Getting on and off of moving trains..

[nbrodar]

 I do miss being able to mount/dismount moving equipment.   Done properly, it's not that hazardous.  It also can make many switching operations more efficient.  Saved me miles of walking!

Of course, we used to do things that would curl a current newbie's toe nails.  Maybe I'll tell, after I retire. 

Nick

[BigJim]

Deggesty

Bucyrus

But I don’t get this “trailing foot” terminology.  When getting on, why would the first foot to hit the stirrup be called the trailing foot?

As I understand it, as you face a train that is moving from your right to your left, your left foot is the lead foot and your right foot is your trailing foot; if the train is moving from your left to your right, your right foot is your lead foot and your left foot is your trailing foot.

I misinterpreted your previous question; sorry.

You still have misinterpreted the action. As Bucyrus notes, when getting on, the first foot to hit the stirrup is your lead foot. In your case above, moving from right to left, the right foot is the lead foot, because that is the foot that goes into the stirrup FIRST.
Why is this so hard to understand?
Maybe we are getting down to the real reason why some people  wouldn't want to get on and off moving equipment.

[BigJim]

Paul_D_North_Jr

Someone in a major railroad's Risk Management Dept. must have compiled statistics on the time and $ lost from these kinds of injuries, and compared it to the Industrial Engineering guys' estimates of the time and money saved by doing it . . . and the net for lowest total cost came up as "Don't be doing that any more".   

- Paul North. 

Paul,
It's more like the RR's are afraid of this "sue their butts off" society that we have evolved into today. Everyone now a days has that "Palm Trees in their eyes" look. It's a real shame because it doesn't stop there. Look what happened to the NS Steam program for one.

[BaltACD]

Ulrich

Lead foot..would that be the right or the left?...

Depends on whether the movement is moveing to your right or your left.

[Anonymous]

Therefore:

 

When alongside of a track, and facing the track in a direction perpendicular to the track;

 

If a train is passing from your left to your right;

 

Your left foot is the trailing foot. 

  

This is because your left foot is nearest the direction opposite the travel of the train (just like a trailing unit is nearest to the rear of the train).

[BigJim]

Did you not just contradict yourself?

[Anonymous]

BigJim

Did you not just contradict yourself?

Not that I can see.  How so?

Oh I think you must be referring back to earlier post where I asked why the first foot to hit the stirrup would not be the lead foot.  This leading foot/trailing foot has got to be the worst terminology possible.  I only posted above on this page to pin down the definition of trailing foot / leading foot, so we could all agree on that.  From there, it ought be possible to describe which foot to use when getting off and on.

[Murphy Siding]

Bucyrus

Therefore:

 

When alongside of a track, and facing the track in a direction perpendicular to the track;

 

If a train is passing from your left to your right;

 

Your left foot is the trailing foot. 

  

This is because your left foot is nearest the direction opposite the travel of the train (just like a trailing unit is nearest to the rear of the train).

Doesn't it depend on whether you are left-footed, or right-footed?  (Seriously.)  If you are left-handed, you are generally left-footed as well, and walk leading with that foot.  Watch kids playing soccer.  You can quickly figure out which ones are left-handed.

[Anonymous]

Murphy Siding

Bucyrus

Therefore:

 

When alongside of a track, and facing the track in a direction perpendicular to the track;

 

If a train is passing from your left to your right;

 

Your left foot is the trailing foot. 

  

This is because your left foot is nearest the direction opposite the travel of the train (just like a trailing unit is nearest to the rear of the train).

Doesn't it depend on whether you are left-footed, or right-footed?  (Seriously.)  If you are left-handed, you are generally left-footed as well, and walk leading with that foot.  Watch kids playing soccer.  You can quickly figure out which ones are left-handed.

Surely you jest.  Handedness does not enter into it.  But using the designation of a person’s left foot and right foot to describe getting on and off would be infinitely more clear than using the terms, trailing foot and leading foot.  Everybody knows their left foot from their right foot.  And it is independent of handedness.  But to accompany the designation of right foot / left foot, you need the train direction to be specified.    

It is true that “trailing” and “leading” also automatically define the train direction, which is essential to describing the boarding / un-boarding procedure.  But the terminology needs a definition.  Otherwise it is gibberish.

[Murphy Siding]

Bucyrus

Surely you jest

    Well, no.  And stop calling me Shirley!

     One of our sons is left-handed.  He's also left-footed.  If he were getting on or off a train, he'd lead with his left foot no matter which way the train was headed.  I'm right-handed, and also right-footed.  I'd lead with my right foot, no matter which way the train was headed.

    Maybe that's the reason that the description involves leading and trailing foot?  If I'm facing a stopped train, and tried to step up left foot first,  I'd probably end up on the ground.

[edblysard]

 

Yes it matter which foot, get on with the lead foot, and slip, you will do a full face meet with the equipment.

If you use your trailing foot and slip, the motion will turn you away from the equipment.

Get off on the lead foot and it will jam or stab your foot into the ballast and you will learn how to do hand stands real quickly.

Get off on the trailing foot, and if needs be, you can drag the foot till you detrain.

[Anonymous]

Murphy Siding

Bucyrus

Surely you jest

    Well, no.  One of our sons is left-handed.  He's also left-footed.  If he were getting on or off a train, he'd lead with his left foot no matter which way the train was headed.  I'm right-handed, and also right-footed.  I'd lead with my right foot, no matter which way the train was headed.

    Maybe that's the reason that the description involves leading and trailing foot?  If I'm facing a stopped train, and tried to step up left foot first,  I'd probably end up on the ground.

Okay I see what you mean.  But you are talking about a stationary train where getting on and off is like climbing or descending a stationary set of stairs. Even this is a little confusing because you descend the steps of a passenger car facing down the steps, whereas you descend the steps of a locomotive facing the opposite direction of your travel.  In other words, you face the locomotive and descend the steps backwards. 

For stationary steps of a passenger train, either going up or down, I would start with my right foot because I am right-handed, and I assume right-footed too, although I never thought about my footedness much.  I guess I would lead with my right foot in starting a descent of locomotive steps too, although I would be descending backwards.  A left-footed person would lead these moves with their left foot.

But the issue of this thread topic is the leaving the steps of a moving engine or stirrup of a moving car, and stepping onto the ground; and of stepping onto the steps of a moving engine or stirrup of a moving car, from the ground.  For those moves, you lead with one foot or the other, depending on train travel direction in relation to which side of the track you are on.  It makes no difference whether you are right or left footed. 

[BigJim]

Murphy Siding

Bucyrus

Surely you jest

    Well, no.  One of our sons is left-handed.  He's also left-footed.  If he were getting on or off a train, he'd lead with his left foot no matter which way the train was headed.  I'm right-handed, and also right-footed.  I'd lead with my right foot, no matter which way the train was headed.

    Maybe that's the reason that the description involves leading and trailing foot?  If I'm facing a stopped train, and tried to step up left foot first,  I'd probably end up on the ground.

Try looking at it this way;

If the train is moving right to left, you get up with your right foot and plant it in the right corner of the stirrup or step. If the train is moving left to right, you get up with your left foot planting it in the left corner of the stirrup or step.

You do it the same way if you are getting off. That is assuming that you are smart enough to be facing the equipment in the first place.

[Murphy Siding]

BigJim

Murphy Siding

Bucyrus

Surely you jest

    Well, no.  One of our sons is left-handed.  He's also left-footed.  If he were getting on or off a train, he'd lead with his left foot no matter which way the train was headed.  I'm right-handed, and also right-footed.  I'd lead with my right foot, no matter which way the train was headed.

    Maybe that's the reason that the description involves leading and trailing foot?  If I'm facing a stopped train, and tried to step up left foot first,  I'd probably end up on the ground.

Try looking at it this way;

If the train is moving right to left, you get up with your right foot and plant it in the right corner of the stirrup or step. If the train is moving left to right, you get up with your left foot planting it in the left corner of the stirrup or step.

You do it the same way if you are getting off. That is assuming that you are smart enough to be facing the equipment in the first place.

  Thanks. for the clarification.  I see where I was interpretting the use of the word leading wrong.

[CShaveRR]

Getting on and off the equipment was never a problem. We had a discussion about what we used to be able to do on my last day--it was a major offense to stop the hump back then, and to that end, pinpullers were encouraged to hop up, cross through, and get the pin on the other side if they couldn't do it on the right side. I only did that when I had the platform above the drawbar, of course. One would also have to climb up to knock off a handbrake in most cases--and hang on if the conductor or yardmaster stopped the shove, because slack would run out.

It doesn't make sense to talk about the lead foot when boarding--according to what some people have said here, it would be impossible to board with your trailing foot, because that would be the second foot to leave the ground! What you needed to remember is that the first foot onto the stirrup or step was the one that went into the trailing edge of that stirrup or step. Leading stirrup, except for the trailing car. Ed's got the reasoning right. Getting off, trailing foot, aimed in the direction of movement. It was easy, and brakemen used to take pride on how quickly the train was moving when they did it.

Of course, boarding a waycar at the end of the train was made easier by those curved handrails along the side. you could make the grab, grip in the other hand, and that rail would swoop you right up onto the platform. I know I've done that in excess of 12 m.p.h.

Saving time...the officers who had to explain that we could no longer do it claimed that it didn't take any longer to do it "right". But should things fall behind schedule, the fact that you now have to stop and start every time is very much a factor, especially when the operator is using a remote--they don't always respond as quickly as an engineer would. And it is totally amazing how long a move can take when a brakeman stops the engine, gets down, moves the engine, and stops again just to get on the other end! I couldn't believe some of the things I saw.

Of course, when preparing to get on or off moving equipment, we had to be aware of what we were stepping into or swinging over--always do it after you've passed the switch stand, for example. But watch for bad footing, piles of rotted grain, foreign objects, and that sort of thing.

And who said something about "jumping" off a train? CN allowed that? Oh, Gee, I wouldn't!

[SFbrkmn]

A level S is the highest form of employee probation. Breaking the same rule while on  probation can likely result in a discharge.

[Anonymous]

I was once told that a person's hands have so much gripping strength that they can hold a grip on grab irons against a pulling force that can pull the upper arms out of the shoulder sockets.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Ulrich

  That's what I thought...under the careers section on CN's website they have a clip of what the conductor's job entails..and in the clip they show a couple of crew members jumping off a moving train.. [snip]  

http://www.cn.ca/en/conductor-video.htm

Interesting video about almost all of the aspects of the conductor's job, such as ''CN conductors are always ready to report for their next shift - 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year'' - isn't there an ''Hours of Service Law'' up north ?   

The video is about 5 mins., 41 secs. long - here's where/ when the several segments pertaining to this discussion are:

• 1:23 - 1:26 - 2 guys dismounting simultaneously from the opposite sides of the end of a moving covered hopper car approaching the camera - if you look carefully you'll see that both of them turn and let their 'trailing' foot touch down first;
• 1:45 - A woman with a beltpack boards the approaching end of a moving car, which looks like a tank car;
• 5:00 - Same woman boards another moving car, a tank car moving away from the camera;
• 5:22 - Same woman dismounts from a moving car, a gondola approaching the camera;
• 5:30 - the same 2 guys board a moving car, a covered hopper moving away from the camera right after uncoupling from another car.

 Thanks for sharing that, Ulrich. 

 - Paul North. 

[edblysard]

Note that as each person Paul points out detrains, the momentum of the trains movement and their body mechanics spins them away from the train.

And, as they entrain, the same momentum/ mechanics picks them up, although the young lady does have to pull herself up some...average height people do not have to exert as much effort, but short folks like me and she do.

But the effort is no more that that needed to take the first step up a flight of stairs.

Note also that going from the stirrup to the crossover platform was done in the same movement again using the momentum of the train, the lady takes one step up in the stirrup and the next step up to the platform, all in a fluid movement.

With standing equipment you have to both pull with your arms and push with a leg to move your body mass and weight up onto the car.

Of particular interest is the close up of the lady placing her foot in the tank car stirrup, note the movement of the train and her natural placement put the trailing foot against the trailing edge of the stirrup. in the corner as it were.

Just like the stirrup on a saddle, once your foot is there, its very hard to remove it or for it to slip, and very secure, you let the train do most of the lifting.

It becomes second nature.

One thing that was drummed into our heads was this...if the train is moving fast enough that you have to think about it, the train is moving to fast for you to safely mount.

And you were expected to tell the engineer to slow down, or stop if necessary.

And on a personal note, tank cars are for me at least, the easiest to entrain and the most comfortable to ride, note the young lady positions herself on the crossover platform behind the hand rail, so any unexpected slack can not toss her off.

[Kootenay Central]

Many ways to look at a situation that could have dangerous outcomes.

Thank You.

 

 

[Anonymous]

I wonder about the standardization of the dismounting practice of getting off trailing foot first.  I know at least one road where the standard dismounting practice was to dismount leading foot first.  You would simply let go with your leading hand, and at the same time, you would disengage your leading foot, and then pivot 90 degrees outward and hit the ground with your leading foot first.  It is as natural as can be. 

 

There is no need to rely on ground contact to cause your body to rotate.  You rotate it yourself before you make ground contact.

[nbrodar]

Bucyrus

I wonder about the standardization of the dismounting practice of getting off trailing foot first.  I know at least one road where the standard dismounting practice was to dismount leading foot first.  You would simply let go with your leading hand, and at the same time, you would disengage your leading foot, and then pivot 90 degrees outward and hit the ground with your leading foot first.  It is as natural as can be. 

 

There is no need to rely on ground contact to cause your body to rotate.  You rotate it yourself before you make ground contact.

 

That's how we were taught...I never fell coming off with the leading foot, but never quite got the motion for dismounting with the trailing foot down.

Nick

[jeffhergert]

I had a training booklet, I think I gave it to the B&SV to use, that showed both leading and trailing foot methods to dismount moving equipment. 

Myself, I think the trailing foot method is safer, but I won't argue the point.  I've never done the other method.  I can't recall seeing it done, but may have many years ago.  Since we can't get off moving equipment (except in emergencies, but then your in trouble for getting into that situation) the point is moot.

Jeff 

   

  

[Anonymous]

jeffhergert

I had a training booklet, I think I gave it to the B&SV to use, that showed both leading and trailing foot methods to dismount moving equipment. 

 

 

Well that is very interesting to learn that there actually were two different acceptable methods of dismounting, and that I was not just imagining things.  To me, the trailing-foot-first dismount seems a bit odd. 

 

With that method, depending on where your foot hits the ground in relation to your body, it might swing you around.  But it also might flip you over backwards.  It also seems weird to make contact with you trailing foot with your straight trailing leg crossed over behind your leading leg.  It seems like that would have a tendency to break a tendon in the trailing knee joint, break the trailing angle, or injure the trailing hip joint.

 

[schlimm]

The mere fact that after 54 posts, it still isn't very clear how to do this suggests a lack of good, standardized practices.  No wonder there are accidents.

[richg1998]

Back in 2001 a CSX supervisor had to jump on a loco moving 12 mph and he was 52. He made it and only one time to try.

The loco was pulling a 47 car freight with no engineer and was being slowed by a CSX GP40 that had caught and  coupled to the last car so someone could jump on the loco and shut it down. This chase loco ran unloaded, “backwards” at up to 60 mph to catch the wayward freight.

This incident became the basis for the new train movie, “Unstoppable” which no way resembles the original incident..

Rich

[jeffhergert]

It is very clear to those of us who have been taught, and actually done it.  I think some of the confusion comes from trying to convey in words what really needs to be seen.

Accidents come from doing it in the wrong place or at too high of a speed. 

Jeff

[richg1998]

jeffhergert

It is very clear to those of us who have been taught, and actually done it.  I think some of the confusion comes from trying to convey in words what really needs to be seen.

Accidents come from doing it in the wrong place or at too high of a speed. 

Jeff

 

Yeah, the Male species does have a lot of trouble with this concept. Some never get a second chance to try when they should have never tried in the first place.

Rich

[Semper Vaporo]

Here is a YouTube video of the incident.  Unfortunately it does not show the actual moment when the supervisor got on the engine, so you cannot tell if it was leading or trailing foot first!  Sorry about the idiocy narration, it is from one of those sensationalistic reality news TV shows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apsKBo8-zak

 

[tree68]

jeffhergert

Accidents come from doing it in the wrong place or at too high of a speed. 

Yep - I've had a couple of times where a "slow roll" wasn't.  We're not supposed to get on or off a moving train, but it's done.  A lot depends on the experience of the worker (and the location involved).