Trains.com

Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

856726 views
8197 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
RME
  • Member since
    March 2016
  • 2,073 posts
Posted by RME on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 12:51 AM

Time for a hint:  Canadians were influential in using the operating principle of the locomotive improvement in the 'different context' I mentioned.  They did not, to my knowledge, even try doing what the US railroad in question did (but it would be interesting to find out if anyone tried!)

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 12:06 AM

Steeeee-rike three. You're out!

RME
  • Member since
    March 2016
  • 2,073 posts
Posted by RME on Tuesday, May 9, 2017 11:26 PM

Miningman
The British Railway Standard Class -7 4-6-2's "Britannias"

No.

The answer is NOT any kind of coal pusher whatsoever.  It's a different way of getting the coal pile forward toward the gate locations.

Hint: it does not work the way 'everyone' thinks it does from its usual description.

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, May 9, 2017 10:14 PM

OK...well, heck!

Maybe I can assist with the bonus question.

The British Railway Standard Class -7 4-6-2's "Britannias"

The 3rd batch constructed in 1954 featured a steam powered coal pusher, eliminating the need for crew members to climb the tender and move coal forward. 

RME
  • Member since
    March 2016
  • 2,073 posts
Posted by RME on Tuesday, May 9, 2017 9:57 PM

No, and no.

It is extremely unlikely that the devices used in the first part of the question would have used (or benefited from) separate lubricants supplied in a lubritorium; they would much more likely have been serviced from taps on existing mechanical lubricators on the locomotives in question.

Your air-line thought is intriguing ... but not for the coal-pusher part of the question.  Air would not be blowing coal forward in the tender; imagine the dust!

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, May 9, 2017 7:36 PM

Guessing to see if I'm in the ballpark.

How about N&W lubritoriums for it's steamers, primarily the articulates.. They would have to have been fitted with special nipples and lube points standard on those locomotives that used it. 

As for the coal pusher, think it was done by specially equipped airlines blowing the coal forward. 

Of course I could be way out in left field here. 

RME
  • Member since
    March 2016
  • 2,073 posts
Posted by RME on Tuesday, May 9, 2017 1:43 PM

Here's a two-parter:

A fairly well-known railroad experimented with a system that was supposed to improve steam locomotive efficiency.  During the early years of WWII upward of 80 locomotives were equipped with it, but to my knowledge no other railroads used it, although a very similar approach using different equipment was well established.  What was it, and how was it done?

Meanwhile, the same road was known for a decidedly interesting way to implement the idea of a coal pusher without sliding elements that could damage the coal; the only thing I know roughly comparable to it was a system applied to certain locomotives in England when coal pushers couldn't be made to work.

What was the approach and the railroad involved here?  Extra points for describing the English system...

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Friday, May 5, 2017 6:42 PM

The Sioux City Elevated was built to further a real estate development in Sioux City.  Originally steam powered with Forneys of classic design, it was one of the very first electrified elevated railways - run off of overhead wire in deference to three miles of surface trackage.  Merged into the Sioux City Rapid Transit Co. it was abandoned some time between 1901 and 1903, with the outer end retained as part of the city system, described by someone as a bunch of interurbans within a city.  At least one of the former elevated cars saw further service on one of the suburban lines.  Transit Avenue in the Morningside section of Sioux City remains to this day.

To you, RME!

RME
  • Member since
    March 2016
  • 2,073 posts
Posted by RME on Friday, May 5, 2017 4:14 PM

rcdrye
This city's elevated railroad, which was constructed just like its contemporaries, was early enough to be steam powered, late enough to get electrified, and uneconomic enough to be abandoned before 1905.

Sioux City.

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Friday, May 5, 2017 11:45 AM

IC's K&E line predated CSS&SB predecessor CLS&SB, but never operated its own line.  It's owned now by Anacostia and Pacific, owner of the SouthShore Freight operation.  NICTD leases the K&E, and in turn CSS uses NICTD's line under an operating agreement.

This city's elevated railroad, which was constructed just like its contemporaries, was early enough to be steam powered, late enough to get electrified, and uneconomic enough to be abandoned before 1905.

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, May 5, 2017 10:07 AM

Rcdrye is right, he gets the next question.

Interesting situation with the Kensington & Eastern from prior to NICTD, it's owned by the Illinois Central, who leases it to the Indiana & Kensington, a wholly-owned subsidiary of CSS&SB, who in turn sub-leases it to CSS&SB for operation.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Friday, May 5, 2017 6:12 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH
What is the only commuter rail station inside the Chicago city limits that is NOT served by Metra?

Why, Hegewisch, of course.  On the Kensington and Eastern between Kensington and the Indiana line, it's served by NICTD's South Shore Line.

  • Member since
    March 2013
  • 711 posts
Posted by SD70M-2Dude on Thursday, May 4, 2017 7:59 PM

I see what you did there Wink....  but I don't have a question ready so I'll leave it for someone else.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, May 4, 2017 10:10 AM

I'll take that as a green light to ask the next question.  It may not quite fit the guidelines of this thread, but it is intriguing.

What is the only commuter rail station inside the Chicago city limits that is NOT served by Metra?

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, May 3, 2017 11:01 PM

 Well gentlemen, there's your answer. The D&H units, 8 of them, were leased to the CPR that summer. 

CHHHEGEWISCH was closer to the answer's. Did not want to drag this out too long!

The Demonstrators were painted for UP but they sure got some miles on them before they received them! 

Alco UP 2903_2904 Alco C-630's on CPR and CNR 

 

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, May 3, 2017 10:56 PM

NYC 5303_5332 Alco RS-3 

 

Hiding behind 4210 are 2903-2904 a pair of Alco (UP painted) C-630 demonstrator units with CP dynamometer car 62! 
Units operated from Montreal - Toronto - Windsor May 23rd. returning through London May 24th. to Toronto Yard. 
Then went out west and tested in the Rockies, came back east then went to CNR before delivery to UP. 
CPR demo 5/20/1966 - 6/20/1966 Note: CPR bought 37 units. CNR bought 44 units. 

 

D&H 3015 one of 8 1000 HP Alco's leased to CPR was also present that same day on the shop track. 

 

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, May 3, 2017 6:30 PM

Hint- There were 8 of the 1,000 HP D&H switchers at St. Luc that summer. 

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, May 3, 2017 10:08 AM

I may be a bit off-base here but I would think that the D&H S2's were present to perform any local switching and passenger switching.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, May 2, 2017 10:48 PM

This is the dynamometer car #62 as seen in the photo...still around 1988...was used on steam and diesel. 

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, May 2, 2017 10:45 PM

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, May 2, 2017 9:52 PM

rcdrye- Thanks for pointing out the Drop tank on the NYC RS3's. That was a bonus in the picture that came along for the ride! 

CSSHEGEWICH - The Alco C630's were with the Canadian Pacific for a month. 

In the pictures they have just arrived from Alco and went out the next day May 23rd to Toronto-Windsor returning through London on the 24th to the Toronto Yard. They were then sent out West by CPR and tested in the Rockies. 

Then they came back East! All this lasted until June 20th!...UP still doesn't have 'em cause its someone else's turn now...???

All these Alco's D&H, NYC, CPR, UP ..not an EMD or GE in sight. 

Sometimes life is kind. 

Did any of us have a clue the NYC was near the end and the Penn Central debacle was not that far ahead, or that Alco would call it quits in Schenectady and retreat to it's subsidiary MLW, a mere shadow of it's former greatness,..I don't think so, we were still traumatized by the loss of steam, Baldwin, branch lines galore, hanging on by fingernails with passenger service. Then the 70's hit. 

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, May 2, 2017 5:32 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH- That's half the answer but you are on the right track..expand that a bit as the units went somewhere else still shortly after this..and it resulted in orders! and the D&H units? Maybe not fair to ask as too specific an answer, as in how could you find out or know?  but it is a very simple answer. 

Sorry for the delay in answering. Busy day at work, up to our necks in Mineralogy right now and had 4 high school tours come through on top of it all.

Kids, rocks, microscopes, hand len's and samples everywhere. 

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, May 2, 2017 12:09 PM

Nice shot of the NYC "Drop tank" RS3, the Alco equivalent of the "Torpedo Boat" GP7/GP9.  NYC's attempt to get a little more range out of passenger RS3s by using a larger fuel tank and relocating one of the air reservoirs.  You can see the plumbing for the "Drop Tank" on the 5332 as well.

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, May 2, 2017 10:18 AM

Now that we can see the dynamometer car, I would suggest that the C630's were leased to MLW for demonstration service on CP.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, May 2, 2017 9:08 AM

Sorry rcdrye..incorrect on both. Nice try though.

The C630 is right however. 

Here is another clue.

 

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, May 2, 2017 6:46 AM

Nothing strange about it at all.  UP taking delivery of C630s from Alco, D&H moving them from Schenectady to Montreal, CP delivering them to UP in Kingsgate, Idaho.  Probably tax advantages compared to receiving them in other states.

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Monday, May 1, 2017 9:05 PM

Well ok, was not really prepared to ask a question but I can throw a softball out there. 

What the heck is going on in this picture? We are in Montreal, St. Luc Yard, 1966.

Eh?

  • Member since
    March 2013
  • 711 posts
Posted by SD70M-2Dude on Monday, May 1, 2017 5:27 PM

The skytops were also briefly used on #5 & #6, the (unofficially named) "Rupert Rocket" between Jasper and Prince George/Prince Rupert (for a time the full train only went as far as P.G. and through passengers changed to an RDC).  I never have understood why CN didn't just add a rear door similar to what CP's Budd-built "Park" cars have, but maybe they thought it wasn't worth keeping specialized round-ended observation cars in service, with the VIA takeover of passenger service on the horizon by then.   

The next question belongs to you Miningman.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Monday, May 1, 2017 12:57 PM

The remaining intact(-ish) Skytop car Coffee Creek seems to be in Iowa Pacific's possession. Two of the Rapids cars are intact, with Cedar Rapids belonging to the Friends of the 261 group.

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Monday, May 1, 2017 12:37 PM

That must be the Milwaukee Road skytop lounges and sleepers, built 1947-48 for the new Olympian Hiawatha. The train was discontinued in 1961 and the cars were later sold to Canadian National, who was in a full blown revitalization attempt of passenger service. I believe they went on CN's train the  "Ocean". 

They had to be pulled due to government regulations requiring a "back door", a secondary means of egress. 

SUBSCRIBER & MEMBER LOGIN

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

FREE NEWSLETTER SIGNUP

Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter