In 1917, the Wabash had passenger service from Chicago to Detroit, New York, and other points to the east.
Johnny
Johnny has the correct answer. Wabash entered from the southwest (toward St. Louis) at Belt Junction, from the east on its freight-only line to Montpelier Ohio at State Line (reached via the B&OCT from Clarke Junction in northwest Indiana). Connecting railroad was the Chicago and Western Indiana, of which Wabash was a part owner. Wabash offered mixed train service east of Gary as late as the 1950s.
CNS&M entered Chicago at the same point on both lines, at Howard Street. CNS&M ownership on the Shore Line ended at the Laurel avenue junction with the CM&St.P in Wilmette, on the Skokie Valley at the junction just east of Chicago Avenue in Evanston.
Wabash may be right, but the Chicago North Shore and Milwaukee, believe it or not, was classified by the ICC as a Class One, because of its revenues. And it entered Chicago (Howard Street was the City Line if I am not mistaken) over the tracks of the Chicago Rapid Transit, later the CTA, from the west, the Skokie Valley Line over the rapid transit tracks of the Dempster Street shuttle line; and from the north, the Shore Line, over the rapid transit tracks of the Evanston-Wilmett line. Doesn't this count?
Wabash, from St. Louis and Detroit?
I went back and looked at the dates. The first conversion PCC L cars arrived in 1953, the last in 1959, with parts from cars dismantled in 1958. St. Louis Car "bought" each streetcar for $14,000 from CTA before stripping it for parts. Motors and controls were Westinghouse or GE, depending on the parts pool. The last four cars delivered, "high speed" single unit cars 1-4, were given special non-PCC control systems that had been tested earlier on a married pair from the first, non-conversion order.
So here's another Chicago item. Several railroads entered Chicago from more than one direction, C&NW and CMStP&P from three each, IC, PRR and NYC from two each. Another, smaller class I entered Chicago from two different directions, connecting via the tracks of another railroad.
You are correct, with some of those cars in-service only seven years, and they were the largest, and highest capacity, on-street PCC cars ever built in Norh America. (Brussels has and may still have some double-articulated four-truck PCC cars.) Two-man, rear loading, three people could board at once, exit at the middle or at front. Could really move a crowd.
Look forward to your question!
Other short-timers were Vancouver and Montreal, about 13 years each.
There was a lot of competition for the title of most-wasted PCC conversion. Chicago scapped the bodies of almost 600 PCC streetcars built between 1947 and 1949 between 1956 and 1959, pooling the parts to build 570 PCC-control L cars between 1957 and 1960. The trucks, controls and some door aand window parts were all that were re-used.
Apparently, no one was interested in doing the reasonably simple research to answer this question. A look at a 1945 map of the subway and elevated system would show that there are two Bronx Park stations, one a branch of the 3rd Avenue elevated (before June 1940 also served by 2nd Avenue elevated trains during rush hours), and one the north end of 7th Avemue Express subway service at 180th street. The euphamistically-termed "sold-state destination indicators," were exactly the same for the subway cars and elevated cars for the two services, just metal bars painted black on both sides with white lettering on both sides. Neither station remains today. When Lexington Avenue Express service was rerouted (except for some five or six rush hour trains) from 241st Street and White Plains Avenue to Dyre Avenue on the old NYW&B RoW, the 7th Avenue Express took over the service to 241st & WPA. (The subway system has used the word road, White Plains Rd. for years, but in The Bronx it is called Avenue.) The short spur, the orginal northern end of line, opeend first by 2nd Avenue elevated trains before the tunnels under the Harlem River were complete and in service, from the junction just north of 177th Street West Farms Square station, was demolished.
The 1945 map also shows two subway 7th Avenue stations. In 1945, the one in Manhattan at 53rd Street and 7th AVenue was served by the E on one set of tracks, the north set on both levels, and across a single island platform on both levels by the D and BB. Prior to the opening of the Sixth Avenue subway, the south pair of tracks were not used. The one in Brooklyn was on Eastern Parkway and served by Brighton Locals ("1," usually articulated D-types) and Brighton Expresses (usually steels, two As,single units and two Bs, three-car units, during rush hours). But after 1967, with the Christie Street connection, 53rd and 7th in Manhattan was served by the E, D, and B (no longer BB), and Eastern Parkway and 7th was served by the Q, Brighton Express, QB, weekend and night Brighton semi-local, and the D local in Brooklyn (This may have been switched around on occasion.) For the last several years, service at this Brooklyn Station has been the Q, full-time via-Bridge local, and the B on weekdays, express in Brooklyn and on 6th Avenue, local on Central Park West and in Washingtib Heights. The B stops at both. The D did for a while.
But a wise pe;rson could have pointed out that South Ferry on the elevateds, at one time 9th 6th, 3rd, and 2nd, and the subway South Ferry station below, were also two separate stations, again using the same "soid-state destination indicators."
So, my replacement question is: Which North American PCCs had the very SHORTEST passenger carrying career before being removed from streetcar service completely with most material going to scrap.
would you like another question? Should it be outside the NYCity area?
In the historoy of subway services in New York City, subsay service was abandoned to some local IRT stations when neighboring express stations had their platforms extended and/or new entrances. When the 94th Street entrance wa opened at the 96th Street and Broadway station, the 91st Station stopped having service. !9th Street and 4th Avenue is another case, and there may be a few others. Discontinued track use includes the possibly temporary end of passenger service between Broad and Nassau Street thourgh "Nassau Cut" tunnel to Clark Street on the tunnel route between DeKalb in Brooklyn and Whitehall Street in Manhattan, last used by the M when it ran to 9th Avenue in Brookliyn instead of up 6th Avenue and over to Forest Hills, Queens. The Court - Hoyt shuttle is another. The outer part of the Jamaica Elevated structure was replaced by the Archer Avenue subway's upper level. The Culver line was removed beween Ditmas and 9th Avenue in Brooklyn. The of course the old South Ferry loop stiation was replaced by the present stub-end terminal. I think this oovers all tracks used by subway trains, except for one of the pairs of stations that I am looking for. Can someone answer the question or should I ask another?
Just compare a 192-1949 map with a current map, and get the answer to both pairs.
The pair that exists is on the B Division, and the pair that does not exist was an IRT pair, both on elevated structure. One for its life was used only by elevated trains, and the other was opened by elevated trains and then these operated rush hour only with subway trains providing full-time service and then no service and abandonment, one of the very few cases of a subway service being abandoned. (The Court Street - Hoyt-Shemerhorn shuttle is the classic example with the Court Street station now the Transit Museum, underground.)
Does not somebody have access to a current subway and a WWII-era subway-elevated map for New York? With the two maps it is a simple question to answer.
Hint: For a short time, the same general type of equipment visited both of the stations with the same name that no longer exist. And for a very short time, trains to both these stations shard the same tracks. And both stations were terminal stations in the same borough. And not far from each other, as shown by Dad's and my Sunday strole.
The second hint: The two stations with the same name that exist today have been around for well over 70 years. For about half that time they were served by different routes that never shared the same tracks. Then there was a change, and a full-time service stopped at both stations. But now the service that serves both stations is not quite full-time. In all cases, both stations were served by more than one route. And there were a few years after opening where one of the stations had only half its potential in actual use.
I am going to play a New York City card. Part One: The present subway system has two stations with the exact same name, and one route stops at both of them. Name the stations and the current route that stops as both of them.
Part Two: In addition, up to sometime after WWII, the overall system had an additional two stations with the same name (not the same name as in Part One). This case doesn't exist today. On a typical Sunday, Dad and I would use both these stations, walk from one to the other, and enjoy two of the still-existing sites that make New York a better place. And both going to one of these stations and returning from the other, we would see the station name inside whatever car we riding. And the equipment to one station was different than the equipment to and from the other.
Again, the first pair still exists and is linked by a route, and the second pair, very different in two ways, no longer esists.
Good to have you back, Dave! Yes, I was looking for the Winona. After the Chicago, South Bend and Northern Indiana cut back from Goshen to Mishawaka in 1934, the Winona left the wires up for a couple of years before buying two LP-gas locomotives from Plymouth Locomotive Works. The two they get were one 65-ton centercab with two diesel-cycle engines set up to run on propane, and one six axle industrial-type that seems to have had a mechanical transmission. The Flexomotive, with direct drive and planetary gear transmission driving side rods, followed in 1939. The Flexomotive may have run on LP as well, but nothing I've found says for sure. All of them were sold off by early 1945, when Winona got a pair of GE 44-tonners, which ran on diesel fuel.
Plymouth designated the 65-ton 707 as mode PE (similar diesel units were model OE). The six-axle 701 was a WLB of 30 tons. The Flexomotive had two axles and weighed 45 tons.
The southern interurban connection was at Peru with Union Traction, whose operations were folded into the Indiana RR. The Winona cut back to Warsaw in the late 1930s, to its primary interchange with the Pennsylvania.
Just a wild guess. Was it the Winona? With Northern Indiana Traction being the western connection and Indiana Raiilway, formerly Union Traction, at the south?
Wrenching the quiz forum back around...
This north-south interurban that formed a key link in east-west connections "dieselised" after its western connection closed with a variety of interesting power, including at least one LP-gas powered unit, and later acquired a side-rod unit with a planetary gear transmission.
Part iii
4221 (t.i. 4044) MLW 8485910/1965. Phil Mason Toronto Yard June 27, 1968
...continued...this one for NDG and all Alco fans.
on The Dominion near St.Eugene, Ontario.
Brand new C-424 4204 at St.Luc. MLW 84842 3/31/1965 CPR/Steve Morris Collection Note headlights with glare shields on cab later (see 4221 below) located on nose.
MLW C-424
2400 HP 75 MPH
Note: All 51 of these units were built with Trade-In Alco/MLW FA, FB and RS units.
8300 (re# 4200 4/1965) C-424 2400 hp MLW #84413 4/1963 This was the only 8300, all others were delivered starting two years later as DRF class 4200's. It was the only unit built with square fuel tank and other minor body details. Compare to 4201. It was remanufactured by MLW with components from RS-10 8474 wrecked January 7,1962 on
A quick look at Alco manual TP-454A (for the Century 430/630) shows a toilet (item 45) located in the short hood.
Even if a 'bucket' weren't provided at the factory, providing something in the appropriate location would not be rocket science ... once the more-critical problems with Anglo operability had been addressed.
Certainly N&W got relatively long use out of them as normal units.
There was more than Spanish lettering on the controls that relegated Wabash B900-B906 to booster status. I believe that they also lacked toilets, which may have violated labor agreements.
Like a lot of railroads that dieselized quickly, Wabash had power from several builders in the first generation, with Alco, FM and EMD road units, of which EMD units made up by far the biggest block.
Early second-generation power included eight GP35 and 15 U25B units. The C424s must have been fire-saled by Alco. They were also the only 251-powered units on the Wabash. I'm sure there was a plan to replace or relabel the controls, but the merger (actually lease) got there too soon, and N&W had more important things to worry about.
Alco provided steam generator space on the C630-C636, though it was never used. Only the C420 (LIRR, MON) had space set up for one. GE did the same, leaving space on the UxxC line but not the UxxB line, used by AT&SF in their U28CG and U30CG power. EMD either put on a back porch S/G (SDP35/40/45, GP40P) or used the short hood space (GP30B, NdeM GP35) like in the early GP series.
OK thanks for the informative and complete answer.
Always had a soft spot for the C424's...good looking well proportioned locomotive that was a welcome break from GP7's and 9's.
Saw a fella kicking cars around in Burlington some time ago with a 424 and was taken back at how quickly he could start, stop and zip around with it.
I suspect a factory 'relabelling' would have required an extensive amount of work for which Alco would have to be paid. Treating them as B units saved that money and time.
In any event, Wabash ran them a comparatively short time -- B904, for example, built in March 1964 was conveyed to N&W upon the merger in October 1964 (by which time one of them had already been wrecked). N&W initially renumbered them from Bxxx to 3xxx, then to a series in the 420s, and somewhere along there fitted them up as normal locomotives.
425 has actually survived into preservation as Delaware Lackawanna 2409.
To my knowledge, although some Mexican and Canadian C424s ran in passenger service, none were built with steam generators (this in fact being a reason the C424/425 were so much shorter than the LIRR C420s) and I don't think Wabash ran them in anything but freight service.
A few follow up questions if you do not mind...Why did they simply not change out the labelling on the controls at Alco before they were delivered to Wabash...is it that big of a deal with the factory right there?
Did they eventually change the controls to English labelling and lose the "B unit" status?
Did they use these units on the Cannonball as a B unit? Don't think the Cannonball and the C424's co-existed that long.
Suppose Speedy Gonzalez is 100% politically incorrect these days. Too bad, it was harmless, fun and a very good character. They still run "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" occasionally on some late night movie channel which actually does set the image back a hundred years.
Now that is quite the tale!
Wabash got seven C424's that were originally built for NdeM (8100-8106) just before the N&W lease in 1964. The controls were all labelled in spanish, so they couldn't be used as lead units. Wabash numbered them B900-B906.
NdeM eventualy got replacement units after cancelling the original order, eventually acquiring 45 units 8100-8144.
rcdryeCould we take this onto another topic and return to the "pop quiz" format?
Yes; it's essentially dead. One last call for the B units - I'll give it away: Wabash was the railroad. Who knows -- quien sabe -- the story?
Both the steam items were covered in Sagle & Staufer's B&O Power. The tender 'pusher' was arranged with a hydraulic lift that raised the whole coal bunker to tip the coal forward, I presume on a hinge at the front since an articulated linkage like a contemporary coal truck would raise the bunker far too high and cause all sorts of clearance fun if it came loose or didn't lock down completely or properly. The stoker was arranged with elevators 'either side' of the barrel at the throat from a common screw running, they said, under the ashpan. I presume there was some operating arrangement made to keep the coal in that section from dwelling long enough to start cooking off; the effect of tramp iron or rock jamming the worm or one of the elevators might produce some highly interesting linguistic excursions. On the other hand, with no 'heel' necessary at the back of the grate, a light hot fire might have been remarkably easy to carry, as would relatively smokeless and perhaps low-ash operation.
Duplexes were usualy set up to feed about mid-height on the rear of the firebox. I suppose a set of duplex screws could be run in the ashpans to feed the front of the firebox... Probably room above a Delta trailer to do that, unless it had a booster.
Could we take this onto another topic and return to the "pop quiz" format?
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