What is the rule for this (if there even is one)...about swinging on and off of moving trains in the course of doing your job as a train employee. Is the train supposed to be completely stopped or do the rules allow employees to hop on and off of slow moving trains?
Ulrich What is the rule for this (if there even is one)...about swinging on and off of moving trains in the course of doing your job as a train employee. Is the train supposed to be completely stopped or do the rules allow employees to hop on and off of slow moving trains?
It is completely verboten at my company, except in an emergency. The new hires are not trained to mount/dismount moving equipment, so how they actually do it is a mystery,
Many moons ago, when I hired, the practice was officially banned, but everyone looked the other way. We were taught to mount/dismount with the leading foot.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
SFbrkmnThis is one of the eight deadly sins--the ones you don't want to break and if you do its a automatic level S per BNSF policy. Unless otherwise authorized or in the event of an emergency, workers are not allowed to get on or off moving equipment. This is a test in which company brass audit all the time and can be conducted in any location duties require getting on or off equipment but only applies to workers that have been in position to do such. The test is a failure when a worker is observed geting on or off equip not stopped except again when authorized or in an emergency. I really have no problem w/ this rule. I hired in rr service in 1998 and the rule had been in effect since the early 90's. To be quite honest, I probably would not have seeked rr employment if you still had to bail on & off while moving. Just the impact alone on your the body takes a toll after yrs & yrs of the pounding. Nope, I'm not into tearing up my body for the sake of the rr.
I have seen it on an IC&E local in recent times. It used to be common, nearly universal, on local switching on the C&NW back in the day. You see some fairly hair raising film examples of it on older vids, even company publicity and training films. The most amazing footage I ever saw was on a Mexican railroad.
Years ago a friend and I were railfanning the BN at Yates City IL while a local switched a small yard there and the engineer yelled out "want to ride for a while? climb on next time I come by"
He didn't stop for us because that would have alerted his conductor at the end of the train -- so we had to get on and off a moving train. First and last time I have ever done it and I tried hard to remember that leading foot/trailing foot rule. Either way has its risks, and the ballast at Yates City was not tamped and flat like a yard would be. Somehow saying no the invite for a cab ride never occured to either of us ....
Dave Nelson
About 25 years ago I was involved in some litigation by a ConRail trainman who injured his foot or knee when he swung off a slowly moving locomotive into some rather large ballast - like 2'' to 3'' size - at the Martin's Creek Generating Station of PP&L. I can't recall if that was prohibited by the CR rules at the time, but as I do believe the claim was settled for like $100,000 - the injury was legitimate. At the time I wondered how on earth the railroad was ever going to be able to operate efficiently if each move had to come to a full stop before a crewman boarded or dismounted. Well, that's how it's been now for a while, and the world hasn't come to an early demise either . . . . . . so it can be done. Which is good, because I'm sure the costs of the injuries and litigation like that outweighed the few seconds of time saved - though perhaps a hundred times a day - over a long-term perspective.
Someplace I have a very short movie clip on 16mm color film from the late 1960's of a C&O crewman boarding a caboose as it went by him at about 10 MPH someplace in southern Virginia - all in 1 smooth motion - something else that's gone by the wayside and not to be seen again.
One technique that I was told back then was to attempt to board moving equipment at the leading end, not the trailing end. The rationale was that if it was going too fast for you or you didn't get a good grip, at the front end you would swing around against the side and bounce off, away from the moving car. But if you boarded at the trailing end, you might then swing around between the ends of that car and the next one, and the corner of the car you were on would tend to break your grip, thus causing you to dop down between the cars - not a good place to be, to say the least.
A few years later, I boarded a moving piece of road machinery - a 'chip spreader' - using a stirrup step in the middle of one side. I got on board OK, but in the process really banged and scraped my shin against one of the rungs or something - it took about a year before it healed and wasn't sore anymore. That was enough for me - no more boarding or leaving equipment moving faster than a crawl except in case of emergency.
- Paul North.
That's what I thought...under the careers section on CN's website they have a clip of what the conductor's job entails..and in the clip they show a couple of crew members jumping off a moving train.. CN is probably in line with the rest of the industry as far as that practice goes...this may just be a gaffe on their part. It did catch my attention though as I was under the impression that getting on/off a moving train was against the rules..
http://www.cn.ca/en/conductor-video.htm
Falcon48Where it is permitted, there's a very specific way to do it safely which is actually counterintuitive. You get on and off with the TRAILING foot, not the leading foot. The reason is that, if you do it the right way and slip, you'l likely be spun away from the train, rather than into it.
Johnny
Ulrich That's what I thought...under the careers section on CN's website they have a clip of what the conductor's job entails..and in the clip they show a couple of crew members jumping off a moving train.. CN is probably in line with the rest of the industry as far as that practice goes...this may just be a gaffe on their part. It did catch my attention though as I was under the impression that getting on/off a moving train was against the rules.. http://www.cn.ca/en/conductor-video.htm
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
coborn35Ulrich That's what I thought...under the careers section on CN's website they have a clip of what the conductor's job entails..and in the clip they show a couple of crew members jumping off a moving train.. CN is probably in line with the rest of the industry as far as that practice goes...this may just be a gaffe on their part. It did catch my attention though as I was under the impression that getting on/off a moving train was against the rules.. http://www.cn.ca/en/conductor-video.htm Nope. I believe CN is the last Class 1 that allows boarding moving equipment. Not that hard, and when done right really saves time.
Well... I can't argue with their safety record...CN is right up there at or near the top.
From my time on the ground.....they stirrup on the car is higher than it appears. You really have to get you leg up to get the stirrup, all the while holding onto the hand holds.
Practice is VERBOTTEN on my carrier and the officials no longer look the other way or they may be looking for a new job.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
We do it all the time. We do a lot of switching, so stopping for every mount-dismount would cost too much time, and we would only get one days work done, instead of 1.5 or 2. There is a fairly big passage in the safety manual on the proper method (trailing foot). If you don't feel comfortable, or there is snow-ice-bad footing, it is perfectly fine to stop the move.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
You guys got it right: Board with your lead foot first, dismount with your trailing foot first. As noted, most railroads now bar the practice. Paul, I heard the same thing you did about mounting the head end of any piece of equipment, excepting the last car of the train, for the same reason you note.
Our safety and training guy told us a lot of injuries resulted from boarding and dismounting moving equpiment. I also wonder about repetitive stress. Even if done correctly, is this not the type of thing that could wear out the cartilage in your joints after years of practice? Not a doctor and wouldn't say one way or the other, but it seems like it'd be a concern.
But I tend to agree with what several people have said: It does save a lot of time. Even if the engineer slows down a lot to let you off, it keeps the train's momentum going. In addition to the time, I wonder about the cumulative impact of all the additional starts and stops on draft gear wear, fuel usage, brake shoes, etc. Then again, it's a lot easier to fix or replace worn-out railroad equipment than it is worn-out knees or ankles, and surgery is a lot riskier and costlier than welding.
Best,
Lead foot..would that be the right or the left?...
Although slightly off topic in the sense that this isn't about getting on an off an engine it is about getting on and off a train. Until less than ten years ago a good few suburban trains in south London and Kent/Surrey and Sussex had slam doors that could be opened from the inside when the train was still moving. There are videos of trains arriving at London terminal stations with about 200 people on the platform before the train's actually stopped.
Getting on was also possible, but less easy as the trains tended to accelaerate quite sharply (they were mostly EMUs esp towards the end).
Never recomended by the authorities, but difficult to ban - didn't do much for the structural intergrity of train if it did hit the buffers either. Now all history as the only slam door trains in regular service have door locking which means the door can't be opened until the guard (conductor) has released the doors.
The very first thing we were taught, even before hand signals, even before they issued us radios, was how to entrain and detrain moving equipment.
We were informed that if we could not do this, we could not work at the PTRA, which is a Class III switching/terminal railroad.
Its easy, actually, and for me, a lot less wear and tear on the knees and ankles.
If the train is approaching you from right to left, you face the movement, grab the grab iron, place your right foot,(trailing foot) in the stirrup and just stand up, the momentum of the train simply picks you up.
You dismount in the reverse.
Select where you wish to detrain, crouch down some in the stirrup with your trailing foot somewhat out and behind you, then step off facing the movement, placing the trailing foot down first, then releasing your hand hold...the momentum will pivot you away from the train, so if you slip or stumble, you fall away, not towards the train.
It looks easy, and it is, especially when done by someone who has been getting on and off this way their entire career.
Personally, I prefer getting on moving equipment, all it requires is a small amount of common sense, if the train is moving too fast to do so safely, you tell the engineer to slow down.
Less stress on your legs, the train does all the work.
Go back and research the FRA website for personal accidents, and you will find more men hurt on cabooses because of slack action than were hurt getting on and off moving equipment.
Its as easy as stepping on and off an escalator.
Of course, in the name of risk management, we too can no longer entrain/detrain this way.
23 17 46 11
"To be quite honest, I probably would not have seeked rr employment if you still had to bail on & off while moving. Just the impact alone on your the body takes a toll after yrs & yrs of the pounding."
Gee whiz! What a bunch of wimps are on this forum. Oh the shame of it all. Back when we could get on or off moving equipment, even the men at retirement age could swing on and off with the best of 'em.
I guess if the new guys with their "walkie-talkies" had to give hand signals instead of talking into the microphone, they wouldn't have signed on either.
Folks, the "Golden Age of Railroading" is long gone!
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I have seen this practice frequently in Swiss and other European stations or yars. However, it would be exstremely dangerous to between cars to couple them before both cars stands still.
Getting on and off a tramway (not a train). We did it regularly in Zurich with older rolling-stock with open vestibules. The newer one had doors that closed before the car began to move / did not open until it stood still.
Personally I wouldn't do it....because there's nothing in it for me. Sure, the railroad saves in terms of time, maybe a little bit of fuel and wear and tear on equipment, but why risk life and limb if there's no benefit to YOU? Do you get paid more for thae added risk? Of course not. So it would make sense to only get on and off when the train is completely at a stand still...even if your employer does allow you to mount/dismount while the train is in motion...you shouldn't do it. In my 25 years in transportation I've seen enough accidents...all of them could have been prevented...many involved lifelong injuries over something stupid...like climbing down from equipment properly... note that the president of the carrier or the managers aren't the one's injured.
Ulrich Lead foot..would that be the right or the left?...
I also know enough RRers that have screwed up backs, knees, ankles, and legs due to a lifetime of jumping on and off equipment. And there's always the story of how they once dismounted while going a little too fast and imitated a tumbleweed....
I'm surprised roads still allow this... absolutely no reason for it.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
BigJim Folks, the "Golden Age of Railroading" is long gone!
And good riddance to a lot of it. A lot of that golden age stuff was pure crap that only benefited the company at the expense of its workers. That can stay in the past.
For you kinder, gentler Americans...Nobody moves, Nobody gets hurt.
BigJimFor you kinder, gentler Americans...Nobody moves, Nobody gets hurt.
Yeah, but why tear up your body to make the RR even more money? I mean, seriously, how much time are you going to lose to stop your train to get on and off?
I understand how to get on and off moving equipment, and I have never considered it to be stressful on the body. Walking through the snow can be a lot more stressful. But I don’t get this “trailing foot” terminology. When getting on, why would the first foot to hit the stirrup be called the trailing foot?
Regarding the good old days being too dangerous, I am not sure where you draw the line. In the 1800s, brakemen and switchmen routinely lost their fingers and hands, or were completely crushed when coupling cars. The need for that was eliminated. But up until recently, brakemen and switchmen continued to ride on top of cars and were either knocked off by bridges or fell off all too often. The need for that was eliminated. Then the need to get on off of moving equipment was eliminated. Somewhere along the way, trainmen were banned from riding footboards on the forward-moving end of a locomotive, but could still ride on the trailing footboards. Then they eliminated footboards.
Now, the FRA says that railroad cars have been coupled and uncoupled manually, which inherently creates risk for the operator. Therefore, a need exits to minimize this risk by physically getting the operator away from coupling operations. If they eliminate too much risk, there won't be anything left to do.
Ulrich Personally I wouldn't do it....because there's nothing in it for me. Sure, the railroad saves in terms of time, maybe a little bit of fuel and wear and tear on equipment, but why risk life and limb if there's no benefit to YOU? Do you get paid more for thae added risk? Of course not. So it would make sense to only get on and off when the train is completely at a stand still...even if your employer does allow you to mount/dismount while the train is in motion...you shouldn't do it. [snip]
I could see where the employees would be in favor of doing it if the time saved thereby came back to their benefit in the form of an 'early quit' . . .
Someone in a major railroad's Risk Management Dept. must have compiled statistics on the time and $ lost from these kinds of injuries, and compared it to the Industrial Engineering guys' estimates of the time and money saved by doing it . . . and the net for lowest total cost came up as "Don't be doing that any more".
Bucyrus I understand how to get on and off moving equipment, and I have never considered it to be stressful on the body. Walking through the snow can be a lot more stressful. But I don’t get this “trailing foot” terminology. When getting on, why would the first foot to hit the stirrup be called the trailing foot? Regarding the good old days being too dangerous, I am not sure where you draw the line. In the 1800s, brakemen and switchmen routinely lost their fingers and hands, or were completely crushed when coupling cars. The need for that was eliminated. But up until recently, brakemen and switchmen continued to ride on top of cars and were either knocked off by bridges or fell off all too often. The need for that was eliminated. Then the need to get on off of moving equipment was eliminated. Somewhere along the way, trainmen were banned from riding footboards on the forward-moving end of a locomotive, but could still ride on the trailing footboards. Then they eliminated footboards. Now, the FRA says that railroad cars have been coupled and uncoupled manually, which inherently creates risk for the operator. Therefore, a need exits to minimize this risk by physically getting the operator away from coupling operations. If they eliminate too much risk, there won't be anything left to do. Interesting point...and in answer to that I would point to an article in September Trains about MMA and how they are going to single person crews to cut cost. The job is changing....where some tasks and risks are eliminated others will crop up. Look at MMA...with one person on the train doing all the work of operating the engine and switching out cars...jumping on and off moving trains becomes a nonissue..however that person will be faced with many more challenges that the 2 and 4 person crews of the past didn't have to contend with. Just imagine...it is a cold Maine winter night...the snow is coming down and visibility is near zero... you're the ONLY crew on board and responsible for a locomotive or three and 60 cars.. anything goes wrong and you're hoofing it through the snow on your own..and you on your own have to get things going again.. A good example where one road is focused on safety as it needs to be but also in the process of making the job alot more challenging for that single on board crew member.
Paul_D_North_Jr Ulrich Personally I wouldn't do it....because there's nothing in it for me. Sure, the railroad saves in terms of time, maybe a little bit of fuel and wear and tear on equipment, but why risk life and limb if there's no benefit to YOU? Do you get paid more for thae added risk? Of course not. So it would make sense to only get on and off when the train is completely at a stand still...even if your employer does allow you to mount/dismount while the train is in motion...you shouldn't do it. [snip] I could see where the employees would be in favor of doing it if the time saved thereby came back to their benefit in the form of an 'early quit' . . . Someone in a major railroad's Risk Management Dept. must have compiled statistics on the time and $ lost from these kinds of injuries, and compared it to the Industrial Engineering guys' estimates of the time and money saved by doing it . . . and the net for lowest total cost came up as "Don't be doing that any more". - Paul North.
Except at CN where the bean counters have come to a different conclusion.
BucyrusBut I don’t get this “trailing foot” terminology. When getting on, why would the first foot to hit the stirrup be called the trailing foot?
As I understand it, as you face a train that is moving from your right to your left, your left foot is the lead foot and your right foot is your trailing foot; if the train is moving from your left to your right, your right foot is your lead foot and your left foot is your trailing foot.
I misinterpreted your previous question; sorry.
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