New Layout Help

[Antag2002]

Starting an HO Layout. I live in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada

I in Spitting distance to the CN/CP/Via/GO transit tracks. I have always been a fan of steam, and of early diesel so naturally I will be modeling somewhere between 1941 -1960.
I have a decent sized space to work with roughley 150 sqft.

Now here in lies my need for help.

 My friends and I who will be operating this layout have the need for lots of switching and industries to haul freight to and from, as well as a yard to sort and prepare the strings of cars to be moved.
But. My wife has the need for simplicity of a continuous loop so she can just set the turnouts and flick a switch and the train will do circuits while she is doing the laundry.

As for scenery I can look in my backyard and see what it looks like now but to do a model between 1941 and 1960 I need to find pictures and route maps, As well as some ideas of what industries where being served by these rails during that time.

Well that’s all I can think of right now.

Any suggestions?

Thank you in advance

Howard.

 

[Anonymous]

to the MR forum, Antag2002!

There are quite a few layout ideas which combine continuous running with switching operation, so that should be not a problem to come up with workable ideas, but:

Without knowing your room, it is going to be quite difficult to make a suggestion. There are some fine and helpful folks in here, but they need to know the dimensions of your room. The best is to provide us with a fairly accurate drawing of your room, including any obstacles, like doors, washing machine, dryer, heater - you name it, that have a fixed location.

[Aralai]

Welcome! I am in Newmarket, ON and am in the process of building my own HO layout. Check my signature for details of the layout and progress photos.

It sounds like we have a similar need to have a continuous loop and switching.

I am currently running DC not DCC, and have a dual control with one zone controlling my yard and track to several industries/sidings, while the other zone can run a train on a continuous loop.

My layout is basically a shelf layout with a duckunder to complete the loop. I am at the stage where I am finally happy with the track and it is tested fully, and now starting to work on scenery and industries. The sidings are not 100% completely done, as I need to make sure they integrate properly with structures etc.

I think based on my experience it would not be difficult to achieve both goals - probably even easier if you are using DCC.

 

 

[Antag2002]

[Paulus Jas]

hi

most posters are member of   http://photobucket.com/.  You'll have to upload your pics on that site, copy the image number, and paste the number on here.

and yes, without a good drawing of your space you will not get appropriate responses.

paul

[Antag2002]

thank you anyway of scaling the drawing down ?

[Paulus Jas]

hi,

don't  worry about it, it's done by photobucket.

paul

[Antag2002]

This layout will most def be dcc as there will be multiple users and multiple locos.

[gandydancer19]

One of the major issues you will face will be designing a layout or track plan.  The first thing to do is define the space that you have.  How much of the room can you use?  Do you need to have a workbench in the same room?  You will get more running track if your layout is along the walls with a peninsula or two sticking out toward the center if you have room.  The longest that you can reach things is about 24 inches.  Thus quite a few folks make their benchwork 18 to 24 inches wide.  The peninsulas can be wider because you will have access from both sides and the end.

What I do for layout design (have done so far) is define my area and benchwork first.  Next I decide on a theme.  (Mainline running, with a branch line(?) or other special interests.)  Then I put in a mainline.  I am fond of twice around the room types divided by scenery and grades. 
Since I have gotten into operations, I also have a staging area of some sort, whether it is a lay-over for entire trains, or a yard that simulates an interchange yard.  One track in staging is a through track for continuous running.  If I put cars on it, the layout becomes point to point for operations.
Next I try and determine how many small towns I can have, and possibility one city with a yard and loco facilities, without them crowding one another.  Usually small yards and facilities unless I have the room for larger ones.  I will try to fit in a way-side industry or two just for variation as long as it won't crowd things.
Then I go looking at plans for modular railroads. I look for ones that would make good towns or cities because their track plans are usually fairly compact, and most of the way they will be switched is already determined with a good track plan themselves.
Because I freelance, I don't worry about town and city names etc., but if you want to model a specific prototype, you can name the towns as the railroad you are modeling would, and build or plan you scenery to suite the area you want to model. Also, some of the industries that may be recognizable in a town you choose to name from a real one may have to be built or otherwise implied to achieve the "feeling" of the real town.
When building starts, I try and get all of the benchwork built first.  Then plan where the towns will go and install the mainline to get some trains running.  Then I work on one of the yards so I can store stuff when not running.  Then I plug along on the other track work and scenery design and continue from there.

You can think about and play with a bench / layout design while you are getting the room ready.  As was said before in other posts;  "That means lighting and backdrop installation but also can include things like drop ceiling, carpeting, etc.  Things that make for a pleasing environment.  That will be more important to some than others and only you can decide that.  All these things are much easier to do before you start building the layout."

If you want to start building right away, build a switching module that can become a town on part of your layout.  Something about 2 X 6 or so.

By the way.  If you copy and paste these posts into a document and save it on your computer, you can refer back to them instead of trying to remember everything.

Hope this helps.

[Antag2002]

in the drawing of my basement the area with measurements around it is the space i am going to be using and no i have a workbench with all my tools in a seperate room. this whole are is going to be dedicated to trains. I havnt decided yet if i want to base my model off an real live area or freelance it i know i love shays and climax locos so an industrie such as logging would fit well

 

[Antag2002]

a freind of mine just stopped in, he will be lending me countless hours of help with this layout as he will be one of the guys comin to  operate it during construction(a railroad is never done silly).
he purchased a an atlas layout book "Seven Steps-by-step HO LAYOUTS" the central midland jumped at me i love the idea of the train running under the table for  a bit of the the main line run.and the open grid benchwork looks easy to do.

the shelf idea is great as well with the penisula ide i could but intusties off the main line alowwing the main line to drop from say 2 or 4 running paralel down to one or two and still have main line traffic running without interuption.

any other idea guys(girls if your out there)
im getting a clearer picture in mind as the minutes go by.

[A. Wallace]

When designing the benchwork, remember to leave space to work underneath after the scenery is in place. Leave plenty of space around switch machines to wire, re-wire, replace them, and adjust them. You may be agile now, but passing years will inevitably make maintenance more difficult. After 65 years in the hobby, I know how it goes.

[Antag2002]

ok now looking for pros and cons of this idea from people who have been there and people who have a mond for this sort of stuff.

in the 4x8 area directly across from the off limits area seems like a good place for a engine/classification yard or should i split these up? 

Im also thinking maybe 36 inch shelves with lots of scenery behind the lines to add depth so arms reach shouldnt be a problem while operating and a duck under to get inside the layout.

I plan on running passenger service as well as mixed freight to service industry,

tethered controls good enough or are wireless worth the money?

i have a digitrax DSC 50 from my old layout will this be good enough for multi ho loco control or should i use this system for Track compoents such as signaling and the like.

while running this layout im looking at around 3 to 4 operators and on occasion a 5th to act as dispatcher, when the 5th i not there do you guys think that it would be too much for the yard man to dispatch as well as putt together rakes?

[alco_fan]

Antag2002

 putt together rakes?

You are building a golf course?

36 inches is too deep. 30 inches should be the max

[Antag2002]

Rake (train), a physical railway train made up of coaches, or a coupled group of coaches

im not saying you are wrong but why is 36 inches too deep?

im thinking 36 would give me plenty of room for large indudtries on the far side of the tracks a s well as mills  cliffs and the like.

[Antag2002]

ok here it is this is what im thinking at this point as far as bench work goes. Questions comments CONTRUCTIVE critism please.

the green is the possible bench work. of course the yard man can stand in the off limits are to opperate the others will have to duck under and operate from inside[View:http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/themes/trc/utility/:550:0]

[stilson4283]

Here is something to think about:

 

It has 30" radius curves, staging, two industrial branches (one above the staging yards not shown), continuous loop running, and two towns.  The isles are 30" except near town 2 and in the industrial branch.  Plus you can make it easier to get around with making track over the walkway a swing gate.

 

Something to think about.

V/R

Chris

Warner Robins, GA

[Antag2002]

on your plan there you have branch to industries over staging are you suggesting multi level?

[Antag2002]

I like the idea but when you say branch to industies over staging yard are you suggesting multi level? Im not adverse to the idea of multi levels. and i am hoping to maybe have some team tracks for farmers to load rail cars with produse and such i like that idea as well

 

[stilson4283]

It would be multi-level but it would only have 6" of clearance to allow some room to reach in but not enough clearance where that would be something scenic.

 

Also keep in mind you can have those industries at the towns as well, for this drawing I didn't take the time to draw in industries or sidings.

Chris 

[tommy2tap]

on a shelf you can effectively model a large industry in a space as narrow as 8 inches a reach of 36 to the back of the layout is asking for your scenery modeling to get wrecked by people reaching in to uncouple cars and rerail the occasional errant piece of equipment. it also causes the model building budget to expand from having to use more structures and scenery materials to complete the scene

[Antag2002]

makes sense. i am sure 24 inches will do as it wil max layout an max ailes size as well

[Paulus Jas]

hi

about the same idea;  a cassette could be added to the track at the very left; facing your wife's space.

paul

[Antag2002]

when you say cassette do you mean http://www.bandrmodelrailways.co.uk/Accessories.html something like this? that would work well in the place of a round house.. I do like round houses and turntables i also like the idea of the whole engine yard but from what i see it takes a tonne of space.

[Antag2002]

ok i am in the middle of drawing out a track plan the old fashioned way (paper and pencil) As soon as i have a first draft i will scan and post it .

[HHPATH56]

Welcome to the Forum. Is the room 10'x15'(or what are the dimensions)? Around the room layouts with wide peninsulas, are preferable to a 4'x8'set in the middle of the room,(especially for HO layouts, where the minimum radius curves should be 24 inches,if you plan on passenger trains. I was fortunate to be able to build a two stall garage, with a loft with an inside stairway to my 23'x23'around the room layout. I am using a Digtrax Super Chief, but you probably could get by with a Digitrax Zepher. I use a tethered 4 district set-up, with manual controls,(but go for wireless radio control,if you can afford it). The 4 districts are controlled by four operators,(that each,also, control 24 electrically controlled turnouts). I just purchased the Track Layer version of "TrainPlayer.com" It includes the 101 layouts, with the ability to draw your own layout, and then place locos of any era and cars on the layouts, to run on the computer screen as an "Armchair Model Railroader". It's terrific, (especially in chilly Michigan, with an unheated garage loft layout. Post a photo of your proposed layout, and the room. Bob Hahn

[Antag2002]

ok here is the first draft of the plan.

blue represents the walls or backdrops and the pink access to veiwing operatin ect. black ar the tracks and the dotted line is track underneathe the main layout.

I stated with a beautiful inustrial switching layout found on this site and went from there.

Its the Progressive rail Airlake industrial park layout.

i also found that if i put a 1 foot by 15 foot shelf on the otherside of the wall i could hide stagging tracks that dont need to be sceniced. i square on the graph paper equals 6 inches on the layout.
the benchwork will prolly start at about the 48 inch high range.

questions, comments and advice always welcome.



Antagonist

PS. the space with writting and no track plan was left like that for an engine terminal and servicing area

[Paulus Jas]

hi antag,

i hope this is not a serious attempt. Drawing freehand is fooling yourself in a major way; unless you have gained much more experience.

1) switch angles are unbelievable.

2)spacing is way to less at several places

3)the aisles are way to narrow

4)grades are way to steep and often impossible.

I could make this list much longer ......... .

Track Planning For Realistic Operation by the late John Armstrong would be a wise investment. Reading through Lance Mindheim's How To Design A Small Switching Layout would be an idea too.

Paul

 

 

[steinjr]

  Antag - I second the recommendation to get e.g. Lance Mindheim's "How to Design a Small Switching Layout", which will teach you about some rules of the thumb for designing small layouts and some tricks to make a simple track plan be interesting switching.

 And John Armstrong's "Track Planning for Realistic Operations" will teach you more about how real railroads work and some standard tricks of the model railroading trade - like yard ladders, curve radii, inclines etc. Considered by many the bible of track planning.

 Quick recap of some important factors in a H0 scale design:

 1) Distance track center to track center between two neighboring tracks : straights - 2", curves - 2 1/8" or 2 1/4" (at least if you are going to run longer rolling stock).

2) Turnouts - sharpest turnout there is is a #4, #6 is usually a better choice for most applications

 . Quick rule of thumb when drawing turnouts - to get 2" to the side (center distance between two parallel tracks), for a #4 turnout you need to move 8" (4x2") forward. For a #6 turnout, you need to move 12" (6x2") forward.

 Yard ladders eat space surprisingly fast. To branch out to four tracks using a straight unmodified ladder of #6 turnouts, you need about four feet of length for the ladder.

 3) Length of equipment - HO scale is 1:87.1.

 Take length of real railroad car or object - say e.g. 60 feet - convert to inches - 60 x 12 = 720 inches, divide by 87.1 to see model length: 8.2". If you need room for five such cars, you need a piece of track that is 8.2 x 5 = 41" long.

 What type of cars and what length of trains you are designing for is an important design consideration. Pick an era you want to model, pick cars, and calculate how long your cars and your trains will be.

4) Curves - to have cars go through them flawlessly with standard beginner track work they should have a curve radius of at least 3 times the length of your longest piece of rolling stock. If you run cars that are 8.2" long, your curves need a radius to the center of the track of 3 x 8.2" = 24.6".

 To have couplers automatically mate on curves, e.g. in the coupling area of curved yards, you need a radius of 5 x length of longest piece of rolling stock. For 8.2" cars, that is 41" radius curves.

Take a string or a stick, fasten pencil to end, fix center point (thumb tack?) and draw curve.

5) Inclines - with H0 scale, if one track is supposed to cross over another train (on a thin bridge), you can make do with 3" of vertical separation, track to track.

 Remember that some of that distance is lost to the thickness of whatever is supporting the track crossing over (a bridge or something) - you will not have a full 3" of clearance over the bottom track.

 How long do you need to climb 3"? Slopes take more space than you think.

 Quick rule of the thumb - "percent" means "per hundred". 3% means 3 (something) per 100 (something). E.g. 3" per 100". So at 3% incline, you need 100" of running length to climb three inches. 100" is the same as 8.3 feet.

 3% is a fairly steep slope. If you want to run long trains, stay below 2%. Then it takes 150" of length to climb 3".

 You can do things like splitting the difference - have one track go downhill 1.5" at 3% drop while the other go uphill 1.5" at 3% rise until the point where they cross each other. Then you only need half the distance from the point where the tracks split to the point they cross each other.

 But since there is no such thing as a free lunch - you now also have your one track 1.5" down from the level you were at, and you will need to do a climb again somewhere further along the track to get back to the same level (if you have a closed loop).

 If you want to have several levels of layout (not just a quick bridge), you need room to reach in on the level below. The supports for the upper level will also be thicker if it needs to support a full layout - and there will be things sticking down from the ceiling (wires, turnout machines etc).

 Recommended distance between levels is minimum 6" for a not scenicked staging level  - so you can get your hand in there when something needs work.  Takes lots of space to go down 6" at a 3% drop - about 16 feet of length, using the numbers from up above.

 There are lots of tricks to use space efficiently.

 But if you as a rule of the thumb remembers these, you will have better chance of drawing a realistic track plan by hand:

 - Train and car lengths : convert length of real life car to inches, divide by 87.1
 - Curve radius should be in the range 22-26"
 - Distance track center to track center for neighboring tracks: 2"
 - A foot of length per turnout
 - Length of incline for an over/under : minimum 8 feet

Smile,
Stein

 

[Antag2002]

Thanks guys i will look into those two books.

I also didnt plan on trying to build the track straight from this plan. another reason for not putting in the engine yard tracks as i have no idea which building models i will use for eg.

there are a few models of coaling tower and depending on the one i choose the tracks to it under it and around it will be much different then the next one.

 have faith all im not a fool and this is not my first layout just my first layout that will be built for operation for more than just myself. i previously had a 8x8x5 "U"  shaped N scale layout in my spare room in my old apartment.

as for the plan i drew i used templates made by woodland scenics that comes with there mod u rail system for the most part until i cam to the realization i will make a tonne of changes before i am completly satisfied to build the layout i will free hand the rest of the drawing

.
i was thinking 22" min radius
min No4 turnout No6 where the space allowes
max 2% grade
and the track underneath the layout is for a longer mainline run just about a twice around mainline.

again thanks guys.
And remmember i am always open to comment, suggestions and new ideas.

antagonist