Is there even a railroad there?
You have two of the three. Bellows Falls is almost a match, but not correct. CV did not operate passenger trains there, though CV did operate passenger trains behind RS3s. Chatham is close, too, but, as you say, only two railroads.
You've only used up 54 miles. You have quite a few more to go. The remaining station I'm looking for is completely gone, and disappeared before our current start year of 1967.
Worcester, Springfield, and Bellows Falls:
Worcester: NYNH&H, with RCD's calling regularly, B&A/NYC, again with RDC's calling regularly, and B&M, owning RDCs, but used regularly elsewhere. The same conditions aply at Springfield.
At Bellows Falls, only B&M used RDC's but they did visit Bellows Falls regularly, as replacemnt for the Yankee Clipper Boston - Bellows Falls - White River Junction service. Rutland and Central Vermont did not own RDC's, unless you consider CV and CN essentailly the same railroad. Or did either Rutland or CV own one or more RDCs?
I also thought of White River Junction, but onliy CV and B&M were there. At Wells River you had CP and B&M, but not CV. The Allouiette, where RDC's replaced regular equipment, usually ran with both B&M and CPO eequipment in MU, and ran via Wells River Junction directliy until track between Plymouith and Wells River was abandoned. The one coujld see CP Budds at White River Junction, but theyi were running as a B&M train at that point. Was White River what you had in mind? CP Budd cars were there, but not the railroad itself.
There is Chatham, where like Springfield and Worcester, you had B&M and NYCentral, the latter both the B&A and the Harlem Division. Only the Central ran their Budd cars there in Boston - Albany service. The Rutland also served Chatham, for a while with a pssenger service, pasenger and millk, then a mixed.
Allthe railroads mentioned, CV, B&M, Ruitland, NYC, NYNH&H operated Alco road-switchers inj passenger service at one time or another. I rode behind one Cambridge - MTory, returning on an RDC. the B&M regularly used them Winchendon - Worcester and on the Ambassador through Springfield, Bellows Falls and White River Jn. In the diesel eera, only Alco road-switchers powered Rutland passengfer trains.
So, to sum, Worcester, Springfield, and Chatham.
The railroad conditions: Each station was served by exactly three different railroads, each of which used Alco road-switchers (either RS2 or RS3) on passenger trains serving those stations at some point in the diesel era (that leaves out Washington). At two of the three, all three railroads also owned RDCs, though at one of them only two of the railroads operated RDCs there regularly. At the third, two of the three owned RDCs and operated them there, though one of them only operated them there briefly. Two of the railroads appeared at all three Union Stations.
Just to define what you mean by "served by three railroads: Washington Union Station is obviously out of the runjning, since only the B&O and C&O ever ran RDCs. But would you say that it was only served by RF&P, PRR, and B&O, since Soui and C&O came in on RF&P?
The Mercury engines were K-5b 4915 and 4917 (actually CCC&St.L, body by Beech Grove). As the Mercury fleet expanded, non-streamlined power (including Hudsons) were used as well.
I'm going to go for a Union Station theme.
Three different Union Stations, two of which survive today, all of them within 150 miles of each other. Each of them served three railroads and handled through passenger trains that came in on one railroad and left on one of the others, as well as local trains. In diesel years, all of them saw passenger trains pulled by Alco road-switchers on all three railroads. Two of them were served by three railroads that owned RDCs (though only two showed regularly), one of them by two. Name the three cities and the railroads serving each. Since each one was served by multiple name trains, one through train for each station will do.
As I recall, there was one streqamlined Mercury locomotive, not a Hudson, but a Pacific, and streamlined with the "inverted bathdub" approach of the Rexall Mowhawk and the Commidor Vanderbilt Hudson. Correct me if I am mistaken.
Youi could have mentioned the T-1 EMD B - B power for the Rockeets, styling and general body configuration setting the pattern for the "Bulldog" FTs. I believe these were actually the first streamlined separate locomtives, not "power cars" with baggage sections, ahead of the EAs, but I again I may have my chronoloogy reversed on this
Look forward ot your question.
The Super Chief was actually a bit of a latecomer to the streamlined table. The train's 1936 debut was all heavyweight Pullman, except for the EMC locomotives. The Pullman-built 1937 version followed the Royal Blue, the Abraham Lincoln and Milwaukee's Hiawathas, all of which had full size non-articulated cars. Budd had already built full-size coaches for the Santa Fe as early as 1935 for San Diegan and Golden Gate service.
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll22/id/55055
The Royal Blue and Abraham Lincoln had power cars that were mechanically identical to Santa Fe's 1 and 1A, the Hiawathas had A class Atlantics 1-4 and cars built at MILW's West Milwaukee shops. The ACF-built Royal Blue and Abraham Lincoln's cars were identical to each other, with the Royal Blue train in Aluminum and the Abraham Lincoln in Cor-Ten steel.
While Rock Island's Rockets had separate locomotives, some of the early rocket fleet was articulated in two or three car sets, and all of it was low-profile. Prewar Rocket equipment could be mixed with standard height equipment as happened often in later years.
New York Central's Mercury fleet also predated the Super Chief. NYC had several extra cars (all rebuilt from former commuter coaches, as were the Mercurys themselves) that could be added to expand trains. Mercury power was any NYC Hudson that wasn't busy doing something else.
daveklepper Sometimes Continental is used just to refer to Europe, although obviously Cadadian National had other ideas! So may be the eastbound, SF to Ogden had Continental in its name.
Sometimes Continental is used just to refer to Europe, although obviously Cadadian National had other ideas! So may be the eastbound, SF to Ogden had Continental in its name.
There was an Overland Route train named the Continental Limited, but that is not the train I was looking for.
At this point I will close out this question. The answer I was looking for was:
Oriental Mail - Ogden-San Francisco
European Mail - San Francisco-Ogden
These two trains appeared around mid-1898 as the secondary set of Overland Route trains; at this time the primary trains were #1 & 2, Atlantic Express and Pacific Express.
By mid-1899 the European Mail and Pacific Express were replaced with the Chicago-San Francisco Special and by the following year the only named trains on the SP portion of the Overland Route was #1 and 2, the Overland Limited.
Dave, since you had some of the pieces, go ahead and ask the next question.
You indicated that the Asian and European land masses are correct. The Orient is one other name for the Asian land mass. The Occident is another name for the European land mass. Are you asking me to come up with a third name for the European land mass?
daveklepper Aha! The Orient and Occident, and the Occident and Orient. Was the train or its equipment through-routed with another railroad? Then the SP portion could be as little as SF-Ogden, SF-Tucumcari. Or was it LA-NO? I suppse the name was dropped pretty quickly when it was pointed out that accident and Occident sounded similar, and railway mishaps were much more frequent than now.
Aha! The Orient and Occident, and the Occident and Orient.
Was the train or its equipment through-routed with another railroad? Then the SP portion could be as little as SF-Ogden, SF-Tucumcari. Or was it LA-NO?
I suppse the name was dropped pretty quickly when it was pointed out that accident and Occident sounded similar, and railway mishaps were much more frequent than now.
At this point you mentioned the trains routing: San Francisco-Ogden. As I mentioned in the initial asking of this question, there were through cars, but this is not a factor.
Occident is not a factor in this question either. A form of the word Orient is used in one of the names, but you also need the name of the train going in the other direction.
Now if you will excuse me, I need to post a letter.....
daveklepper The trains ran between San Fracisco and New Orleans, I believe. If it is not "Asia and Europe," then it must be two "land masses." Are they countries or cities
The trains ran between San Fracisco and New Orleans, I believe. If it is not "Asia and Europe," then it must be two "land masses." Are they countries or cities
Only one of the desitnations you mention is correct. Also, I never mentioned that the two land masses you mentioned are incorrect. You have some of the pieces.
daveklepper The Europe and Asia Express and the Asia and Europe Express?
The Europe and Asia Express and the Asia and Europe Express?
Your last couple of submissions have the right geographic areas - but I'm waiting for the correct train names and endpoints.
daveklepper Well, obviously one ormore must have been called the Orient or Asian Express or Limited, or the Far East Express or Limited, or the Hawaiian or Phillipine?
Well, obviously one ormore must have been called the Orient or Asian Express or Limited, or the Far East Express or Limited, or the Hawaiian or Phillipine?
You're on the right track, but you don't have the right name yet.
Another hint: for the other name, look in the opposite direction.
And don't forget the endpoints.
rcdrye Montezuma Special New Orleans-Mexico City (via Eagle Pass/Piedras Negras). Atlantic Limited (Oakland-Denver) through cars to St. Louis. The Montezuma Special was very short lived, the Atlantic Limited was an on-and-off train (usually 9 and 10, numbers later used on the City of St. Louis) that appeared as late as 1922. SPdeM never quite got to Mexico City, and while New Orleans and Houston could be construed as the Atlantic, SP really needed its Morgan Line steamships to get to the "real" Atlantic. The St. Louis Limited (21 and 22) also names a destination SP didn't reach until the 1920s, and then only via Cotton Belt.
Montezuma Special New Orleans-Mexico City (via Eagle Pass/Piedras Negras).
Atlantic Limited (Oakland-Denver) through cars to St. Louis.
The Montezuma Special was very short lived, the Atlantic Limited was an on-and-off train (usually 9 and 10, numbers later used on the City of St. Louis) that appeared as late as 1922. SPdeM never quite got to Mexico City, and while New Orleans and Houston could be construed as the Atlantic, SP really needed its Morgan Line steamships to get to the "real" Atlantic.
The St. Louis Limited (21 and 22) also names a destination SP didn't reach until the 1920s, and then only via Cotton Belt.
Rcdrye, you got the right idea but not the trains I'm looking for. The time period for the sought trains are the end of the 19th Century. The desired names refer to land masses the SP's trains could not physically reach on an all-rail route.
rcdrye ZO, you are up!
ZO, you are up!
At the sunset of the 19th Century, SP fielded a pair of short-lived trains whose individual names evoked destinations to which the railroad could never gain access to, at least as an all-rail route. They were primarily secondary trains, but did carry through sleepers.
The names and endpoints, please.
The other line I was looking for was the Virginian, which used orange and maroon on its wooden equipment, but got Pullman green during USRA operation. In the 1920s it ran some through equipment with the C&O, before retracting to a coach and RPO train each on the Norfolk-Roanoke and Roanoke-Charleston runs.
Sometimes I find things after I make posts... At the time C&O of Indiana carried through C&O cars (and orange paint) C&OofI was using Grand Central, coming off the C&WI onto B&OCT's passenger line at Pullman Junction. C&O switched to Central Station in 1923, using a connector between the C&WI and the parallelling NKP that was removed some time after C&O service was cut back to Hammond in the 1930s.
C&OofI's use of the C&WI (as a tenant) resulted from the C&O sharing ownership with the Erie from Griffith IN to State Line.
So you have the transcontinental route. I didn't specify through cars, so a change at Gordonsville or Charlottesville from the tidewater is acceptable. C&O of Indiana ran over the Nickel Plate's connection to the IC lakefront line, used by NKP to get to their freighthouse until the N&W merger (NKP also serviced C&OofI freight engines at their 95th st roundhouse). The cutback to Hammond for passenger trains was after WWI. So what was the parallel line (to the C&O, since I already gave that away)? In later years less vividly painted cars from this line ran in joint service on the C&O, though not as far as Chicago.
rcdrye For a period before World War I, it was possible to cross the country (except for 1.6 miles in Chicago) on cars painted orange and maroon. Another railroad in the eastern part of the country also adopted orange and maroon during this period, and parallelled but didn't quite connect with the others to allow a cross country trek. Name the connecting railroads, and the one that didn't quite make it. All but one of the railroads went to other color schemes after WWI.
For a period before World War I, it was possible to cross the country (except for 1.6 miles in Chicago) on cars painted orange and maroon. Another railroad in the eastern part of the country also adopted orange and maroon during this period, and parallelled but didn't quite connect with the others to allow a cross country trek. Name the connecting railroads, and the one that didn't quite make it.
All but one of the railroads went to other color schemes after WWI.
Hmm... 1.6 miles. That would be the distance between Union Station and IC's Central Station. Well, from Union Station west you would take Milwaukee Road's Olympian or Columbian with their orange and maroon equipment. From the east, the C&O also had orange and maroon equipment, but through cars to Chicago could be handled via its own C&O of Indiana subsidiary or Big Four, with both lines handling trains to IC's Central Station. I believe there was at least through Washington-Chicago Pullman service via C&O-Indiana at this time.
Technically, the C&O of Indiana operated only to Hammond. To get to Chicago, through trains most likely took the Indiana Harbor Belt and IC to get to Central Station.
Again, you mean all-room sleeping-car service, not all-room trains. All these trains carried coaches.
NP was the only railroad of the four offering Chicago-Seattle cars that had all-room trains. GN did rebuild some of their 7-4-3-1 cars to 7 DupRmt-6DBR-1Cpt cars, but still carried sections at least in the summer up to the late 1960s. I'll try to post another question sometime tomorrow.
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