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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, August 31, 2017 4:10 AM

I am referring to a single-truck car only.  Capitol Transit had lots of "double-truck Birneys," some ex-Providence, and mostly used on the Roselyln - Benning line as short-turns, running rush hours almost all on conduit, between the crossover near the power plant and a crossover in Georgetown near the carhouse.  The term "double-truck Birney" was first a railfan term for double-truck lighweights without the usual tapered ends.  It was NEVER used officially until the modern "Birney replica" cars started being built.

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Posted by narig01 on Wednesday, August 30, 2017 6:54 PM

daveklepper

Only one Birney car ever was equipped for conduit, and it kept its trolley poles.  All other Birneys of this system were either sold for use elsewhere, for a time leased to another company, and then scrapped, while this car continued in operation until well after WWII, used as long as any part of the system continiued in opertion.  Modifications at the time it received the ability to pick-up power from conduit reduced its used as a passenger csrrier, but it was a fantrip car on one occasion.

What, who, where?    Number?

 

Found this:  http://www.birney-trolley.org/images/DC_Capital_DT_516.jpg

A double truck Birney, 516,  Washington DC.

What I can not decipher is what company.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, August 30, 2017 2:08 PM

Only one Birney car ever was equipped for conduit, and it kept its trolley poles.  All other Birneys of this system were either sold for use elsewhere, for a time leased to another company, and then scrapped, while this car continued in operation until well after WWII, used as long as any part of the system continiued in opertion.  Modifications at the time it received the ability to pick-up power from conduit reduced its used as a passenger csrrier, but it was a fantrip car on one occasion.

What, who, where?    Number?

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, August 30, 2017 11:47 AM

Close enough.  Except in the early years (before WW I) D&H was not involved except as a trackage rights host. D&H owned the track from Saranac Lake to Lake Placid, the remnant of a line that looped around through the woods from just south of Plattsburgh, approaching Saranac Lake and Lake Placid from the west.  NYC's Adirondack Division had a short branch from Lake Clear Jct., just west of Saranac, to Saranac to connect to D&H's line.  NYC apparently had some ownership rights, as Lake Placid was a "Union Station" even after D&H stopped operating there.

Various NYC trains would bring Pullmans to Utica from points east and west, and the Adirondack Division trains would haul them up to Lake Placid.  Then as now, Lake Placid was an all year round resort.  The last NYC passenger trains ran around 1960, the last PC freight in 1970.  The line was briefly re-opened during the 1980 Lake Placid Olympics by the Adirondack Railway.  The track is still intact, but a court fight over lifting the rail between Saranac Lake and Lake Placid continues.

D & H map

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, August 30, 2017 9:48 AM

Lake Placid:  Leave Grand Central on the N. Y. Central to Troy, then D&H to Saranak Lake (?), then N. Y. Central tracks from there to Lake Placid.  Also through sleepers from Boston.  Possibly also from Weehawken via the West Shore and Albany.  The Schenectity connection to the D&H may have been used, also by sleepers from midwestern points.  The Central ran from Utica, as the current Adarondak Scenic does, but all the way to Montreal, with a branch to Saranak Lake (?) and a connection to the D&H there, running through Lake Placid.  At one time the D&H had its own branch to Lake Placid.

I ought to Google the Central map and see if Saranac Lake was the name of the connection point.   Anyway, the route from GCT was NYCentral - D&H - NY Central.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, August 29, 2017 6:39 AM

This resort town, which had both Winter and Summer Pullman service from several cities well into the postwar era, was reached over tracks belonging to a railroad which had abandoned its own line there.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, August 28, 2017 1:18 PM

Fact checking again...  Sometimes I have to "go to the books" and can't get the info I want on line.  I'll post something this evening.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, August 28, 2017 11:05 AM

Waiting for your question

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, August 27, 2017 6:15 AM

Also, there were more miles of broad guage than standard.   Go to it.

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, August 25, 2017 7:10 AM

I think if I remember right most of the standard gauge lines were in the unpaved "neutral ground" and almost all of the broad gauge lines were in the street.  A no brainer in terms of the cost of making everything the same.  NORTA made the same decision with the riverfront line a few years ago.

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Posted by RME on Thursday, August 24, 2017 7:34 AM

I suppose to have commonalty with the other lines on the system, considering the substantial investment in seven new cars.   (Didn't we have a thread a few years ago about this?)

Did we not get the ex-Melbourne cars from that line right here in Memphis?  (Our Riverfront line is achingly standard-gauge, being in large part on one of the two ex-IC tracks...)

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, August 24, 2017 4:47 AM

Very pleased that both stainless steel Pershings were saved.  And RC has the answer, or most of it, but why was the broad-gauge chosen and not the standard gauge? Simple answer.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, August 22, 2017 8:50 AM

9908 is at NTM in St. Louis.  It was the only power car that was factory powered with a 567 engine (though others later got them).  EMC considered it a model "AA" similar to MP's modified E6 units.

 

New Orleans had both 5'2 1/2" and 4' 8 1/2" lines.  Up until fairly recently the Carrolton barn used by St. Charles Ave cars had dual-gauge track in the pavement.  All of the standard gauge lines were gone by the time NOPSI took over in 1923.  Some of the cars were sold to other systems, some were re-gauged (and largely used as work cars).

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, August 22, 2017 2:47 AM

If he power car was scrapped and not saved, a real tragedy.  Thanks for the General's biography.

Name the southern city that has had streetcar service since the nineteenth century but once had such service with two different gauges.  Name the city, the two gauges, and which survived and why, and what happened to the streetcars of the guge that did not survive.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, August 20, 2017 8:21 AM

General Pershing?

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Posted by wanswheel on Saturday, August 19, 2017 11:40 AM

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Posted by wanswheel on Friday, August 18, 2017 11:00 AM

The man the train was named for was still alive, and though long dead now he is still totally famous.

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Posted by wanswheel on Thursday, August 17, 2017 11:09 AM

Tom Tabor was well enough known, evidently, but hardly famous if I never heard of him. Thanks for the education.

Excerpt from Block Line, Oct. 1981

Hoboken terminal hosted the trains operated by the Erie and Lackawanna railroads until the two merged on October 17, 1960 to become the Erie- Lackawanna Railroad. Effective that date, all the trains were E-L trains, but even today railroaders refer to trains as being on the "Lackawanna" side or "Erie" side. On the merger date, the president of the DL&W, Perry Shoemaker departed Hoboken in his private car #99 for the last time en-route to the new E-L headquarters in Cleveland. According to Tri-State Charter member Tom Taber, every whistle in the yard blasted loudly as a salute to Mr. Shoemaker and what he did for the railroad, a touching finale he never forgot. A similar experience occurred shortly after Tom Taber's death in May 1975 when the E-L management dedicated train #629, the "Tom Taber Express". This train had the distinction of being the only named train in New Jersey. Upon the first run of this train, a large banner was placed on front of the 629, the fastest electric train operating in New Jersey! As the eight car train departed Hoboken on its maiden run, every whistle on every locomotive, switcher, and electric screamed a loud and long blast to the memory of Tom and the first train named in his memory. It was an experience that touched everyone present in Hoboken that day and one the author will never forget.

http://hoboken.pastperfectonline.com/archive/43DDF139-A299-4F03-9E8F-594326760960

There's an online book by Tom Tabor's son, who is also named Tom.

http://books.northwestern.edu/viewer.html?id=inu:inu-mntb-0005793607-bk

http://tabermuseum.org/about-us/our-history/about-thomas-t-taber

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:35 AM

Tom Taber Express...just a guess.

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Posted by wanswheel on Wednesday, August 16, 2017 7:02 PM

Actually Dan’l Webster the frog! is getting warmer in the pot, if the right alternate conclusion is jumped to.

Remember, it’s somebody born later than James Whitcomb Riley (1849).

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, August 16, 2017 2:43 PM

DeWitt Clinton ?- naw, he was a canal guy.

Dan'l Webster ?- naw, he was a frog.

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Posted by wanswheel on Wednesday, August 16, 2017 10:40 AM
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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, August 16, 2017 10:01 AM

James Whitcom Riley?

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Posted by wanswheel on Tuesday, August 15, 2017 3:16 PM

What train was named for a famous man who was practically born on a railroad?

 

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Tuesday, August 15, 2017 1:15 PM

wanswheel

Excerpt from Railway Age Gazette, Oct. 27, 1916

https://archive.org/stream/railwayage61newy#page/766/mode/2up

The Chicago & Alton put two new westbound express trains into service on October 16. The San Antonio Limited leaves Chicago at 10:15 a.m. and arrives at St. Louis at 5:59 p.m., where close connections are made with the St. Louis, Iron Mountain & Southern and the Missouri, Kansas & Texas for points in the Southwest.  The Creve Coeur Special leaves Chicago at 5 p.m. daily and arrives at Peoria at 9:20 p.m.

 

Wanswheel, you got the answer.  The southbound-only Chicago-St. Louis San Antonio Limited replaced the slower Prarie State Express and was scheduled to provide close connections to MP and MKT trains to Texas.  Supposedly, naming the train after a Texas destination it did not directly reach may had been a marketing tactic to attract Texas traffic.  At the time, a passenger had the choice of a number of railroads besides the Chicago & Alton to get to St. Louis, including IC, Wabash and C&EI.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the San Antonio Limited had a short life, becoming a victim of a national trend of constant cutbacks in passenger train mileage that began in 1917.  The train was discontinued in Spring 1918, replaced by a rescheduled and slower running Alton Limited.

Wanswheel, you get the next question.

 

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Posted by wanswheel on Tuesday, August 15, 2017 11:47 AM

Excerpt from Railway Age Gazette, Oct. 27, 1916

https://archive.org/stream/railwayage61newy#page/766/mode/2up

The Chicago & Alton put two new westbound express trains into service on October 16. The San Antonio Limited leaves Chicago at 10:15 a.m. and arrives at St. Louis at 5:59 p.m., where close connections are made with the St. Louis, Iron Mountain & Southern and the Missouri, Kansas & Texas for points in the Southwest.  The Creve Coeur Special leaves Chicago at 5 p.m. daily and arrives at Peoria at 9:20 p.m.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Sunday, August 13, 2017 9:10 PM

daveklepper

The Chiago and Alton handled through cars for the Missiouri Pacific (Missouri Pacific - Texas Pacific), the St. Lous - San Francisco (Frisco), and the Misouri Kansas Texas (Katy), even if travelers during this period had to change to the connecting train(s?).  It ay be logical that the train name you are looking for involves a Texas city.  Without OG's of the period, the train was probably named for the most populous Texas city, which would be the destination for most through riders.  Like the PRR calling its second (first being the Spirit of St. Louis) NY - St. Louis train the Penn Texas.  So, Dallas Limited? Dallas Flyer?  Dallas Special?   Or are we talking about through cars to Mexico?  The Alton train itself, like its predicessor and follower, ran Chicago - St. Louis.

 

You're on the right track, but through cars are not involved with this train.  Dallas is not the city.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, August 13, 2017 9:04 AM

The Chiago and Alton handled through cars for the Missiouri Pacific (Missouri Pacific - Texas Pacific), the St. Lous - San Francisco (Frisco), and the Misouri Kansas Texas (Katy), even if travelers during this period had to change to the connecting train(s?).  It ay be logical that the train name you are looking for involves a Texas city.  Without OG's of the period, the train was probably named for the most populous Texas city, which would be the destination for most through riders.  Like the PRR calling its second (first being the Spirit of St. Louis) NY - St. Louis train the Penn Texas.  So, Dallas Limited? Dallas Flyer?  Dallas Special?   Or are we talking about through cars to Mexico?  The Alton train itself, like its predicessor and follower, ran Chicago - St. Louis.

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