My latest Pre-war Flyer collecting interest are the 1107 and 1108 cars (as well as the 1120 cars which are similar in size and construction with the exception of having fewer, but wider shaped windows), so I want to have readers/followers of this line, post their favorite 1107 / 1108 / 1120 cars.
The 1107 / 1108 cars first appear in the 1914 catalog as simulated wood sided lithograph cars under the American Flyer Line name and in 1916 these cars were changed to have a simulated steel sided lithograph. The cars had numerous variations over the years and last appeared in the 1934 catalog, which makes them the longest running series of cars in American Flyer production. I believe that there are between 75 and 100 variations of these cars, but could be wrong on that number.
I guess some basic descriptive features may help readers. The 1914 cars were lettered American Flyer Line and had simulated wood siding, the 1915 cars are shown in the Butler Brothers Catalog from that year with road names on them. 1916 brings the introduction of simulated steel sided cars, which were lettered "American Flyer Line". Somewhere around late 1916, early 1917 the cars include the winged locomotive below the windows and baggage cars get the winged locomotive on either side of the doors and the 1107 cars are now lettered "American Flyer". In 1918 the door windows are un-punched and we see both "American Flyer" and road named lettered cars. Somewhere around 1920 the frames change and there is now an "A" and "F" embossed in the car frames on either end. In 1922 the 1120 cars are introduced. Instead of having 8 windows between the doors, the cars now have 4 wider windows between the doors. Somewhere around 1924 the frames once again change, with the new frames having embossed steps and coil springs. Somewhere around 1927 or so the cars are changed so that the lettering states "American Flyer Lines" instead of "American Flyer"
These cars also came unlettered and were lettered for Continental Flyer, Imperial Limited, Nation Wide Lines, Dominion Flyer, and Yankee Flyer, as well as in road names such as Pennsylvania, Erie, New York Central, Union Pacific, Santa Fe, and Northwestern Line
Here are some of my favorites
Otis B. Drinkwater billbarman: Northwoods flyer, Thanks for the Pics! I assumed like most prewar/postwar tooling, they really got their moneys worth out of it. . As in your pics, almost every varriation of this engine I see comes with a back truck... makes me wonder if my version had it replaced with a single wheelset. Who knows. Before you go and change your rear wheel set, consider the following thought. All of the engines that Northwoods Flyer showed in his pictures are later engines than your engine. Your engine has the main drive wheels with open spokes, which indicates it to be an earlier engine. The following photo shows an engine that dates to 1935 and has the open spoke wheels like your engine. In fact, it appears to be an almost identical engine to the one that you have. Note that it only has a single trailing wheel set. This engine is all original and I have not gotten around to replacing the leading and trailing wheels yet. I would recommend that you look closely at the brackets that hold both the leading and trailing wheels on your engine. It may be that just the wheels and axles were replaced and that the brackets that mount to the engine are original. You should be able to tell if the rivets holding the brackets to the motor have been replaced, as in my experience, when they are replaced, they tend not to be steel rivets.
billbarman: Northwoods flyer, Thanks for the Pics! I assumed like most prewar/postwar tooling, they really got their moneys worth out of it. . As in your pics, almost every varriation of this engine I see comes with a back truck... makes me wonder if my version had it replaced with a single wheelset. Who knows.
Northwoods flyer, Thanks for the Pics! I assumed like most prewar/postwar tooling, they really got their moneys worth out of it. . As in your pics, almost every varriation of this engine I see comes with a back truck... makes me wonder if my version had it replaced with a single wheelset. Who knows.
Before you go and change your rear wheel set, consider the following thought. All of the engines that Northwoods Flyer showed in his pictures are later engines than your engine. Your engine has the main drive wheels with open spokes, which indicates it to be an earlier engine. The following photo shows an engine that dates to 1935 and has the open spoke wheels like your engine. In fact, it appears to be an almost identical engine to the one that you have. Note that it only has a single trailing wheel set. This engine is all original and I have not gotten around to replacing the leading and trailing wheels yet.
I would recommend that you look closely at the brackets that hold both the leading and trailing wheels on your engine. It may be that just the wheels and axles were replaced and that the brackets that mount to the engine are original. You should be able to tell if the rivets holding the brackets to the motor have been replaced, as in my experience, when they are replaced, they tend not to be steel rivets.
Ah Ha! Not only is that engine identical in every way, I did check brackets holding the leading nd trailing trucks and confirmed them to be originals. Guess its changed less then I thoguht it had!
Thanks for all the help!
"No childhood should be without a train!"
billbarman Northwoods flyer, Thanks for the Pics! I assumed like most prewar/postwar tooling, they really got their moneys worth out of it. . As in your pics, almost every varriation of this engine I see comes with a back truck... makes me wonder if my version had it replaced with a single wheelset. Who knows.
I noted a recent post about the 3020 locomotives and wanted to post this picture of the earliest version of the 3020 from 1922. There are at least two versions of the 3020 in 1922. The first version, shown here, has extra hand rails over the sand domes on the frame and the motor itself, features the 10-spoke wheels with no steel tires that were found on the pre-1922 1201 and 1218 motors. Additionally, this motor features the early round rod reversing track trip bar. The next variaition of the 3020 had the later style wheels and no hand rails over the sand domes, but still features the round rod reverse bar.
Sorry, I had to break this post into multiple posts as I think there were too many pictures for their system.
The steam enigine from set 1100 and the 1201 motors are pictured below
The odd motor was also installed in a 1201 engine, but featured larger diameter wheels, a larger motor frame, and had both wheels being powered (ie both wheels had gears).
An interesting note about the odd motor that was used in the 1201. This motor appears to be the first motor that used the 12-spoke wheel. I note this because the 1201 and 1218 engines prior to 1922 used 10-spoke wheels, which did not have steel tires and did not have gear hubs on them. The 1201 with the small odd motor has 12-spoke wheels with no steel tire, but a gear hub. The later style motors all featured the 12-spoke wheel with a steel tire and gear hub on them.
These motors are very difficult to repair due to the motor frames being held together by tabs that are part of the motor frame. These tabs were not meant to be taken apart and break very easily. Additionally, the armatures cannot be removed from the frames without taking the idler gear off, which I have found is virtually impossible.
I noted that this thread has overlooked some very interesting engines/motors, which I am guessing is due to their rarity than an oversight. I know that Mersenne referenced the motor from the 1100 set in a previous post and indicated a West Coast collector had written about it in a TTOS article a number of years ago. I would like to credit that person for turning me on to the steam engine and the 1201 that feature this unique little motor.
In 1922 American Flyer introduced the 1101 motor in set 1101 and noted that set 1100 was the same set, but with a steam engine instead of a boxcab electric motor. Below is a scan of the 1922 Flyer catalog showing set 1101.
The very first 1101 engine featured a cast iron frame and a small motor that was very unique in that the armature was fully contained within the frame and the armature contact plates were mounted on the shaft of the armature, instead of being flat against the armature windings. Additionally, only one of the drive wheels featured a gear. This unusual style motor appeared in both the 1101 with cast iron frame and the steam engine in set 1100.
billbarman Hi billbarman, Its nice to see you here again. You are very fortunate to have your grandfather's train. This boxcar dosent have a number stamped on the bottom oddly enough. it just says "INSP 2" Your boxcar is a #3015
Hi billbarman,
Its nice to see you here again. You are very fortunate to have your grandfather's train.
This boxcar dosent have a number stamped on the bottom oddly enough. it just says "INSP 2" Your boxcar is a #3015
As Otis B Drinkwater noted your engine is known as a Type XX and it was fairly long lived in the Flyer catalogs, carrying on into the Gilbert era. The Type XX was offered in a variety of wheel arrangements including 2-4-4, 2-4-2, and 2-4-0. It came with a variety of tenders during its run. Generally you will find the engine referred to as #401, however Flyer had the policy of referring to an engine and tender combination by a completely different number than the number that either the engine or the tender bore. So sometimes the number of the engine will depend on the tender it was sold with. It can be pretty confusing.
Here are a few examples of the Type XX to compare to the one from your grandfather.
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
This is a test post of a photo link of an early 1922 Flyer motor. Sorry if it does not work
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1ce06b3127ccefe2323c5976b00000030O00Abs3DRi0ZtWgPbz4A/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
Otis B. Drinkwater You are better off getting the caboose the next time you are at your relative's house. There were several different wheel arrangements used on these engines. The drive wheels look to be original, with both the leading and trailing wheels appearing to be replaced.
You are better off getting the caboose the next time you are at your relative's house.
There were several different wheel arrangements used on these engines. The drive wheels look to be original, with both the leading and trailing wheels appearing to be replaced.
Thanks again for the info. Does the engine have a product number? It has to... but I cant find it anywhere on it...
wallyworld Northwoods: Two questions to pick your brain.In terms of Chicago production, I am strictly guessing that the two wheel cars ( versus four) were from that facility. What was the last identifiable run of production out of Chicago? Second question ( if I may) what year were the brass journal covers put on the trucks? Apologies if you have answered these previously further back in the thread.Thanks in AdvanceBruce
Northwoods:
Two questions to pick your brain.In terms of Chicago production, I am strictly guessing that the two wheel cars ( versus four) were from that facility. What was the last identifiable run of production out of Chicago? Second question ( if I may) what year were the brass journal covers put on the trucks? Apologies if you have answered these previously further back in the thread.Thanks in AdvanceBruce
In looking at the initial post, I realize that the question relating to Chicago production is likely more about the 6.5 inch enamel cars. There is one identifying feature betweeen the 1937 and earlier cars as compared to the 1938 and after cars. The trucks on the 1938 cars are the black painted type XII trucks, similar to the other freight and passenger cars produced in 1938. The 1939 cars used the same type of trucks, but they were black oxidized finish instead of black paint. I have a boxed 1938 set with the dark trucks with red cars. Additionally, the 1938 cars still retained the decal doors and the 1939 production cars have punched out door windows with no decals for the doors. This is true of both the red and blue 1939 cars.
Thanks for the info. Yeah, after looking on ebay and on a few sites, I kind of thought it might be older. Perhaps it was old stock in the store? who knows.
I have found the matching caboose on ebay, but I'm probably just better off picking up the caboose next time I'm at their house.
Also heres a question open to anyone, did the engine have a different wheel arrangment previously? or maybe a trailing truck? Whenever I find this engine on ebay, it always seems to have a different wheel sets. I cant exactly remember the wheels before we got them replaced. that had to be around 10-12 years ago. I just remember the old ones were rotted way beyond being able use them.
That is a nice set; however, I would suspect that it is a few years earlier than you think. I would guess the set dates to around 1933-1934 due to the tender and air service tank car, which were produced earlier than 1937.
Look on ebay for a matching caboose, just match up the frame style and truck style to the other cars in your set.
Heres my Grandfather's American Flyer set which he recieved in 1937 that has now been passed down to me. The only thing I'm currently missing is the light up caboose that came with it. I wrapped it up with paper and forgot to take it.
We had to have the engines trailing and pilot wheels replaced due to them practically rotting off.
Heres the 3189 tender.
This boxcar dosent have a number stamped on the bottom oddly enough. it just says "INSP 2"
The 3018 air service tanker.
and finally, a 3016 gondola.
I'm very proud to be the owner of this set now. has alot of family history
The last identifiable run of production out of Chicago? The company was sold in early 1938, so the 1937 cataloged line would have been the last cataloged run. However, that leaves a lot to be answered as Gilbert did carryover some of the Chicago production items into 1938, 1939, and 1940.
For instance, the Hiawatha sets were discontinued after 1937. The green streamline cars are definitely Chicago production styling, with the 1938 line seeing the introduction of blue, red, and chrome streamline cars, with only 1 set featuring green cars, likely using up the existing stock. At some point the City of Denver set changes from a darker yellow color to a lighter yellow color, and this appears to likely be in 1938, with these yellow cars also being sold in a special set that included a steam engine instead of the UP engine. For the small 6.5 inch cars, in 1938 they retained the hook style couplers that the earlier production cars had and the larger 9 inch freights getting the curly-cue knuckle type couplers in 1938. These smaller cars had the curly-cue style couplers in 1939 and the larger cars got the link couplers. In 1940 the only chicago production style carryovers were the Yard King switcher set and a streamline passener set.
This carryover of Chicago production also is evident in some of the accessories, with the 97 freight station remaining the same in 1938 and 1939, but then in 1940 it featured the Chicago style building and platform with the gilbert 3/16 crane, which also came with either the early style simulated clay tile lithograph roof or a green crackle painted roof. In 1941, the 612 station set replaces the 97 freight station set.
I believe the last sets featuring a chicago production piece are some of the inexpensive 1941 freight and passenger sets which came with a chicago production style XX locomotive (per greenberg's numbering system) and matching tender on 3/16 scale trucks which was sold with the tin Gilbert freight cars.
As for the brass journal covers, they first appeared in the 1928 line.
Two questions to pick your brain.In terms of Chicago production, I am strictly guessing that the two wheel cars ( versus four) were from that facility. What was the last identifiable run of production out of Chicago? Second question ( if I may) what year were the brass journal covers put on the trucks? Apologies if you have answered these previously further back in the thread. Thanks in Advance Bruce
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
This essentially is my first post to this thread, even though I have followed it on and off for a couple of years. The main reason I have not posted previously, is that I was having difficulty with the computer systems and I was unable to post and I could not figure it out.
However, since I have finally figured it out, I wanted to reach out and say how fascinating that Pre-War American Flyer is due to the number of variations that were made over the years.
I have been collecting Pre-War American Flyer for over 28 years and can remember having postwar S guage trains at the age of 4 or 5.
My interests in Pre-War Flyer include all of the Chicago era trains, with some emphasis on the Gilbert carryover Chicago items and pretty much no interest in Gilbert produced 3/16th scale trains.
It has also been nice to connect with and meet in person with some of the fellow collectors through this thread.
Although the trains are what is of interest to us all, the friendships made through the trains are more valuable to me than the trains. Going to local shows eventually led me to York and on to Cal-Stewart, and finally this year I attended my first TCA Convention. I went just because of a certain layout tour, but it was a great show/convention and I met with several friends and was able to purchase some great Pre-War Flyer at the convention.
6 1/2 inch Enameled Passenger Cars - Correction and Update
A reader of this thread and fellow collector sent an email to me about some incomplete information that I posted in the previous entry. Flyer produced additional 6 1/2 inch enameled passenger cars at an ealier date - other than the ones I posted here . Let me share his email and the information he sent to me.
"I noted your latest post on the CTT thread and wanted to correct one item. You indicate that the 6.5 inch enamel cars were not introduced until 1933. That is not entirely correct. The style of car that you show was not introduced until 1933; however, the 6.5 inch wide-low type 3140, 3150, and 3160 series cars (depending on wheel and light configuration) were introduced in 1930 and were found in sets between 1930 and 1933 or 1934. I would guess you may have some, but if not they are similar to the 3170 series 8.25 inch cars which appeared around the same time. They made these cars in both 4 and 8 wheel versions and in orange, red, green, blue green, and blue and made baggage, coach, and observation cars. The cars also were either lighted or unlighted. They were included in such sets as the New Bluebird, Frontenac, and Texan and came with boxcab and steam engines. The earlier cars featured heat stamped lettering and the later cars came with decals." Thank You for the clarification. I was only thinking of this body style when I made the comments about the years that they appeared and were cataloged. Here are some comparison photos of the Wide/Low profile enameled passenger cars and the cars that I have posted above. From the side they look almost identical
6 1/2 inch Enameled Passenger Cars
American Flyer first cataloged enameled passenger cars in 1933. They were 4 wheel versions. In 1934 the cars were offered with 8 wheel trucks. The enameled passenger cars disappeared from the 1936 and 1937 catalogs, only to reappear in 1938 and again in 1939 when they were cataloged for the last time.
There are 3 styles of car. Lets start with baggage cars.
This is version (E) - or at least close to it.
In the Guide to Pre War American Flyer Schuweiler states that this version has type VII trucks (which I think may be a typo as the photo in the book shows type VIII grey trucks). This example has type VIII trucks which are black. With a little closer inspection it is apparant that a previous owner painted the outside of the trucks black, but left the inside grey. Its a pretty nice job.
Northwoods Flyer
Montgomery Ward Freight Set
Back two entries I posted the above scan of the 1929-1930 Fall/Winter catalog. I went hunting through the boxes under the Blueboard Central to see if I could come up with a reasonable approximation of the Freight set.
This is what I came up with:
From the looks of the catalog artwork all of the cars in the set have Type IV 8 wheel trucks. The interesting thing to note is that Flyer used the Type IV truck in their cataloged sets from 1924 to 1927 (according to Schuweiler). So if the catalog art is correct then Flyer was supplying old stock to Montgomery Ward for their "Nationally Famous Electric Trains" "at lower prices" in 1929-1930. The question is whether the catalog art is accurate. I wonder if Montgomery Ward used their own artwork or if the artwork was supplied by Flyer. The equipment that I have shown here is not part of an original Montgomery Ward set. It is what I have assembled to approximate the set. I have never seen an original set so I'm really going by the artwork - and you will notice none of the freight cars in the catalog art work has any identifying marks. Here are the components: 7010 Steeple Cab
Per the #3020 discussion. If we go back to page 46 of the thread we can see that, as noted, the AF engine is a pretty good representation of the NYC electric as illustrated on the 1925-1927 catalog covers. While it is closer in appearance to the NYC engine I'm sure its visual approximation of an IC electric helped with sales in the Chicago area back when it was the top of the line engine in the O gauge lineup.
7010 & 7011 Catalog picture
Mr. Otis B Drinkwater comes through again. One page back I posted on the #7010 and #7011 sold by Montgomery Ward through their catalog.
Recently Mr. Drinkwater sent me a scan of the page from the Fall/Winter 1929-1930 catalog.
Hi
It's in Museum of Transportation in St Louis and the only example not scrapped. The B variation only had two trucks ( which the C was reconfigured from the B's) There was a later D model whose appearance is bizarre, the body was unchanged ( arch windows, turtle back roof) but had a streamlined cover over the platform. Now I have to find a 3020. The variety of AF electrics is a revelation to me. The IT ran interurban passenger service, electric, steam and and diesel freights. Even a railbus to a streamliner. Ran from St Louis to Danville Ill one of the longer interurban routes, crossed the center width of Illinois east to west. Electric service ended around 1955 and 56. It was merged into NS in the 80's. A pretty unique road.
Wally World,
What a great prototype photo. Where is that engine located?
It may not be an exact replica, but Flyer's 3020 does have two pony trucks with the distinctive sand domes.
It's interesting that the detail of upright sand domes on the extended end platforms on the Wards frame seem to copy an Illinois Terminal Class C electric. I always thought a Class C or B would have been a good tinplate prototype with those arched windows and turtle back roof. An unusual feature. I think some NYC electrics had this same feature of end sand domes..
WallyWorld,
Thanks for the links to the Catalog on eBay and to the article on Nationwide Lines. Its amazing how much information that you can find on the internet with persistance and time.
Steeple Cab - Uncataloged # 7011
The #7011 was also produced for Montgomery Ward and appeared in the 1929-1930 Fall-Winter Catalog. It pulled a consist of Illini cars.
Reference to 7011 here:
http://www.tcaetrain.org/articles/collecting/Nationwidelines/index.html
On Ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1929-30-Montgomery-Ward-Catalog-Fall-Winter-111-/230676676224?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b566be80
Steeple Cab - Uncataloged #7110
American Flyer is well known for putting together sets for special accounts. Perhaps some of the best documented "uncataloged" items were items produced for Montgomery Ward. While the items weren't cataloged in the Flyer catalogs they obviously appeared in the Montgomery Ward catalog. (There is also an entry back a few pages on page 44 about the Nation Wide Lines equipment produced for J C Penney)
The #7110 Steeple Cab appeared in the 1929 and 1930 Ward's Catalog.
I haven't been able to find any copies of the catalogs for those years but this is how Schuweiler describes the set in the Greenberg Guide: "Of the two uncataloged sets offered in the Fall and Winter 1929-1930 Ward catalogs, the first ...features a steeple cab locomotive with four lithographed freight cars..." I'd like to know what those four cars were so I can assemble a set. The number is rubber stamped on the body in 4 places
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