ZephyrOverland As for the question: The Chicago & Alton operated a train that was established in October 1916 and was named for an endpoint that the railroad didn't reach, but connecting trains did. Train name and endpoints, please. Bonus question: Another Chicago & Alton train was also established in October 1916 and operated between a pair of cities that a rival railroad was more known for. Train name and endpoints, please.
As for the question:
The Chicago & Alton operated a train that was established in October 1916 and was named for an endpoint that the railroad didn't reach, but connecting trains did. Train name and endpoints, please.
Bonus question:
Another Chicago & Alton train was also established in October 1916 and operated between a pair of cities that a rival railroad was more known for. Train name and endpoints, please.
It's been quiet for a couple of days now - so its time to stoke the fires...
As for the bonus question - the train I was looking for was called the Creve Coeur Special. This was a Chicago-Peoria train (endpoints that the Rock Island was more known for) and was initially the late afternoon train out of Chicago. It was a full service train containing "Smoking Car, Reclining Chair Car, Pullman Parlor Car and Cafe Observation Car." In March of 1918 the name was re-applied to the noon Chicago-Peoria train.
As for the main question (which is still active), some clues:
- The train was named for a city that it did not service directly, but a number of connecting trains did.
- This train did not handle through cars for connecting trains.
- When established, this train replaced the southbound Prarie State Express, and on March, 1918, the train I am looking for was replaced with the rescheduled Alton Limited.
Deggesty Aah, ZO, you got it all! I do not remember just when it was, but in later years (the fifties?) the KC-Fla Special went one way on the GS&F and the other way on the Southern between Macon and Jacksonville, and the Royal Palm went in the same direction on the Southern, and back on the GS&F. Both did return to their former directional travel after a short time. In 1916, Fairfax Harrison was the president of the Southern Rwy, the GS&F, the CNO&TP, and the AGS. He was not the president of the NO&NE, the A&V, or the VS&P at that time, though those three roads were part of the Queen and Crescent line.. It took some time after the GS&F came into the Southern System before the Dixie Flyer was routed through Albany; it is shown in the Southern System timetable--without name or any description--as going between Macon and Tifton.
Aah, ZO, you got it all!
I do not remember just when it was, but in later years (the fifties?) the KC-Fla Special went one way on the GS&F and the other way on the Southern between Macon and Jacksonville, and the Royal Palm went in the same direction on the Southern, and back on the GS&F. Both did return to their former directional travel after a short time.
In 1916, Fairfax Harrison was the president of the Southern Rwy, the GS&F, the CNO&TP, and the AGS. He was not the president of the NO&NE, the A&V, or the VS&P at that time, though those three roads were part of the Queen and Crescent line..
It took some time after the GS&F came into the Southern System before the Dixie Flyer was routed through Albany; it is shown in the Southern System timetable--without name or any description--as going between Macon and Tifton.
At the twilight of an era....
In looking for a question to ask, I was going through an issue of the Official Guide from exactly 100 years ago - August 1917. In reviewing the contents of that issue, I couldn't help think that for the trains and their operators listed in that Guide, it was near the end of an era for the railroad industry - a time when railroads was the primary transportation mode for the nation. The railroad network still at the peak of total mileage, passenger trains of every type criss-crossed the country on most of that mileage, connecting towns and cities of every size. America entered WW1 a few months earlier, and the railroad industry was feeling the effects of increased traffic, labor shortages and increasing labor costs, and was trying to cope but with increasing difficulty. Unfortunately, the era ended when the industry was put under Federal control at the end of 1917, resulting in, among other things, cutbacks in passenger train mileage and services. After the end of WW1 and the eventual return of the railroads to private hands, the transportation landscape had changed and business as usual (as it was before 1917) no longer held true.
https://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/trumanpapers/psf/longhand/index.php?documentVersion=both&documentid=hst-psf_naid735243-01&pagenumber=2
December 11, 1946
Lewis called a coal strike in the spring of 1946. For no good reason. He called it after agreeing to carry on negotiations without calling it. At least he told John Steelman to tell me there would be no strike. He called one on the old gag that the miners do not work when they have no contract.
After prolonged negotiation I decided to exercise the powers under the second war power act and take over the mines. After they were taken over a contract was negotiated between the Secretary of the Interior, Mr. Krug, and John L. Lewis.
The contract was signed in my office on the 5th of May and Mr. Lewis stated for the movies that it was his best contract and would not be broken during the time of Government control of the mines.
Along in September and October 1946 there arose some minor disputes between the Solid Fuels Administrator and Mr. Lewis. Nothing of vital importance—purely details of interpretation of the contract with regard to coal weights on which the new welfare fund is based and some other small details that could have been settled easily by a half hour discussion.
But Mr. Lewis wanted to be sure that the President would be in the most embarrassing position possible for the Congressional elections on Nov. 6. So he served a notice on the first day of November that he would consider his contract at an end on a certain date. Which was, in effect, calling a strike on that date. He called his strike by a subterfuge in order to avoid prosecution under the Smith-Connelly Act. But he'll be prosecuted never the less.
The strike took place as planned by Mr. Lewis. It lasted seventeen days and then Mr. Lewis decided for the first time in his life that he had "over-reached himself." He is a Hitler at heart, a demagogue in action and a traitor in fact. In 1942 he should have been hanged for treason. In Germany under Hitler, his ideal, in Italy under the great castor oil giver, or in Russia now he would have been "eliminated." Only in the greatest country on earth could he operate and have the support of such harmless wonders as Murray and Green, Whitney and Johnson.
There was only one thing for me to do when he called his strike by indirection and that was to take him to a cleaning.
I discussed the situation with the secretaries in the White House at the morning meeting after the fake strike call and warned them that it was a fight to the finish. At the Cabinet meeting on Friday before the election the Attorney General was instructed to take such legal steps as would protect the Government. Discussions were held with all the Cabinet and special meetings were called at which the Solid Fuels Administrator, Mr. Krug, the Secretary of Labor, Mr. Schwellenbach, the Attorney General, Mr. Clark, the Special Counselor to the President, Mr. Clifford, and Special Assistant to the President, Mr. John Steelman, were present.
The instructions were a fight to the finish, by every legal means available, and in the end to open the mines by force if that became necessary.
Mr. Lewis was hauled in to Federal Court, fined no mean sum for contempt. Action was started to enforce the contract and I had prepared an address to the country to be delivered on Sunday evening Dec. 8, anniversary of Pearl Harbor.
Mr. Lewis folded up on Saturday afternoon Dec. 7 at 3 P.M. He is, as all bullies are, as yellow as a dog pound pup. He cannot face the music when the tune is not to his liking. On the front under shell fire he'd crack up. But he can direct the murder, assault and battery goon squads as long as he doesn't have to face them.
He tried to get into communication with me while I was taking a sun treatment at Key West for a cold. He tried to talk to Dr. Steelman; he tried to approach the Secretary of the Navy, Mr. Forrestal; he tried to get in touch with the Secretary of Labor on the night before the fold up. For first time he found no pipe line to the White House. I had a fully loyal team and that team whipped a damned traitor.
Deggesty I always had the impression the the Southern had trackage rights for its trains between Jesup and Jacksonville; the 1917 Guide that have shows no Jesup-Jacksonville trains in the ACL listing. - You're right, SR did have trackage rights, but except for the trains I mentioned in the earlier post, ACL did not show SR trains in ACL schedules. The same guide shows a Jesup-Jacksonville diner on the Royal Palm--and no diner for breakfast into Jacksonville for the KC-Fla Specia - That was a train-specific issue. Was the coal strike in 1947? I know that the Southern had to make adjustments in its passenger train schedules during the coal strike. - The coal strike was in 1946. I think the issue of merging Royal Palm and Kansas City-Florida Special for most of 1947 was to control costs in light of falling revenues resulting from from declining business, something the entire railroad industry was facing at the time.
I always had the impression the the Southern had trackage rights for its trains between Jesup and Jacksonville; the 1917 Guide that have shows no Jesup-Jacksonville trains in the ACL listing.
- You're right, SR did have trackage rights, but except for the trains I mentioned in the earlier post, ACL did not show SR trains in ACL schedules.
The same guide shows a Jesup-Jacksonville diner on the Royal Palm--and no diner for breakfast into Jacksonville for the KC-Fla Specia
- That was a train-specific issue.
Was the coal strike in 1947? I know that the Southern had to make adjustments in its passenger train schedules during the coal strike.
- The coal strike was in 1946. I think the issue of merging Royal Palm and Kansas City-Florida Special for most of 1947 was to control costs in light of falling revenues resulting from from declining business, something the entire railroad industry was facing at the time.
Oh, yes--the Atlanta-SE Georgia sleeper I mentioned was Atlanta-Valdosta, on the CG and GS&F. The train ran to Jacksonville, but was coach only south of Valdosta.
Johnny
Deggesty Aah, ZO, you got it all! I do not remember just when it was, but in later years (the fifties?) the KC-Fla Special went one way on the GS&F and the other way on the Southern between Macon and Jacksonville, and the Royal Palm went in the same direction on the Southern, and back on the GS&F. Both did return to their former directional travel after a short time. It took some time after the GS&F came into the Southern System before the Dixie Flyer was routed through Albany; it is shown in the Southern System timetable--without name or any description--as going between Macon and Tifton.
Deggesty In June, 101 years ago, there were three routes with overnight service between Atlanta and Jacksonville. One was coach only into Jacksonville, the other two were both coach and Pullman--and carried through sleepers from several Midwest points. One of the other two had two trains, both with through Pullmans.. Altogether, four roads were involved in the traffic. One road was controlled by another of the roads, and it carried a Pullman that ran between Atlanta and a large city in southeast Georgia. Name the roads and the junctions.
In June, 101 years ago, there were three routes with overnight service between Atlanta and Jacksonville. One was coach only into Jacksonville, the other two were both coach and Pullman--and carried through sleepers from several Midwest points. One of the other two had two trains, both with through Pullmans.. Altogether, four roads were involved in the traffic. One road was controlled by another of the roads, and it carried a Pullman that ran between Atlanta and a large city in southeast Georgia.
Name the roads and the junctions.
The roads would be:
Central of Georgia
Georgia Southern & Florida
Atlantic Coast Line
Southern
One route was via Tifton and was used at the time by The Southland and Dixie Flyer:
CofG - Atlanta-Macon
GS&F - Macon-Tifton
ACL - Tifton-Jacksonville
The other route was used by SR's Royal Palm and Kansas City-Florida Special:
SR - Atlanta-Jesup
ACL - Jesup-Jacksonville
The GS&F was controlled by SR from 1895. By 1920 non-SR through trains were re-routed to run via CoG to Albany and ACL to Jacksonville. The GS&F route became the second SR Atlanta-Jacksonville route, running via Valdosta.
One route had three roads in it.
Deggesty daveklepper Your fourth train was the Kansas City - Forida Special with through sleepers as well as carrying an Atlanta - Brunzwick sleeper part way. This was Southern, I believe. One of the Southern's Midwest - Florida trains was also overnight, and I think separate from that KSFS. I think ACL handled both the C&EI-L&N and the PRR-L&N trains also. Dave, you are right that the Kansas City-Florida Special was the train I forgot about in the first post. However, even though it did carry an Atlanta-Brunswick sleeper in layer years, it did not have one in 1916. The Royal Palm was operated separately from the KC-Fla Special, and it was one of the four. Its route was changed in later years. I think that it was in the fifties that the routes of these two trains was interesting. At that time, The KC-Fla Special carried a Denver-Jacksonville Pullman.
daveklepper Your fourth train was the Kansas City - Forida Special with through sleepers as well as carrying an Atlanta - Brunzwick sleeper part way. This was Southern, I believe. One of the Southern's Midwest - Florida trains was also overnight, and I think separate from that KSFS. I think ACL handled both the C&EI-L&N and the PRR-L&N trains also.
Your fourth train was the Kansas City - Forida Special with through sleepers as well as carrying an Atlanta - Brunzwick sleeper part way. This was Southern, I believe. One of the Southern's Midwest - Florida trains was also overnight, and I think separate from that KSFS. I think ACL handled both the C&EI-L&N and the PRR-L&N trains also.
Dave, you are right that the Kansas City-Florida Special was the train I forgot about in the first post. However, even though it did carry an Atlanta-Brunswick sleeper in layer years, it did not have one in 1916. The Royal Palm was operated separately from the KC-Fla Special, and it was one of the four. Its route was changed in later years. I think that it was in the fifties that the routes of these two trains was interesting.
At that time, The KC-Fla Special carried a Denver-Jacksonville Pullman.
No, the AB&A did not enter into it. There was another road which was soon absorbed into a well-known system.
The two railroad route is the Atlantic, Birmingham and Atlanta's joint service with the Atlantic Coast Line via Waycross, Ga. (The AB&A also had a line to Brunswick that may have been used for Jacksonville service). The AB&A became the AB & Coast in 1926, under ACL control. Merged into ACL in 1946, this was the route of the later Dixie Route trains.
Deggesty On another thread (concerning quizes) RME said he did not have time to come up with what he considered to be a decent question. To keep the headscratching going, here is a question concerning overnight service between Atlanta and Jacksonville. In June, 101 years ago, there were three routes with overnight service between Atlanta and Jacksonville. One was coach only into Jacksonville, the other two were both coach and Pullman--and carried through sleepers from several Midwest points. One of the other two had two trains, both with through Pullmans.. Altogether, four roads were involved in the traffic. One road was controlled by another of the roads, and it carried a Pullman that ran between Atlanta and a large city in southeast Georgia. Name the roads and the junctions. I posted this question on the same thread wherein he suggested that someone else come up with a question.
On another thread (concerning quizes) RME said he did not have time to come up with what he considered to be a decent question.
To keep the headscratching going, here is a question concerning overnight service between Atlanta and Jacksonville.
I posted this question on the same thread wherein he suggested that someone else come up with a question.
Forty years later, the three trains still had overnight Pullman service between Atlanta and Jacksonville--though two had been combined into one--but on different routes.
I forgot to add a fourth overnight train with Pullman service between Atlanta and Jacksonville which used one of the 1916 routes; it had a through car from a bit farther west than the other trains did--and it was still running over the same route Atlanta-Jacksonville in 1956 as it was using in 1916.
December 10, 1968 - Creating a new council on urban affairs, President-elect Richard Nixon introduces the man he's named to head it—Dr. Daniel P. Moynihan. Moynihan is head of the Joint Center for Urban Studies at Harvard University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. The new council's aims will be to help the President solve the problems of the cities.
September 8, 1970 - President Nixon was guided on a tour of some of the proposed projects in the so-called Pennsylvania Avenue Project by Daniel P. Moynihan, the presidential counselor. Nixon was viewing construction of a reflecting pool in the area of the Capitol.
September 22, 1971 - Delegation member Daniel P. Moynihan and UN Ambassador George Bush.
August 27, 1975 - UN Ambassador Daniel P. Moynihan and President Gerald Ford,
October 28, 1976 - Daniel Patrick Moynihan greets riders on the subway.
February 14, 1999 - Senator John McCain and Sen. Patrick Moynihan on NBC's ''Meet the Press."
MiningmanMaybe Pennsy was afraid of them actually "holding up" and being successful so as not to be associated with a disaster or a boondoggle thus ridicule ...
Well, you may recall that the tunnels visibly moved with the tide, and for a while it seemed as if they might fail quickly, or fatigue to fail later; in my interpretation of the situation there was really a certain amount of luck in the choice of construction and materials that made the engineering oversight non-critical in the end...
Should the replacements eventually get completed I hope for all your sakes ...] It's for all our sakes. Canadians will be wincing at ill-chosen names, too. [... they are not named after some feckless politician.
It's for all our sakes. Canadians will be wincing at ill-chosen names, too.
[... they are not named after some feckless politician.
Fortunately they already have good default names that I suspect people will remember: the Gateway Tunnels to go with Portal Bridge. Note that the Empire Connection and that LIRR project into GCT don't have political names, either.
(Of course I will be striking a small blow for the right by still using NYP or Penn Station instead of "Moynihan" for the station, no matter how it gets revised into the old Post Office building, and people will understand what I mean ....)
https://books.google.com/books?id=oPgNAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA360&lpg=PA360&dq=%22Although+Greater+New+York+does+not+bear+any+resemblance+to+a+great+mining+district%22&source=bl&ots=qsxJm31Hr0&sig=g6zqS3-Cpc964LvMMmqy4zAu3fU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjwqJz1oqbVAhUMcD4KHYJLDs8Q6AEILTAC#v=onepage&q&f=true
Yes it is astonishing really that the "North River" tunnels were never christened with a name. After all that money, engineering, sacrifice, vision, an astounding accomplishment. Maybe Pennsy was afraid of them actually "holding up" and being successful so as not to be associated with a disaster or a boondoggle thus ridicule, or maybe after all of that effort they were exhausted by the ordeal and just put it off to a later, which never came. Or perhaps they were just being modest, taking a different tack from their rival the brash New York Central.
Should the replacements eventually get completed I hope for all your sakes they are not named after some feckless politician. Which, of course, is all of them. Good grief.
MiningmanAs per the tunnel I nominate the Cassatt Tunnel although I doubt that is what they would have called it...probably a geographic reference.
PRR would probably have used a name comparable to the Atglen & Susquehanna 'low grade' for the line itself, which if I remember the proposed track chart right was only going to be about 9 miles long. I do not know whether any part of the old line would be preserved (especially with electrification). By extension with much older PRR tradition, as in New Portage RR, the tunnel might be called New Gallitzin. Interesting that the North River tunnels were never given a commemorative name.
Also...rcdrye has offered to referee or oversee the Quiz, so lets start off fresh with that. One question is posted and we are awaiting one.
Not to abandon the quiz or any other forum but I am leaving for 3 + weeks Wednesday am..of course I will check it when possible and keep up but web time will be very limited.
Firelock76- Don't feel shy or "foolish" ,,one thing about getting on into our "Classic years" is the sudden shocking realization that you're now wise enough to realize that your not as smart as you think you were.
Quite the revelation.
ps- I get a real kick out of that "Border Security" show with travellers between US and Canada at land crossings and airports. Now why on earth would you need brass knuckles, 12" blade knifes and 5 of them, 3 pistols on you, 2 on your girlfriend, 2 more in the door storage section and long guns out the ying yang plus thousands of rounds of ammo while wearing some kind of gruesome T shirt.
The war ended in 1814. Our department of d-fence seizes these things, that ones that are not legal and registered, which is almost everything, and walks the remainder over to the USA where you can get them back on your return. Maybe some 'splainin' to do, Our guys always destroy the brass knuckles. Of course the guy with no drivers licence and a borrowed car. Yeah ok, good luck with that.
OK..well Deggesty has the one question out there and SD70M-2 Dude has won the right to ask the other.
As per the tunnel I nominate the Cassatt Tunnel although I doubt that is what they would have called it...probably a geographic reference.
That could still come about in the future if there was the will and a person with vision at the helm..super long shot putting back the missing pieces such as the CASO. Suppose the day of the railroad tycoon is gone, they are all chasing robots and digital everything.
I think from a strategic point of view, such as some unforeseen national emergency, large ground war, West Coast earthquake from hell, that we are in a far weaker less effective position today then we were during WWII. We are more efficient but I think too skinny. No rails in Newfoundland at all, virtually the entire Maritimes. Not good.
What would the "likely" name of the tunnel be that should/could have been in lieu of Horseshoe Curve? Nominations?
MiningmanCan you imagine the historical implications if the CPR threw caution to the wind and acquired the whole Wabash system.
Perhaps the 'fun' thing would be a version of the 1925 'fifth system' that, instead of butt-ending the DL&W and the Nickel Plate, used the CASO line to Detroit, a better tunnel, and then Wabash to Chicago. in between more and better Pequest Fills on the east end and PRR-style massive improvement on the west end, you'd have something highly competitive with the 'regular' players in both passenger and freight but serving a wide range (as intended) of very different intermediate places...
To Toronto faster than Cleveland, either way? Dry run for the Isthmus of Tehuantepec railway with some of the lake traffic? AND, finally, the right impetus to improve the other systems, instead of ruinous route duplication a la West Shore/South Penn ... for example, we'd get by the late '30s a start on the 9400' tunnel and associated electrification that would bypass the whole compromise that was Horse Shoe...
Fussy too...I read an account that during the Crump years he would hold up the typed duplicates ( the secretaries use carbon paper in between 2 sheets to make a duplicate) hold them up to the light and if they did not align perfectly he would make them do it over. Ridiculous really.
You are correct RME. Can you imagine the historical implications if the CPR threw caution to the wind and acquired the whole Wabash system.
Actually, what is to stop them from spinning off the unwanted portions anyway? Granted they were substantial, but keeping the system intact would have been a heck of a thing for them in a few years down the road...I would like to think they would keep the name Wabash. May have kept steam running as long as the Nickel Plate did in certain locations.
Implications for Erie, NKP, NYC as well. Then N&W and NS today. Interesting what if scenario. Would like to think they gave GTW/CNR fits.
CPR threw nickels around like manhole covers, pretty tight fisted.
If I remember right, it was the Wabash, and the parent road at the time was PRR (via W.W. Atterbury)
One problem for the Canadian Pacific that exists persisting even to today is that the CPR never had it's own rails into Chicago from the East, such as London, Toronto and Montreal. Unlike the CNR with the Grand Trunk Western whose freight and passenger could highball on through the CPR terminated at Windsor/Detroit, using ferry boats and then later the CASO tunnel to get stateside, at which point they really could not write their own ticket.
However, during the depression years a Class 1 that had a superb Detroit to Chicago main line was in big financial trouble. It was controlled by an even bigger Class 1, its parent at the time. Talks ensued to acquire the Detroit Chicago main but the parent wanted the buyer to acquire the entire system, no piecemeal stuff.
Ever frugal, the CPR foolishly and short sighted said no.
What was the railroad with the mainline CPR wanted to purchase and who was its parent.
Needless to say things would be a different today and historically if CPR had not been so cheap and looked to the future an acquired the whole system.
RME, next question of course.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locThumbs.aspx?id=100384
http://cnymod.blogspot.com/2014/04/sam-sloan-ruled-lackawanna-railroad.html
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