Trains.com

Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

856722 views
8197 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Monday, September 18, 2017 6:50 AM

The Texas Zephyr ran to Dallas from the beginning.  It never served Houston directly, passengers were handled on the Texas Rocket or Sam Houston Zephyr.  Besides, the route was the same from the trains start to its end.  The MP trains lasted longer than most, with massive downgrading not beginning until 1967 or so.

Both the train I'm looking for and the one whose business it hurt were operated by other railroads.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 18, 2017 3:52 AM

The Q's Texas Zephyr, which gave direct service to Dallas via a new cutoff, with the main section headed to Houston via Fort Worth.  I rode it once, to get the test equipment back to Cambridge without paying shipping charges and with my personal supervision after the opening of Jones Hall in Houston in 1966.  There was no limit on carry-on baggage in those days.  And Parmelie did do the job in transferring to the New England States to Boston.  The Dallas section was still in operaion at the time, with both coach and sleeper service.  I forget the name of the junction.

I suppose business was taken from the second Missouri Pacific train, but the Texas Eagle did continue to provide competion Chicago - Houston via St. Louis.

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, September 17, 2017 7:11 PM

This postwar train, which served the first and fifth largest cities in Texas, gained strength as a new line was opened in the mid 1950s to allow direct service to the state's third largest city.  Enough patronage was generated to hasten the end of another famous Texas train.  Service on this line ended a few years before Amtrak, but the train itself survived into the Amtrak era.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Friday, September 15, 2017 12:46 AM

Yes, but not only computer control, but full automatic operaton after the operator manually closes the doors and presses start.  The very first that worked reliably, applied to the entire fleet.

Bill Vigrass was the chief engineer for the project and remained as chief of operaions.  He returned to supervise the major rebuilding after rertirement.

During the testing period, at night, when it could be preumed there would be no tresspassers or anything, one night they actually ran trains back and forth with nobady on board, just one person at 8th and Chestnut and one at Lindenwald pressing the close door and start buttons through the cab window!  Or so I was told.

And, at the present time, they are the oldest North American rapid transit cars still operating, with the exception of New Yorks' R32s.    But both Budd designs, although some of the PATCO cars may have been built by GE.

Look forward to your question.

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, September 14, 2017 4:07 PM

Are you looking for the original cars on the Lindenwold High Speed Line?  They seem to have survived multiple rebuildings.  This was also one of the first designs with computer control features.  The Lindenwold end has built up quite a bit since the line opened, but at the time was fairly suburban.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, September 14, 2017 1:15 PM

These are defined as rapid transit cars.  But the route does combine typical subway operation with typical open-air suburban operation and is a city-to-suburbs line.  The cars were similar to the largest order of post-WWII commuter equipment, and were prototypes for that equipment with regard to general consruction, construction material, inside-frame trucks, and door locations.  The computer equipment did not duplicate the innovation, which was 100% successful on this line, but has had some problems when implemented elsewhere in a minority of cases, but well-known cases.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, September 12, 2017 1:23 PM

Should I give the answer and ask a different question?

 

Here is a hint.  The route used by these cars:  On part they were second generation equipment, but on the other part depends on what you definte as new.   Could be first generationt here.   Maybe 3rd 4th or 5th.   For the owner of the cars, all 1st generation.   Total route was never under one ownership until about the time these cars were ordered.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 11, 2017 9:13 AM

Further hint needed?

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 10, 2017 10:46 AM

Cleveland:  I thought that was what you had in mind as the other subway, but should it really be called a subway?   If memory is correct, the only underground station is the Terminal Tower Station itself.  55th Street is in a cut, and most of the othe stations are on the surface or on an elevated structure.  There is a covered-over terminal at the airport, but is it really underground?  Ad would these two stations make it a subway?

New York City's fleet of R32s are clearly the oldest rapid transit cars in regular service in North America.  Originally not air-conditioned, they were air-conditioned, and the cars still in operaton have their second air-conditioning systems.  They were the first fleet of stainless steel rapid transit cars in North America, built by Budd, before the retired Philly "Almond Joys."

Which cars are the next oldest.  What important innovation did they pioneer?  And do it more reliably then some that followed?

Hint:  A good friend of mine was resposible for their success --- and their continiued success.  He won't mind my naming him when you come up with the answer.

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, September 10, 2017 7:27 AM

The Rochester subway operated left-handed so that center platforms could be used.  It was abandoned in 1956.  The other one, on the Cleveland Transit System approaching Terminal Tower, is still in operation by Cleveland's RTA.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, September 9, 2017 2:32 PM

Rochester

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Friday, September 8, 2017 12:41 PM

Of several streetar subways built, this one is one of two that operated left-handed in the subway, and the first abandoned.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Friday, September 8, 2017 9:57 AM

And you have another question to ask

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, September 7, 2017 7:11 PM

Sadly, the Commonwealth trucks off IRR 55 (LVT 1030) were lost somewhere in LVT ownership.  Since it is displayed in LVT colors as 1030, the arch-bars are correct.  639 is an interesting car, set up for one man or two man service, with one-man safety features.  For Seashore, type 5 trucks were relatively easy to recondition. 639 came without seats, too.  They were built on frames from contemporary Cincinnati-built Chicago 4000-series L cars.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, September 7, 2017 3:10 AM

If Seashore has the original Commonwealth trucks, they could use them under LVT 1050/IR 55 and use the Cincinatti trucks under the Curved-side.

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, September 6, 2017 4:43 PM

Ah.  I was a little too far east.  The Broad Street light rail line in Newark (which runs between Broad St Newark (DL&W) and Newark Penn (PRR and PATH)) serving NJT and Amtrak lines operated with both diesel and electric power along with PATH rapid transit.  It reaches the #7 City Subway via a piece of a once-abandoned branch, along with a bit of new tunnel, the branch having served long ago (and only for a few years) as a connector to the Public Service of NJ Terminal in Newark.

Wheeling Transit 639 didn't come with trucks.  The only Cincinnati trucks in Seashore's collection are on LVT 1030, placed there by LVT (from scrapped 204) 'cause the original Commonwealth trucks didn't clear P&W's third rail.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, September 5, 2017 8:45 AM

Another hint.   The service that uses the old rehabiitated tunnel connects with both electric and diesel rail service at both ends.  But one end is only one "mode" and the other end has four modes.   Maybe I should say "all" four modes.   OK, no cable car or funicular or roller coaster.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, September 5, 2017 8:41 AM

Sorry to learn that the trucks are not authentic, especially since the Type 5 trucks are not as well known for a smooth ride as the Cincis are.  Have they kept the original trucks and can they be converted for standard gauge?  I have respect for the Cinci truck because of the smooth ride they provided on my multiple LVT Liberty Bell trips.

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, September 5, 2017 7:24 AM

At the time it was released for service (2009) Wheeling 639 was the only operable curved-side.  Unlike 832 it had spent time in "adaptive re-use" as part of a doctor's office in Ohio.  Both 639 and 832 have the West Penn logo on the side, as the systems were (at least for a while) under common ownership though not connected.  639 (39) was built as broad gauge.  Now on Standard C-35P trucks fom a Boston type 5 instead of the original Cincinnati arch bar.

http://chench1536.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=537408

 

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, September 5, 2017 3:06 AM

[quote user="rcdrye"]

The Cincinnati curved-side lightweight was one of the more successful lightweight designs, with over 500 built, primarily used in the midwest and southeast.  Atlanta even had some with train doors.  As far as I know, Wheeling (W. Va.) Traction 639, at Seashore Trolley Museum in Maine, is the only one in operating condition.

[/quote above]

The surviving West Penn Cincinatti Curveside in Connolsville, in service, Bill Vigrass photograph:

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, September 5, 2017 3:00 AM

The original entrance to the Boson subway was in the park.  It was relocated to the center of Boylston Strewt, and the short tunnel section leading to the in-park incline was closed off and possibly filled in.  The place for the Boylston street incline can sill be seen betwen the two tracks east of Arlington Station, and no tunnel section was involved that became disused.  The new tunnel to the Riverside Line is west of Kenmore Station branching off the Beacon Street line tunnel.

Look outside Boston for the answer.  There is a trolley subway tunnel that got a new use long after abandonment at Broadway Station on the Red Line, where the former trolley station for the Bay View line above the Red Line platforms is in use for emergency reponse training with disused rolling stock inserted there for training purposes, but that is not revenue and transportation use.

However, the operator of the tunnel I am referring to did use PCCs, and it is possible that one may have made a fantrip in the reused tunnel, but no PCCs were ever used in service in the tunnel, first use or current use.   The original use involved both double-end and single-end cars.   Current use is all double-end modern articulated light rail cars.  The route has rail connections at both ends, both involving more than one specific service. 

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Monday, September 4, 2017 7:32 AM

I'll kill one debt here, and make an answer as well.

TARS Birney 1656 was repurposed as a rail grinder in 1932.  This is the reason it was also equipped for conduit operation. 

I thnk you're referring to MBTA's reuse of one of the Boston streetcar tunnels to reach the new Fenway portal, opened in 1959 for what is now the "D" branch of the Green Line.  The new tunnel reused the short tunnel leading to the Boylson St. incline closed in 1941. The 39 and 57 lines using the incline were rerouted through the Huntington Avenue subway portal, today's "E" branch. Of course both the new and old tunnels connected to the original Boston Subway, opened in 1897.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 4, 2017 12:18 AM

I believe Arden has another in oprating condition.  West Penn had eight or ten Cincinnati Cirved-sides for its Allleghanie Division, separate from the Coke Division and abandoned before WWII.  Two were not scrapped but transferred to the Coke Division (via Pittsburgh Rys tracks on their own power) to serve the one-car Connolsville - South Connolsville local streetcar line.  I rode it in June 1949.  One of the two was saved and is at Arden, along with other Pitttsburgh-gauge equipment.

In North America there is a trolley subway disused before WWII, because the surface tracks leading to it were abandoned, but has been put back in revenue service with new surface tracks leading to it.  It connects to another trolley subway that has been in continiuous use since both were constructed and put into operation.  Where is it, what where the routes that used it, and what uses it now?

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, September 3, 2017 5:27 PM

The Cincinnati curved-side lightweight was one of the more successful lightweight designs, with over 500 built, primarily used in the midwest and southeast.  Atlanta even had some with train doors.  As far as I know, Wheeling (W. Va.) Traction 639, at Seashore Trolley Museum in Maine, is the only one in operating condition.

I'll drop the answer to the conduit-plow-equipped Birney on the Birney Thread so you can go ahead with this one without waiting for me.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, September 2, 2017 2:03 PM

cs:   You still have the obligation of looking up the Third Avenue non-revenue Birney in the Cox Birney book and relating what it became, along with its Brooklyn cousin. (cousine?)

Third Avenue, New York Railways, New York and Harlem, and all Washingon, DC operators including the interurban to Baltimore, all used plow carriers mounted under one of the two truck bolsters.  London used plow carriers under the center of the car body.  Considering the underside of a Birney as one large truck, there was plenty of room, more than under the truck of a double-truck car.  All carriers mentioned allowed slide-to-side movement of the plow.  Washington the least, and London by far the most, allowing the plow to exit the side of the car body at changeover to overhead allowing a simpler change than Washington and New York, not requiring a man in a plow-pit.

In London, the plow would exit the car body at speed and coast into a position at the stem of the Y created by the two joining slots ready for the plow man on the street to guide the plow by hand to the carrier on the inbound car.  There were always a few plows ready in stem of the Y to cover inbalance in outbound and inbound traffic.

The answer to your quesiton can be the Cincinnati Curve-sides.  Lots of beautiful Double-truck curved-side lightweight safety cars, both interurban and city cars.  Even a single truck lightweight competitive with the Birney, but few sold.  Cincinnati did also build Birneys.

But please complete the answer to my question.   The Cox Briney Book thread on the Transit forum for Trains Magazine makes it easy.

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Saturday, September 2, 2017 12:20 PM

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Friday, September 1, 2017 7:12 PM

Chicago also had a series of Birneys which proved too light for even the lightest lines.  CSL turned to its own shops for a two-truck design that used some of the Birney patents.

Ths carbuilder's most famous product combined the builder's name with the car's structural characteristics.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Friday, September 1, 2017 1:07 AM

Third Avenue never had conduit light-traffic lines.  Its light-traffic lines in Manhatten used battery cars and then were abandoned.  And its lighter-trafficed lines in Westhester and The Bronx were still too heavy to use Birneys effectively, as they learned.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Friday, September 1, 2017 12:34 AM

They did.   The answer is in the Cox Birney book, what the car was then purposed.  It was not then a revenue car, but was used on one fantrip.  It had a different purpose.   Brooklyn did the same thing, but of course did not require a plow for conduit pick-up.  Both Birneys continued in their new use until total abandonment of the systems, Third Avenue's occasionally seen on the streets of Yolnkers.  The Brooklyn one may have outlasted all streetcar paseenger service, somce the wire over the track on MacDonald Avenue continued to be used for frieght for some time.  Indeed the Swedish car that was at Branford and then repatriated ran a trip on MacDonald Avenue around 1957 or 1958.

 

i may some day dig up my photo of the Third Avenue example.

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, August 31, 2017 7:34 PM

I have to guess Third Avenue Railway (which also controlled Steinway Lines) had one of the Birneys used on some of the outer extension lines equipped so it could handle a plow. It seems pretty hard to believe they found enough room underneath to put a usable hanger.

SUBSCRIBER & MEMBER LOGIN

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

FREE NEWSLETTER SIGNUP

Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter