Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

[kaycee]

You have a fine collection indeed an a nice train room.

I have been collecting 'Chicago Era' Flyer the last few years. They are really good looking pre-war trains.

To stretch my budget, I also purchase the 'basket-cases' that are normally scrapped and bring them back to their former glory. Very satisfying to watch them run after who-knows-how-long.

Hope you enjoy some of my rescues.

The first is a vintage 1936, #1681 Hudson with 2 wheel trailing truck that appears to be a 4 wheel truck and a 4 rail whistle tender. It  is nearing completion. Even the 4 rail track was fixed up. I have enough track for a elongated double loop....this will be the centerpiece of my layout.

The second loco is a vintage 1934, #3323 which was just a boiler casting stripped of trim and a motor with missing parts and trucks. The tender was a wheel-less rust bucket. It is now complete and looks an works great...took quite a few months to bring it back.

 

 

[mersenne6]

 

  The 4-8-4 Union Pacific Northern

    This was the second locomotive introduced in 1939 . With its 12 wheel tender the locomotive-tender combination measured 21.5 inches. The engine was offered ready to run and in kit form and, like the Hudson, was offered with either a die-cast freight or passenger consist.

 

   1939

 

  Both ready-to-run and kit were numbered 806 with the kit form having the numbers supplied as decals. The engine presumably had enough weight to permit pulling die-cast passenger cars because, unlike the Hudson it was not offered with rubber traction tires. Both kit and assembled had a spur gear motor with brushes on the side. The ornamental generator was a separate part as were the number boards and the bell on the top of the removable boiler front. The tender is rubber stamped "Union Pacific" and the method of control is RDC.  The engine-tender combination was identified as 568 with the kit version identified as K-568.

 

 1940

 

  Five versions offered:

 

  1. Same as 1939 - spur gear but without RDC. Engine-tender combination identified as #572 but same number, 806, rubber stamped below engine cab windows.

 

  2. Worm gear motor, conventional control, and the number 571 rubber stamped under cab window.

 

  3. Same as 2 except had RDC and was identified in the catalog as engine-tender combination 534.

 

  4. Same as #3 but rubber stamped 533 under cab window.

 

  5. Kit version - same as #4 and #4 but with #806 decals for mounting under cab window. Kit identified as K-534.

 

  1941-1942

 

  There were 4 versions offered during this time. Two versions had DRC and two did not, two had the tender with the chugger mechanism and two did not.  Three were assembled and one was a kit. All of the these engines had worm gear drives. The kit version had the same #806 decals as in earlier years.

 

  1. Engine pulling sheet metal cars were rubber stamped #572 under cab window.

 

  2. Engines pulling die-cast were rubber stamped #534 and had this numbe on the number boards.

 

  3. As with the Hudson, the chugger tenders were identified with a "C" the catalog number for the tender being 567.

 

 

3/16 for 1940

 

  The year 1940 saw a major expansion in the 3/16" line. Gilbert introduced 4 new engines to the lineup and continued to offer the engines and cars first introduced in 1939.

 

 

 

 

 

Catalog Cover 1940

 

 

  Pennsylvania and B&O 4-6-2 Pacific

 

   The Pacific wheel arrangement in 3/16" was first offered in 1940 configured either as a Pennsylvania K-5 or a B&O Royal Blue art deco Torpedo.

 

  1940

 

   Pennsylvania K-5

 

 

    The kit version was identified as K-559.  The kit engine was provided with decals #559 and the kit tender with decals "Pennsylvania". Both kit and assembled had worm gear drives. The assembled version was rubber stamped "559" under the cab window and the tender was rubber stamped "Pennsylvania".  The tender trucks are identical to the sheet metal freight car trucks.  There were two sets with sheet metal cars (one freight and one passenger) offered with the K-5 in the 1940 catalog. The engine has sequence remote control with a control lever on the top of the boiler. The K-5 for these sets were rubber stamped "561". In addition, K-5's were sold separately and they have been found with either "561" or "556" rubber stamped below the windows.

 

  1941-1942

 

  The kit version was offered again and identified as K-559.  The assembled K-5 is rubber stamped 561 in the sheet metal sets. The tender, which was identified with the catalog number 558 was offered plain or with a chugger.  The ID for the chugger tender is 558C.  The K-5 with the die-cast cars was rubber stamped 559.  The only difference between the 561 and the 559 is that the 559 has rubber traction tires and it has DRC so there is no reversing lever on the top of the boiler.

 

 

#559 from 1941-42 with cugger tender

 

  The Chugger Tender

 

   Chugger tenders or "Choo-Choo" tenders as they were listed in the catalog, have a chugger mechanism inside the tender body.  The sheet metal bottom of the tender has two long slots to permit the sound to escape and an on-off lever for the mechanism itself.

 

 

Underside of K-5 Chugger Tender #558C

 

1945

 

  The K-5 reappeared in two sets #4109 - freight, and #4110 - passenger.

 

  Set #4109 - #561 K-5, #558 tender, #478 boxcar (replaced #488 prewar), #480 tank, #476 gondola, #484 caboose - unlighted.

 

  Set #4110 - #561 K-5, #558 tender, #494R Baggage - (black AFL decals and silver numbers or rubbers stamped AFL in silver), #494R Coach (black AFL decals and silver numbers), #494R Coach (black AFL decals and silver numbers) - note "R" is identifier for color red. Coaches were unlighted. Sets generally had black track although they have been found with a mix of black and tinplated track.

 

 

B&O Torpedo

 

  1940 -1942

 

  Locomotive is die-cast, tender is stamped sheet metal. Engine was sold in a sheet metal freight and a sheet metal passenger set.  In all years of production the engine was numbered 556 below the cab and was marked "The Royal Blue" along the running boards.  The tender was marked "American Flyer Lines" and the marking can be either decals or rubber stamping.  The chassis is the same as the K-5 but the valve gear and rods are different. In 1941-42 the tender, as with the other engines in the catalog, was offered either with or without the chugger mechanism.  The tender number was 555.

 

 

 

 

 

B&O Royal Blue

 

Pennsylvania, B&O, and Reading 4-4-2 Atlantic

 

  Pennsylvania #545

 

   Sort of a poor man's Pennsy E6.  Made in 1940 only. Used the #559 K-5 shell. Engine provided with carry over sheet metal tender from the old American Flyer line. Engine rubber stamped #545 under the cab window, tender rubber stamped "American Flyer Lines". All rubber stamping in silver.

 

 

 

 

#545 from 1940

 

 

B&O #553

 

  Made in 1940 only. Same boiler shell as the B&O Royal Blue. Painted in "glistening gun metalescent enamel" - essentially gunmetal gray.  Uses the same chassis as #545. Engine and tender markings are either rubber stamped or decal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Set #4004 With #553 engine

 

 

Reading #565

 

  Unlike the other two Atlantics this engine is an accurate copy of the real Reading Atlantic.  Tender is sheet metal and comes with or without the chugger mechanism. Engine has worm gear drive and remote control.  Tender was either rubber stamped or decaled "American Flyer Lines".  Unlike the other 3/16" engines the third rail current collectors are under the tender and the electricity reaches the engine motor through a plug in jack between engine and tender.

 

 

#565

 

  1945

 

  Connection between tender and locomotive became a clip.  Engine offered in a single set.

 

   Set #4103 - contents - #565 Atlantic, #564 Tender (AFL decaled), #482 Log car (red or black), #478 Boxcar, #484 Caboose.

 

  1946

 

   Some tenders no longer have journal boxes on the trucks.  Tender may be attached to locomotive with screws.

 

  Set #4103 - contents - #565 Atlantic and Tender - tender marked "Reading". Locomotive and tender shipped in a single box with markings "565A Atl. Loco and Tender", #478 Boxcar, #476 Gondola, #484 Caboose.

 

  Note on Postwar Sets

 

  As noted above three sets were offered in 1945 and one in 1946. The only know reference to these sets is in Newsweek, November 19, 1945 pp.36.

 

  In a letter to the service departments dated February 8, 1947 Service Manager J.M. Denison wrote:

 

  "We have discontinued the manufacture of O gauge trains. The switches and crossovers will be available in the near future and we now have track in stock. It is possible that we will have in about six months some assortment of used or rebuild O gauge cars and other accessories. If you should decide to convert to the new two rail 3/16" scale trains (note he did not say S scale), take the matter up with us in April and by that time we will allow you a substantial credit to apply against a new one."

 

 

3/16 for 1941-42

 

   The odd Atlantics were dropped and the NKP switcher was introduced.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Catalog Cover 1942

 

 Nickel Plate 0-8-0 Switcher

 

 1941-42

 

 

    Offered in two sets with sheet metal cars. Catalog indicated the tender came either with or without a "Ding-Dong" bell ringing tender and was rubber stamped "Nickel Plate Road".  The engine was also offered in a set with die-cast cars and with DRC control. While offered in two versions, the tender was only available without the bell ringer.  As far as is known there is only a single bell ringing prototype in existence - the model makers sample.  According to one published source these engines were the result of a single production run.  All known examples suffer from die-cast fatigue and according to the Greenberg guide none of the survivors can operate.  The only example I've ever seen of this engine was a heavily shopped version. A collector with extreme machinist skills and tools took an intact boiler shell, machined a new chasses, cast new wheels, and used the connecting rods, axles, and motor from the original, along with an intact tender and managed to make a functioning 0-8-0.  Essentially he "jacked up the bell and built a new engine underneath it".

 

 

Catalog cut of NKP switcher

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

[DocBen]

 Excellent info!!!  I love it.  Reference my light issue on the 1938 O-gauge Flyer, they were both just loose.  They shine very bright now all the time.  The caboose light is actually TOO bright.  I wonder if the paint faded on the bulb after 73 years.

 

Anyone know how to get ahold of Eric Trickel?  I've sent him several emails over the past few months, and haven't gotten any response.  Is there an online catalog I can look at?  I really want to purchase new trucks for the Flyer.

 

Thanks!!

[mersenne6]

  3/16 Flyer

   A.C. Gilbert purchased American Flyer in 1938.  In 1939 he introduced "Tru-Model" American Flyer O gauge trains to the lineup. What wasn't mentioned anywhere in the catalog was the fact that these new models were scaled 3/16" to the foot. It is worth noting that Gilbert called these trains "Tru-Model" and not S gauge.  In point of fact, CD Models in Cleveland, Ohio had introduced 3/16" scale models to the model train world in the pages of Model Railroader in 1937. Before introducing the trains they had taken the time to get NMRA standards for the scale which they and NMRA called "CD" gauge.

  According to an interview with Maurice Romer published in the September 1981 TTOS bulletin it was one of Gilberts' sales managers - Phil Connell - who initially pushed the idea of a scale size of 3/16", however, Mr. Romer did admit there were a number of stories around concerning the 3/16" size.  In the same article he did comment that Louis Hertz thought the gage should have been identified as H-1 for half of I gauge.  As for "S" Mr. Romer said, " Somebody told me that the advertising end of the company started calling it "S" gauge in reference to scale since it was indeed a scale gauge."

 

 

Cover 1939 Catalog

 

  While the first few pages of the 1939 catalog spent a lot of ink talking about "Tru-Scale" trains only eight pages of the 48 page catalog actually featured them. The offerings for 1939 were two engines - the Hudson, and the UP 4-8-4 Northern, seven types of die-cast freight cars and two types of die-cast passenger cars (coach and combine).  The engines and the cars were offered ready to run and also in kit form.

 

 

 

 

 

Catalog cuts of diecast cars

 

 

 

  Also featured in 1939 were the new drop link couplers which were offered across the entire 1939 lineup.

 

4-6-4 Hudson

 

  The prototype was the NYC J3A with a 12 wheel tender.  In 1939 it was offered in two sets (freight and passenger).

 

 

   The 1939-1942 RDC/DRC locomotives that came with die-cast cars had grooves in the rear set of drivers to hold rubber traction tires (and here you thought this was a 1970's MPC thing) to aid in pulling the heavy die-cast cars.

 

  There are Hudson variations but most of the variation is either subtle like the traction tires or internal.  External variation - traction tires, separate cast ornamental steam generator vs. generator cast as in integral part of the boiler casting.

 

1939

 

  Motor armature mounted with brush holders protruding out right side of locomotive below catwalk. Spur gear on the left side. All left side drivers geared. Loco has Remote Directional Control (RDC), lucite headlight, removable boiler front, separate ornamental generator, #5640 rubber stamped below cab window and "New York Central" rubber stamped on tender side (kit had decals for both number and lettering). Production number for engine/tender combination is 564 (Kit is K-564)

 

1940

 

  Five types:

 

  1. Spur drive - conventional remote control - #5640 rubber stamped below cab window.

 

  2. Worm gear drive - powered rear axle only - other wheels turned by being connected to the drive set via the connecting rod - regular remote control - #570 rubber stamped under cab windows.

 

  3. Worm drive - RDC control - $5640 rubber stamped under cab windows.

 

  4. Identical to #3 but was the kit and came with decal lettering.

 

  5. Worm gear drive - RDC control - #531 rubber stamped under cab windows - engine came with die-cast cars.

 

 

 

#531 Hudson

 

 

  The 1940 engines had the generator as part of the engine boiler casting.

 

1941-1942

 

  Four versions of the Hudson were made during this period. Two had sequence reversing and two had DRC, one came in kit form. The NYC tender was listed as either #563 or #563C, the "C" was the designation for the "chugger" unit. In the sets with sheet metal cars the engine was #570 and with the die-cast it was #531.  The kit engine was provided with decals - #5640.

[x2000]

Alas, all of it went wshen I, like many others, "converted" to HO as a teen-ager.  Evventually, I saw the light and went back to O gauge, but the Flyer was long gone.

X2000

[Northwoods Flyer]

Greetings X2000,

Welcome to the forum.

The only reason that there is not a larger amount of information about 3/16 O gauge Flyer in the thread is because I do not have a great amount of it in my collection to photograph and post.  There is a smattering of information scattered throughout the thread but not many folks have posted pictures of items in their collections.  It would be great if they did. 

I originally started the thread with a focus on Prewar Wide and Narrow Gauge Flyer items, but from time to time other items and eras have appeared.  I welcome any pictures and information about American Flyer and especially like the items from the prewar era.

Here is a copy of page 11 from the 1941 catalog showing your Crusader Freight set.

 

Most of the items are relatively common and quite a few have been showing up on ebay lately.  The 565 Atlantic will of course be the most expensive item.  Doyle lists values for the 565 from $75 to $225 depending on condition.  It was cataloged in 1941 and again in 1945-1946.  I have a suspicion that all of the items that show up in the post war catalogs were actually produced in the prewar era and held over until toys were selling again.

 

At the moment there is a complete Crusader freight set available on ebay for a "Buy it Now" price of $250.00.  It includes the engine and tender the three cars, two switches and enough track to make a large outer oval and a connected smaller inner oval.  I don't remember if there is a transformer with it.  That does not seem like an outrageous price to me.

 

Do you still have any of the parts of your original set?

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[x2000]

Hi,

I have been enjoying this thread from the beginning, hoping to see something about the 3-rail AF equipment from the early 40s.  Maybe the trains from 41-45 are not exactly pre-war, but most if not all of the stuff sold appears to have been manufactured before production seems to have stopped during the war. At least the catalogs stopped. 

In any case my very first train was an AF 3-rail Crusader set listed in the 1941 catalog for $10.50. I got it as new in 1946.  It featured an Atlantic loco (565) without smoke or choo-choo, but with a headlight. The tender was metal, as were the three freight cars.  As I remember it, the train was trouble free except for the little plug between the engine and tender which was not a challenge at all for a little kid to disable and then wonder why the train didn't run!  It fit in well with the Lionel equipment I grew up with.

I would like to find out if this then fairly common set is still obtainable at a reasonable price.  Thanks for your help.

X2000

[lionelnut]

Northwoods Flyer,

 Thanks for posting the pictures....Listened to the talking train station and it just like mine, I have 2 records with 4 different recordings but that is the one I like best....

 Lionelnut

[Northwoods Flyer]

Lionelnut sent several pictures of his layout and the lamp posts that have been the topic of discussion.  I am posting them here.

 

 

It looks like your lamp posts are the same ones that Sturgeon-Phish has on his layout.

 

The pictures also include his 755 American Flyer Talking Station.  I have taken the liberty of posting a link to Youtube that allows you to hear the message that the station plays.  It is a video posted by our own green97probe, from this forum, of his Christmas layout.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2V1VMZt64g

 

Thanks lionelnut and green97probe.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Sturgeon-Phish]

Both Colber and American Flyer made the lamps.  If I get a chance I will do some digging to see what markings are present.

Jim

[lionelnut]

Yes Jim and Greg those are the lights.  Greg I sent you the email.  Thanks

 Harold

[Northwoods Flyer]

Sturgeon-Phish

 

 

 

Jim Sturgeon-Phish,

I think that these are the photos that lionelnut is referring to.  They are from the very first days that this thread was in existance.  Are these the street lights that Flyer marketed as their Boulevard lights? 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[lionelnut]

It doesn't take me long to confuse a board and myself, guess I'll figure it out - so sorry.  I am new here and you posted some pictures back on 1-22-08 that had green street lights.  I have never seen them before but I have 8 of them along with the mystic talking train station.  My green lights say latrob casting company on the bottom and I was just guessing they must be american flyer??  Northwoods flyer responded back to me but his lights are different.

Have a nice day all.

[Sturgeon-Phish]

Great looking set!!!!!

Lionelnut, WELCOME!!!  Refresh my memory about the lights.

Jim

[lionelnut]

Northwoods Flyer,

 I am new on here and don't really know how this all works but I was replying to a post made by sturgeon-phish about the lights.  I also have not figured out how to post a pic of the lights but if you email me I can send it to you.  I'll also put one on my avatar...

Lionelnut

[DocBen]

 Hmm...thanks for that info.  Will take some time to check all that info out.  I really should have had faith...I tightened the red bulb in the caboose, and OF COURSE it worked.  Shines nice and bright.  Not sure how long it will last, but it looks pretty cool.  Thanks again!

[Northwoods Flyer]

Here are two links that I use to identify the bulbs that I need to replace.  If you do a Google search for sources of toy train lights you might find others.

http://www.three-rail.com/BULBS.HTM#BA432

http://autolumination.com/trainbulbs.htm

I think that Hobby Surplus also carries replacement bulbs.

Good luck in your search.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[O-GaugeOscar]

 You might try using the eraser end of a #2 pencil to tighten the bulb in the locomotive's socket. 

If you need replacement bulbs, try RadioShack or eBay.  When searching on eBay, look under both American Flyer and Lionel.  I've seen bulbs offered for sale, but haven't compared prices with RadioShack.

Good luck!

 

[DocBen]

 As an aside...anyone know where to get replacement bulbs for the old trains?  My Flyer has a good sized bulb up front that works intermittantly (not sure if the filament is broken and lights when it connects, or if it is just loose in the socket.  Also, the #3211 "Lighted Caboose" has a bulb inside, that it apparently out.  Is there a standard place you have found old-style bulbs for these trains?  Or are they still sold in modern sizes?  Thanks again and again!

[DocBen]

Northwoods Flyer

DocBen,

What a great set you have.  Your father-in-law must have taken very good care of it.  The condition of the cars is like new.  Do you have the lead and trailing trucks for the locomotive, or are those items that you are trying to find?  I appreciate hearing the story of the significance of this train set to your wife and to your family.

Thanks too for posting the video of the set in action.  Its pretty impressive.  And you have a great start on a railroad empire.

 

He must have taken great care of it.  Everything we inherited from him was well-maintained and in great shape(usually with hand-written maintenance records.)  His younger brother (who is now 70) will hopefully be visiting us from NC this year.  He remembers how they only ever got the train out for special holidays.  I can't wait for him to see it run.  He has no idea I have it put together.  I never met my wife's father, but my wife is now 37, and never saw the train run until last night.  She was very pleased, and I'm sure her uncle will be a little nostalgic about it too.  My 7 year-old daughter absolutely loves to play with our trains.  I hope to keep her involved as long as possible.  She's always been a daddy's girl so far...I'll stretch that out forever if I can.

That's why the train means so much to me.  Think about all of this emotion and nostalgia from a toy that cost around $15.00 just 72 short years ago.  It's in great shape, and yes, I have the trucks for the engine.  They are kind of chewed up, so I removed them.  I'm still awaiting any contact with Eric Trickel so that I can order replacements for running...no luck so far. 

 

Thanks for "making" me get so involved in this process!!

[Northwoods Flyer]

DocBen,

What a great set you have.  Your father-in-law must have taken very good care of it.  The condition of the cars is like new.  Do you have the lead and trailing trucks for the locomotive, or are those items that you are trying to find?  I appreciate hearing the story of the significance of this train set to your wife and to your family.

Thanks too for posting the video of the set in action.  Its pretty impressive.  And you have a great start on a railroad empire.

Lionelnut,

to the forum.  The Mystic station is one of my  personal favorites of all the accessories that American Flyer made.  I'm looking for one of the Prewar versions that was done in the brown colors.  It was known as the Akoostikin Station.

I took a look at all of my street lamps (579 and 580) and all of mine have "American Flyer made by Gilbert" on the bottom of the casting.  Could you post a photo of one of your lamps?  I'd like to see if they are identical to the ones that I have.  I've used quite a few of both the double (580) and the single (579) lamp posts in both silver and green on the BlueBoard Central Division of American Flyer Lines.

 

Thanks for posting folks and keep the photos coming.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby.

Northwoods Flyer

[lionelnut]

That is a very nice collection.  While I am more of a Lionel Nut I do have the Mystic talking train station that I just love and the funniest thing is I have about 8 of the green street lamps you have and I had never seen them before, I know they say latrob casting company on the bottom so now I will guess they are american flyer.....Have a great day

[DocBen]

 A video to prove it's running, for those of you interested...It's pretty basic, but I love how it looks chugging along!

[DocBen]

The actual catalog picture...

My version of the 1938 catalog...the No. 10 Northern Pacific Freight!

 

How'd I do?

[DocBen]

 Here are my three full "O" sets.  The Polar Express set...the 1938 American Flyer #10 set, and the 1976 Lionel Rock Island set (from my childhood).

[DocBen]

The tender:

The "sand car," I believe:

 The Box Car:

The Milk Car:

The Caboose:

[DocBen]

 I'm going to try to post pictures here now...so you can see what I'm talking about.

 

 

Here is my 1938 American Flyer...

[Sturgeon-Phish]

What a neat story

Thanks for sharing!

Jim

[DocBen]

Northwoods Flyer

DocBen,

I took a look at one of my engines from about the same time as your engine.  Does the inside of the cab of your locomotive look anything like this?

 

If it does, that large silver piece in the middle should move back and forth each time that you apply power to the engine.  With each movement it changes the direction of the engine.  There is no neutral with this motor.  I have noticed that my engines that have this type of mechanism do stick on occasion, keeping the engine going in only one direction.  There isn't a need for a seperate control for reverse.

 

At the top on the left there is a lever that moves up against that silver piece and holds it in place, locking the engine in one direction.

 

These two photos show that lever in the two different position.

 

 

Beyond this point I can't be much help.  If the motor in your loco doesn't look like this I'm lost  .

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

 

No, nothing like this...this looks earlier than mine.  Nonetheless, brilliant!  You solved it for me. 

Up inside of the front of the engine, there is a small metal bar that connects to a spring.  I slid a pen cap up there, and it easily moves and springs back.  What happens to be next to it?  An electromagnet, it looks like.  So I move it back and forth a few times, and I finally get it to engage in forward gear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I put the rest of the cars on the track and my wife got to see her dad's train set run for the first time in her life.  It's the only connection she has with her grandfather, whom she has no memory of.  He bought this train for her father when he was born, in 1937.  She remembers her father cleaning it and putting it back away, but never remembers him running it.  Thanks guys!!!  You are the best. 

This journey was quite a lot of fun...on to the next one!

[DocBen]

 So after reading a ton more about this...I think that maybe there is a switch somewhere that "locks" the motor to whichever direction that it was going when it locked.  However, I cannot find anything like that.  If I can flip the switch, I believe that stopping the current will switch the motor from forward to neutral to reverse back to neutral...just maybe.  Some of the literature out there seems to still believe that American Flyer was first made in 1946...Grrrrrrrr!!!  Anyone know anything about a 1938 or near to that Flyer?  Haa...I know I'm being a pain in the butt...but I want to see it run!!