Thanks for the reply and sorry I have been away from the post for awhile. I just got a 1934 catalog and I agree that I see no set with the combination I have. The closest I see is the 1367 Ranger – Freight as far as cars go but is still missing 3 of mine 3016, 3046, and 3018. The pictures you have posted are the cars I have but my tank car has the blue deck. The engine in that set is not the same as mine. Looking at the catalog the only sets with an engine like mine all have the longer cars. So I am clueless as what set mine may be or year. My dad told me when he got this set it was 1934 and I identified the engine by looking at your posts because the 3323 looks like mine. I just set up a test station in my shed so I could go over all of the engines I have and test them and lube them. It took a wile for me to get my old A.F.model 9 transformer working because I had to replace the power cord and two wires inside of it.
I am wanting to build a layout in the basement now that I am retired. Most of the trains have not been run since 1983. I will to post pictures but not sure I know how,
Can you explain how I can post pictures to this thread?
Thanks again,
Kevin
Joined 1-21-2011 TCA 13-68614
Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL.
Happy 3rd Anniversary
I am actually a few days late.
Greetings folks. I thought I would take a few minutes and greet all of you from my desk here in the #101 Station on the Blueboard Central. As I have said before, when I started this thread I had no idea how long it would last or what kind of contributions there would be. It has been gratifying to see the interest that folks have shown and the fantastic equipment that has been photographed and shared. I look forward to checking the thread each day to see if there are new posts or new questions. Thanks to each and every person who has read or contributed to the thread. I'm looking forward to what will appear here on the thread in the coming year, and to meeting new American Flyer enthusiasts and those who are just plain curious and discovering Pre War trains for the first time. So let me invite you to come on board and lets begin another trip down the track. There is bound to be more Pre War American Flyer to be found and make its appearance. All Aboard!
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Hi KRM,
to the forum and to this thread. As you can see you did just fine in getting your entry to post.
I'll try to address your question about the date of your engine. Greenberg classifies all of the 3300 series of engines as type VIII; which appeared in the Flyer catalogs from 1931 to 1937. You have come across one of the engines that can be very difficult to identify by number and by year. The majority of this series of engines does not have the number on it anywhere, so identifying the different versions can be a real task. Without a photo or some additional details it would be difficult to do a better job of identifying the engine than you have done. How did you identifying the engine as a 3323?
In regards to the firebox light not being present; I have 4 examples of the Type VIII engine in my collection and only one of them has the firebox light in it.
When the light is present it gives a really neat look to the engine, especially when you run it on the Carpet Central with all the room lights turned off.
I have a question and this is my first post so I hope I am doing it right. I have what I think is a 1934 set with these parts.
My question is I don’t see the fire box light on the engine. SO is the set 1934 or did they make them without the fire box light?
Item
Number
Engine Year
3323
Tender
3199
Tank Car
3018
Dump Car
3019
Sand Car
3016
Log car
3046
Box Car / Orange
3015
Lighted Caboose
3017
Glendale Depot with lights and gate
Station house with light
104
Transformer 75 watts # 1269
1269
Transformer 150 watts # 9
9
Lamp pole Red
Lamp pole Green
Crossing with bell
switches and track
Thanks for the kind words Ray. And thanks for the photos of your set. It looks like it is in very nice condition. It makes you wonder where it spent most of its life. Please keep posting more photos of your Pre War Flyer.
1927 Catalog Offerings
Pages Ten and Eleven have some wonderful Narrow Gauge sets which appeared only in this catalog. I find the 6 1/2 inch lithographed passenger cars to be charming.
Let me introduce the Broadway Limited to you.
The consist contains the 3011 electric outline engine
Hi Northwoods Flyer!
I believe you've confirmed what I suspected. I also have the 1926 catalog. It was reprinted in 1976 by House of Heeg. Great one with color and 33 pages.
This thread has many amazing pictures and you guys have written what amounts to be the BEST historical documentation on Pre War American Flyer. (My opinion for what it's worth)
Here are some pics of the set I was talking about.
Engine 3011
American Railway Express. Catalog Car Number 1205
Catalog Car Number 1206 (Pic in catalog shows 1306)
Lighted Observation Car. Catalog Car Number ?
This set looks similar to The Washington Special and The Sensational Limited sets in the 1926 catalog without the extras. As I have mentioned earlier the set box would not have been able to fit the extras.
Again, I want to thank you for your help and I look forward to additional pics and information that this thread provides.
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Hi Ray,
I've been looking at my catalogs and here is the information that I have gathered. I'm not sure that it will shed any light on your set.
I also have a reprint of the 1927 Catalog. It was produced by Iron Horse Productions in 1977. It has 32 pages, so I think that your reproduction may be short by a few pages.
As you may know, American Flyer catalogs are notoriously inaccurate, so its possible that the catalog does not accurately describe your set, or your set may actually be one produced for a department store. Does the original set box have a number printed anywhere on the label? If so, that may give a clue as to its age and origin.
The 1927 catalog does not have the 3011 listed nor does it have the passenger cars in your set listed. The car numbers that you mention: 1205, 1206, and 1207 are listed as part of a mechanical wind up set in the 1925 catalog and the 1926 catalog. Is that the illustration that you are refering to?
Here are some photos of page 11 of the 1926 catalog.
Hi guys! Last I chimed in was about some clockwork cars and I've done pretty well in aquireing most of them....patience, patience! However maybe you can help me with a different issue.
I'm trying to identify my mid 1920's set I purchased a year ago. I have the 1926 catalog but my problem I believe is my 1927 repro catalog. It was reprinted in 1967 by A Roth and I don't believe it was printed with all the pages I'm seeing here.The back cover is page 12. However, here's what my set consists of. A 3011 engine, mail car 1205, passenger car 1306 and a lighted observation car 1206. All are red in color and the only words are American Flyer Lines above the windows. 8 curve and 4 straight track with a 50 watt transformer model number 1289. Also an ac circuit breaker model number 1275 and track terminal No 450. The set box is approx 17 x 14 and 4 inches high and without any identifying numbers. So the set wouldn't have had a tunnel, station or semaphore.
The cars look identical in every way to the 1205, 1206 and 1207 in the 1926 catalog I have but the observation car reads 1206 (notince the passenger car reads 1306 in the catalog as my car does) I believe Flyer often mixed numbers back then? But the transformer is a plug-in type and doesn't appear in the 1926 catalog (my 1927 doesn't even show any).
Please help,
Thanks
1927 Catalog
There are some very interesting Narrow Gauge sets in the 1927 Catalog as well as the Commander Wide Gauge set that I posted on the previous page. Some of the sets appeared only in this catalog. I would not have minded having any one of the sets to play with after Christmas.
The Oriental Limited appeared in this catalog with orange lithography. It looks a bit like its bigger cousin The Commander.
Neat idea on the stock car!
Ives continued to make O gauge through 1930 in Bridgeport. Their were some Lionel and Flyer pieces in the o gauge line up. Ill explain those later.
As far as books go, most are outdated. We considered writing a book but there just arnt enough collectors anymore who would buy it. Most new people wouid rather have a new MTH standard loco with smoke and all those horrifying and gaudy IMHO electronics. (Not trying to offend anyone, the new ones just make my tummy sour!)
Try the website at www.ivestrains.org. I would rec. wholeheartedly joining The Ives Society as the guys are truly a scholarly group and much more "collecting" oriented than what the TCA has become. Most are diehard Ives and Flyer guys and you could def. find enough guys willing to talk your ear off about Flyer to last a lifetime.
The website has better and more up to date information on Ives products than any book! It is also vastly superior in scope and completeness.
ivesboy,
Thanks for posting the photos and for providing all of the information. This a great addition to the thread. What would you recommend as a good book on Ives for someone who knows very little about their train production (meaning me ). Is the Greenberg guide a good book to start with?
I have known about these transition cars, and I know that they are Wide gauge. It made me wonder why it is that during this transition period Flyer and Lionel did not do the same type of thing with the Narrow Gauge (O gauge) line. Do you have any insight into this? Was the the o gauge line of Ives even produced at this time?
I have mentioned before that I have been disappointed that Flyer didn't produce a stock car in the Narrow Gauge line during this time. Inspired by your posts of transition cars I decided to take a bit of creative license and create a Narrow Gauge transition car - the only known example of an Ives stock car and Flyer Type VIII trucks. (Yes I know that the type VIII trucks weren't used until 1933, after the transition era).
Thanks for the inspiration.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
I also appreciate the pix and info, being myself interested in standard and wide gauge trains.
Here is the beautiful black and Cardinal red 194 hopper. It was all Ives and featured operating hopper doors which were opened by the scissor clips seen at the end. This car can be found with silver or gold rubber stamped lettering. A rare 1930 version has decal lettering. It also has true snake track pull.
For the sake of completeness i will show the Ives bodied cars from the period as well to show the entire line.
Here is the 196 flatcar. It was all Ives. Enameled yellow orange It had true snake pull couplers.
Detail of the truck mounting and couplers.
Next comes the 20-195 caboose. It again is all Flyer except for the trucks and couplers. It came with a Cardinal red body and frame, dark red/maroon roof, and a cadet blue cupola roof. I know of no variations. It was produced through 1929.
Ok back to business!
The next car in the series was the 20-194/20-198 gravel or sand car. This car was again all Flyer except for the trucks and couplers.
The first was numbered 20-194 and was enameled flat black. It was only available in 1928 and is very elusive.
For 1929 production Ives changed the number to 20-198. They probably realized that the 194 number was already taken by the hopper. It must have caused some confusion on order forms!
The 1929 car was enameled in a semi-gloss black and besides the color and plates was the same as the 20-194.
Here is a close-up of the plates.
Thanks for the kind words gentlemen! Im in the process of selling off most of my Lionel to focus more on Ives and Flyer wide gauge. I steered away from Flyer due to the difficulty in obtaining parts there for awhile. I've since became much more crafty and have a father in law who is a hobby machinist! That kinda makes things easier. I'm working on paying off an Ives Chief set now and next ill be hunting for a Flying Colonel. Any leads would be appreciated!
ivesboy, I second Northwoods Flyer's comment - your posts are a great addition to this thread -I'm looking forward to the next installment.
great information and photos. I am looking forward to more posts on these transition cars. I had no idea there were this many variations, but given the parts available and the goals of Lionel and Flyer it makes sense.
After Christmas 1927
I was intrigued by Mersenne6's posts about the days after Christmas, so I thought I would go back and look at some of my favorite sets and items that I would have enjoyed playing with after Christmas, or playing with the things my buddies got.
One of my favorite catalogs is the one from 1927
It has some fascintating sets that were offered. I am focusing on the Wide Gauge set called The Commander
Three versions of the Flyer bodied 20-193 Livestock Transportation car exist. The first was painted in the same colors as the scarce merchandise car. Green with a red roof. It is believed to have been available in 1928 only and was uncatalogued in these colors.
Next we have the car in orange with a maroon roof. 1928-29.
And lastly in the circus colors, agin with or without rubber stamped circus decoration.
Next comes the 20-192 Merchandise car. It is all Flyer except for the trucks and came in 3 variations.
The first is the rarest. Green with a red roof. It was never catalogued and was only sold as a separate sale item. I just got one of these out of a house with a New Yorker passenger set and a rabble of freights which proves the separate sale idea.
The second version, and in my opinion the most attractive of all the 28-29 freights is shown below. It was enameled yellow with a cadet blue roof.
The final version was also Yellow, but with a red roof. It was included in the Circus sets and can be found with or without rubber stamped markings.
The next car in the series was the 191 Coke car. I will include it for completeness, even though it was all Ives. The 1928-30 variation is shown below.
This car is a perfect example of the costly construction techniques employed by Ives. Each slat is an individual piece of tin, hand soldered in place and detailed by hand! Over 80 solder joints on this car!!!
The first of these cars in the series was the 20-192 tank car. The previous Ives version is shown below.
The first of the FLyer bodied cars was enameled orange and came with black highlights. This car was offered through mid-1929.
This car is also known to come with C&O decals. It is not known by me if these were promotional or regular production items. I would have to go with promotional.
Although all of these cars are rare, yes rare applies here. The scarcest of all is the one with Flying Colonel Blue highlights.
The last version of this car catalogued was a real Frankenstein. It used a Lionel 215 body on a FLyer frame with Ives trucks. It was made from mid 1929-30.
In 1928 the Ives Manufacturing corporation of Bridgeport Ct. was sued by creditors and filed for bankruptcy. Ives management wished for a private sale to another local firm however the courts turned it down. At auction the Ives Co, all its assets and factory were sold to a representative of Lionel for $73,250 dollars.
Lionel had purchased the firm jointly with American Flyer of Chicago. It is even speculated that A.C. Gilbert also fronted some of American Flyer’s contribution. The two firms quickly sent staff to Ives, who in cooperation with Ives management, reorganized the line to lower production costs. Ives rolling stock had been laboriously constructed. Mostly made up of small pieces of tin, soldered together and often hand detailed. These cars were probably sold at a loss. The new management team quickly stopped production of the old car bodies and replaced them with their own products.
American Flyer gave Ives their new 19” passenger cars as well as their new line of freight cars. Why Coleman agreed to this has been a long debate among collectors. Most agree with “Doc” Robbie who once said it was in return for the Ives 1134 casting which became the 4694 and 4660. These while modified became Flyer’s first wide gauge steamers.
When the 1928 Catalog rolled out it was filled with hybrid pieces. The subject of this segment is the American Flyer bodied freight cars. Ives offered 9 freight cars in 1928-29. These consisted of the 20-190 tank car, 191 Coke car, 20-192 boxcar, 20-193 stock car, 20-195 caboose, 194 hopper, 20-194 and 20-198 gravel cars, 196 flatcar, and the 197 lumber car. Of these 5 used flyer bodies with Ives trucks. The rest remained all Ives.
We can assume Ives received the raw product. Plain unpainted car bodies with their required trim. Ives then painted them in their own colors. And assembled them onto Ives trucks with special brackets. It was in these years Ives touted the presence of their “color lab.” In the 29’ catalog it is described that these engineers laboriously worked to provide the most striking color schemes for their products. One can hardly disagree. They are some of the most beautiful trains ever made.
A new feature released in 1928 by Ives was the snake pull coupler. It pulled from the truck pivot point instead of the end of the car body. It was intended to allow rolling stock to track better and it worked wonderfully. However the Flyer freights were not equipped with snake pull. Below is a detail of the snake pull arrangement on a Flyer bodied Black Diamond Express pullman.
The Flyer bodied freights remained in the catalog through 1929. Sometime late that year or early in 1930, Lionel bought out Flyer’s shares and replaced the FLyer cars with their own bodies again modified with Ives trucks and couplers. The Lionel cars featured Snake pull. After the 1930 production had ceased, Cohen closed the factory and moved the operations to Irvington. Thus ended the glorious history of “Americas greatest toymakers.”
These transition pieces, from both manufacturers, are scarce and desirable. A combination of small production runs, and the short amount of time in which they were produced have made them some of the most prized trains ever manufactured. Over the next few evenings i will describe each car and it’s variations in detail.
Most images from my personal collection or courtesy Dave McEntarfer and the Ives Train Society. The greatest collector organization on Earth! www.ivestrains.org.
Hello ivesboy,
Its nice to hear from you. Thanks for asking about a post. I think it would be a welcome addition to the thread. There hasn't been anything posted about those transition cars from what I can remember. I personally don't have any in my collection, but I think that part of the history of the three companies involved is fascinating. I look forward to reading your post. Please feel free to post anything about American Flyer from the Pre War era.
Northwoods,
I dont want to jack your thread so i figured id ask first. I am an Ives collector and thought readers might find an article on FLyer-Ives transition wide gauge interesting. WOuld it be ok to do a write up and post it?
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