New Layout Help

[Hamltnblue]

Howard,

One thing you should do differently in the future is start a new thread if you have a question.  Coming in on the 9th page with a new topic just confuses people and they may think they're answering the original thread the've been following. Also starting a new thread allows you to keep track of answers to your specific questions.

 

[Motley]

Hmm, ok this thing has gone 9 pages, and you still don't have a solid plan? WOW!

[Anonymous]

Howard,

I have been following this thread and I am sorry to see that it has developed a certain touch to it which it should not have. I also shot out a snipe.

We have some folks in here who combine more railroad operation knowledge and track planning expertise than you´d ever find in a book. They are all very helpful and willing to dedicate hours of their time to assist you in developing your track plan. The key word is "assist" they won´t be doing it for you - how could they, without knowing what you have in mind?

It is worthwhile listening to their comments, even if they appear to be  a little rough!

[Aralai]

I think I have said before that when I first came here seeking advice I felt some of the feedback was negative, but it has been invaluable to me. Paul was pretty blunt and I thought negative, but he has taken a lot of time and given me feedback that has saved me a ton of re-work.

I found that by being patient, showing a willingness to listen, and do the work on my end to keep posting a detailed updated layout helped a lot.

The first layout I posted was pretty much laughed off the forum. That's always tough to take, but looking back at it now - I would say the same thing. It was a combination of my inability to use Atlas RTS and not understanding how things all work together. I am getting better at using RTS and understand railroad operation much better. Certainly there are some books that were also a great help.

Seriously - take a read of my original thread here.

The next train show in our area is Feb 19 & 20 at Bradford Greenhouses in Barrie - Hwy 27 & Hwy 90.

I went last year and it was a good show. I'll be going again this year.

Also in November there is a great tour of people's layouts in the Guelph area - it is well worth it.

[Antag2002]

Oh i do most def. need the help. I just dont need the negativity i think as i said will wait till i have a concrete plan in hand before i ask for help or more advice.

there are lots of threads i can creep and learn stuff from and the more i get into this book by armstrong the more and more im understanding.

i do remember however that you do not live far fom me. (Oshawa for me). Do you know of any train shows in our area on in the near future?

i think they would be a great source of in person understanding of HO layouts.

Thank you to everyone for there help suggestions and advice.
I most likely wont be posting for a bit as i have a tonne of materials and ideas to work with to come up with a plan, a track plan and an idea about how it all should operate.

Howard

[Aralai]

Antag2002

Starting an HO Layout. I live in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada

I in Spitting distance to the CN/CP/Via/GO transit tracks. I have always been a fan of steam, and of early diesel so naturally I will be modeling somewhere between 1941 -1960.
I have a decent sized space to work with roughley 150 sqft.

Now here in lies my need for help.

 My friends and I who will be operating this layout have the need for lots of switching and industries to haul freight to and from, as well as a yard to sort and prepare the strings of cars to be moved.
But. My wife has the need for simplicity of a continuous loop so she can just set the turnouts and flick a switch and the train will do circuits while she is doing the laundry.

As for scenery I can look in my backyard and see what it looks like now but to do a model between 1941 and 1960 I need to find pictures and route maps, As well as some ideas of what industries where being served by these rails during that time.

Well that’s all I can think of right now.

Any suggestions?

Thank you in advance

Howard.

 

The only actual question you asked was "Any suggestions?"

You didn't specifically ask for pictures or where to find them, nor even for specific layout ideas, although since you did say "here in lies my need for help" followed by your desire for operating ans switching with a "But"  your wife wants a continuous loop - it's natural that people would assume you were looking for layout advice.

I think you may have been too general. Do you want layout advice? Do you want advice on where to find info about industries / pictures from a particular era / area?

Did we jump the gun and were eager to offer advice you did not really want or need?

[Antag2002]

Reply More

Starting an HO Layout. I live in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada

I in Spitting distance to the CN/CP/Via/GO transit tracks. I have always been a fan of steam, and of early diesel so naturally I will be modeling somewhere between 1941 -1960.
I have a decent sized space to work with roughley 150 sqft.

Now here in lies my need for help.

 My friends and I who will be operating this layout have the need for lots of switching and industries to haul freight to and from, as well as a yard to sort and prepare the strings of cars to be moved.
But. My wife has the need for simplicity of a continuous loop so she can just set the turnouts and flick a switch and the train will do circuits while she is doing the laundry.

As for scenery I can look in my backyard and see what it looks like now but to do a model between 1941 and 1960 I need to find pictures and route maps, As well as some ideas of what industries where being served by these rails during that time.

Well that’s all I can think of right now.

Any suggestions?

Thank you in advance

Howard.

 

this was my first post in it i asked specifically what industries where around in this area at that time . and if anyone knew where to find pictures of this area during this time.

after that i got some great advice and then i posted my first idea in which i was told i was a fool.
fine im a fool.

maybe when im done fleshing out my plans i will take some pictures of my space so everyone can clearly see what im talking about. I assume this will take some time maybe a week maybe more but i will post my plans regardless if you agree or disagree or even if you wish to bash the ideas or to help and make suggestions

Howard

[Antag2002]

richhotrain

Paulus Jas:

six inches allows for a two track staging yard. It's up to the OP if this is sufficient.    As is usual Howard does not respond to it. Nor does he with what Rich calls questionable space.

Paul

 

That is something that I notice with great regularity throughout this thread.  Ideas are dismissed or barely responded to.  If you go back and look at Paul's various layout plans, and it probably took a few hours at least to develop each one, the OP hardly pays them lip service.

As I ask myself why I continue to follow this thread, my answer is a combination of amusement and morbid curiosity.

Rich The Antagonized - LOL

my response to it was idea of the partial plan i posted. And the questionable space was answered along time ago in which i said it would make a great aisle way.to and from the furnace as well as space to operate the layout.

as for no "lip service about the 2 track plans you posted i said i like the ideas. and im using parts of them while working on my plan.

which leads me into "what plan" i am working on making a plan. 

[Anonymous]

richhotrain

 

Sir Madog:

 

... but how much headroom do you have at the stub end, if your layout is set at a min. height of, say 42" ?

 

 

If you look at antag's floor diagram that he posted yesterday, he notes a clearance of 46" from the floor to the underside of the stair.  With a layout set at a 42" height, that leaves 4", take away 2" for the height of a car and you are left with 2".

Rich

Then he must be either a midget, putting his layout at 20" or he plans to attend his staging yard through the stairs, either which one is most unlikely to work properly.

I wonder why he asking questions to the forum members, apparently he knows much better than the rest of us.

[richhotrain]

Antag2002

just a thought on how the stagging under the stair could go

Behind the furnace and water heater?  Beautiful.  This reminds me of the time that I pondered running a lift out section across my laundry tub before sanity prevailed.  I am not sure that will happen here. 

[richhotrain]

Paulus Jas

six inches allows for a two track staging yard. It's up to the OP if this is sufficient.    As is usual Howard does not respond to it. Nor does he with what Rich calls questionable space.

Paul

That is something that I notice with great regularity throughout this thread.  Ideas are dismissed or barely responded to.  If you go back and look at Paul's various layout plans, and it probably took a few hours at least to develop each one, the OP hardly pays them lip service.

As I ask myself why I continue to follow this thread, my answer is a combination of amusement and morbid curiosity.

Rich The Antagonized - LOL

[richhotrain]

Antag2002

i have started on my plan

What plan?  Therein lies the problem.

 

[richhotrain]

Sir Madog

... but how much headroom do you have at the stub end, if your layout is set at a min. height of, say 42" ?

If you look at antag's floor diagram that he posted yesterday, he notes a clearance of 46" from the floor to the underside of the stair.  With a layout set at a 42" height, that leaves 4", take away 2" for the height of a car and you are left with 2".

Rich

[Antag2002]

just went down and took a measuring tape to it actual measurements are 11" 16" 24" wich i can stand up right under them at the 24 inch spot that gives 66" from the floor.............
Yes i know im short lol

[Antag2002]

[Antag2002]

from the stubb end to the next stair up at 42" would be approx 12 inches but 11" from the stubb end would be about 16 inches.

[Anonymous]

... but how much headroom do you have at the stub end, if your layout is set at a min. height of, say 42" ?

[Antag2002]

just a thought on how the stagging under the stair could go

[Antag2002]

i have started on my plan and yes it will work i even went and cut some lumber and test fitted it in and there is lots of room even at the end where it wood meet the staircase approx 8 inches.

the shotest stagging track would only be 48 inches long but that would still hold approx 8 cars at an avarage of6inches long each.the longest track would be almost 7 feet or 84" long which would hold around 14 cars

i hope to have the first draft of the plan up by the end of this week.

Howard

[Paulus Jas]

hi gentlemen,

six inches allows for a two track staging yard. It's up to the OP if this is sufficient. As is usual Howard does not respond to it. Nor does he with what Rich calls questionable space.

BTW, the height of your layout will be critical under the stairs; i prefer a layout height of about 50". definitely not a 30" high table top.

Just an idea? The second post will make the scenes around it rather tight, with 3,5 feet at both sides it will be possible to work around it.

Paul

[richhotrain]

Aralai

I actually think staging under the stairs could work and it would be out of the way. Remember the OP said there is 6" between the water heater and the wall. On Paul's plan - the water heater is right against the wall.

Oh, it could "work" in the sense of constructing it, but just try operating it.  As soon as the first derailment occurs, regret will begin to set in.

Rich

[Aralai]

I actually think staging under the stairs could work and it would be out of the way. Remember the OP said there is 6" between the water heater and the wall. On Paul's plan - the water heater is right against the wall.

[richhotrain]

Antag2002

I also admire everyones patience as well i can be difficult to work with, But i have made drawing of more then just the yard and have had them shot down with no explainations just as alco did and you had said he was being unfair as well.

As for me to step up to the drawing board i have some elements that I have drawn up and i am trying to get them to connect as soon as this is done i will post it.

I am pretty sure i have been prettty clear on what i need and would lik to have right from the begining

if i have missed something can someone point it out? i would be happy to fill in the gap

Howard

 

You say that you can be difficult to work with.  Why is that?  It just makes it that much more difficult for anyone to help you.

Yes, you have been clear right from the start about what you need and what you like.  But, there has to be more interaction than that.

You haven't really addressed either of the two issues that I raised.  First, the use of available space is entirely unrealistic, including staging under a descending staircase. Second, having told us what you need and what you like, you have essentially sat back and waited for someone else to design a track plan to your liking.  There has to be some give and take here if you are going to get any help and advice.

Rich

 

[Antag2002]

from the right

the only things in the way woulf be 2 4x4 posts that hold up the landing other than that there all open

 

[Aralai]

Can you clarify which direction the stairs are? Do they enter the basement at the right hand side on Paul's plan or the left?

[Antag2002]

richhotrain

I admire the patience of all of those who have contributed to this thread.  This thread has been running for nearly two months with no end in sight.  In fact, it is not even near the end of the beginning.  I jumped into this thread relatively late after the OP posted on another thread that I was following.  What seemed like some small degree of progress was jettisoned when the OP completely and abruptly abandoned a proposed layout and reverted to scratch this past weekend.

I see two problems with this thread.

First, the use of available space is entirely unrealistic.  Although the entire space measures 17' x 23', a significant portion of the space is unusable because it is committed to a laundry area, furnace and water meter, and stairs.  In addtion, additional space, though open, is essentially unusable because it is reserve for access.  This leaves three connected blocks of space which Paul has efficiently utilized in his latest layout diagram.   Any notion of running staging or other track work under the staircase is utter nonsense given the space cpnsiderations as shown in the drawing that follows:

Second, after re-reading this entire thread once again, all seven pages, the OP has offered very little and has essentially sat back and waited for someone else to design a track plan to his liking.  In fact, the only substantive contribution that the OP has made was the yard layout that he posted, only to be retracted when positive critique was offered.  I agree with Paul that it is time for the OP to stop dreaming and step forward with a concrete track plan complete with whatever he wishes to incorporate whether it be a single or double mainline, a freight yard, an engine servicing faciltiy, an industrial siding, or whatever.

Rich

I also admire everyones patience as well i can be difficult to work with, But i have made drawing of more then just the yard and have had them shot down with no explainations just as alco did and you had said he was being unfair as well.

As for me to step up to the drawing board i have some elements that I have drawn up and i am trying to get them to connect as soon as this is done i will post it.

I am pretty sure i have been prettty clear on what i need and would lik to have right from the begining
if i have missed something can someone point it out? i would be happy to fill in the gap

Howard

 

[Antag2002]

Sir Madog

Antag2002:

 

I do like this even said so before but with the furnace being 12 inches from the wall and having around 6 inches to get past the water heater i could put staging under the stairs.

 

I don´t know how tall you are, but putting the staging under the stairs and having to move around a furnace and water heater to access your staging area in a limited clearance zone does not look to be a good choice to me.

 

under the stairs is completely open from the side.

[richhotrain]

I admire the patience of all of those who have contributed to this thread.  This thread has been running for nearly two months with no end in sight.  In fact, it is not even near the end of the beginning.  I jumped into this thread relatively late after the OP posted on another thread that I was following.  What seemed like some small degree of progress was jettisoned when the OP completely and abruptly abandoned a proposed layout and reverted to scratch this past weekend.

I see two problems with this thread.

First, the use of available space is entirely unrealistic.  Although the entire space measures 17' x 23', a significant portion of the space is unusable because it is committed to a laundry area, furnace and water meter, and stairs.  In addtion, additional space, though open, is essentially unusable because it is reserve for access.  This leaves three connected blocks of space which Paul has efficiently utilized in his latest layout diagram.   Any notion of running staging or other track work under the staircase is utter nonsense given the space cpnsiderations as shown in the drawing that follows:

Second, after re-reading this entire thread once again, all seven pages, the OP has offered very little and has essentially sat back and waited for someone else to design a track plan to his liking.  In fact, the only substantive contribution that the OP has made was the yard layout that he posted, only to be retracted when positive critique was offered.  I agree with Paul that it is time for the OP to stop dreaming and step forward with a concrete track plan complete with whatever he wishes to incorporate whether it be a single or double mainline, a freight yard, an engine servicing faciltiy, an industrial siding, or whatever.

Rich

[Paulus Jas]

hi Howard,

now it is time to work, no dreaming anymore. Try to draw a staging-yard under the stairs; IMHO the throat will be behind the furnace, 12 inches width is ample for a 4 or 5 track staging yard. But the very yard itself will be behind the water-heater, with space only 6 inches or 2 tracks wide.

By tilting the yard a bit, the engine-terminal could fit in the corner, labelled now "local industries". Due to length of the throats train-length will turn out to be not much more then one third of the length of the dedicated area. Six feet seems to be a good guess.

It is your turn on the drawing board!!

Paul

[Anonymous]

Antag2002

 

I do like this even said so before but with the furnace being 12 inches from the wall and having around 6 inches to get past the water heater i could put staging under the stairs.

I don´t know how tall you are, but putting the staging under the stairs and having to move around a furnace and water heater to access your staging area in a limited clearance zone does not look to be a good choice to me.

 

[Antag2002]

Paulus Jas

hi gentlemen

in the first week of December i made a drawing for that space. We seem to back to the very beginning.

This might be a starter for a debate.

The run-around for miss H.

Transfer cuts coming in from staging. A classification yard to split those cars up for 3 different industrial area's.(local, dock and industry).

Even place for an engine terminal.

Paul

I do like this even said so before but with the furnace being 12 inches from the wall and having around 6 inches to get past the water heater i could put staging under the stairs.

and maybe putting the engine terminal someplace else not sure where but maybe withthe space gained with the stagging not where it is now?

Howard

[Doug from Michigan]

I personally think this thread, along with the other thread about yard design, is great!

I've got Armstrong's and Sperandeos' (sp?) books and have spending quite a bit of time reading them.  Especially Armstrong's book Designing for Realistic Operation.  The information passed along by the members here, by trying to help someone struggle through the design process, is a great addition to all of the the book reading I've been doing.  It has really helped me to put together a much better understanding of yard operations.

Either that, or everything I've been reading is just finally starting to sink in and make sense!

[Aralai]

Yes Paul - a good starting point. This is much easier to work from.

[Paulus Jas]

hi gentlemen

in the first week of December i made a drawing for that space. We seem to back to the very beginning.

This might be a starter for a debate.

The run-around for miss H.

Transfer cuts coming in from staging. A classification yard to split those cars up for 3 different industrial area's.(local, dock and industry).

Even place for an engine terminal.

Paul

[Aralai]

Antag2002

ok everyone here it is

I do like the idea of stagging under the stairs to make it worth while it will need to be slightly lower then the rest of the layout.

OK - we are getting closer. Can you add in your proposed benchwork outline and proposed layout?

As an example - here is one of my earliest plans for my own layout I posted here:

That was last summer. I did not finalize my trackwork and layout until very recently.

[Antag2002]

ok everyone here it is

I do like the idea of stagging under the stairs to make it worth while it will need to be slightly lower then the rest of the layout.

[Michael6792]

Please see my new thread...lol

[CTValleyRR]

Michael6792

 

Paulus Jas:

 

BTW Michael, i do not think the layout you like so much is well designed, start an own thread with that one as a base, and i could give you some concerns.

 

 

 

It's not perfect & I realize that, but it's a place to start which is more than I had before. There will also need to be some modifications to fit my space but the first thing I need to do is make a detailed drawing of my space available. See, I'm learning...lol

Gentlemen -- please see my previous post on the subject (and yes, we are kind of hijacking the thread, so I'll be brief).

This was not a detailed, well thought out design.  It represents an hour or two of work, designed to overcome someone's objections that they couldn't do some things in the space they had.

It never was intended as more than "food for thought."  I agree though, that if we wanted to start a different thread, we could probably tweak it into something usable.

[CTValleyRR]

Michael,

Please feel free to plagiarize liberally.

Just understand that the amount of thought that went into this was to demonstrate to the feasibility of including the requested layout elements (he had some pictures and a rough outline of his available area).  Not a lot of thought was given to issues such as access (although he said a duckunder / cockpit was fine) and operations, other than including the open pit mine and "a couple of industries" as he had requested.

In particular, there are access problems with the hidden track against the left-hand wall.  Unless you were to build this in mirror image with that part against an aisle, you would be out of luck if you had a derailment in that tunnel, never mind trying to put scenery in the area.

So the short answer is, the design isn't ready for prime-time, but if it inspires you to create something,  that's what it was intended to do, and use it with my blessing.

[richhotrain]

Michael6792

Paulus Jas:

hi,

the fact is you had pretty accurate drawings of your basement, you removed them from your thread. The last drawing is crap indeed, i have been looking back in vain to find the originals.

The list of requirements is clear, though a discussion about the radius is a must. The length of the longest piece of equipment you want to run is important. From previous information IMAO a 30" radius , give or take a few inches, and the use of #6 switches are possible. 

Since we are grown up man, i do not prefer to talk with a guy with no name.

Paul

BTW Michael, i do not think the layout you like so much is well designed, start an own thread with that one as a base, and i could give you some concerns.

 

 

It's not perfect & I realize that, but it's a place to start which is more than I had before. There will also need to be some modifications to fit my space but the first thing I need to do is make a detailed drawing of my space available. See, I'm learning...lol

In fairness to CTValleyRR who published the drawing that he did on AnyRail, he did indicate that, "Here's an example of something I threw together".

Rich

[Michael6792]

Paulus Jas

hi,

the fact is you had pretty accurate drawings of your basement, you removed them from your thread. The last drawing is crap indeed, i have been looking back in vain to find the originals.

The list of requirements is clear, though a discussion about the radius is a must. The length of the longest piece of equipment you want to run is important. From previous information IMAO a 30" radius , give or take a few inches, and the use of #6 switches are possible. 

Since we are grown up man, i do not prefer to talk with a guy with no name.

Paul

BTW Michael, i do not think the layout you like so much is well designed, start an own thread with that one as a base, and i could give you some concerns.

 

It's not perfect & I realize that, but it's a place to start which is more than I had before. There will also need to be some modifications to fit my space but the first thing I need to do is make a detailed drawing of my space available. See, I'm learning...lol

[Paulus Jas]

hi,

the fact is you had pretty accurate drawings of your basement, you removed them from your thread. The last drawing is crap indeed, i have been looking back in vain to find the originals.

The list of requirements is clear, though a discussion about the radius is a must. The length of the longest piece of equipment you want to run is important. From previous information IMAO a 30" radius , give or take a few inches, and the use of #6 switches are possible. 

Since we are grown up man, i do not prefer to talk with a guy with no name.

Paul

BTW Michael, i do not think the layout you like so much is well designed, start an own thread with that one as a base, and i could give you some concerns.

 

[Antag2002]

CTValleyRR

Having read this entire thread and looked at some of the advice offered the OP, as well as his responses to suggestions and criticism, I'm probably a real idiot for signing on to a thread started by someone who seems to be proud to ba called Antagonist.

However, Antagonist, I have to say that I still have no idea what you're trying to do with your layout and what your real limitations and ideas are.  You also seem to be in a huge hurry.  Not only are you in too much of a hurry to type clearly, but you also don't seem to want to take the time to think through your answers.

Since you seem to have Anyrail, can you take about 2 days and post a very, very clear drawing, precisely to scale, with every obstacle, window, door and so forth clearly drawn out?  Take the time to go down there with a tape measure and put everything in its proper place, like you seem to have done with the washer and the sink.  Are the walls in the lower right really tapered, and do they really extend beyond the intersection?  If you've got an area, like the furnace and the water heater area where you really can't build layout, then it's ok to block it off, but you COULD extend staging or something under the stairs, couldn't you?  If you've already built benchwork (I hope not, with your design in such a state of flux), put that in, too. Put the exterior walls in, too.

Here's an example of something I threw together (using Anyrail) based on what one of our members said he was looking for.

If you can put something that detailed together, people can give you some really constructive advice, but really, right now, no one can do much of anything with the barrage of half-developed, poorly expressed ideas that are being thrown out right now.

See that to me is a post worth something. You may have got that shot in on the chin but then went on to use intelligence.

 when someone comes on and says, well thats crap are you retarded?. and that is the post yes i get angry. as for what i want i want industries such as produce, livestock, boxed goods, equipment such as tractors and the like .

I plan on having me and at least three friends running this layout.
I want a staging yard a classification yard and industries to serve by the railroad .
My wife wants continuous running so she can turn the trains on and watch it while doing laundry.
and she want a town so she can build the buildings for it.
 So any suggestions?
oh wait you made one and i will work on it.
the drawing of the basement

i will take the time on monday and do just that make a detailed drawing of my basement.

I have on on graph paper but putting it on the computer i have a hard time with.
Anywho

take care

[Michael6792]

CTValleyRR

Having read this entire thread and looked at some of the advice offered the OP, as well as his responses to suggestions and criticism, I'm probably a real idiot for signing on to a thread started by someone who seems to be proud to ba called Antagonist.

However, Antagonist, I have to say that I still have no idea what you're trying to do with your layout and what your real limitations and ideas are.  You also seem to be in a huge hurry.  Not only are you in too much of a hurry to type clearly, but you also don't seem to want to take the time to think through your answers.

Since you seem to have Anyrail, can you take about 2 days and post a very, very clear drawing, precisely to scale, with every obstacle, window, door and so forth clearly drawn out?  Take the time to go down there with a tape measure and put everything in its proper place, like you seem to have done with the washer and the sink.  Are the walls in the lower right really tapered, and do they really extend beyond the intersection?  If you've got an area, like the furnace and the water heater area where you really can't build layout, then it's ok to block it off, but you COULD extend staging or something under the stairs, couldn't you?  If you've already built benchwork (I hope not, with your design in such a state of flux), put that in, too. Put the exterior walls in, too.

Here's an example of something I threw together (using Anyrail) based on what one of our members said he was looking for.

If you can put something that detailed together, people can give you some really constructive advice, but really, right now, no one can do much of anything with the barrage of half-developed, poorly expressed ideas that are being thrown out right now.

Not trying to steal anyone's thread, but I like what you have here & it's close to the size room I have available. Would you mind if I based my layout off of it?

[CTValleyRR]

Having read this entire thread and looked at some of the advice offered the OP, as well as his responses to suggestions and criticism, I'm probably a real idiot for signing on to a thread started by someone who seems to be proud to ba called Antagonist.

However, Antagonist, I have to say that I still have no idea what you're trying to do with your layout and what your real limitations and ideas are.  You also seem to be in a huge hurry.  Not only are you in too much of a hurry to type clearly, but you also don't seem to want to take the time to think through your answers.

Since you seem to have Anyrail, can you take about 2 days and post a very, very clear drawing, precisely to scale, with every obstacle, window, door and so forth clearly drawn out?  Take the time to go down there with a tape measure and put everything in its proper place, like you seem to have done with the washer and the sink.  Are the walls in the lower right really tapered, and do they really extend beyond the intersection?  If you've got an area, like the furnace and the water heater area where you really can't build layout, then it's ok to block it off, but you COULD extend staging or something under the stairs, couldn't you?  If you've already built benchwork (I hope not, with your design in such a state of flux), put that in, too. Put the exterior walls in, too.

Here's an example of something I threw together (using Anyrail) based on what one of our members said he was looking for.

If you can put something that detailed together, people can give you some really constructive advice, but really, right now, no one can do much of anything with the barrage of half-developed, poorly expressed ideas that are being thrown out right now.

[Antag2002]

i guess that would help.

[Aralai]

Here is my 2 cents.

While you are asking about parts of your layout, to get good advice, people need the big picture. When I came here looking for advice, I learned that quickly and put together a plan showing my whole room with furnace, doors, windows, walls - like you have, but also included the benchwork outline and track layout.

Don't worry if you have not finalized track layout or benchwork yet, but do a preliminary plan anyway. With that AND a good description of what you want to do as far as operating etc - there are people like Paul here that can give you invaluable advice and ideas.

My first layout plan looks little like my final plan - although the basic elements were there. It went through a lot of tweaking and back and forth - thanks to Paul, Stein and others.

[Antag2002]

lol handing me over to paul??

lol rich you had some great suggestions before. why you giving up?lol

[richhotrain]

Antag2002

ok guys Here is my basment area in question.

i was planning on moving the washer and sink but this is impossible as the drain for the sink is here and i dont feel like busting out the floor to move it.

so instead i busted out the wall that was running between the furnace area and the rest of the basment so i could use the dead space as an isle for my layout.

im planning on putting the yard along the 36" aisle that will run between the layout and the stairs.So case in point Paul i made my plan to big.Help? lol i am working on a new design that will fit if any one has some ideas that are intelligent feel free other wize Please save me the annoyance of admins deleting my responses

I searched the Smilies catalog for a white flag, but I cannot find one.  I surrender anyhow. 

Paul, he is all yours. 

Rich

[Antag2002]

ok guys Here is my basment area in question.

i was planning on moving the washer and sink but this is impossible as the drain for the sink is here and i dont feel like busting out the floor to move it.

so instead i busted out the wall that was running between the furnace area and the rest of the basment so i could use the dead space as an isle for my layout.



im planning on putting the yard along the 36" aisle that will run between the layout and the stairs.So case in point Paul i made my plan to big.Help? lol i am working on a new design that will fit if any one has some ideas that are intelligent feel free other wize Please save me the annoyance of admins deleting my responses

[Antag2002]

ok i understand i have to head out for a bit when i get back i will tak ethe time to explain everything and post a diagram of what is going on

 

[richhotrain]

Antag2002

The switching lead is a little shorter than the A/D tracks so classifying longer trains could be a problem.

ok i do understand what you are saying here but i made the yard lead long enough for the longest train i plan on running.

The main line will be blocked as trains are routed from the A/D tracks to the switching lead track

any suggestions on how to fix that??

You could create a switcher pocket by extending the yard ladder.

Are you suggesting a place to park the the yard goat so its out of the way?

You could create an escape track to the main line below the classification tracks by installing a right hand turnout before the classification track ladder

what would this be used for?

antag,

I agree with Paul that a more complete layout diagram is essential, and the reason is simple.  Aside from any understanding of how you want to use the yard, a more complete layout diagram will give us an idea of your space availability and your space limitations.  None of this is apparent in the partial track plan that you have shown.

In the track plan shown, the entire space is 21' x 2', and the yard itself is 17' x 2'.  If you don't count the last three feet of the switching lead at the left, then the usable yard space is only 14' x 2'.  Within that 2 foot vertical space, you have placed 11 different horizontal tracks.  That is pretty tight.  So, the question remains, what does the rest of your track plan look like, and how much space is available for modifications to the yard plan.

The biggest problem with the current yard plan is the reverse Z shape.  Once a train enters the yard from the left on one of the arrival-departure tracks, the switcher has to come off of the mainline from the left behind the train to begin the switching process and then re-enter the mainline to eventually reach the switching lead track.  If the switcher enters from the right, once it removes the cars from the arrival-departure track, it needs to back onto the mainline, then push the cars to the switching lead track, then pull the cars onto one of the classification tracks, trapping the switcher.   So, that problem needs to be solved.

One solution to that problem would be to move the classification tracks to the left side of the yard.

Another solution, if space permits, would be to place a switching lead track up along the left side of the layout before the arrival-departure track.

The reason that I mentioned an escape track from the switching lead to the mainline is to permit mainline access from a second point for a completed train when the first point is blocked by a switcher assembling or disassembling another train at the arrival-departure tracks.

The switcher pocket suggestion was made since you need flexibility in manuevering the switcher engine around the ladder or simply to park it.

One other point.  You mentioned that the switching lead track is as long as your longest train.  Since the switching lead appears to be shorter than the arrival-departure track, perhaps you can shorten the arrival-departure track somewhat to conserve space.

Rich

[Paulus Jas]

hi Antag,

if I like to see a lot of good yard designs i read Andy Sperandeo's book or John Armstrong's. Helping to get one of those designs in your space is what i like.

It starts, besides with a drawing of your room and the place of the yard in it, with setting standards. Like train length, length of the cars and engines, radii and switch-numbers.

Second, what do you want to achieve with that yard, eg splitting up a freight train into 4 blocks for different industrial area's. Is it an engine terminal as well?

A lot is wrong on your design: the placement of the drill the very most. Numerous unnecessary S-curves everywhere and train-lengths that are not clear at all.

Paul 

 

  

 

[Antag2002]

first: why does it matter where it goes?

Second:i asked for  suggestions on the yard alone regardles of the rest of the layout.

thanks paul

 

[Paulus Jas]

antag,

You could start by showing the place of your yard in your room, the dimensions are different from those you gave earlier.

paul

[Antag2002]

hmmm ... ill try it and see what it would look like

 

[Aralai]

My 2 cents:

The runaround is too short - I have found a longer runaround works better. Of course you can use your A/D tracks if you need to.

If you flipped the stub sidings with the runaround you would save space and the yard would be more efficient and more prototypical.

 

[Antag2002]

Listen Alco.
If you think you are the be all end all of yard design wheres your book on how to do it?

[Antag2002]

The switching lead is a little shorter than the A/D tracks so classifying longer trains could be a problem.

ok i do understand what you are saying here but i made the yard lead long enough for the longest train i plan on running.

The main line will be blocked as trains are routed from the A/D tracks to the switching lead track

any suggestions on how to fix that??

You could create a switcher pocket by extending the yard ladder.

Are you suggesting a place to park the the yard goat so its out of the way?

You could create an escape track to the main line below the classification tracks by installing a right hand turnout before the classification track ladder

what would this be used for?

[richhotrain]

alco_fan

richhotrain:

 

How about a little critique or constructive comment?

 

 

Honestly, its so far off a "little" critique wont help. The whole thing is designed like a seesaw. You runaround and then run the full length back and forth for every move from the ad to the main yard. Thats not how yards work

It has all the names for a good yard. But the parts are connected as if the draftsman has no idea how yards work at all.

This is all explained in Armstrong. A couple of hours with the book would show anyone why this is wrong. Why try to explain it with a hundred more posts when he could read and learn.

LOL

C,mon, Alco, take a shot at it.  We would like to see how you might fit a yard in that space.  Even if The Antagonist doesn't get it, the rest of us will.

Rich

[alco_fan]

richhotrain

 

How about a little critique or constructive comment?

 

Honestly, its so far off a "little" critique wont help. The whole thing is designed like a seesaw. You runaround and then run the full length back and forth for every move from the ad to the main yard. Thats not how yards work

It has all the names for a good yard. But the parts are connected as if the draftsman has no idea how yards work at all.

This is all explained in Armstrong. A couple of hours with the book would show anyone why this is wrong. Why try to explain it with a hundred more posts when he could read and learn.

[richhotrain]

alco_fan

Antag2002:

here is what my yard plan looks like so far suggestions?

 

That does not remotely resemble a typical prototype yard or a well designed HO yard. If you don't know why it doesn't, read Armstrongs Track Planning for Realistic Operation before you spend more time on drawing yards. Sorry to tell you the truth straight up.

Jon

Well, that's hardly fair!

How about a little critique or constructive comment?

Rich

[alco_fan]

Antag2002

here is what my yard plan looks like so far suggestions?

That does not remotely resemble a typical prototype yard or a well designed HO yard. If you don't know why it doesn't, read Armstrongs Track Planning for Realistic Operation before you spend more time on drawing yards. Sorry to tell you the truth straight up.

Jon

[richhotrain]

Antag2002

here is what my yard plan looks like so far suggestions?

Antag,

Pretty good looking yard configuration, if you ask me.

A few thoughts based on the discussion in the Help Designing a Yard thread:

The switching lead is a little shorter than the A/D tracks so classifying longer trains could be a problem.

The main line will be blocked as trains are routed from the A/D tracks to the switching lead track.

You could create a switcher pocket by extending the yard ladder.

You could create an escape track to the main line below the classification tracks by installing a right hand turnout before the classification track ladder.

Just some thoughts.

Rich

[Michael6792]

Thanks, I'll give it a try & see how I like it.

[Antag2002]

yeh its easyer then others that i have tried but there still is a learning curve to it and if you can do it on here it has in my expeirece worked out  with real track.

give it a try the trial version will let you use upto 50 objects to see if you like it.

http://www.anyrail.com/index_en.html

and I know your not hi-jacking, you just had a question to me about something you know i have experience with. Some people on these forums can get a lil excited about chiming in on anothers thread im not one of them.

Hope it helps you.

[Michael6792]

Not trying to hi-jack your thread, but is that software fairly easy to use? I tried a trial version of win-rail & didn't like it.

[Antag2002]

here is what my yard plan looks like so far suggestions?

[Antag2002]

wow 2 days looing for it and itwas right there lol

 

[steinjr]

Antag2002

just a question does anyone know how to change an anyrail file to a different file so i can post it?

 DId you try pressing F1 (help in most windows based programs) ?

 Or to go on the file menu and look for e.g. "export as" ?

 Or go to http://www.google.com and write e.g : export picture from anyrail  ?

 Here is a page from the user manual:  http://www.anyrail.com/help_en/index.html?filetab.htm

Smile,
Stein

 

[richhotrain]

Antag2002

just a question does anyone know how to change an anyrail file to a different file so i can post it?

Dunno, but BDP did it on the thread titled Help Designing a Yard.  You might ask him.

Rich

[Antag2002]

just a question does anyone know how to change an anyrail file to a different file so i can post it?

[Aralai]

While on the surface it sounds like a good idea to be able to walk under the layout, and build a kind of boardwalk to view, it would be a lot of extra work and expense and I agree that it might work in an industrial situation with 12 foot ceilings or higher - not so much in a basement.

While access to under the layout is good to have, it is the LAYOUT that should be the focal point and designed for ease of viewing, operating and working on.

A layout at say 48" can still have good access underneath. I use a steno chair with casters to sit on and move under my layout when I need to do wiring etc.

[Antag2002]

boooooo..... seen!

[steinjr]

Antag2002

any thoughts on that?

 6 feet to underside of layout means 6 1/2 feet to top of layout, means platform has to be about 2 feet high to give you a layout surface about 4 1/2 feet high relative to where you are standing while running trains.

 1) If you stand on a 2 foot high platform , how close to the ceiling of the room is your head?

 2) If you work on the underside of the layout, you are in a corridor that is about 6 feet high, and 24-30" wide (the width of your benchwork). Now picture having forgotten a tool, needing to get out to get that tool.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[Antag2002]

any thoughts on that?

 

[Antag2002]

resembles what i have as well, with a few differnces now i was thinkning i know this could be dangerous. lol. I was thinking making the bench work high enough to walk upright under and building a platform with steps upinto it

I need now to include a beach scene as my sister has bought me some building and such that would look nice as a beach scene.

[Paulus Jas]

hi

some idea's here; the main line should be double tracked.  It 's about the orientation of several items you mentioned.

 

i did not try it out, a min radius between 27" and 30" seems possible.

paul

[Antag2002]

yes double track main the more i get into this the more imput she is putting in. what she said would be nice is for two trains to pass going in opposite directions would be appealing to her.

" Must this main line be as long as possible?"
- dont see why it cant be all the way did you have something in mind?

 More important however: no doors are indicated; how to reach the shelf in the other room? Is the open edge the only entry to your layout room
- lol didnt relize i made that kind of mistake lol i redid the drwaing with doors.

no the shelf cannot it has to stop for the door to open which now you can see as i drew it in now lol.

A 24 inch run to a industri would work maybe even get my climax in there?hmmm........

keep the ideas and questions comming lol

 

[Paulus Jas]

hi,

1)  What do you mean by "2 line main"? ; a double tracked mainline i guess. Do you want to run a lot of trains on auto-pilot over your wife's loop.

2)  Must this main line be as long as possible?

3)  More important however: no doors are indicated; how to reach the shelf in the other room? Is the open edge the only entry to your layout room.

4)  Can the shelf in the workshop be extended to the right wall?

A design issue is the width of the main room. Ten feet is not wide enough for a central-peninsula with an end blob. With two 30" wide aisles and two 18" wide shelves along the walls the remaining width for the peninsula is 24"; a nice width for an industrial area.

Paul

 

 

[Antag2002]

Ok restart my whole layout thinking. First I want to thank everyone so far for some great ideas. Now I have a vision in my head and want to project it to you guys for some feed back. I made a new drawing of my space complete with dimensions; I have also got permission from the boss about going through a wall into our workshop for an 18 inch shelf in which I will put the staging yard and a desk under it for a dispatcher’s station.
I have also decided I will move the washer and dryer.

I would like to model early fall 1950, Im going to model “somewhere in Ontario”
when I say somewhere I mean I want to take some part of the province and not others for scenic purposes.
The prototype I will be basing this loosely around would be CN/CP as they both run through my neck of the woods.

MUST HAVES
- Ho scale
- Continuous loop
- staging yard
- classification yard
- abilities for 4-5 operators (1 brings in trains from the staging yard to the classification yard, 1 sorting cars in the classification yard, and 2 running the trains to and from industries.
- A town for my Wife to build building and houses for as well as the A&W stand she found on walthers.com

Things I would like but can live without

2 line main.
Passenger service.
engine yard

As for the passenger service I think if I had the line appear and disappear say under the layout and come back up here and the would add depth to the scene.

Paul had mentioned wider radius curves then 22 inch he suggested 30 inches and larger for modern freight and passenger service. Even though I am not doing modern I come to the conclusion that if I wanted to buy and run my Favorite loco a

4-8-4 Northern I would need the bigger radius.

Some scenery I would like to include would be a lake and some rivers and creeks as well a long curve covered on both sides by trees with enough room for the right of way. I have always had this picture of a steamer puffing through a hillside with trees on both sides of the track opening up to a bridge with a shallow river running under it.

I have also been a big fan of the climax and shay type steamers if I could somehow include them that would be great maybe with an industry I could get one or both in there.

I am still looking and research industy in Southern Ontario during 1950so when I have more info on that I will narrow down the types I will included on my layout.

Well that’s it for now, if you have anymore questions, or have any comments again feel free to share or ask.

Antagonist

[Antag2002]

Lol this is true i complement her everyday, she is really the greatest. The new railroad was actually her idea to begin with as when she was younger her Dad had an extensive layout in there basement and she remembered when we had gotten togethersome 15 years ago I had a n scale layout in my apartment. We both decided with 6 kids ho would be a little more eye pleasing to the kids and when i have my railroadign buddys over ops will look a little more ineresting to observers.

Now as for n scale yes i could get 40% more layout but with almost 120% more cost in locos and rolling stock.

i will read some more and bring to you guys another track plan for you expert critics, or if someone has another great idea like Paul and Chris have had send it along i will take a peek.

still working on must haves and would likes so when they are a lil more clear i will post them up

[tgindy]

Antag2002

Would the time and effort it will take to re-plumb the washer and re-vent the dryer as well as move the wireing for both be worth a 42 sq ft gain in layout space?

This extra space should not be overlooked for dedicated staging and "yard-fiddling."

Example:  See the recent forum thread, Dave Vollmer's Layout Expansion, with two doors for his PRR Juniata Division -- Door #1 is for prototype operations and Door #2 is dedicated only to staging -- And all in N Scale to boot!  The layout expansion here is similar to your potential extra 42 sq.ft.

The real key to a meaningful layout (long-term) is "to take the long-view" -- Especially for the proper room preparation -- And the washer/dryer is part of room-prep along with lighting, etc.

You have three things going for you:

[1]  A spouse who is cooperative -- Should be complimented today!

[2]  Time to properly plan out the layout for your desired outcomes.

[3]  Layout space --  Plus you can alyways go N Scale "to fit in 40% more layout."

Again, by taking your good 'ole time, what is on paper will change as you pick up new ideas in this forum, in Model Railroader, and Kalmbach pdf-downloads + special issues + complimentary how-to articles.  You will know its right when you really feel good about the plan, that industrial building, how many cars fit on a siding, DCC wired so it works, etc.

If layout design reflects your vision -- Wasting money on something that is torn out & replaced two years later is minimized -- You and the spouse will be happier over the long-haul.

[Aralai]

Antag2002

my vision includes a around the room shelf with maybe one large penninsula. i believe i will stick to a 24 to 26 inch shelf. and i agree with you Aralai, more space just means more time and money but isnt tha what a hobby is lol. in all seriousness i wasnt really looking to make my layout bigger maybe just lay it out a little nicer for operations.

Then it might make sense to move the washer and dryer - you need to decide if it's worth the work.

[Antag2002]

my vision includes a around the room shelf with maybe one large penninsula. i believe i will stick to a 24 to 26 inch shelf. and i agree with you Aralai, more space just means more time and money but isnt tha what a hobby is lol. in all seriousness i wasnt really looking to make my layout bigger maybe just lay it out a little nicer for operations.

[Aralai]

IMHO while it may seem like a great idea to have the maximum space, I would be inclined to focus on how to set up a shelf layout and it seems like you have lots of space to do that now. If the washer and dryer are in the way and you are handy enough to re-plumb and wire properly and they are better in the moved position, then go for it, but be careful about falling into the 'more space is better' scenario. You may find it a bit overwhelming when you start to fill the space. My layout is a shelf layout - generally 2 feet deep in a U shape and while I sometimes look at my unused rec room and dream of filling it with the ultimate layout, I am both spending more than enough on my smaller layout plus will be more likely to be able to detail it nicely. Just my two cents.

 

[Antag2002]

Hi all My wife has come to me and asked if it would help if i moved the washer and dryer down to the far corner of the basement giving me another 42 sqft of space so essentially a 10 x 22 room with a 6x7 "L" extension to the one side.

I have considered it and to me sounds like it would open up a whole new world of oppertunities to layout design i guess what im asking is again just your oppinions.

Would the time and effort it will take to re-plumb the washer and re-vent the dryer as well as move the wireing for both be worth a 42 sq ft gain in layout space?
 am i really going to gain that much more room and what could i add operational wise with the new gained space i will post a rough sketch of what the layout space would look like if i moved the washer and dryer

 

[Paulus Jas]

hi

i carefully read your response,

1) if I read you right, you do not want passenger nor modern freight traffic. Remains the question of larger road or smaller wayfreight, branch or switch steamers. Important, while a 22" radius is limiting the kind of engines you can use. And so the kind of railroad you can design.

2) Stein covered the width of a shelf very well, but there must be something behind it.  My feeling is, i might be wrong of course, that you try to design a central peninsula with an end-blob. With a 22" radius and  27" aisles you have one foot left for the 2 shelves along the walls together. Just doable in HO but very tight; hence my question about N-scale. Though such a design enhances a longer main, and does not add to more switching.

3) I described how you could keep 4 operators busy on Russel Schoof's FHT. Its important to describe your wishes into railroad jobs and railroad activities. Transfer-cuts (NOT long heavy mainline trains, with big engines) coming out of staging ( big yard nearby). Those transfer cuts are divided in local jobs for various industrial districts(classification). Local switchers are picking up and setting out these cars at spots on industrial area's. Steamers and diesels have to be serviced too, so an engine terminal must be part of the show. Usually hostlers(apprentices) are doing the job in the engine terminals and the short run to the yard. Qualified engineers take over from here. All this is described very well in John Armstrong's book.

4) " i have a drawing which works out well" might be the issue; You ask questions about it without showing the background, again i might be wrong.

5) On Chris's layout the classification yard is becoming huge. Probably 4 industrial area's, so 4 tracks, two destinations  (east and west), 1 or 2 arrival tracks and a thoroughfare track that has to be kept empty for run-around-moves; in total these are 8 or 9 tracks. I envision one engineer bringing in and taking out the transfercuts from east and west; one is doing the classification(operating the yard), two engineers switching different industrial area's, while #5 is working the engine terminal. This is a railroad vision... Not said however : mainline running is limited to transfer cuts; rather light and short trains with light engines. hence a long mainline is not appropriate.  It will not be your vision, but describing such a vision has to be done before you start to design.

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

[steinjr]

Antag2002

I asked a simple question about personal opinions regarding distance from the shelf edge.

 A simple answer is : "it really depends on what you are trying to achieve". There is no simple one size fits all answer.

 Are you really asking "how narrow can I make my layout where I have a single track main"?  For an N scale train, you can make the layout maybe 2" deep at the most extreme, with or without a lip along the front (or strategically placed trees or fences) to catch any wayward trains before they take the deep plunge to the floor.

 It would look prettier (IMO) to have at least 2-3" of scenery between the main and the track for a narrow shelf, and something similar behind the track and the backdrop - ie a shelf that is minimum 6-7" deep total.

 If you are asking "where should my main be in relationship to other tracks on a deeper shelf?", then that is a different question.

 If you want to have a yard along a main, I would e.g. suggest seeing if you can run the main behind the yard, instead of between the yard and the fascia. Allows you to work the yard without leaning across the main, and tends to mean that the yard ladder will slope in such a way that you see the clearance points of the yard tracks easily.

 If you want to run a main through an industry area, running it "in the middle" (or 1/3 or 2/3rds of the way in from the fascia) will allow industry spurs on both sides of the main, instead of the main running past in front of the scene.

 Again - there really is no single one-size-fits-all meaningful answer to "how close to the edge can I get".

 You can get all the way out to the edge if you so desire. Whether that works for your scenes and for your desired operations really depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

 And you have not really said a lot about that - you have mentioned wanting 4 switching areas for yourself and friends, and a closed loop mainline for your wife. You have mentioned wanting freight and maybe wanting passenger trains, as well as mentioning transition era steam and diesel.

 Transition era steam can be pretty much anything from an 0-8-0 switcher to some huge articulated beast. Passenger traffic can be anything from long passenger trains to a single rail car. A freight train can be anything from a switcher hauling a handful of cars to some local industries to 60-70 car priority through trains.

 You mention wanting a classification yard. Do you really mean a classification yard (a big and efficient sorting & routing machine where the emphasis is on efficient and fast sorting so you can handle a large number of inbound and outbound trains in a short time), or do you just mean that you want a small yard where you can sort a few cars for a local freight train at a leisurely tempo?

 It would be easier to picture what you want to achieve (and maybe provide some more or less constructive and more or less relevant suggestions), if you can describe your vision in more detail.

 We understand that the main goal is to have fun with friends.

 But have you e.g considered two man crews? One is the engineer who moves the train, the other the conductor, who plans how to do switching, throw turnouts and uncouple cars? Or having someone function as the dispatcher? Or having one crew work the yard and another take a local freight train out on the road?

 It is not a given that doing four similar switching areas and having one man run a separate local train in each switching area is the optimal way to go.

 It comes back to what your vision is - what do you want to be able to do on your layout? The more you can tell us, the more relevant advice it would be possible to give.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

 

[Antag2002]

thank you i will take a look.

[tgindy]

You are already thinking of local transit in your layout space -- Consider adding passenger operations -- Lending a feeling of a much larger world beyond your layout.  People Transportation is also an industry -- Especially so in the 1940s-1950s -- Conducive to continuous-running plan design.

You do have space for a passenger/junction union terminal -- See the Walther's Cornerstone Union Station for inspiration.  Plus, passenger operations adds operations coordination with freight operations for timetables.

See the recent forum thread Passenger Trains Layout in Jan. MRR for different ideas.

Also think about the following Information Station PDF-downloads...

Modeling Realistic Passenger Train Operations -- Kalmbach PDF (various authors).

Freight Yards by John Armstrong -- Kalmbach PDF (note yard design emphasis).

Frank Ellison was a master at freight operations & freight layout design over 60 years ago, and his Delta Lines articles are timeless, while also fitting into the era you are modeling...

The Art of Model Railroading by Frank Ellison -- (complimentary PDF).

Realistic Freight Operations by Frank Ellison -- Kalmbach PDF.

P.S.:  2-track mainlines, if feasible, does allow for enhanced operations and in both directions for "train meets" -- Perhaps passenger on track #1 with freight on track #2 while switching on industrial sidings and/or yards with more than one operator.

[Antag2002]

"you seem completely unable to listen or read"

Seems i able to say this about you as in my first post i said 1941-1960 would be my era.

Second I also said i was mainly interested in frieght from this era, maybe i might run passenger service, but again not that important to me.

"It is about taking coherent decisions, your 22" radius expels modern freight and passenger traffic; large engines as well."

Again i never mentioned modern anything.

I had n scale i want HO and will min/max to get what i want.

I have a drawing in which i think will work well with some tweeking and i heeded your advice as well as Chriss about the books and have ordered them and will read them because i can read. and refine it. I asked a simple question about personal opinions regarding distance from the shelf edge.


If you wish to post something about that i will consider it.

Again for those you didnt read the first time.

 I have always been a fan of steam, and of early diesel so naturally I will be modeling somewhere between 1941 -1960.

I need a full loop as well as staging and classification yard.

industries to service with frieght cars.
maybe an engine yard no round house as i know they take up way more space then i can afford.

Suggestion intelligent comments and constructive critisism always welcome.

Antagonist

[Paulus Jas]

hi

you seem completely unable to listen or read;

You should begin by telling the kind of trains and operation you want. A passenger train with 90 feet long coaches or a modern freight with 90 feet long auto-racks need a 30" minimum radius; 36" or 40" would be better. If you want mainline running the emphasis will be on a long mainline. Or do you want yard switching (classification) or picking up and setting out cars from and to industries(way or local freight). Is your main a high-speed thorough fair or a laid back branch?

It is about taking coherent decisions, your 22" radius expels modern freight and passenger traffic; large engines as well.

The maximum layout space is the room you are using;  you can't enlarge it. The room-space you have must be divided in man en train space; Chris and Paul (me) gave you the same footprint; better is not possible. Unless you want to squeeze aisle-width a lot.

Wish you good luck,   did you ever thought about N-scale?

paul

 

 

 

 

 

[Antag2002]

All i am trying to figure out is im trying to max layout space and at the same time max isle aspce so at some points in the main line like where there is no industrys to worrie about if i drop shelf size own to minimum space need to model track road bed maybe some space along the right of way maybe i could drop the self to 8 inches or so but in doing that on a curve i have decided a mi of 22" radius it may come close to the edge for a bit before i can gradually back away from the edge.

[steinjr]

Antag2002

Hey everyone just a question befor ei begin layout design 2.0

how close to the edge would you pu a main line?

I know that it will need at least enought room for track bed and such but should there be an inch  or more or less?

thanks

 I would start by definining what you are trying to achieve. The question about where to put the mainline comes way, way, way down the list of design decisions.

 A good place for a mainline could e.g. be about 1/3rd of the way in from the fascia, allowing both foregound and background scenes around the mainline - with the mainline running _through_ the area, instead of in front of the area.

 Or 2/3rds of the way in from the fascia towards the backdrop, if you want more focus on the foreground - e.g. a yard pof some kind or some industries or whatever.

 It really depends on what you are trying to model.

 Concentrating on how far you can push the boundaries to cram in as much track as at all possible will not necessarily give you a layout that will be interesting to look at or to run trains in.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[Antag2002]

Hey everyone just a question befor ei begin layout design 2.0

how close to the edge would you pu a main line?

I know that it will need at least enought room for track bed and such but should there be an inch  or more or less?

thanks

[Antag2002]

well operation to me is not just main line running but i do need a continues main for my wife she like watching the trains just go around the layout. In myminds eye i would like 4 seperate operating "spaces" so really not much movement on the part of the  operators. buy this i mean i dont want to be shunting cars into some industies and have My  buddy Lee trying to squeeze buy me in a 24" isle way.
considering we are both on the heavy side. I will add that book to my list of must reads

[Paulus Jas]

hi,

as usual there is no straight answer. It depends on what you want the operators to do.

in your first entry you talked about a switching pike. One of the nicest design is by Russel Schoof, the Free Haven Terminal (FHT). One operator brings in trains from staging to a classification yard and back and functions as a superintendent. The second is switching these trains into different locals (classification); while two other operators are switching the various parts of Russel's dock sides. The plan is described in 48 Top-notch Track Plans.

If operating is running trains over a mainline, we have a totally different form of operation. The NKP by Tony Koester is a great example of railroading in the dark; dispatching trains over a single track mainline, in a time no CTC or electronic devises were used.

A good plan should start by you, being very specific about what you want. You have ample space...., a version of the FHT would be a good choice, operationally the designs by Chris and me were about the same.

Paul

 

[Antag2002]

was looking over my space and my plan today and got to thinking. do i need double track mainline if there will be more then one operater

my first answer o myself was yes, but then i thought no because it would make switching intersting then i rethought and said yes cos when there is 4 operators it will get jammed and frustrating. what are your thoughts guys?

 

[Antag2002]

Thanks guys i will look into those two books.

I also didnt plan on trying to build the track straight from this plan. another reason for not putting in the engine yard tracks as i have no idea which building models i will use for eg.

there are a few models of coaling tower and depending on the one i choose the tracks to it under it and around it will be much different then the next one.

 have faith all im not a fool and this is not my first layout just my first layout that will be built for operation for more than just myself. i previously had a 8x8x5 "U"  shaped N scale layout in my spare room in my old apartment.

as for the plan i drew i used templates made by woodland scenics that comes with there mod u rail system for the most part until i cam to the realization i will make a tonne of changes before i am completly satisfied to build the layout i will free hand the rest of the drawing

.
i was thinking 22" min radius
min No4 turnout No6 where the space allowes
max 2% grade
and the track underneath the layout is for a longer mainline run just about a twice around mainline.

again thanks guys.
And remmember i am always open to comment, suggestions and new ideas.

antagonist

[steinjr]

  Antag - I second the recommendation to get e.g. Lance Mindheim's "How to Design a Small Switching Layout", which will teach you about some rules of the thumb for designing small layouts and some tricks to make a simple track plan be interesting switching.

 And John Armstrong's "Track Planning for Realistic Operations" will teach you more about how real railroads work and some standard tricks of the model railroading trade - like yard ladders, curve radii, inclines etc. Considered by many the bible of track planning.

 Quick recap of some important factors in a H0 scale design:

 1) Distance track center to track center between two neighboring tracks : straights - 2", curves - 2 1/8" or 2 1/4" (at least if you are going to run longer rolling stock).

2) Turnouts - sharpest turnout there is is a #4, #6 is usually a better choice for most applications

 . Quick rule of thumb when drawing turnouts - to get 2" to the side (center distance between two parallel tracks), for a #4 turnout you need to move 8" (4x2") forward. For a #6 turnout, you need to move 12" (6x2") forward.

 Yard ladders eat space surprisingly fast. To branch out to four tracks using a straight unmodified ladder of #6 turnouts, you need about four feet of length for the ladder.

 3) Length of equipment - HO scale is 1:87.1.

 Take length of real railroad car or object - say e.g. 60 feet - convert to inches - 60 x 12 = 720 inches, divide by 87.1 to see model length: 8.2". If you need room for five such cars, you need a piece of track that is 8.2 x 5 = 41" long.

 What type of cars and what length of trains you are designing for is an important design consideration. Pick an era you want to model, pick cars, and calculate how long your cars and your trains will be.

4) Curves - to have cars go through them flawlessly with standard beginner track work they should have a curve radius of at least 3 times the length of your longest piece of rolling stock. If you run cars that are 8.2" long, your curves need a radius to the center of the track of 3 x 8.2" = 24.6".

 To have couplers automatically mate on curves, e.g. in the coupling area of curved yards, you need a radius of 5 x length of longest piece of rolling stock. For 8.2" cars, that is 41" radius curves.

Take a string or a stick, fasten pencil to end, fix center point (thumb tack?) and draw curve.

5) Inclines - with H0 scale, if one track is supposed to cross over another train (on a thin bridge), you can make do with 3" of vertical separation, track to track.

 Remember that some of that distance is lost to the thickness of whatever is supporting the track crossing over (a bridge or something) - you will not have a full 3" of clearance over the bottom track.

 How long do you need to climb 3"? Slopes take more space than you think.

 Quick rule of the thumb - "percent" means "per hundred". 3% means 3 (something) per 100 (something). E.g. 3" per 100". So at 3% incline, you need 100" of running length to climb three inches. 100" is the same as 8.3 feet.

 3% is a fairly steep slope. If you want to run long trains, stay below 2%. Then it takes 150" of length to climb 3".

 You can do things like splitting the difference - have one track go downhill 1.5" at 3% drop while the other go uphill 1.5" at 3% rise until the point where they cross each other. Then you only need half the distance from the point where the tracks split to the point they cross each other.

 But since there is no such thing as a free lunch - you now also have your one track 1.5" down from the level you were at, and you will need to do a climb again somewhere further along the track to get back to the same level (if you have a closed loop).

 If you want to have several levels of layout (not just a quick bridge), you need room to reach in on the level below. The supports for the upper level will also be thicker if it needs to support a full layout - and there will be things sticking down from the ceiling (wires, turnout machines etc).

 Recommended distance between levels is minimum 6" for a not scenicked staging level  - so you can get your hand in there when something needs work.  Takes lots of space to go down 6" at a 3% drop - about 16 feet of length, using the numbers from up above.

 There are lots of tricks to use space efficiently.

 But if you as a rule of the thumb remembers these, you will have better chance of drawing a realistic track plan by hand:

 - Train and car lengths : convert length of real life car to inches, divide by 87.1
 - Curve radius should be in the range 22-26"
 - Distance track center to track center for neighboring tracks: 2"
 - A foot of length per turnout
 - Length of incline for an over/under : minimum 8 feet

Smile,
Stein

 

[Paulus Jas]

hi antag,

i hope this is not a serious attempt. Drawing freehand is fooling yourself in a major way; unless you have gained much more experience.

1) switch angles are unbelievable.

2)spacing is way to less at several places

3)the aisles are way to narrow

4)grades are way to steep and often impossible.

I could make this list much longer ......... .

Track Planning For Realistic Operation by the late John Armstrong would be a wise investment. Reading through Lance Mindheim's How To Design A Small Switching Layout would be an idea too.

Paul

 

 

[Antag2002]

ok here is the first draft of the plan.

blue represents the walls or backdrops and the pink access to veiwing operatin ect. black ar the tracks and the dotted line is track underneathe the main layout.

I stated with a beautiful inustrial switching layout found on this site and went from there.

Its the Progressive rail Airlake industrial park layout.

i also found that if i put a 1 foot by 15 foot shelf on the otherside of the wall i could hide stagging tracks that dont need to be sceniced. i square on the graph paper equals 6 inches on the layout.
the benchwork will prolly start at about the 48 inch high range.

questions, comments and advice always welcome.



Antagonist

PS. the space with writting and no track plan was left like that for an engine terminal and servicing area

[HHPATH56]

Welcome to the Forum. Is the room 10'x15'(or what are the dimensions)? Around the room layouts with wide peninsulas, are preferable to a 4'x8'set in the middle of the room,(especially for HO layouts, where the minimum radius curves should be 24 inches,if you plan on passenger trains. I was fortunate to be able to build a two stall garage, with a loft with an inside stairway to my 23'x23'around the room layout. I am using a Digtrax Super Chief, but you probably could get by with a Digitrax Zepher. I use a tethered 4 district set-up, with manual controls,(but go for wireless radio control,if you can afford it). The 4 districts are controlled by four operators,(that each,also, control 24 electrically controlled turnouts). I just purchased the Track Layer version of "TrainPlayer.com" It includes the 101 layouts, with the ability to draw your own layout, and then place locos of any era and cars on the layouts, to run on the computer screen as an "Armchair Model Railroader". It's terrific, (especially in chilly Michigan, with an unheated garage loft layout. Post a photo of your proposed layout, and the room. Bob Hahn

[Antag2002]

ok i am in the middle of drawing out a track plan the old fashioned way (paper and pencil) As soon as i have a first draft i will scan and post it .

[Antag2002]

when you say cassette do you mean http://www.bandrmodelrailways.co.uk/Accessories.html something like this? that would work well in the place of a round house.. I do like round houses and turntables i also like the idea of the whole engine yard but from what i see it takes a tonne of space.

[Paulus Jas]

hi

about the same idea;  a cassette could be added to the track at the very left; facing your wife's space.

paul

[Antag2002]

makes sense. i am sure 24 inches will do as it wil max layout an max ailes size as well

[tommy2tap]

on a shelf you can effectively model a large industry in a space as narrow as 8 inches a reach of 36 to the back of the layout is asking for your scenery modeling to get wrecked by people reaching in to uncouple cars and rerail the occasional errant piece of equipment. it also causes the model building budget to expand from having to use more structures and scenery materials to complete the scene

[stilson4283]

It would be multi-level but it would only have 6" of clearance to allow some room to reach in but not enough clearance where that would be something scenic.

 

Also keep in mind you can have those industries at the towns as well, for this drawing I didn't take the time to draw in industries or sidings.

Chris 

[Antag2002]

I like the idea but when you say branch to industies over staging yard are you suggesting multi level? Im not adverse to the idea of multi levels. and i am hoping to maybe have some team tracks for farmers to load rail cars with produse and such i like that idea as well

 

[Antag2002]

on your plan there you have branch to industries over staging are you suggesting multi level?

[stilson4283]

Here is something to think about:

 

It has 30" radius curves, staging, two industrial branches (one above the staging yards not shown), continuous loop running, and two towns.  The isles are 30" except near town 2 and in the industrial branch.  Plus you can make it easier to get around with making track over the walkway a swing gate.

 

Something to think about.

V/R

Chris

Warner Robins, GA

[Antag2002]

ok here it is this is what im thinking at this point as far as bench work goes. Questions comments CONTRUCTIVE critism please.

the green is the possible bench work. of course the yard man can stand in the off limits are to opperate the others will have to duck under and operate from inside[View:http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/themes/trc/utility/:550:0]

[Antag2002]

Rake (train), a physical railway train made up of coaches, or a coupled group of coaches

im not saying you are wrong but why is 36 inches too deep?

im thinking 36 would give me plenty of room for large indudtries on the far side of the tracks a s well as mills  cliffs and the like.

[alco_fan]

Antag2002

 putt together rakes?

You are building a golf course?

36 inches is too deep. 30 inches should be the max

[Antag2002]

ok now looking for pros and cons of this idea from people who have been there and people who have a mond for this sort of stuff.

in the 4x8 area directly across from the off limits area seems like a good place for a engine/classification yard or should i split these up? 

Im also thinking maybe 36 inch shelves with lots of scenery behind the lines to add depth so arms reach shouldnt be a problem while operating and a duck under to get inside the layout.

I plan on running passenger service as well as mixed freight to service industry,

tethered controls good enough or are wireless worth the money?

i have a digitrax DSC 50 from my old layout will this be good enough for multi ho loco control or should i use this system for Track compoents such as signaling and the like.

while running this layout im looking at around 3 to 4 operators and on occasion a 5th to act as dispatcher, when the 5th i not there do you guys think that it would be too much for the yard man to dispatch as well as putt together rakes?

[A. Wallace]

When designing the benchwork, remember to leave space to work underneath after the scenery is in place. Leave plenty of space around switch machines to wire, re-wire, replace them, and adjust them. You may be agile now, but passing years will inevitably make maintenance more difficult. After 65 years in the hobby, I know how it goes.

[Antag2002]

a freind of mine just stopped in, he will be lending me countless hours of help with this layout as he will be one of the guys comin to  operate it during construction(a railroad is never done silly).
he purchased a an atlas layout book "Seven Steps-by-step HO LAYOUTS" the central midland jumped at me i love the idea of the train running under the table for  a bit of the the main line run.and the open grid benchwork looks easy to do.

the shelf idea is great as well with the penisula ide i could but intusties off the main line alowwing the main line to drop from say 2 or 4 running paralel down to one or two and still have main line traffic running without interuption.

any other idea guys(girls if your out there)
im getting a clearer picture in mind as the minutes go by.

[Antag2002]

in the drawing of my basement the area with measurements around it is the space i am going to be using and no i have a workbench with all my tools in a seperate room. this whole are is going to be dedicated to trains. I havnt decided yet if i want to base my model off an real live area or freelance it i know i love shays and climax locos so an industrie such as logging would fit well

 

[gandydancer19]

One of the major issues you will face will be designing a layout or track plan.  The first thing to do is define the space that you have.  How much of the room can you use?  Do you need to have a workbench in the same room?  You will get more running track if your layout is along the walls with a peninsula or two sticking out toward the center if you have room.  The longest that you can reach things is about 24 inches.  Thus quite a few folks make their benchwork 18 to 24 inches wide.  The peninsulas can be wider because you will have access from both sides and the end.

What I do for layout design (have done so far) is define my area and benchwork first.  Next I decide on a theme.  (Mainline running, with a branch line(?) or other special interests.)  Then I put in a mainline.  I am fond of twice around the room types divided by scenery and grades. 
Since I have gotten into operations, I also have a staging area of some sort, whether it is a lay-over for entire trains, or a yard that simulates an interchange yard.  One track in staging is a through track for continuous running.  If I put cars on it, the layout becomes point to point for operations.
Next I try and determine how many small towns I can have, and possibility one city with a yard and loco facilities, without them crowding one another.  Usually small yards and facilities unless I have the room for larger ones.  I will try to fit in a way-side industry or two just for variation as long as it won't crowd things.
Then I go looking at plans for modular railroads. I look for ones that would make good towns or cities because their track plans are usually fairly compact, and most of the way they will be switched is already determined with a good track plan themselves.
Because I freelance, I don't worry about town and city names etc., but if you want to model a specific prototype, you can name the towns as the railroad you are modeling would, and build or plan you scenery to suite the area you want to model. Also, some of the industries that may be recognizable in a town you choose to name from a real one may have to be built or otherwise implied to achieve the "feeling" of the real town.
When building starts, I try and get all of the benchwork built first.  Then plan where the towns will go and install the mainline to get some trains running.  Then I work on one of the yards so I can store stuff when not running.  Then I plug along on the other track work and scenery design and continue from there.

You can think about and play with a bench / layout design while you are getting the room ready.  As was said before in other posts;  "That means lighting and backdrop installation but also can include things like drop ceiling, carpeting, etc.  Things that make for a pleasing environment.  That will be more important to some than others and only you can decide that.  All these things are much easier to do before you start building the layout."

If you want to start building right away, build a switching module that can become a town on part of your layout.  Something about 2 X 6 or so.

By the way.  If you copy and paste these posts into a document and save it on your computer, you can refer back to them instead of trying to remember everything.

Hope this helps.

[Antag2002]

This layout will most def be dcc as there will be multiple users and multiple locos.

[Paulus Jas]

hi,

don't  worry about it, it's done by photobucket.

paul

[Antag2002]

thank you anyway of scaling the drawing down ?

[Paulus Jas]

hi

most posters are member of   http://photobucket.com/.  You'll have to upload your pics on that site, copy the image number, and paste the number on here.

and yes, without a good drawing of your space you will not get appropriate responses.

paul

[Antag2002]

[Aralai]

Welcome! I am in Newmarket, ON and am in the process of building my own HO layout. Check my signature for details of the layout and progress photos.

It sounds like we have a similar need to have a continuous loop and switching.

I am currently running DC not DCC, and have a dual control with one zone controlling my yard and track to several industries/sidings, while the other zone can run a train on a continuous loop.

My layout is basically a shelf layout with a duckunder to complete the loop. I am at the stage where I am finally happy with the track and it is tested fully, and now starting to work on scenery and industries. The sidings are not 100% completely done, as I need to make sure they integrate properly with structures etc.

I think based on my experience it would not be difficult to achieve both goals - probably even easier if you are using DCC.

 

 

[Anonymous]

to the MR forum, Antag2002!

There are quite a few layout ideas which combine continuous running with switching operation, so that should be not a problem to come up with workable ideas, but:

Without knowing your room, it is going to be quite difficult to make a suggestion. There are some fine and helpful folks in here, but they need to know the dimensions of your room. The best is to provide us with a fairly accurate drawing of your room, including any obstacles, like doors, washing machine, dryer, heater - you name it, that have a fixed location.