Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

[Northwoods Flyer]

Rob,

Thanks for posting the additional photo of the engine.  I did a little more research and I am not sure that I have identified your engine correctly.  It appears to be a Type X engine casting. The only time that the Type X engine was paired up with the the tender you have (Type IV) was in 1939 with the Double Header set.

The engine that you have was not cataloged in 1936.  So there are a couple of options here. 1) You have the correct consist and tender for a 1936 set, but the engine isn't the one normally catalolged with the set.   2) You might have a different tender stored away somewhere that actually belongs with your set, and then this is a set from a different year.  In any case, the set was cataloged sometime between 1936 and 1938 when the blue-green cars with silver roofs were cataloged.

What other Flyer equipment did you inherit from your cousins? Inquiring minds want to know. 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[ADCX Rob]

Another pic(4th car not in pic):

The correct consists for the engine, and cars, if they are not now matched up, are in my basement somewhere.  They all came from the original owners, my cousins, who got them new in the 1930's.

Rob

[Northwoods Flyer]

Hi Rob,

I'll take a crack at identifying the set.  The four blue-green cars in the set: 3 - 3171 Pullmans and 1 - 3172 Observation were cataloged in that color in 1937 and 1938. The Type VIII trucks on your cars and the tender were used from 1933 to 1938.  Its hard to make out too much about the engine in the set, but the blue cars were not shown with your tender in the catalog either year.

 

 

The 1936 catalog shows the same four cars, and your tender in set 1720-R BALTIMORE & OHIO  Passenger.  The catalog illustration shows the cars as being a silver color.  However the catalog text says "The lighted passenger cars and the observation are finished in full enamel with brass trim. (Color subject to change)."  I think the silver color is really supposed to be blank, so that any color passenger car could be used in the set.

 I am going to guess that you have what Flyer called their B&O locomotive.  If you can provide a better picture I might be able to tell you a bit more.  Does the engine have a red firebox light?

Do you know anything about the history of your set?

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby  

Northwoods Flyer

[ADCX Rob]

Anyone know what set this is?

Rob

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Lionel 2813 Cattle Car

The final entry in the Flyer - Lionel comaprison of large freight cars from the late prewar era is an offering from Lionel. 

 

The 2813 Cattle Car received its automatic box coupler in 1938, as did all of the cars in the 2800 series. Lionel had been offering the cattle car for quite a few years prior to this as the 813.  In 1936 it was offered in this color combination of cream sides with maroon roof and door guides.

Sadly, during this time period Flyer did not offer a cattle car in the large freight cars (9 1/2") , or in the small freight cars (6") in Narrow Gauge.  They did offer a cattle car in the Wide Gauge line.

 

 

I have always thought this was odd considering that during this time frame Chicago was the heart of the meat packing industry with the Chicago stock yards being a very busy place.

 

The 2813 has doors that open.

 

 

It also has plated tags.

 

 

 

I have always liked Lionel's offering.  Its one of my collecting fantasies to discover a factory sample or prototype of a cattle car that American Flyer designed but never put into production in the Narrow Gauge line.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Strainst,

Thanks for the additional information on the sheet metal Hiawatha.  So far that little beauty has eluded me.  I have a freight tender and most of the freight cars, but the engine has been a tough item to win on the bay.

American Flyer 3025 Wrecker/Crane Car and Lionel 2810 Crane

When you see these two cars together it hardly seems like you can make a comparison between them.

 

 

Flyer's 3025 was cataloged from 1936 through 1938.  It appeared in the 1939 catalog as the #416 Wrecker/Crane.  This example is Greenberg's variation (C).

 

 

Lionel's 2810 Crane was introduced in 1930 and was cataloged until Lionel stopped production because of the war.  This example is in the later colors and unfortunately it currently lacks its hook.

 

 

The 2810 has a lot of play value with the number of control dials and options that it offers.

 

 

It also has a unique brace on the bottom that helps to stabilize the car when the crane rotates on the platform.

 

 

It clamps nicely to tubular track, but it won't work on Fastrack.

 

 

Both cranes swivel on the car.

 

 

 

Both cars gave their owners an opportunity to pick up and load freight.  But in a side by side comparison I would pick the 2810.  That's saying a lot for a loyal American Flyer fan.

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[SkyArcher]

I have the whistle.  I thought it was a chugger.

[strainst]

"Thanks for the information.  That really helps!!  I just scored the rest of the set consisting of 1223 coaches.  They in the same beautiful shape as the Hiawatha. "

Here is some additional information on the Hiawatha locomotives that are powered by the electric motors.  There are two versions of these locomotives. The most common ones are the ones that just powered by the motor but the second version has a motor and a whistle unit located in the body of the locomotive.  It uses the same whistle unit that is in the Type XX uncataloged locomotive.  American Flyer mounted the whistle unit to the rear of the motor in the Type XX locomotive, but in the Hiawatha locomotive, the unit is mounted to the front of the motor and behind the headlight.  I can’t tell from your picture if there is a whistle unit in your locomotive, but if it does then you have a bonus with your engine.  The whistle unit is a mechanical whistle and while I have had a couple of locomotives with these whistles, I have found that they either work or they don’t.  If they don’t work, I have not found a way to get inside of them as they seem to be sealed unit.  When they do work they have nice soft whistle that is activate by the rotation of the wheels.

Strainst

[SkyArcher]

Thanks for the information.  That really helps!!  I just scored the rest of the set consisting of 1223 coaches.  They in the same beautiful shape as the Hiawatha.

[Northwoods Flyer]

 Hi SkyArcher,

Welcome back.  What you have is an example of one of Flyer's uncataloged engines.  It is a Type XXIV (according to Greenberg's designation) sheet metal Hiawatha. It is most likely the #634 engine.  It was cataloged in 1936 and 1937.  It came in both a windup version and the electric version that you have here.  The wind up version and the electric version each pulled freight or passenger sets.  The engine with the rounded back is usually assigned to pull the streamlined passenger cars, while the square back version of the engine pulled a freight consist.  Flyer did not stick strictly to that practice.  The tender that you have is a 3192 Type X tender.

This style of sheet metal Hiawatha was at the lower end of the price range.  It must have been very popular.  It shows up on eBay quite frequently, and most examples indicate that the engine and what ever consist it pulled were well played with.

Thanks for posting.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[SkyArcher]

Here is one I didn't see anywhere.  Does anybody have any model or date information on this AF Hiawatha??

 

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Flyer 3219 Dump Car and  Lionel 2816 Hopper

  

American Flyer produced the 3219 Dump Car from 1934 through 1938. It was renumbered to 419 in 1939. 

 

It has decals on both ends

 

 

And it is rubber stamped with the number on the bottom.

 

Lionel's 2816 Hopper car was introduced in 1927 and ran through 1942.  It had several different variations.  The most common color is red and in 1938 when the automatic couplers were introduced it was red.

 

 

It came with nickle tags.

 

 

I also have a variation from 1940 through 1942.

 

 

 

The rubber stampings

 

 

Both of the cars have operating parts.

 

The 3219 has sides that drop.

 

 

The 2816 has doors on the bottom of the hopper that open.

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

[Northwoods Flyer]

Flyer 3216 Log Car and Lionel 2811 Flat Car

Operating Flat Car 3811

Once again I have discovered a gap in the Northwoods Flyer Collection. I am indebted to Mersenne6 for several of the photos to help with the comparison.

Flyer's 3216 log car has its roots in the 3006 American Flyer R.R. log car that was available from 1924-1927.

   

 

 Lionel's equivalent car during the same time period was the 811 flat car which was introduced in 1926.

 

 

 

In 1930 Flyer took their 3206 Machinery Car and added a lumber load to it and renumbered it as the 3216. Lionel added automatic couplers to their flat cars in 1938.  Unfortunately I don't have an example of the 2811, but it looks exactly like the 811, except that it is aluminum in color.

 

This is one version of the 3216.  It is listed in the Greenberg guide as version (D). It is from approximately 1930. There are other versions of the 3216 shown back on page 24.

 

 

 

 

During this same time Lionel marketed an operating flat car numbered 3811.  I am guessing that it was introduced about 1939.

 

 

Mine is in tough shape; missing the load, one brakewheel, and one stake.  Amazingly, it still operates.

 

 

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

[Northwoods Flyer]

SkyArcher,

All of my transformers are American Flyer from the Gilbert era.  I have never had any problem with any of them.  I have a few from the pre-war era as well, and the only issue that I have ever had is that the cords need to be replaced when the insulation becomes brittle.  Most of the time the older, smaller transformers are pretty low priced; which may be why the train shop was not interested in selling you an old transformer.  I have several 8B transformers - rated at 100 watts.  They have a fixed voltage (15 v) and a variable voltage (7-15v) post.  I use them to test engines, run accessories, and power a loop of track.  Most of them have a short out (help me here on nomenclature lionelsoni) protector and a reset button and nifty lights on the top to tell you when the current is flowing and when you have a short.  Just remember the protection is only for the transformer, not your engines or other equipment. 

There are plenty of other vintage transformers by Flyer and Lionel out there, and there are brand spanking new transformers as well, it all depends on what your needs are.  I wouldn't be afraid of an vintage transformer as long as you use common sense.

I am sure that others have their favorites among the vintage transformers available

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

[SkyArcher]

Thanks for your help.  There are a lot of AF transformers out there and I don't which ones go with the Royal Blue and 1218 Steeple cab.  I tried to buy an AF transformer from a train shop and  they said that AF transformers are an electrical hazard and they don't recommend that I buy it.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Hi SkyArcher,

I'm glad that you have been able to find the information that you have been looking for. Thanks for the kind words. 

I don't know a great deal about transformers.  What do you want to know about them?  If you post your specific questions I am sure that someone on the forum might know the answer. Lionelsoni is a great resource.  You may want to post your questions to the forum as a seperate thread.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[SkyArcher]

Northwoods Flyer,  Thanks for generating this thread.  I have a 1218 loco with 1205-1207 cars and a Royal Blue freight consist that you have helped me find information on.  Do you by chance have information on the different transformers used on the various prewar layouts?

[Northwoods Flyer]

Flyer 3213 Searchlight Car and Lionel 2820 Floodlight Car

Flyer cataloged their 3213 Searchlight car in 1938. It appeared again in the catalog in 1939 as the 415 Floodlight car.  The only real difference is the coupler. The 3213 has the sheet metal knuckle coupler and the 415 has the link and pin couplers.

  

  

    

Lionel produced the 2815 Floodlight car during this same era. This version is most likely from the years 1938-1939 when the body color was green, the automatic couplers were available and the 2 searchlights were nickel plated.

      

     

   

 

    

   

It must have been great to be a kid during these years.  I can imagine getting the catalogs from both companies and trying to decide which brand deserved your loyalty. 

 

 Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

 Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

American Flyer 3212 Borden's Milk Car

Following the American Flyer sequence of car numbers in the narrow gauge large freight cars we come to the 3212 Borden's Milk Car.  The Milk Car was cataloged in 1938 and 1939 as the 3212, and again in 1940 and 1941 as the 412.  During this era Lionel had no comperable car, although much later in their history they do have a Borden's Milk Car.  Back on pages 38 and 39 you will find some excellent photos of the these cars and some photos of the prototype posted by Mersenne6 and DocBen.

The major difference over the years that it was cataloged are the type of truck and the type of coupler.  It was supplied with 3 different coupler types during its history.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

American Flyer 3211 Caboose

 and Lionel 2817  Caboose

The caboose always signals the end of a train, but in this case it does not indicate that we are at the end of the line for large freight cars for either Flyer or Lionel.  It just so happens that in the sequential numbering of Flyer 9 1/2" enameled freight cars the 3211 caboose comes next.

Flyer cataloged the 3211 from 1928 to 1938. It appeared in 1939 as the 411.  The 9 1/2" cabooses (cabeese?) are all similar to each other, with the usual changes to trucks and couplers and brass plates being replaced by decals. This version of the 3211 is probably from the  1930 to 1932 era based on the trucks and the darker red cupola. (I think this is Greenberg's version E).

Lionel cataloged their large caboose from 1926 to 1942 with a number of changes to color and couplers and methods of identification.  This 2817 is a rubber stamped version and it is probably from the 1940 - 1942 time frame.

Rubber stamping

The tail end of the tail end of a train.

I think that both examples of the caboose are great looking.  I'd like to have some of the other versions of Lionel's caboose from this era, particularly the red and peacock version or the one that is all peacock.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

strainst,

Thanks for the photos of your No. 16 engine.  It looks like is in great shape.  I have very little experience with Flyer's windup engines, except for the red one that I sold years ago when I was only going to collect Gilbert S-gauge.  I guess we all have stories of the things we regret selling or "the one that got away".  I wish I had that red engine now, as my Prairie State set has no engine to pull it across the plywood prairie.

It sounds like you have an exciting project ahead of you.  Just how much of a remodel will your train room be getting?  I hope that you have kept out enough examples from your collection to post here for the duration of the remodel.  I look forward to seeing more.

Flyer 3210 Tank Car and Lionel 2815 Tanker -Addendum

The biblical advice to "Seek and ye shall find."  even has its applications in the world of train collecting.  Shortly after I posted the entry on the tank cars I came across a nice (and affordable) 2815 on ebay.  It just arrived so I thought I would post a photo of it, along with another variation of the 3210. 

This version of the 3210 is from somewhere in the1933-1938 time frame.  The type VIII trucks were used on the enamled freight cars during those years

This example of the 2815 is from 1938 or later.  Lionel tankers changed to the aluminum color in 1934 and the box couplers were introduced in 1938.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[strainst]

Great post on the tank cars.  Now lets see if I can post a picture or two.  Below is the most recent addition to the collection.

This is a Type XI, AF No. 16 Locomotive with a Type II No. 120 tender.  This is the first year version which was cataloged in 1922 as an American Flyer No. 15 locomotive.  In the area below the cab windows; there is a raised panel with AF 16 inside the boarders.  After this year, American Flyer did away with the panel, changed the style of the lettering and added periods after the letters, for example A.F. 16.  From 1923 to 1926, American Flyer cataloged this locomotive as an AF No. 16 locomotive and then later as an AF No. 28 locomotive, but there was no difference between the two.  Both of these locomotives had the A.F. 16 below the cab windows.  In 1929, American Flyer again released the same locomotive, cataloged as a No. 28, but this time the locomotive was painted red and below the cab windows, there was just A.F., but no numbers.  American Flyer continued until 1932 with this version.  There is a reference in Alan Schuweiler reference book "American Flyer Prewar O Gauge" to a second version of this locomotive made out of cast-aluminum instead of cast-iron in 1929.  The black painted locomotives were highlighted in gold, orange or yellow.  The red painted locomotives were highlighted in silver.  I do have some of the other versions in my collection, but they are boxed up.  Over the winter I will be remodeling the train room and because of the work that will be going on, I thought it best to pack the collection up so it will not be in the way; well most of it anyway.  I have kept some trains out as inspiration to remind me what will lie at the end of this adventure.  Below is another picture of the locomotive.  Enjoy!

 

 

 

strainst

[Northwoods Flyer]

Flyer 3210 Tank Car and Lionel 2815 Tanker

In gathering the photos for this comparison project I discovered that the Northwoods Flyer Collection has a few holes in it. Most of the photos in this entry were borrowed from Mersenne6.  Thank You for your help and collaboration once again.

The origins of American Flyer's 3210 enameled tank car can be found in the earlier 3010 lithographed tank car.  It was produced from 1925-1927.

Lionel introduced their large freight cars in 1926 with the 800 series cars with latch couplers.  So the two cars in the next photo are from appoximately the same time.

Mersenne6's example of the 815 tanker has the early latch coupler and copper journals which puts it somewhere around 1930 to 1933.  (I believe that the color of the tanker changed to aluminum in 1934.) The automatic box couplers came out in 1938 and by that time the tanker was bearing the number 2815. (The 815 will have to do as a stand in for the 2815 for now.)

Flyer introduced the 3210 enameled tank car in 1928 and it appeared in the line until 1938.  During that time it had numerous incarnations. The Greenberg guide lists 15 different variations of the 3210 and I have several that don't appear in the guide.  You have to love the opportunity to collect variations that Flyer provides.

This is a photo of the blue version (B) of the tank car that was offered for seperate sale in 1928-1929.  For that reason it can be a bit more difficult to find.

I have photos of other versions of the tank car posted back on pages 8 and 10 of this thread.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

Strainst,

to the forum and to this thread. I enjoyed reading your post and its good to have you join us. Thanks for the kind words and for taking the time to read all of the pages of the thread.  You are certainly welcome to jump in and post a photo or a question or a comment at any time - reading the entire thread is not a prerequisite. 

I discovered eBay about 10 years ago now and as my wife can tell you, the rest is history.  The flow into our house of cardboard boxes, styrofoam worms, and bubble wrap was pretty constant for a while. 

 Most of the O gauge portion of the Northwoods Flyer collection has been purchased through eBay - except for the core of the O gauge collection which is the equipment that I inherited from my family.  The Wide Gauge portion was purchased back in the old days when you had to send away for a list with a SASE, and that is pretty much how the S gauge portion was accumulated too. I have not made the pilgrimage to York yet, but it is on my list of things to do "one of these days".  I'm just worried what I might come home with once I make it there.  I have attended a number of train shows here in Wisconsin, but the amount of Pre War trains has always been minimal.

I enjoyed reading your journey into Pre War American Flyer trains.  I think that a number of folks reading your story can relate. Its great to know that you and your dad shared the enjoyment of trains, and that you are sharing that enjoyment with your son now too.  We are also a 3 generation train family. 

I look forward to seeing your postings.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[strainst]

WOW!!  What a wonderful site!  I came across this site about a month ago and wanted to jump right in and start posting.  But what to write??  After giving it some thought, I decided to read all of 40 pages first before I started posting.  Not only are the posting very informative, the accompanying photos make this the best site(forum) for Pre-War American Flyer.

A little about myself.  I did not grow up with American Flyer trains.  My first and only train set I had as a kid was a Sears, Roebuck and Co Lionel HO set my father and I received as a combination gift one Christmas.  I still have the set.  I got back into trains in the early 90's when at an auction, I was the lucky bidder for a box full of trains.  At the same time I had a son who was just a toddler.  We have been into trains ever since. 

The box of trains turned out to be Post-War Lionel trains.  I started looking for trains at yard sales, flea markets and at other auctions.  I got a couple of reference books and started studying about the trains I was finding.  In one group of trains I found at a flea market, I came across some items that were not Post-War Lionel.   By this time I had found and joined a local train club, so I took these items to a meeting and asked who had made them.  They turned out to be Pre-War American Flyer.  They were neat, but they were not Lionel so I sold them.  By the late 90's, two thing happened; eBay and York.

I went to the TCA York train show for the first time in the late 90's.  I had never seen so many trains in one place in my whole life.  You saw things there that I thought you would see only in books or museums.  I had been collecting trains for six to seven years and my taste in trains was changing by this time.  The more I learned about trains, the more I was attracted to the trains produced in the pre-war era.   In one of the halls, I was behind a guy looking for wheels for a locomotive he was repairing for a customer of his.  The locomotive had been painted in white, which is why I remember it because it had such a neat look to it.  You could tell it had been well loved because the paint was worn off the edges and on the tops of the rivet details.  I later learned the locomotive was a 3307 American Flyer.  I left the show with a Lionel 1835 Locomotive and Tender.

About the same time, I came across a site on the internet.  It was called eBay. At that time they had a listing category called "Tin Plate."  I started looking to see what people were selling in this category.  There was Lionel, of course, but there was also American Flyer, Ives, and other makes made in the America and over in Europe.  Now you could go shopping any time you wanted.  You did not have to wait for a train show.  So I sold most of my Post War Lionel and started looking for Pre-War American Flyer and have not stopped looking; the core of my collection in now Pre-War American Flyer.  Now I will have to see if I can up load some pictures and post them later this week or next weekend.  Strainst

[AF53]

Thanks guys for all your information! I've already started looking into adding some cars to this clockwork locomotive. Are there any sites you know of that I can buy repro's of some 1920's catalogs beside Ebay?

[mersenne6]

  Here are a couple of sets headed by a #10.  Note the different tenders and also note the difference in cast lettering under the cab window.

 

#328 Tender and Cast "AF 10"under window

 

 

#120 style tender with "AF  " cast under window

 

 

Both of these sets are variations on the "Rainbow" set that Flyer offered for many years.

[Northwoods Flyer]

AZ53,

Hi Ray,

I thought I would follow up on mersenne6's post about the AF #10 and the consists that it pulled.  I personally don't have any examples of these trains in my collection, but here are some photos of the section of windup  O gauge trains in the 1927 catalog.  As mersenne6 pointed out, the #10 casting went by a variety of numbers and appeared in the catalog for a long time.  Good luck in your hunt.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[mersenne6]

  The American Flyer clockwork engine with the cast lettering "A.F. 10" under the cab window was variously cataloged as a #1, 2, 10, 11, and 12 between 1922 and 1932.  It came in a variety of 4 wheel passenger and freight sets whose consists could vary from 1 to 4 cars.  Any of the #1107 and #1108 passenger cars would be right at home behind the engine as would any of the 4 wheel freight cars from the period. 

[AF53]

I've been searching, without much luck, and thought I'd got directly to the best source I know, right here! I just came across a clockwork AF10. I read earlier and found some great info, thanks! But I'm interested buying some of the car(s) that might have followed this loco. I'm also looking into buying the catalog(s) that this was featured in. Thanks for any help you can provide.

Ray