Interesting, wouldn't you say? Since there is no particular value to these stats, please let's not anyone get their shorts in a knot over them![tup[[:D]

See y'all soon ......

Tom in Chesterfield, MO, USA (Siberianmo)

Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
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Posted by kevgos on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 2:17 PM
Just thought I'dthrow some of my useless comments in here again, this time on the CP routing of what is now the Canadian... I read somewhere (can't recall where offhand) that the primary reasoning for the rerouting onto CN's track (through Edmonton and Jasper) was primarily that there were several "influental politicians" living along the CP line (Calgary, Regina, etc.) who were said to have made it QUITE clear that they would be glad if they never saw a passenger train again. Secondly, VIA is government, like CN was at the time, so the trackage fees were likely cheaper, if not non-existant, since the government owns all 3 (the CN trains, the CN tracks and VIA). At this point (with CN being privatised, as you Canadians would say) it likely wouldn't matter cost-wise, since VIA is still government, but the railroads are both private.
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Posted by VerMontanan on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 2:21 PM
Siberianmo stated:

"Let's dwell a bit on accuracy - the pictures I have from our December 31st, 2002 departure from Toronto en route Vancouver reveals 2 coaches in the consist. The return trip on January 5th, 2003 had 2 coaches as well. I cannot and will not debate the make up of each and every train in winter - but I know what shows up on my pictures and what I saw during our walks from the Park Car forward and return ........ I'm not familiar with the publication "Branchline," but perhaps I should send them my photos."

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You are correct, as the dates you cite are during the Christmas/New Year's holiday travel periods, which are some of the busiest of the year. (And only two coaches then?) I would guess that the number of sleepers were increased during this time, too. One coach is standard during the slowest times of the year, and the train can run with as few as four or five sleeping cars.

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"Sorry, but I grow weary of the comparison to Amtrak and points in Montana. It's hands down - they ARE two different services - and VIA Rail's is better IN MY OPINION for those wanting to take a rail journey for the pleasure of it all. That's where this all began - the pleasure of it all."

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True. To each his own. However, we all can define pleasure in our own way. I derive great pleasure from knowing that passenger trains still can be a lifeline to the communities they serve - even in remote areas of North America.

Mark Meyer

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    June 2002
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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 2:26 PM
What about coach fares? Are they reasonable enough so that the average Canadian can use the train for transportation? Even short distances like Edmonton to Jasper?
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Posted by trolleyboy on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 3:53 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by andrewjonathon

I have just been reading the thread from the last couple of days and found the discussions to be very interesting.



In regards to the discussion about VIA's Canadian and it continued existence, I would make a couple of notes. I think that the fact the Canadian is largely a tourist train will ultimately help to ensure its operation continues in the years to come. It has been primarily a tourist train for many years. However, Canada (especially British Columbia) is well acutely aware of the role tourism plays in the western economy. Even at the time of the 1990 VIA cuts, the arguments made for keeping the Canadian were largely based on its value to tourism. (VIA even operates an office in Japan). Due its value as a tourist train, I believe that it will live outlive the Budd passenger cars when that day eventually comes.
Hello I figured that i'd wade in on the "'Canadian" discussion as well. I know that 3 years ago i atempted to get passage from Toronto to Winnepeg. I was unable to because the train was booked solid not even coach seats available. This was in early June.So tourist or not it is a gold mine for VIA and I would say virtually cut proof. You have alot af Europeans , Americans,Asian et all visitors comming to Canada to speacifically ride it. Hopefully they do eventually get back onto the proper CP trackage that should only increase ridership.And yes as aregular Canadian i would still like to eventually experience the trip as well.junctionfanThat cab ride must have been something,thanks for the Caso update as well.I've always thought myself that the 406 was the road to nowhere i've often wondered why it was built in the first place.Tear it out and put a real transportation system in. Oops I've already ranted down that path. But highspeed literail is the answer for the penninsula I truly beleave that. Perhaps in time once gas gets to a completely unmanageable price spending money on the highspeed electrification will begin to make sence. I know I'll be the first persom in line to fide Niagara Falls to Toronto and all stops in between. Rob
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Posted by trolleyboy on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 4:08 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

What about coach fares? Are they reasonable enough so that the average Canadian can use the train for transportation? Even short distances like Edmonton to Jasper?
In the instance I was looking at round trip for what I wanted TO to Winnipeg would have been $450. Airfare would have been $400 on Air Canada ( I don't like flying so this wasn't a real option for me) I ended up driving St catharines to The Peg two days and $550 worth of gas. Remembering of coarse that at the time gas was .55-.65 cents a litre fot the .81-.87 of today. The Canadian was really the cheapest option. I don't imagine the prices have changed much other than gas to today's numbers. Siberianmo Branchline is published by the Bytown Railway society. www.bytownrailwaysociety.com I beleave. It's a good magazine lots of good railway information on all the small and large operations in Canada. VIA on down. Rob
  • Member since
    February 2004
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Posted by Junctionfan on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 4:19 PM
If you tried to take Jetsgo, the Canadian might have been quicker too[:D]

Well at least today.
Andrew
  • Member since
    April 2003
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 4:24 PM
For Siberianmo--

Since you love Budd RDC cars as I do you might want to check the current issue of Railway Age. CalTrans has some for sale there.

***
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: NotIn, TX
  • 617 posts
Posted by VerMontanan on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 4:27 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

What about coach fares? Are they reasonable enough so that the average Canadian can use the train for transportation? Even short distances like Edmonton to Jasper?

.
Sounded like a valid question, so I checked it out:

For travel tomorrow (March 30, 2005):

Jasper to Edmonton, 235 miles, VIA train 2, cheapest fare available is "Comfort Liberty" (coach) at $119.84 Canadian, or $99.04 US.

Meanwhile, south of the border:

Whitefi***o Havre, 255 miles, Amtrak train 8, cheapest fare available is reserved coach, $32.00 US.

A month from now, April 30, the cheapest VIA fare is "Comfort Super" at $90.95 Canadian, or $75.15 US; The fare on April 30 from Whitefi***o Havre remains at $32.

As information, Greyhound has three daily trips from Jasper to Edmonton and its one-way fare is $57.83, or $47.75US.

I would guess that at this price, there is very little local travel on the Canadian. And, remember, if you wanted to go tomorrow from, say, Valemont to Viking on the Canadian, even though you're lucky enough to have picked one of the three days per week the train runs, you're out of luck, because you didn't decide in time to book within the 48-hour limit required for travel to/from some of the "smaller" stations.

It appears that "Comfort Liberty" is the highest, or least-restrictive coach fare, and is all that is available for tomorrow. What is not known is whether the high fare is in place to limit ridership in the limited coach space, or whether the fare is just highest closest to the time of travel, as is usually the case.

As for the Empire Builder, there are indeed every day numerous people riding between Whitefish and Shelby and between Havre and Minot. Whether these people could tolerate VIA-like high fares is not known. They don't have the option of alternate bus transportation.

Mark Meyer

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    March 2004
  • From: Central Valley California
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Posted by passengerfan on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 6:41 PM
I remember one of my most memorable trips across Canada was in February 1968 on a trip that that I will never forget. I left Miami on an Air Canada DC-8 for a non-stop flight to Montreal where I grabbed a cab to Central Station and with fifteen minutes to spare boarded the westbound Panoram for Winnipeg and after a lengthy layover continued on to Vancouver on the western Panorama complet with Dome from Winnipeg. In those days the Montreal section and the Toronto section of the Panorama and Super Continental were combined and separated at Capreal in Northern Ontario. The CP Canadian sectiond from Montreal and Toronto were combined or separated at Sudbury. The Panorama was actually a full service train with equipment almost identical to the Super Continental. This included coaches a coach lounge dining car firat class lounge car and sleeping cars almost the identical makeup to the Super Continental. I don't know if CN was trying to get rid of the train or what but as I recall the layover in Winnipeg was about eight hours if one had a through ticket. Believe me Winnipeg in February is no place to be outside the station. I have heard the corner of Portage and Main is one of the coldest in Canada and I will take their word for it. The train west of Winnipeg was more crowded than the Panoram east of Winnipeg had been the Former Milwaukee Super Dome was a great place to relax and enjoy the trip with the lounge on the lower level great to talk with fellow passengers. The Sceneramic Domes as CN called them operated on the Panorama between Winnipeg and Vancouver at the time and on the Super Continental between Edmonton and Vancouver at the time. The CP had already discontinued their secondary transcontinental the Dominion by this time and Montreal CP coach yard had an excess of Park cars and Skyline cars their that had formerly operated in that train. My return from Vancouver that February 1968 was with my new wife on the Canadian to Toronto. Probably the hardest part of that trip was leaving Miami where the temperature was in the high 70's and landing in Montreal in minus temperatures later that same evening.

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