When the space requested on the Blackhawk was sold out and available on either the Mainstreeter or the Western Star, passengers between the Twin Cities and Chicago would be given that space instead. Presumably, this was space already sold between the Twin Cities and points further west.
So you have left me with the Minstreeter and the North Coast Limited. Of course, the NP had sleepercoaches for economy sleeping and did not need sections. Should have figured that ouit in the first place! The sleepercoaches were in a pool with the Burlington's and would often show up on the DZ running to Colorado Springs, so they saw three railroads, including the D&RGW.
The sleepercoaches were never painted the two-tone-green, white-stripe NP colors but remained stainless steel exposed like the Burlington's.
I must give you the privilege of asking another question if you wish to do so.
Darn it. I rode a sleepercoach on the Mainstreeter. too! Billings - Grand Forks
Olympian Hiawaha carried a 14 section Touralux sleeper. The Blackhawk carried a CB&Q 6 sec 6 rmt 4 DBR car between Chicago and Minneapolis. I'm only concerned here about through service to Seattle. The Western Star carried sections in 7-4-3-1 cars (7dup rmt, 4 sec, 3 DBr, 1 Cpt)
So, I got all six trains right. But did the CoP through sleeper to Seatrtle have open sections?
You are leaving me with four other trains to choose from. I first presumed that the Olympian Hiaswatha might be one.
But that doesn't make sense because it should compete with the Empire Builder, and that requires sections. Of course what you meant by all-room was for the sleeping accomodations onliy. All these trains carried coaches, although I do not believe the City of Portland had a thoough coach to seattle, only a sleeper.
So maybe it is the two secondary trains that had no sections, the Mainstreeter and the Western Star?
At the time, were not they both combined with the Blackhawk between St. Paul and Chhicago? And I do not remember sectdions on the Blackhawk.
Neither of them. Both the CofP and Builder had open sections, the CofP's cars were only a few years old, part of UP's last purchase of sleeping cars in 1956. The Portland Rose lasted until Amtrak, but was mainly a mail-and-express operation between Kansas City, Denver and Portland. By 1960 it no longer carried Chicago sleepers.
All-room: Empire Builder and City of Portland. Other trains, Western Star, North Coast Limited, Mainstreeter, Olympian Hiawatha. I believe the Portland Rose had been dropped by then. If it ever had a through sleeper to Seattle.
In January 1960 there were six trains carrying through sleeping cars from Chicago to Seattle. Sections were available on all but two of the trains. Name the two trains that were private room only. Extra points for naming all six trains!
rcdrye I was in Peachtree last week. One of my sons lives just over the Alabama line, so it's become a pretty regular destination for us. Many proposals for a new Atlanta station, but nothing real. It's kind of hard to say in the context of 1920 or so, but Peachtree (also known as Brookwood) is a couple of miles from Terminal Station, even though it is on a main street that did have streetcar service to downtown. If the train headed west from Peachtree instead of going downtown, as at least some other SRy trains did, then folks getting off the train there can see downtown, as you can today, without being actually there. My guess is that a connecting local was required to get to Terminal Station. I doubt that the modern day elevator had a 1920s equivalent. The stairway to the platform is long. Baggage was handled on the sidewalk of adjacent Deering Road. Trains arriving from the east heading to Birmingham would have to head south at the wye just west of Peachtree to go to Terminal Station, then turn on the wye downtown and return to begin their trip west. All in all that could add quite a bit of time to the train's trip. Today's MARTA bus route 110 mirrors the Georgia Railway and Power Company route 10 that served Peachtree in the past.
I was in Peachtree last week. One of my sons lives just over the Alabama line, so it's become a pretty regular destination for us. Many proposals for a new Atlanta station, but nothing real.
It's kind of hard to say in the context of 1920 or so, but Peachtree (also known as Brookwood) is a couple of miles from Terminal Station, even though it is on a main street that did have streetcar service to downtown. If the train headed west from Peachtree instead of going downtown, as at least some other SRy trains did, then folks getting off the train there can see downtown, as you can today, without being actually there. My guess is that a connecting local was required to get to Terminal Station. I doubt that the modern day elevator had a 1920s equivalent. The stairway to the platform is long. Baggage was handled on the sidewalk of adjacent Deering Road.
Trains arriving from the east heading to Birmingham would have to head south at the wye just west of Peachtree to go to Terminal Station, then turn on the wye downtown and return to begin their trip west. All in all that could add quite a bit of time to the train's trip.
Today's MARTA bus route 110 mirrors the Georgia Railway and Power Company route 10 that served Peachtree in the past.
The article made no mention, as I recall, of local service between the two stations.
You answered two out of three and, since the third point was extremely obscure, you have the honor of proposing another question .
At one time, the Southerner did not stop at Peachtree, but only at the Terminal. Southbound, it headed in and was backed out to the main line; northbound, it backed in from the main line and headed out--until in 1968 and then the coach seats were turned in Atlanta in both directions of travel, and the engine was run around the train. The Kansas City-Florida Special. of course, ran through in both directions, using the H line between Austell and Jesup.
Johnny
Back to Lynchburg. In 1931, the Birmingham Special did carry, between Washington and either Monroe or Lynchburg (no stop shown at Monroe sb; 10 minute stop there nb). These cars were carried between either Monroe or Lynchburg and Chattanooga on a nameless train (nos. 17 & 18)--and this train used the Kemper Street Station, and not the Union Station in Lynchburg. There could have been confusion on the part of passengers as to which station to use, but since the Memphis Special and the Washington-Chattanooga-New Orleans Express (much later, known as the Pelican) also used the Kemper Street statiion, Lynchburgers may well have been in the know. I do not doubt that the crews changed in Monroe and not Lynchburg as was done in later years.
Selma was the place. The train arrived n Selma at 8:40 in the evening, and left at 7:15 in the morning, so it could have provided some sort of meal service.
Peachtree Station, as the timetable names it, was in existence at least by 1917, perhaps even earlier. . What was peculiar about this stop and this train?
Columbus was an offhand guess. For passenger confusion how about skipping Atlanta Terminal Station in favor of a suburban stop (say, today's Peachtree)? Selma gives about a 100 mile run from Birmingham on SR rails. I don't have a topo map but a visual on Google Earth shows a bit of a ridge SE of Akron.
My collection of OGs doesn't go that far back, so I can't confirm either.
rcdrye The original (1909) Birmingham Special operated via Atlanta on the route of today's Crescent. The later route via the N&W and Chattanooga began in 1932. I'm not sure what passengers complained of - the only complaint I found had to do with mishandling a casket. Just an offhand guess would be that the 10 sec Obs would have continued to Columbus, Mississippi.
The original (1909) Birmingham Special operated via Atlanta on the route of today's Crescent. The later route via the N&W and Chattanooga began in 1932. I'm not sure what passengers complained of - the only complaint I found had to do with mishandling a casket. Just an offhand guess would be that the 10 sec Obs would have continued to Columbus, Mississippi.
daveklepper Not by any means to take victory from rc, I think the problem Lynchburg passengers had with the route to Bristol over the N&W was the use of the N&W station in Lynchburg, rather than the Southern Station, given tat they were going to and from Charlottesville, Washingtono, NY, etc. and not to Petersburg and Norfolk. Oftern, going to and from Soui. RR points, including Birmingham, they would depart from one station and return at another.
Not by any means to take victory from rc, I think the problem Lynchburg passengers had with the route to Bristol over the N&W was the use of the N&W station in Lynchburg, rather than the Southern Station, given tat they were going to and from Charlottesville, Washingtono, NY, etc. and not to Petersburg and Norfolk. Oftern, going to and from Soui. RR points, including Birmingham, they would depart from one station and return at another.
The "Midnight Special" lasted until April 30, 1971. It had lost its sleepers and most of its mail some time before that.
In the 1917 and the 1931 Southern Railway System passenger timetables that I have, the Birmingham Special originally had a route that was different from the one familiar to us.
What was it? What problem did some passengers have with it? The train had a 10 section observation car that in 1917 ran Washington-Birmingham--but in 1931 it continued to another city from Birmingham; where did it go?
Deggesty That sounds like the overnight service operated alternately between Chicago and Springfield by the GM&O and the IC, whereby politcally-minded persons could sleep between the capital city (0.6 mile difference) and the Windy City (1.6 mile difference). I would have to dig a 1950's Guide out to see which road offered which accomodation--the accomodations were not the same in 1943.
That sounds like the overnight service operated alternately between Chicago and Springfield by the GM&O and the IC, whereby politcally-minded persons could sleep between the capital city (0.6 mile difference) and the Windy City (1.6 mile difference). I would have to dig a 1950's Guide out to see which road offered which accomodation--the accomodations were not the same in 1943.
GM&O had the 10-2-1 and IC the 12-1. The service lasted until October 1958 when IC dropped the Night Diamond. GM&O carried its car on the Midnight Special, which lasted another 10 years or so. Both trains also carried Chicago-St. Louis sleepers.
That was an interesting question to wrap my head around. The Pullman Company's operations were full of surprises.
Here's another shared Pullman line:
This short (less than 200 miles) but politically important line was served by setout cars on two different carriers on an alternating month basis until one of the two trains involved was cancelled in 1958. One carrier used a 10sec2cpt1DR car, the other a 12sec1DR car. Neither car ran on Saturday nights. The two routes started out at one end about 1.6 miles apart, ended up at the other .6 miles apart, but never crossed. Need the cities, the railroads and the train names.
rcdrye Big Duh to me for trying to make this an all SRS problem... L&N's line from Mobile to Birmingham is 276 miles, so the math works with SR/M&O at 287. L&N's line comes close to, but doesn't cross, Florida's border.
Big Duh to me for trying to make this an all SRS problem... L&N's line from Mobile to Birmingham is 276 miles, so the math works with SR/M&O at 287. L&N's line comes close to, but doesn't cross, Florida's border.
I do not know of any other Pullman line that used two different routes for the travels.
I do no tknow of any other Pullman line that used two different routes for the travels.
No. The Meridian-Birmingham section is shown in the Southern Railway System's's timetable--which leaves another road in the mix. Its route is a little longer than the Southern's route to Mobile.
Using OG's that I have the two-state (down?) route comes to 287 (135 Mobile-Meridian, 152 Meridian-Birmingham).
The listing for Birmingham-Mobile is 264 miles via Bessemer and Wilton. Taking the route via Marion Jct and Akron comes to 282 - about still five miles shorter. Via Anniston is 306. That makes the route via Akron and Marion Jct. the closest match.
rcdrye Deggesty You have the right city pair and one correct route. Yes, the Southern Railway System was pretty well complete in 1920, except for the aquisitions after World War II. The AGS, NO&NE, CNO&TP, GS&F lines are all in the Southern passenger timetable of 1920. If you can, check the mileages on the two routes that you propose. Remember that the car travelled about 11 miles farther going north than it did going south. Then it went via Anniston on the Southern. I'm just eyeballing it on the map, but that would add the extra mileage whie including a reasonable place to transfer a car.
Deggesty You have the right city pair and one correct route. Yes, the Southern Railway System was pretty well complete in 1920, except for the aquisitions after World War II. The AGS, NO&NE, CNO&TP, GS&F lines are all in the Southern passenger timetable of 1920. If you can, check the mileages on the two routes that you propose. Remember that the car travelled about 11 miles farther going north than it did going south.
Then it went via Anniston on the Southern. I'm just eyeballing it on the map, but that would add the extra mileage whie including a reasonable place to transfer a car.
DeggestyYou have the right city pair and one correct route. Yes, the Southern Railway System was pretty well complete in 1920, except for the aquisitions after World War II. The AGS, NO&NE, CNO&TP, GS&F lines are all in the Southern passenger timetable of 1920. If you can, check the mileages on the two routes that you propose. Remember that the car travelled about 11 miles farther going north than it did going south.
rcdrye Mobile - Birmingham Alabama looks like the city pair. Looks like Southern Railway on one side (via Wilton and Bessemer, I would think) , Mobile & Ohio/Alabama Great Southern on the other. Meridian Mississippi would be the junction point. If I remember rightly Southern controlled both the AGS and the M&O in those years.
Mobile - Birmingham Alabama looks like the city pair. Looks like Southern Railway on one side (via Wilton and Bessemer, I would think) , Mobile & Ohio/Alabama Great Southern on the other. Meridian Mississippi would be the junction point. If I remember rightly Southern controlled both the AGS and the M&O in those years.
The single railroad state has been named, but the state with the junction has not been named by a contestant.
The single road swung to the east and then to the west; the joint roads swung to the west and then to the east (the routes were mainly north-south and south-north).
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