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New Layout Help

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Posted by Antag2002 on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 10:41 PM

thank you i will take a look.

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Posted by tgindy on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 4:57 PM

You are already thinking of local transit in your layout space -- Consider adding passenger operations -- Lending a feeling of a much larger world beyond your layout.  People Transportation is also an industry -- Especially so in the 1940s-1950s -- Conducive to continuous-running plan design.

You do have space for a passenger/junction union terminal -- See the Walther's Cornerstone Union Station for inspiration.  Plus, passenger operations adds operations coordination with freight operations for timetables.

See the recent forum thread Passenger Trains Layout in Jan. MRR for different ideas.

Also think about the following Information Station PDF-downloads...

Modeling Realistic Passenger Train Operations -- Kalmbach PDF (various authors).

Freight Yards by John Armstrong -- Kalmbach PDF (note yard design emphasis).

Frank Ellison was a master at freight operations & freight layout design over 60 years ago, and his Delta Lines articles are timeless, while also fitting into the era you are modeling...

The Art of Model Railroading by Frank Ellison -- (complimentary PDF).

Realistic Freight Operations by Frank Ellison -- Kalmbach PDF.

P.S.:  2-track mainlines, if feasible, does allow for enhanced operations and in both directions for "train meets" -- Perhaps passenger on track #1 with freight on track #2 while switching on industrial sidings and/or yards with more than one operator.

Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956

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Posted by Antag2002 on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 4:00 PM

"you seem completely unable to listen or read"

Seems i able to say this about you as in my first post i said 1941-1960 would be my era.

Second I also said i was mainly interested in frieght from this era, maybe i might run passenger service, but again not that important to me.

"It is about taking coherent decisions, your 22" radius expels modern freight and passenger traffic; large engines as well."

Again i never mentioned modern anything.

I had n scale i want HO and will min/max to get what i want.

I have a drawing in which i think will work well with some tweeking and i heeded your advice as well as Chriss about the books and have ordered them and will read them because i can read. and refine it. I asked a simple question about personal opinions regarding distance from the shelf edge.


If you wish to post something about that i will consider it.

Again for those you didnt read the first time.

 I have always been a fan of steam, and of early diesel so naturally I will be modeling somewhere between 1941 -1960.

I need a full loop as well as staging and classification yard.

industries to service with frieght cars.
maybe an engine yard no round house as i know they take up way more space then i can afford.

Suggestion intelligent comments and constructive critisism always welcome.

Antagonist

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Posted by Paulus Jas on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 3:36 PM

hi

you seem completely unable to listen or read;

You should begin by telling the kind of trains and operation you want. A passenger train with 90 feet long coaches or a modern freight with 90 feet long auto-racks need a 30" minimum radius; 36" or 40" would be better. If you want mainline running the emphasis will be on a long mainline. Or do you want yard switching (classification) or picking up and setting out cars from and to industries(way or local freight). Is your main a high-speed thorough fair or a laid back branch?

It is about taking coherent decisions, your 22" radius expels modern freight and passenger traffic; large engines as well.

The maximum layout space is the room you are using;  you can't enlarge it. The room-space you have must be divided in man en train space; Chris and Paul (me) gave you the same footprint; better is not possible. Unless you want to squeeze aisle-width a lot.

Wish you good luck,   did you ever thought about N-scale?

paul

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by Antag2002 on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 10:43 AM

All i am trying to figure out is im trying to max layout space and at the same time max isle aspce so at some points in the main line like where there is no industrys to worrie about if i drop shelf size own to minimum space need to model track road bed maybe some space along the right of way maybe i could drop the self to 8 inches or so but in doing that on a curve i have decided a mi of 22" radius it may come close to the edge for a bit before i can gradually back away from the edge.

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Posted by steinjr on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 10:34 AM

Antag2002

Hey everyone just a question befor ei begin layout design 2.0

how close to the edge would you pu a main line?

I know that it will need at least enought room for track bed and such but should there be an inch  or more or less?

thanks

 I would start by definining what you are trying to achieve. The question about where to put the mainline comes way, way, way down the list of design decisions.

 A good place for a mainline could e.g. be about 1/3rd of the way in from the fascia, allowing both foregound and background scenes around the mainline - with the mainline running _through_ the area, instead of in front of the area.

 Or 2/3rds of the way in from the fascia towards the backdrop, if you want more focus on the foreground - e.g. a yard pof some kind or some industries or whatever.

 It really depends on what you are trying to model.

 Concentrating on how far you can push the boundaries to cram in as much track as at all possible will not necessarily give you a layout that will be interesting to look at or to run trains in.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

 

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Posted by Antag2002 on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 10:25 AM

Hey everyone just a question befor ei begin layout design 2.0

how close to the edge would you pu a main line?

I know that it will need at least enought room for track bed and such but should there be an inch  or more or less?

thanks

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Posted by Antag2002 on Thursday, December 16, 2010 10:18 AM

well operation to me is not just main line running but i do need a continues main for my wife she like watching the trains just go around the layout. In myminds eye i would like 4 seperate operating "spaces" so really not much movement on the part of the  operators. buy this i mean i dont want to be shunting cars into some industies and have My  buddy Lee trying to squeeze buy me in a 24" isle way.
considering we are both on the heavy side. I will add that book to my list of must reads

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Posted by Paulus Jas on Thursday, December 16, 2010 10:07 AM

hi,

as usual there is no straight answer. It depends on what you want the operators to do.

in your first entry you talked about a switching pike. One of the nicest design is by Russel Schoof, the Free Haven Terminal (FHT). One operator brings in trains from staging to a classification yard and back and functions as a superintendent. The second is switching these trains into different locals (classification); while two other operators are switching the various parts of Russel's dock sides. The plan is described in 48 Top-notch Track Plans.

If operating is running trains over a mainline, we have a totally different form of operation. The NKP by Tony Koester is a great example of railroading in the dark; dispatching trains over a single track mainline, in a time no CTC or electronic devises were used.

A good plan should start by you, being very specific about what you want. You have ample space...., a version of the FHT would be a good choice, operationally the designs by Chris and me were about the same.

Paul

 

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Posted by Antag2002 on Thursday, December 16, 2010 9:39 AM

was looking over my space and my plan today and got to thinking. do i need double track mainline if there will be more then one operater

my first answer o myself was yes, but then i thought no because it would make switching intersting then i rethought and said yes cos when there is 4 operators it will get jammed and frustrating. what are your thoughts guys?

 

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Posted by Antag2002 on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 7:36 AM

Thanks guys i will look into those two books.

I also didnt plan on trying to build the track straight from this plan. another reason for not putting in the engine yard tracks as i have no idea which building models i will use for eg.

there are a few models of coaling tower and depending on the one i choose the tracks to it under it and around it will be much different then the next one.

 have faith all im not a fool and this is not my first layout just my first layout that will be built for operation for more than just myself. i previously had a 8x8x5 "U"  shaped N scale layout in my spare room in my old apartment.

as for the plan i drew i used templates made by woodland scenics that comes with there mod u rail system for the most part until i cam to the realization i will make a tonne of changes before i am completly satisfied to build the layout i will free hand the rest of the drawing

.
i was thinking 22" min radius
min No4 turnout No6 where the space allowes
max 2% grade
and the track underneath the layout is for a longer mainline run just about a twice around mainline.

again thanks guys.
And remmember i am always open to comment, suggestions and new ideas.

antagonist

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Posted by steinjr on Monday, December 13, 2010 11:59 PM

  Antag - I second the recommendation to get e.g. Lance Mindheim's "How to Design a Small Switching Layout", which will teach you about some rules of the thumb for designing small layouts and some tricks to make a simple track plan be interesting switching.

 And John Armstrong's "Track Planning for Realistic Operations" will teach you more about how real railroads work and some standard tricks of the model railroading trade - like yard ladders, curve radii, inclines etc. Considered by many the bible of track planning.

 Quick recap of some important factors in a H0 scale design:

 1) Distance track center to track center between two neighboring tracks : straights - 2", curves - 2 1/8" or 2 1/4" (at least if you are going to run longer rolling stock).

2) Turnouts - sharpest turnout there is is a #4, #6 is usually a better choice for most applications

 . Quick rule of thumb when drawing turnouts - to get 2" to the side (center distance between two parallel tracks), for a #4 turnout you need to move 8" (4x2") forward. For a #6 turnout, you need to move 12" (6x2") forward.

 Yard ladders eat space surprisingly fast. To branch out to four tracks using a straight unmodified ladder of #6 turnouts, you need about four feet of length for the ladder.

 3) Length of equipment - HO scale is 1:87.1.

 Take length of real railroad car or object - say e.g. 60 feet - convert to inches - 60 x 12 = 720 inches, divide by 87.1 to see model length: 8.2". If you need room for five such cars, you need a piece of track that is 8.2 x 5 = 41" long.

 What type of cars and what length of trains you are designing for is an important design consideration. Pick an era you want to model, pick cars, and calculate how long your cars and your trains will be.

4) Curves - to have cars go through them flawlessly with standard beginner track work they should have a curve radius of at least 3 times the length of your longest piece of rolling stock. If you run cars that are 8.2" long, your curves need a radius to the center of the track of 3 x 8.2" = 24.6".

 To have couplers automatically mate on curves, e.g. in the coupling area of curved yards, you need a radius of 5 x length of longest piece of rolling stock. For 8.2" cars, that is 41" radius curves.

Take a string or a stick, fasten pencil to end, fix center point (thumb tack?) and draw curve.

5) Inclines - with H0 scale, if one track is supposed to cross over another train (on a thin bridge), you can make do with 3" of vertical separation, track to track.

 Remember that some of that distance is lost to the thickness of whatever is supporting the track crossing over (a bridge or something) - you will not have a full 3" of clearance over the bottom track.

 How long do you need to climb 3"? Slopes take more space than you think.

 Quick rule of the thumb - "percent" means "per hundred". 3% means 3 (something) per 100 (something). E.g. 3" per 100". So at 3% incline, you need 100" of running length to climb three inches. 100" is the same as 8.3 feet.

 3% is a fairly steep slope. If you want to run long trains, stay below 2%. Then it takes 150" of length to climb 3".

 You can do things like splitting the difference - have one track go downhill 1.5" at 3% drop while the other go uphill 1.5" at 3% rise until the point where they cross each other. Then you only need half the distance from the point where the tracks split to the point they cross each other.

 But since there is no such thing as a free lunch - you now also have your one track 1.5" down from the level you were at, and you will need to do a climb again somewhere further along the track to get back to the same level (if you have a closed loop).

 If you want to have several levels of layout (not just a quick bridge), you need room to reach in on the level below. The supports for the upper level will also be thicker if it needs to support a full layout - and there will be things sticking down from the ceiling (wires, turnout machines etc).

 Recommended distance between levels is minimum 6" for a not scenicked staging level  - so you can get your hand in there when something needs work.  Takes lots of space to go down 6" at a 3% drop - about 16 feet of length, using the numbers from up above.

 There are lots of tricks to use space efficiently.

 But if you as a rule of the thumb remembers these, you will have better chance of drawing a realistic track plan by hand:

 - Train and car lengths : convert length of real life car to inches, divide by 87.1
 - Curve radius should be in the range 22-26"
 - Distance track center to track center for neighboring tracks: 2"
 - A foot of length per turnout
 - Length of incline for an over/under : minimum 8 feet

Smile,
Stein

 

 

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Posted by Paulus Jas on Monday, December 13, 2010 10:58 PM

hi antag,

i hope this is not a serious attempt. Drawing freehand is fooling yourself in a major way; unless you have gained much more experience.

1) switch angles are unbelievable.

2)spacing is way to less at several places

3)the aisles are way to narrow

4)grades are way to steep and often impossible.

I could make this list much longer ......... .

Track Planning For Realistic Operation by the late John Armstrong would be a wise investment. Reading through Lance Mindheim's How To Design A Small Switching Layout would be an idea too.

Paul

 

 

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Posted by Antag2002 on Monday, December 13, 2010 10:18 PM

ok here is the first draft of the plan.

blue represents the walls or backdrops and the pink access to veiwing operatin ect. black ar the tracks and the dotted line is track underneathe the main layout.

I stated with a beautiful inustrial switching layout found on this site and went from there.

Its the Progressive rail Airlake industrial park layout.

i also found that if i put a 1 foot by 15 foot shelf on the otherside of the wall i could hide stagging tracks that dont need to be sceniced. i square on the graph paper equals 6 inches on the layout.
the benchwork will prolly start at about the 48 inch high range.

questions, comments and advice always welcome.



Antagonist

PS. the space with writting and no track plan was left like that for an engine terminal and servicing area

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Posted by HHPATH56 on Friday, December 10, 2010 10:38 AM
Welcome to the Forum. Is the room 10'x15'(or what are the dimensions)? Around the room layouts with wide peninsulas, are preferable to a 4'x8'set in the middle of the room,(especially for HO layouts, where the minimum radius curves should be 24 inches,if you plan on passenger trains. I was fortunate to be able to build a two stall garage, with a loft with an inside stairway to my 23'x23'around the room layout. I am using a Digtrax Super Chief, but you probably could get by with a Digitrax Zepher. I use a tethered 4 district set-up, with manual controls,(but go for wireless radio control,if you can afford it). The 4 districts are controlled by four operators,(that each,also, control 24 electrically controlled turnouts). I just purchased the Track Layer version of "TrainPlayer.com" It includes the 101 layouts, with the ability to draw your own layout, and then place locos of any era and cars on the layouts, to run on the computer screen as an "Armchair Model Railroader". It's terrific, (especially in chilly Michigan, with an unheated garage loft layout. Post a photo of your proposed layout, and the room. Bob Hahn
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Posted by Antag2002 on Thursday, December 9, 2010 3:11 PM

ok i am in the middle of drawing out a track plan the old fashioned way (paper and pencil) As soon as i have a first draft i will scan and post it .

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Posted by Antag2002 on Wednesday, December 8, 2010 10:21 AM

when you say cassette do you mean http://www.bandrmodelrailways.co.uk/Accessories.html something like this? that would work well in the place of a round house.. I do like round houses and turntables i also like the idea of the whole engine yard but from what i see it takes a tonne of space.

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Posted by Paulus Jas on Wednesday, December 8, 2010 4:28 AM

hi

about the same idea;  a cassette could be added to the track at the very left; facing your wife's space.

paul

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Posted by Antag2002 on Tuesday, December 7, 2010 1:53 PM

makes sense. i am sure 24 inches will do as it wil max layout an max ailes size as well

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Posted by tommy2tap on Tuesday, December 7, 2010 1:41 PM

on a shelf you can effectively model a large industry in a space as narrow as 8 inches a reach of 36 to the back of the layout is asking for your scenery modeling to get wrecked by people reaching in to uncouple cars and rerail the occasional errant piece of equipment. it also causes the model building budget to expand from having to use more structures and scenery materials to complete the scene

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Posted by stilson4283 on Monday, December 6, 2010 6:44 PM

It would be multi-level but it would only have 6" of clearance to allow some room to reach in but not enough clearance where that would be something scenic.

 

Also keep in mind you can have those industries at the towns as well, for this drawing I didn't take the time to draw in industries or sidings.

Chris 

Check out my railroad at: Buffalo and Southwestern

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YouTube:StellarMRR YouTube account

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Posted by Antag2002 on Monday, December 6, 2010 6:35 PM

I like the idea but when you say branch to industies over staging yard are you suggesting multi level? Im not adverse to the idea of multi levels. and i am hoping to maybe have some team tracks for farmers to load rail cars with produse and such i like that idea as well

 

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Posted by Antag2002 on Monday, December 6, 2010 6:33 PM

on your plan there you have branch to industries over staging are you suggesting multi level?

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Posted by stilson4283 on Monday, December 6, 2010 5:57 PM

Here is something to think about:

 

It has 30" radius curves, staging, two industrial branches (one above the staging yards not shown), continuous loop running, and two towns.  The isles are 30" except near town 2 and in the industrial branch.  Plus you can make it easier to get around with making track over the walkway a swing gate.

 

Something to think about.

V/R


Chris

Warner Robins, GA

Check out my railroad at: Buffalo and Southwestern

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Posted by Antag2002 on Sunday, December 5, 2010 10:18 PM

ok here it is this is what im thinking at this point as far as bench work goes. Questions comments CONTRUCTIVE critism please.

the green is the possible bench work. of course the yard man can stand in the off limits are to opperate the others will have to duck under and operate from inside[View:http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/themes/trc/utility/Photobucket:550:0]

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Posted by Antag2002 on Sunday, December 5, 2010 9:13 AM
  • Rake (train), a physical railway train made up of coaches, or a coupled group of coaches

    im not saying you are wrong but why is 36 inches too deep?

    im thinking 36 would give me plenty of room for large indudtries on the far side of the tracks a s well as mills  cliffs and the like.
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    Posted by alco_fan on Saturday, December 4, 2010 11:48 AM

    Antag2002

     putt together rakes?

    You are building a golf course?

    36 inches is too deep. 30 inches should be the max

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    Posted by Antag2002 on Saturday, December 4, 2010 10:08 AM

    ok now looking for pros and cons of this idea from people who have been there and people who have a mond for this sort of stuff.

    in the 4x8 area directly across from the off limits area seems like a good place for a engine/classification yard or should i split these up? 

    Im also thinking maybe 36 inch shelves with lots of scenery behind the lines to add depth so arms reach shouldnt be a problem while operating and a duck under to get inside the layout.

    I plan on running passenger service as well as mixed freight to service industry,

    tethered controls good enough or are wireless worth the money?

    i have a digitrax DSC 50 from my old layout will this be good enough for multi ho loco control or should i use this system for Track compoents such as signaling and the like.

    while running this layout im looking at around 3 to 4 operators and on occasion a 5th to act as dispatcher, when the 5th i not there do you guys think that it would be too much for the yard man to dispatch as well as putt together rakes?

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    Posted by A. Wallace on Friday, December 3, 2010 11:20 PM

    When designing the benchwork, remember to leave space to work underneath after the scenery is in place. Leave plenty of space around switch machines to wire, re-wire, replace them, and adjust them. You may be agile now, but passing years will inevitably make maintenance more difficult. After 65 years in the hobby, I know how it goes.

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    Posted by Antag2002 on Friday, December 3, 2010 5:45 PM

    a freind of mine just stopped in, he will be lending me countless hours of help with this layout as he will be one of the guys comin to  operate it during construction(a railroad is never done silly).
    he purchased a an atlas layout book "Seven Steps-by-step HO LAYOUTS" the central midland jumped at me i love the idea of the train running under the table for  a bit of the the main line run.and the open grid benchwork looks easy to do.

    the shelf idea is great as well with the penisula ide i could but intusties off the main line alowwing the main line to drop from say 2 or 4 running paralel down to one or two and still have main line traffic running without interuption.

    any other idea guys(girls if your out there)
    im getting a clearer picture in mind as the minutes go by.

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