New Layout Help

[Antag2002]

was looking over my space and my plan today and got to thinking. do i need double track mainline if there will be more then one operater

my first answer o myself was yes, but then i thought no because it would make switching intersting then i rethought and said yes cos when there is 4 operators it will get jammed and frustrating. what are your thoughts guys?

 

[Paulus Jas]

hi,

as usual there is no straight answer. It depends on what you want the operators to do.

in your first entry you talked about a switching pike. One of the nicest design is by Russel Schoof, the Free Haven Terminal (FHT). One operator brings in trains from staging to a classification yard and back and functions as a superintendent. The second is switching these trains into different locals (classification); while two other operators are switching the various parts of Russel's dock sides. The plan is described in 48 Top-notch Track Plans.

If operating is running trains over a mainline, we have a totally different form of operation. The NKP by Tony Koester is a great example of railroading in the dark; dispatching trains over a single track mainline, in a time no CTC or electronic devises were used.

A good plan should start by you, being very specific about what you want. You have ample space...., a version of the FHT would be a good choice, operationally the designs by Chris and me were about the same.

Paul

 

[Antag2002]

well operation to me is not just main line running but i do need a continues main for my wife she like watching the trains just go around the layout. In myminds eye i would like 4 seperate operating "spaces" so really not much movement on the part of the  operators. buy this i mean i dont want to be shunting cars into some industies and have My  buddy Lee trying to squeeze buy me in a 24" isle way.
considering we are both on the heavy side. I will add that book to my list of must reads

[Antag2002]

Hey everyone just a question befor ei begin layout design 2.0

how close to the edge would you pu a main line?

I know that it will need at least enought room for track bed and such but should there be an inch  or more or less?

thanks

[steinjr]

Antag2002

Hey everyone just a question befor ei begin layout design 2.0

how close to the edge would you pu a main line?

I know that it will need at least enought room for track bed and such but should there be an inch  or more or less?

thanks

 I would start by definining what you are trying to achieve. The question about where to put the mainline comes way, way, way down the list of design decisions.

 A good place for a mainline could e.g. be about 1/3rd of the way in from the fascia, allowing both foregound and background scenes around the mainline - with the mainline running _through_ the area, instead of in front of the area.

 Or 2/3rds of the way in from the fascia towards the backdrop, if you want more focus on the foreground - e.g. a yard pof some kind or some industries or whatever.

 It really depends on what you are trying to model.

 Concentrating on how far you can push the boundaries to cram in as much track as at all possible will not necessarily give you a layout that will be interesting to look at or to run trains in.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[Antag2002]

All i am trying to figure out is im trying to max layout space and at the same time max isle aspce so at some points in the main line like where there is no industrys to worrie about if i drop shelf size own to minimum space need to model track road bed maybe some space along the right of way maybe i could drop the self to 8 inches or so but in doing that on a curve i have decided a mi of 22" radius it may come close to the edge for a bit before i can gradually back away from the edge.

[Paulus Jas]

hi

you seem completely unable to listen or read;

You should begin by telling the kind of trains and operation you want. A passenger train with 90 feet long coaches or a modern freight with 90 feet long auto-racks need a 30" minimum radius; 36" or 40" would be better. If you want mainline running the emphasis will be on a long mainline. Or do you want yard switching (classification) or picking up and setting out cars from and to industries(way or local freight). Is your main a high-speed thorough fair or a laid back branch?

It is about taking coherent decisions, your 22" radius expels modern freight and passenger traffic; large engines as well.

The maximum layout space is the room you are using;  you can't enlarge it. The room-space you have must be divided in man en train space; Chris and Paul (me) gave you the same footprint; better is not possible. Unless you want to squeeze aisle-width a lot.

Wish you good luck,   did you ever thought about N-scale?

paul

 

 

 

 

 

[Antag2002]

"you seem completely unable to listen or read"

Seems i able to say this about you as in my first post i said 1941-1960 would be my era.

Second I also said i was mainly interested in frieght from this era, maybe i might run passenger service, but again not that important to me.

"It is about taking coherent decisions, your 22" radius expels modern freight and passenger traffic; large engines as well."

Again i never mentioned modern anything.

I had n scale i want HO and will min/max to get what i want.

I have a drawing in which i think will work well with some tweeking and i heeded your advice as well as Chriss about the books and have ordered them and will read them because i can read. and refine it. I asked a simple question about personal opinions regarding distance from the shelf edge.


If you wish to post something about that i will consider it.

Again for those you didnt read the first time.

 I have always been a fan of steam, and of early diesel so naturally I will be modeling somewhere between 1941 -1960.

I need a full loop as well as staging and classification yard.

industries to service with frieght cars.
maybe an engine yard no round house as i know they take up way more space then i can afford.

Suggestion intelligent comments and constructive critisism always welcome.

Antagonist

[tgindy]

You are already thinking of local transit in your layout space -- Consider adding passenger operations -- Lending a feeling of a much larger world beyond your layout.  People Transportation is also an industry -- Especially so in the 1940s-1950s -- Conducive to continuous-running plan design.

You do have space for a passenger/junction union terminal -- See the Walther's Cornerstone Union Station for inspiration.  Plus, passenger operations adds operations coordination with freight operations for timetables.

See the recent forum thread Passenger Trains Layout in Jan. MRR for different ideas.

Also think about the following Information Station PDF-downloads...

Modeling Realistic Passenger Train Operations -- Kalmbach PDF (various authors).

Freight Yards by John Armstrong -- Kalmbach PDF (note yard design emphasis).

Frank Ellison was a master at freight operations & freight layout design over 60 years ago, and his Delta Lines articles are timeless, while also fitting into the era you are modeling...

The Art of Model Railroading by Frank Ellison -- (complimentary PDF).

Realistic Freight Operations by Frank Ellison -- Kalmbach PDF.

P.S.:  2-track mainlines, if feasible, does allow for enhanced operations and in both directions for "train meets" -- Perhaps passenger on track #1 with freight on track #2 while switching on industrial sidings and/or yards with more than one operator.

[Antag2002]

thank you i will take a look.

[steinjr]

Antag2002

I asked a simple question about personal opinions regarding distance from the shelf edge.

 A simple answer is : "it really depends on what you are trying to achieve". There is no simple one size fits all answer.

 Are you really asking "how narrow can I make my layout where I have a single track main"?  For an N scale train, you can make the layout maybe 2" deep at the most extreme, with or without a lip along the front (or strategically placed trees or fences) to catch any wayward trains before they take the deep plunge to the floor.

 It would look prettier (IMO) to have at least 2-3" of scenery between the main and the track for a narrow shelf, and something similar behind the track and the backdrop - ie a shelf that is minimum 6-7" deep total.

 If you are asking "where should my main be in relationship to other tracks on a deeper shelf?", then that is a different question.

 If you want to have a yard along a main, I would e.g. suggest seeing if you can run the main behind the yard, instead of between the yard and the fascia. Allows you to work the yard without leaning across the main, and tends to mean that the yard ladder will slope in such a way that you see the clearance points of the yard tracks easily.

 If you want to run a main through an industry area, running it "in the middle" (or 1/3 or 2/3rds of the way in from the fascia) will allow industry spurs on both sides of the main, instead of the main running past in front of the scene.

 Again - there really is no single one-size-fits-all meaningful answer to "how close to the edge can I get".

 You can get all the way out to the edge if you so desire. Whether that works for your scenes and for your desired operations really depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

 And you have not really said a lot about that - you have mentioned wanting 4 switching areas for yourself and friends, and a closed loop mainline for your wife. You have mentioned wanting freight and maybe wanting passenger trains, as well as mentioning transition era steam and diesel.

 Transition era steam can be pretty much anything from an 0-8-0 switcher to some huge articulated beast. Passenger traffic can be anything from long passenger trains to a single rail car. A freight train can be anything from a switcher hauling a handful of cars to some local industries to 60-70 car priority through trains.

 You mention wanting a classification yard. Do you really mean a classification yard (a big and efficient sorting & routing machine where the emphasis is on efficient and fast sorting so you can handle a large number of inbound and outbound trains in a short time), or do you just mean that you want a small yard where you can sort a few cars for a local freight train at a leisurely tempo?

 It would be easier to picture what you want to achieve (and maybe provide some more or less constructive and more or less relevant suggestions), if you can describe your vision in more detail.

 We understand that the main goal is to have fun with friends.

 But have you e.g considered two man crews? One is the engineer who moves the train, the other the conductor, who plans how to do switching, throw turnouts and uncouple cars? Or having someone function as the dispatcher? Or having one crew work the yard and another take a local freight train out on the road?

 It is not a given that doing four similar switching areas and having one man run a separate local train in each switching area is the optimal way to go.

 It comes back to what your vision is - what do you want to be able to do on your layout? The more you can tell us, the more relevant advice it would be possible to give.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

 

[Paulus Jas]

hi

i carefully read your response,

1) if I read you right, you do not want passenger nor modern freight traffic. Remains the question of larger road or smaller wayfreight, branch or switch steamers. Important, while a 22" radius is limiting the kind of engines you can use. And so the kind of railroad you can design.

2) Stein covered the width of a shelf very well, but there must be something behind it.  My feeling is, i might be wrong of course, that you try to design a central peninsula with an end-blob. With a 22" radius and  27" aisles you have one foot left for the 2 shelves along the walls together. Just doable in HO but very tight; hence my question about N-scale. Though such a design enhances a longer main, and does not add to more switching.

3) I described how you could keep 4 operators busy on Russel Schoof's FHT. Its important to describe your wishes into railroad jobs and railroad activities. Transfer-cuts (NOT long heavy mainline trains, with big engines) coming out of staging ( big yard nearby). Those transfer cuts are divided in local jobs for various industrial districts(classification). Local switchers are picking up and setting out these cars at spots on industrial area's. Steamers and diesels have to be serviced too, so an engine terminal must be part of the show. Usually hostlers(apprentices) are doing the job in the engine terminals and the short run to the yard. Qualified engineers take over from here. All this is described very well in John Armstrong's book.

4) " i have a drawing which works out well" might be the issue; You ask questions about it without showing the background, again i might be wrong.

5) On Chris's layout the classification yard is becoming huge. Probably 4 industrial area's, so 4 tracks, two destinations  (east and west), 1 or 2 arrival tracks and a thoroughfare track that has to be kept empty for run-around-moves; in total these are 8 or 9 tracks. I envision one engineer bringing in and taking out the transfercuts from east and west; one is doing the classification(operating the yard), two engineers switching different industrial area's, while #5 is working the engine terminal. This is a railroad vision... Not said however : mainline running is limited to transfer cuts; rather light and short trains with light engines. hence a long mainline is not appropriate.  It will not be your vision, but describing such a vision has to be done before you start to design.

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

[Antag2002]

Hi all My wife has come to me and asked if it would help if i moved the washer and dryer down to the far corner of the basement giving me another 42 sqft of space so essentially a 10 x 22 room with a 6x7 "L" extension to the one side.

I have considered it and to me sounds like it would open up a whole new world of oppertunities to layout design i guess what im asking is again just your oppinions.

Would the time and effort it will take to re-plumb the washer and re-vent the dryer as well as move the wireing for both be worth a 42 sq ft gain in layout space?
 am i really going to gain that much more room and what could i add operational wise with the new gained space i will post a rough sketch of what the layout space would look like if i moved the washer and dryer

 

[Aralai]

IMHO while it may seem like a great idea to have the maximum space, I would be inclined to focus on how to set up a shelf layout and it seems like you have lots of space to do that now. If the washer and dryer are in the way and you are handy enough to re-plumb and wire properly and they are better in the moved position, then go for it, but be careful about falling into the 'more space is better' scenario. You may find it a bit overwhelming when you start to fill the space. My layout is a shelf layout - generally 2 feet deep in a U shape and while I sometimes look at my unused rec room and dream of filling it with the ultimate layout, I am both spending more than enough on my smaller layout plus will be more likely to be able to detail it nicely. Just my two cents.

 

[Antag2002]

my vision includes a around the room shelf with maybe one large penninsula. i believe i will stick to a 24 to 26 inch shelf. and i agree with you Aralai, more space just means more time and money but isnt tha what a hobby is lol. in all seriousness i wasnt really looking to make my layout bigger maybe just lay it out a little nicer for operations.

[Aralai]

Antag2002

my vision includes a around the room shelf with maybe one large penninsula. i believe i will stick to a 24 to 26 inch shelf. and i agree with you Aralai, more space just means more time and money but isnt tha what a hobby is lol. in all seriousness i wasnt really looking to make my layout bigger maybe just lay it out a little nicer for operations.

Then it might make sense to move the washer and dryer - you need to decide if it's worth the work.

[tgindy]

Antag2002

Would the time and effort it will take to re-plumb the washer and re-vent the dryer as well as move the wireing for both be worth a 42 sq ft gain in layout space?

This extra space should not be overlooked for dedicated staging and "yard-fiddling."

Example:  See the recent forum thread, Dave Vollmer's Layout Expansion, with two doors for his PRR Juniata Division -- Door #1 is for prototype operations and Door #2 is dedicated only to staging -- And all in N Scale to boot!  The layout expansion here is similar to your potential extra 42 sq.ft.

The real key to a meaningful layout (long-term) is "to take the long-view" -- Especially for the proper room preparation -- And the washer/dryer is part of room-prep along with lighting, etc.

You have three things going for you:

[1]  A spouse who is cooperative -- Should be complimented today!

[2]  Time to properly plan out the layout for your desired outcomes.

[3]  Layout space --  Plus you can alyways go N Scale "to fit in 40% more layout."

Again, by taking your good 'ole time, what is on paper will change as you pick up new ideas in this forum, in Model Railroader, and Kalmbach pdf-downloads + special issues + complimentary how-to articles.  You will know its right when you really feel good about the plan, that industrial building, how many cars fit on a siding, DCC wired so it works, etc.

If layout design reflects your vision -- Wasting money on something that is torn out & replaced two years later is minimized -- You and the spouse will be happier over the long-haul.

[Antag2002]

Lol this is true i complement her everyday, she is really the greatest. The new railroad was actually her idea to begin with as when she was younger her Dad had an extensive layout in there basement and she remembered when we had gotten togethersome 15 years ago I had a n scale layout in my apartment. We both decided with 6 kids ho would be a little more eye pleasing to the kids and when i have my railroadign buddys over ops will look a little more ineresting to observers.

Now as for n scale yes i could get 40% more layout but with almost 120% more cost in locos and rolling stock.

i will read some more and bring to you guys another track plan for you expert critics, or if someone has another great idea like Paul and Chris have had send it along i will take a peek.

still working on must haves and would likes so when they are a lil more clear i will post them up

[Antag2002]

Ok restart my whole layout thinking. First I want to thank everyone so far for some great ideas. Now I have a vision in my head and want to project it to you guys for some feed back. I made a new drawing of my space complete with dimensions; I have also got permission from the boss about going through a wall into our workshop for an 18 inch shelf in which I will put the staging yard and a desk under it for a dispatcher’s station.
I have also decided I will move the washer and dryer.

I would like to model early fall 1950, Im going to model “somewhere in Ontario”
when I say somewhere I mean I want to take some part of the province and not others for scenic purposes.
The prototype I will be basing this loosely around would be CN/CP as they both run through my neck of the woods.

MUST HAVES
- Ho scale
- Continuous loop
- staging yard
- classification yard
- abilities for 4-5 operators (1 brings in trains from the staging yard to the classification yard, 1 sorting cars in the classification yard, and 2 running the trains to and from industries.
- A town for my Wife to build building and houses for as well as the A&W stand she found on walthers.com

Things I would like but can live without

2 line main.
Passenger service.
engine yard

As for the passenger service I think if I had the line appear and disappear say under the layout and come back up here and the would add depth to the scene.

Paul had mentioned wider radius curves then 22 inch he suggested 30 inches and larger for modern freight and passenger service. Even though I am not doing modern I come to the conclusion that if I wanted to buy and run my Favorite loco a

4-8-4 Northern I would need the bigger radius.

Some scenery I would like to include would be a lake and some rivers and creeks as well a long curve covered on both sides by trees with enough room for the right of way. I have always had this picture of a steamer puffing through a hillside with trees on both sides of the track opening up to a bridge with a shallow river running under it.

I have also been a big fan of the climax and shay type steamers if I could somehow include them that would be great maybe with an industry I could get one or both in there.

I am still looking and research industy in Southern Ontario during 1950so when I have more info on that I will narrow down the types I will included on my layout.

Well that’s it for now, if you have anymore questions, or have any comments again feel free to share or ask.

Antagonist

[Paulus Jas]

hi,

1)  What do you mean by "2 line main"? ; a double tracked mainline i guess. Do you want to run a lot of trains on auto-pilot over your wife's loop.

2)  Must this main line be as long as possible?

3)  More important however: no doors are indicated; how to reach the shelf in the other room? Is the open edge the only entry to your layout room.

4)  Can the shelf in the workshop be extended to the right wall?

A design issue is the width of the main room. Ten feet is not wide enough for a central-peninsula with an end blob. With two 30" wide aisles and two 18" wide shelves along the walls the remaining width for the peninsula is 24"; a nice width for an industrial area.

Paul

 

 

[Antag2002]

yes double track main the more i get into this the more imput she is putting in. what she said would be nice is for two trains to pass going in opposite directions would be appealing to her.

" Must this main line be as long as possible?"
- dont see why it cant be all the way did you have something in mind?

 More important however: no doors are indicated; how to reach the shelf in the other room? Is the open edge the only entry to your layout room
- lol didnt relize i made that kind of mistake lol i redid the drwaing with doors.

no the shelf cannot it has to stop for the door to open which now you can see as i drew it in now lol.

A 24 inch run to a industri would work maybe even get my climax in there?hmmm........

keep the ideas and questions comming lol

 

[Paulus Jas]

hi

some idea's here; the main line should be double tracked.  It 's about the orientation of several items you mentioned.

 

i did not try it out, a min radius between 27" and 30" seems possible.

paul

[Antag2002]

resembles what i have as well, with a few differnces now i was thinkning i know this could be dangerous. lol. I was thinking making the bench work high enough to walk upright under and building a platform with steps upinto it

I need now to include a beach scene as my sister has bought me some building and such that would look nice as a beach scene.

[Antag2002]

any thoughts on that?

 

[steinjr]

Antag2002

any thoughts on that?

 6 feet to underside of layout means 6 1/2 feet to top of layout, means platform has to be about 2 feet high to give you a layout surface about 4 1/2 feet high relative to where you are standing while running trains.

 1) If you stand on a 2 foot high platform , how close to the ceiling of the room is your head?

 2) If you work on the underside of the layout, you are in a corridor that is about 6 feet high, and 24-30" wide (the width of your benchwork). Now picture having forgotten a tool, needing to get out to get that tool.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[Antag2002]

boooooo..... seen!

[Aralai]

While on the surface it sounds like a good idea to be able to walk under the layout, and build a kind of boardwalk to view, it would be a lot of extra work and expense and I agree that it might work in an industrial situation with 12 foot ceilings or higher - not so much in a basement.

While access to under the layout is good to have, it is the LAYOUT that should be the focal point and designed for ease of viewing, operating and working on.

A layout at say 48" can still have good access underneath. I use a steno chair with casters to sit on and move under my layout when I need to do wiring etc.

[Antag2002]

just a question does anyone know how to change an anyrail file to a different file so i can post it?

[richhotrain]

Antag2002

just a question does anyone know how to change an anyrail file to a different file so i can post it?

Dunno, but BDP did it on the thread titled Help Designing a Yard.  You might ask him.

Rich

[steinjr]

Antag2002

just a question does anyone know how to change an anyrail file to a different file so i can post it?

 DId you try pressing F1 (help in most windows based programs) ?

 Or to go on the file menu and look for e.g. "export as" ?

 Or go to http://www.google.com and write e.g : export picture from anyrail  ?

 Here is a page from the user manual:  http://www.anyrail.com/help_en/index.html?filetab.htm

Smile,
Stein