What red cars of the IND?
The only red cars I remember (and there were a fair number of them!) were on the IRT lines (1-2-3 and 4-5-6 in Manhattan) and on the 7 line crosstown.
The riveted-body R cars on the IND stayed black to the end (roughly around 1975, before the 'red' era); at least, I never saw one in normal passenger service that wasn't black. Can't think of anything else on IND that would have been red... what am I missing?
First, KCSFan is clearly the winner with nine firsts according to my count.
Yes there were "B-Division" red cars, not just IRT. These were some of the arch-roof SMEEE cars that came aftern the monitor roof R-10's, but they ran mostly on the BMT lines when they were painted a dark red, not the bright red of the IRT xcars. Anyway, I counted the New York system as one.
Missing so far are the obvious Long Island Rail Road and the Gulf, Mobile, and Ohio.
Tek ti away KCS
Forgot to mention, the INS R-1 - R-7 (1931-1941) cars were never really black. They were a very dark green ,seldom washed, and looked and photographed black. Then, many were repained into the dark brown of BMT cars during the time when they were assigned to Coney lsland or Broaedway Eat New York.
I've some questions and comments concerning Dave's red cars question before posting the next one.
1. Having ridden and seen their trains many times, I feel foolish for overlookiing the GM&O.
2. It's been 45 years since I rode the NY subways but I thought the 8th Ave. line had red cars and was an IND line. Am I mistaken about this?
3. I don't know if the Chicago-Detroit PRR/WAB Red Bird ran during the time period of Dave's question. In any event weren't the WAB cars assigned to this train painted red or is my memorf faulty about this too?
On to a new question. The first vista-dome car was introduced in what year and by what railroad? Who was the builder of this car and what inspired its construction?
Mark
The first railroad to own a Vista dome car was the CB&Q rebuilt from a flat top coach in 1945 at the CB&Q Aurora shops. The car was originally named Silver Alchemy and became the SILVER DOME. A second viista dome was rebuilt in 1947 from a flat top coach by the same shop from a car named Silver castle in this case they did not change the name. Between the first and only two Vista domes built in the CB&Q Aurora shops Budd delivered ten to the CB&Q to equip the post war Twin Zephyrs that train becoming the first advertized as the Vista-Dome Twin Zephyrs.
CB&Q had several caboose type cars in the 1920s with twin cupolas that were used for passengers as they traveled through the Canadian Rockies.
passengerfan The first railroad to own a Vista dome car was the CB&Q rebuilt from a flat top coach in 1945 at the CB&Q Aurora shops. The car was originally named Silver Alchemy and became the SILVER DOME. A second viista dome was rebuilt in 1947 from a flat top coach by the same shop from a car named Silver castle in this case they did not change the name. Between the first and only two Vista domes built in the CB&Q Aurora shops Budd delivered ten to the CB&Q to equip the post war Twin Zephyrs that train becoming the first advertized as the Vista-Dome Twin Zephyrs.
You've nailed it Passengerfan. Haven't heard from you in a while and since tax time is uon us again I hope you're not too busy yet to ask the next question.
Cyrus Osborn of GM's EMD is generally credited for the vista-dome concept which he got the idea for while riding through the Rockies in the cab of an EMD locomotive. He gave his sketches of such a car to the Burlington and they picked up the ball and ran with it.
Just got over some health problems and maybe will have more time for this forum once again even though tax season is here.
My question is Amtrak purchased six Pacific Car & Foundry Baggage cars from SP and numbered them second 1000 - 1006. They were on the property at the same time as the former CB&Q 1000 - 1006 were on the property. My question is what year were they purchased ?
Al, it's always good to see a classic thread starter.
http://content.lib.utah.edu/u?/USHS_Class,13109 Vista-Dome monument
http://content.lib.utah.edu/u?/USHS_Class,13110 Plaque
http://content.lib.utah.edu/u?/USHS_Class,13111 Cyrus R. Osborn (1897-1968)
Mike
If it's ethical to go back to the red psgr cars query, may considering the Interurban Electric Ry (SP's East Bay transbay-ferry feeder) and , too, a railroad whose cars modelers buy Floquil "Tuscan Red" for psgr cars.
And, 20 years ago the White Pass and Yukon's fleet , looked like about 30 or more cars, were a very red maroon. The Skagway area was magic in 1991.
*** my finger and I bleed blood type SP. The latest question; no idea except to some way-back memory says PC&F built the Coast Daylight consists. But I recall a combine was the first car.
I think you are correct on red cars on the A train. I mentioned that some of the B MT-assigned arch roof cars came painted red, but they may also have been assigned to the A when I was not riding the system regularly. Also, there is some evidence that some of the R-10's, the first postWWII cars, were repainted red from their original two-tone greay with orange striping scheme before they were phased out. All; this red was deep red, not the bright red of the IRT "Red Birds" which was not their original color (in most cases) also..
Pullman Standard built the Daylights but Pacific Car and Foundry built a series of Baggage cars for the SP in 1962, my question was in what year did Amtrak purchase six I believe it was 1976 but can't find a definite information.
passengerfan Pullman Standard built the Daylights but Pacific Car and Foundry built a series of Baggage cars for the SP in 1962, my question was in what year did Amtrak purchase six I believe it was 1976 but can't find a definite information.
I believe that Amtrak leased 15 of those PCF baggage cars but in 1983 took ownership of 6 of them in exchange for the ex-PRR George Washington and Alexander Hamilton. The SP planned to use those observation cars as part of their Business Car fleet. I'm not sure if those cars were actually converted. I remember seeing them in LA in 1984 still in their PRR markings.
What is the status of the most current question?
ZO Was there a question out there?
Rgds IGN
narig01 ZO Was there a question out there? Rgds IGN
I think the question is from January 28 from Passengerfan.
OK, I'll try. Possiblyi these baggage cars were purchased during Amtrak's startup year, 1970?
My response to this question was posted on February 16.
ZephyrOverland passengerfan: Pullman Standard built the Daylights but Pacific Car and Foundry built a series of Baggage cars for the SP in 1962, my question was in what year did Amtrak purchase six I believe it was 1976 but can't find a definite information. I believe that Amtrak leased 15 of those PCF baggage cars but in 1983 took ownership of 6 of them in exchange for the ex-PRR George Washington and Alexander Hamilton. The SP planned to use those observation cars as part of their Business Car fleet. I'm not sure if those cars were actually converted. I remember seeing them in LA in 1984 still in their PRR markings.
passengerfan: Pullman Standard built the Daylights but Pacific Car and Foundry built a series of Baggage cars for the SP in 1962, my question was in what year did Amtrak purchase six I believe it was 1976 but can't find a definite information.
When can we get an evaluation of the last response and either a new question or a definite answer and a new question?
It has been 5 days since I've seen any reply. So I will put out this question:
The first passenger train arrived in Hope, Ar (where I now reside) in 1872. by 1903 there were 3 railroads in Hope and it had developed into a railroad junction.
Please name the railroads and the successor companies, and current operators.
Thx IGN
narig01 It has been 5 days since I've seen any reply. So I will put out this question: The first passenger train arrived in Hope, Ar (where I now reside) in 1872. by 1903 there were 3 railroads in Hope and it had developed into a railroad junction. Please name the railroads and the successor companies, and current operators. Thx IGN
Johnny
The LOUISIANA & ARKANSAS ....and the "absorption" was the other way around. The L&A actually merged into and controlled the KCS under Harvey Couch. All the postwar streamline sleepers and the FM passenger units were actually owned by the L&A.
FlyingCrow The LOUISIANA & ARKANSAS ....and the "absorption" was the other way around. The L&A actually merged into and controlled the KCS under Harvey Couch. All the postwar streamline sleepers and the FM passenger units were actually owned by the L&A.
Deggesty narig01: The first passenger train arrived in Hope, Ar (where I now reside) in 1872. by 1903 there were 3 railroads in Hope and it had developed into a railroad junction. Please name the railroads and the successor companies, and current operators. Thx IGN I believe that the St. Louis Iron Mountain and Southern was the first one in; it became a part of the MP system, and is now a part of the UP. The Arkansas and Louisiana was the next one; it was absorbed by the KCS, which apparently operates it as far as Anthony. The third line seems to have been the SLSF, and is now operated by the Kiamichi, which also has trackage rights over the KCS line (according to SPV).
narig01: The first passenger train arrived in Hope, Ar (where I now reside) in 1872. by 1903 there were 3 railroads in Hope and it had developed into a railroad junction. Please name the railroads and the successor companies, and current operators. Thx IGN
I believe that the St. Louis Iron Mountain and Southern was the first one in; it became a part of the MP system, and is now a part of the UP. The Arkansas and Louisiana was the next one; it was absorbed by the KCS, which apparently operates it as far as Anthony. The third line seems to have been the SLSF, and is now operated by the Kiamichi, which also has trackage rights over the KCS line (according to SPV).
Johnny: As has been pointed out the correct name is Louisana & Arkansas.
Still looking for the 1st railroad name into Hope.
Actually the original name of the Hope to Ardmore line of the SLSF was the St. Louis, San Francisco & New Orleans RR.
Still looking for the name of the 1st railroad into Hope. As I said the 1st railroad was merged into St Louis Iron Mountain & Southern.. The St L, I M & S was the 1st railroad into Texarkana, Ar.
Cairo & Fulton
Mr AB Dean got the first railroad
The Cairo & Fulton built thru Hope and had the first passenger train in 1872. In 1874 they were merged into St Louis Iron Mountain & Southern. Also in 1874 the line crossed the Red River and extended into Texas at what is now Texarkana.
I've not been able to find a date for when the SLSF arrived in Hope. All I could get was that it was here when the Lousiana & Arkansas built north from Stamps and was connected in 1903.
SLSF went on to Burlington Northern then BNSF. This is now run by Kiamichi.
The Louisana & Arkansas then KCS line in town is now a stub of the Kiamichi, with UP having trackage rights(not sure about what kind of arrangement). The majority of the line south to Stamps has been abandoned. With about 4 miles north from the current KCS line still in existance. The north end here in Hope still is used by Kiamichi to serve a feed mill on the south end of town.
How to score this:
Deggesty: Johnny You've got St Louis Iron Mountain &Southern, Missouri Pacific, UPKansas City Southern SLSF & Kiamichi.
Flying Crow You correctly identified The Cairo & Fulton. And corrected Johnny's transposition of the Louisana & Arkansas.
narig01 I've not been able to find a date for when the SLSF arrived in Hope.
I've not been able to find a date for when the SLSF arrived in Hope.
Excerpt from The Railway News (Jan. 16, 1904)
On January 1 mixed train service was inaugurated over the St. Louis, San Francisco and New Orleans line (formerly Arkansas and Choctaw) from Ashdown to Hope, Ark.
Excerpt from Statutes of the United States of America (1896)
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled that the Arkansas and Choctaw Railway Company, a corporation created under and by virtue of the laws of the State of Arkansas, be, and the same is hereby, invested and empowered with the right of locating, constructing, owning, equipping, operating, using, and maintaining a railway and telegraph and telephone line through the Choctaw Nation, in the Indian Territory, beginning at the point on the boundary line between the said Choctaw Nation and the county of Little River, in the State of Arkansas, where the said railway may run, when constructed in the State of Arkansas, thence running, by the most feasible and practicable route, in a northwesterly direction through the said Choctaw Nation, to such point at or near the town of Atoka, in said nation, as said corporation may select, with the right to construct, use, and maintain such tracks, turn-outs, and sidings as said company may deem it to their interest to construct along and upon the right of way and depot grounds herein provided for.
Excerpt from National Register of Historic Places (1996)
The St. Louis and San Francisco Railway Company, commonly known as the Frisco, was established in 1853 to develop a route west to San Francisco across the thirty-fifth parallel, which included Arkansas. Though much of the line was completed by the 1870s, the venture ultimately failed due to inferior administration, fallacious timing, erratic public opinion, bad luck, and greed. In 1866, Congress rescinded the Frisco's 1866 land grant, reclaiming all but 14 million of the 40 million acres it had granted to the company for development purposes, and the line was taken over by the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe system. The Panic of 1893 forced the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe into receivership, and in 1896 a reorganized St. Louis and San Francisco bought the eastern portions of the old line at a foreclosure sale. By July 8,1902, the company, financially solid, bought the Arkansas and Choctaw Railway company (renamed the St. Louis, San Francisco and New Orleans Railroad company on October 2, 1902)...
The Arkansas and Choctaw Railway Company was incorporated on August 31, 1895. A line on the Texarkana and Fort Smith Railway began at Ashdown and ran 22 miles to the Arkansas state line west of Arkinda. In 1895 construction was completed while the line was under control of the Central Coal and Coke Company of Kansas City, Missouri. The Choctaw Construction Company was organized by Central Coal and Coke to construct the railroad line from the Arkansas state line to Ardmore, Oklahoma. Control of the line passed to the Construction Company on June 11, 1901. Choctaw Construction was controlled by an executive committee of its stockholders, consisting of Richard H. Keith, president of Central Coal and Coke Company; George A. Madill, a director of the St. Louis and San Francisco Railroad Company; and John Scullin of the St. Louis and San Francisco Railroad Company. A syndicate was formed by the St. Louis and San Francisco Railroad Company to finance such a purchase, under an agreement dated July 8, 1902, which passed control of the Choctaw Construction Company to the St. Louis and San Francisco Railroad Company. The construction plans were changed to provide for a railroad line from Hope, Arkansas to Ardmore, Oklahoma.
In September of 1902, construction began on the line which ran from the Arkansas state line west of Arkinda to Ardmore, Oklahoma. The line was 167 miles long and was completed in August, 1903. A 32-mile stretch from Ashdown to Hope was started in September, 1902, and completed in December, 1903. The line from Kersey (originally Mead), Oklahoma to Texas Junction, Texas (originally Platter) was completed on November 8, 1903. The St. Louis and San Francisco Railroad Company, by virtue of the agreement of July 8, 1902, became the owner of all the construction company's securities on January 1, 1904. On November 30, 1907 the property was deeded to the St. Louis and San Francisco Railroad Company.
When AB Dean named the Cairo and Fulton, my thought was of the IC's line from Cairo, Ill, to Fulton, Ky. I looked the road up, and found this:
http://encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=2422
Another article, http://www.depotmuseum.org/articles.php?article=56 , gives more information on the construction south of Little Rock, telling that Texarkana was reached in January, 1874.
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