One other comment.
11,000 volt 25 cycle(Hertz) installations were Westinghouse installations. The only other reference I could find on this refers to the German company AEG. I think AEG may have done some installations in europe but on first glance I could not find any.
I have to wonder thou as 25 hz would be a fairly easy split from a lot of German power systems which use 50 hz. I may be wrong about this.
Thx IGN
CSS has ro be the winner.. but before you post the next question, or in addition to posting the next question, list all the successors, like Penn Central and Conrail and Amtrak (there are others) that are applicable.
Henry6, what is with you? I said railroad companies and authorities? What is with this Danbury Branch? The New Haven was listed already, yet. And the others you listed are definitely not 11000volt 25 Hz AC. If you aplied 11000V AC to the Laurel Line's third rail, you'd get a short in less than a second! Did you read the question?
Cleveland Uniont Terminal: 1200V DC overhead wire
New Haven Danbury branch New Haven RR already mentioned
Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley (Laural Line) 600V DC third rail except overhead wire in Wiilkesbarre, and the South Scranton freight branch and the Nay Aug Park branch.
Old Dominion 600 and 1200C DC overhead wire, Washington and Old Dominion
B&O Baltimore tunnel 600V DC unprotected third rail.
Milwaukee Road at two locations 3000V DC overhead wire
Chicago Underground Freight 250volt DC third and fourth rails
Sacremento Northern 1200volt DC ovehread wire and 600volts DC third rail and overhead wire
Henry6 can redeem himself by naming ALL the successor companies and authorities and not making any mistakes in doing so!
Mount Blanc was or is 50Hz, like most European AC electrifications, although some early ones were 16-2/3Hz, and I understand some still are. In Switzerland of all places, also Germany and Austria
Early French electrifications were 1500V DC like the South Shore and IC Suburban. Some still are..
Comments. The LIRR is commonly thought of as a third rail DC electrification. But it owned the Bay Ridge Branch, still does in fact although operated by New York and Atlantic, The branch was used 95% by New Haven frieght trains mostly using 11000V AC power, with the occasional LIRR local freight steam powered (2-8-0 or 4-6-0). But it owned a number of PRR-design B-1 0-6-0 electric switchers, all 11000V AC, to switch the Bay Ridge yard, including moving trains on and off barges, with idler flatcars. Washington Terminal had the two MP-54's, but its switchers were all PRR-designed 0-6-0 B-6 steam locomotives, with the usual slope-backed tenders, replaced by Alco RS-1's.
My master list:
New Haven
New York Connecting
Pennsylvania RR
PC
Conrail
NJ DOT (directly owned cars used on former Pennsylvania RR lines to Penn Station before NJ Transit created)
NJ Transit
Metro North
Conneticut DOT(owns the cars and former New Haven in Conneticut operated by Metro North)
SEPTA
Amtrak
MARC(Maryland)
Washington Termial Company(had 2 MP-54's for employee shuttles)
Erie RR Rochester-Mt Morris . This is a Westinghouse installation electrified at 11kV. I've been going back over what I could find and can not find any reference to what frequency was used.I am assuming as it was Westinghouse it's 25hertz.
Reading Co
Pennsylvania Tunnel and Terminal Railroad (This was the corporate entity that owned both the North River and East River tunnels during the 1930's thru the Penn Central merger)
Mt Blanc Tramway
Virginian Railway
Boston &Maine
New York Westchester & Boston
Rock Island Southern Electric Train November 1910 1918 I have not gotten a lot detail about their AC operation. Started November 1910 and (the AC portion) deelectrified about the end of WWI.
Norfolk & Western
Great Northern
Detroit Toledo & Ironton. The 2 electric freight engines?
I had completely forgotten about RF&P.
YOu are corrrect . Note that Connecrticut DOT owns the electrification, formerly 11000V 25Hz, now 12500V 60Hz, Conn-NY State Line - New Haven. NJT owns the electrification from Rahway, junc. with NEC, south to formerly South Amboy, but now extended to Long Branch. Anyone know if this is all now 60Hz, or part 25Hz and part 60 Hz, or all 25 Hz? NJT also owns the Princeton-Princeton Jc. and that is still 11000V 25 Hz. Morris and Essex went straight from DC to 12,500V 60Hz, but its trains to Penn Staition switch to 11000V 25Hz to enter the NEC.
The Erie electrification was, indeed, 11000V 25Hz, similar to the NYNH&H just opened a year earlier, except just a few wood mu cars were obtained. One pantograph each, center of car roof.
The MBTA centered in Boston does not own any electrification and would not contribute to Amtrak's. So Amtrak's lacks the substation capacity to handle any commuter trains, and all Purple line NEC trains are diesel. Thanks IG for your complete list. But don't forget LIRR (Bay Ridge Branch). And I did assign the winner earlier. CSSHeghwich.
Excerpt from Electrical World, October 12, 1907
As has been noted in our columns from time to time, and as discussed in our issue for Jan. 29, 1907, the first American steam railroad to substitute single-phase motors for steam locomotives in the propulsion of its trains was the Erie, on its Rochester Division...
The section of track equipped is 34 miles long, extending from Rochester, over the main line of the Rochester Division, to Avon, a distance of about 19 miles, thence 15 miles over the Mt. Morris Branch. The railroad is entirely single-track, with sidings at way stations, averaging 3 to 4 miles apart. The grades are light, and the curvature for the most part quite easy, the line being relatively quite straight.
The electric service is devoted solely to passenger traffic, which is of the local interurban type. There are in use six motor-cars, each of which is equipped with four conductively-compensated series-connected single-phase motors of Westinghouse manufacture. These motors are operated with 25-cycle current taken from auto-transformers, which receive their supply at 11,000 volts from an overhead catenary trolley wire. Electrically considered, the motors are similar in every respect to those in use on the New York, New Haven & Hartford locomotives...
http://books.google.com/books?id=e25EAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA719
Another BRC question (I can't help it, I live about 1 mile from Clearing's hump). I used a citation in my previous of question of "Serving 12 Masters". Which were the twelve railroads that owned the Belt Railway of Chicago?
I will make an attempt: B&O, C&O, PRR, NYC, Erie, AT&SF, RI, Alton-then GM&O, CB&Q, C&NW, C&EI. MIlwaukee.
I left out the IC because the IC, ditto the Grand Trunk, had own belt lines and connections with other railroad's years, possibly reducing use of Clearing and the Chicago Belt.
Not quite: B&O, C&NW and MILW were not owners of BRC. B&O had its own belt line (B&OCT) and MILW and C&NW had an interest in IHB (C&NW later sold its interest in the Heineman era).
OK. I thought better of B&O, remembering B&O Chicago Terminal, but could not get back before now to make the correction. Possibly then the three missing ones are:
Michigan Central listed separately from NYC, similarly with Big Four (CCC&St.L)
Pere Marquette, separate from C&O until merger or takeover.
The Soo Line (CP) is a part owner of the Belt Railway, from the original WC/MSP&SSM days.
No to Michigan Central and Big Four, sort of correct with Pere Marquette since you previously listed C&O. C&O was never an owner on its own, but inherited PM's ownership with the merger in 1947. Three unmentioned owners still left.
rcrdye is correct with Soo Line. Two owners left.
Master list from 1957 BRC map
Soo, IC, CB&Q, AT&SF, Wabash, GTW, CRI&P, PRR, CI&L (Monon), Erie, C&EI, PM.
So with mergers, calculating each 8.3% share...
CP 8.3 (Soo), CN 16.6 (GTW + IC), BNSF 16.6 (CB&Q + AT&SF),
NS 25 (Wabash + PRR + Erie), CSX 20.75 (PM + CI&L, 50% of C&EI), UP 4.16 (50% of C&EI)
Not sure where to tuck CRI&P's 8.3% but it's between CSX and Metra.
We now have all twelve owners, I'll give daveklepper the honor of the next question since he got nine owners right from the start.
As far as current ownership, I am going to assume that the Big Six (BNSF, CSX, CN, CP, NS and UP) have equal shares in BRC for a variety of reasons. L&N became a thirteenth owner around 1969 or 1970 when it obtained C&EI's Evansville line, ownership was still in 13 equal shares. Conrail's share (from PRR by way of PC) would presumably have been divided between CSX and NS, the same would apply to Conrail's interest (from NYC by way of PC) in IHB. Since the corporate shell of Rock Island was not liquidated or re-organized (the bankruptcy trusteeship was lifted without a reorganization), I'm not sure what happened to its share of BRC.
wanswheel Railway Age Gazette, October 2, 1914 Reconstruction of Big Hump Yard by Belt Railway to Relieve Downtown Terminals of Transfer Freight The operation of a large yard in the vicinity of Chicago to handle, all or a large part of the interchange of through carload freight in order to decrease the switching within the city and reduce the congestion in the downtown district has been more or less seriously considered since 1889 when the Chicago Transfer & Clearing Company was organized to build such a yard at Clearing, about 10 miles southwest of the center of the city. The yard built by that company and rebuilt in 1898 by the Chicago Union Transfer Company has remained practically unused, but early in 1912 an agreement was reached by 12 railways entering the city, under which they became joint owners of the Belt Railway with the understanding that the Chicago & Western Indiana would buy the old yard, rebuild and enlarge it, and lease its Belt divisions, including the yard, to the Belt Railway as formerly. This reconstruction work has now been practically completed, and it is expected that the yard will be put in operation in the near future. THE PROBLEM AND THE PROPOSED SOLUTION Since more freight is interchanged between roads at Chicago than at any other point in the country, the need for a comprehensive plan of handling such transfers promptly and economically is felt most keenly there. This heavy interchange of business is caused by the fact that 24 trunk line railways enter the city, practically all of which terminate there. In addition there are 14 terminal, switching and industrial roads in and around the city, originating and delivering large amounts of freight which is received from or transferred to the trunk lines. The total freight car movement into the city excluding empties, is approximately 260,000 cars per month and about the same number of loaded cars are taken out of the city. On the assumption that the number of empty cars bears the same relation to the number of loaded ones as the average for roads in this district, the total car movement is approximately 390,000 in and the same number out. Practically half of the loaded cars are for Chicago delivery, and half for points beyond, so that applying this ratio to the total car movement, about 195,000 cars must be transferred from one road to another at Chicago every month, or 6,500 cars every day. At present about 30 per cent of these cars are handled by belt lines and the remaining 70 per cent, or about 4,500 cars a day, are hauled into the congested district of the city to be delivered by direct switching to the connecting roads. The clearing yard in its reconstructed form is adapted by location and design to become a central "clearing house" for all railways entering the city and will thus solve this most difficult interchange problem, if satisfactory operating agreements can be made to enable its advantages to be realized to the fullest extent. It is owned by the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, the Chesapeake & Ohio, the Chicago & Eastern Illinois, the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy, the Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific, the Chicago, Indianapolis & Louisville, the Erie, the Grand Trunk, the Illinois Central, the Minneapolis, St. Paul & Sault Ste. Marie, the Pennsylvania and the Wabash. The line of the Belt Railway makes direct connections with every trunk line entering the city and extensive improvements now under way will give it ample capacity to handle the interchange business of the other roads as well as the owning companies. The fact that some roads not interested in the control of the Belt have been giving it large amounts of transfer freight indicates that even more will be received from such roads after the new yard is put in operation. The yard lies between the Belt and the Indiana Harbor Belt, making it possible for the roads interested in the latter line to send their transfer business to Clearing by that route if they prefer. This line is owned by the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern, the Michigan Central, the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, and the Chicago & North Western, so that with the exception of the Baltimore & Ohio, the Chicago & Alton, the Chicago Great Western, and the Pere Marquette, every trunk line entering the city is interested either through ownership or affiliation in one or the other of the belt lines and three of these exceptions, the Baltimore & Ohio, the Chicago & Alton, and the Pere Marquette, have direct connections of their own to the new yard.
Railway Age Gazette, October 2, 1914
Reconstruction of Big Hump Yard by Belt Railway to Relieve Downtown Terminals of Transfer Freight
The operation of a large yard in the vicinity of Chicago to handle, all or a large part of the interchange of through carload freight in order to decrease the switching within the city and reduce the congestion in the downtown district has been more or less seriously considered since 1889 when the Chicago Transfer & Clearing Company was organized to build such a yard at Clearing, about 10 miles southwest of the center of the city. The yard built by that company and rebuilt in 1898 by the Chicago Union Transfer Company has remained practically unused, but early in 1912 an agreement was reached by 12 railways entering the city, under which they became joint owners of the Belt Railway with the understanding that the Chicago & Western Indiana would buy the old yard, rebuild and enlarge it, and lease its Belt divisions, including the yard, to the Belt Railway as formerly. This reconstruction work has now been practically completed, and it is expected that the yard will be put in operation in the near future.
THE PROBLEM AND THE PROPOSED SOLUTION
Since more freight is interchanged between roads at Chicago than at any other point in the country, the need for a comprehensive plan of handling such transfers promptly and economically is felt most keenly there. This heavy interchange of business is caused by the fact that 24 trunk line railways enter the city, practically all of which terminate there. In addition there are 14 terminal, switching and industrial roads in and around the city, originating and delivering large amounts of freight which is received from or transferred to the trunk lines. The total freight car movement into the city excluding empties, is approximately 260,000 cars per month and about the same number of loaded cars are taken out of the city. On the assumption that the number of empty cars bears the same relation to the number of loaded ones as the average for roads in this district, the total car movement is approximately 390,000 in and the same number out. Practically half of the loaded cars are for Chicago delivery, and half for points beyond, so that applying this ratio to the total car movement, about 195,000 cars must be transferred from one road to another at Chicago every month, or 6,500 cars every day. At present about 30 per cent of these cars are handled by belt lines and the remaining 70 per cent, or about 4,500 cars a day, are hauled into the congested district of the city to be delivered by direct switching to the connecting roads.
The clearing yard in its reconstructed form is adapted by location and design to become a central "clearing house" for all railways entering the city and will thus solve this most difficult interchange problem, if satisfactory operating agreements can be made to enable its advantages to be realized to the fullest extent. It is owned by the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, the Chesapeake & Ohio, the Chicago & Eastern Illinois, the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy, the Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific, the Chicago, Indianapolis & Louisville, the Erie, the Grand Trunk, the Illinois Central, the Minneapolis, St. Paul & Sault Ste. Marie, the Pennsylvania and the Wabash. The line of the Belt Railway makes direct connections with every trunk line entering the city and extensive improvements now under way will give it ample capacity to handle the interchange business of the other roads as well as the owning companies. The fact that some roads not interested in the control of the Belt have been giving it large amounts of transfer freight indicates that even more will be received from such roads after the new yard is put in operation.
The yard lies between the Belt and the Indiana Harbor Belt, making it possible for the roads interested in the latter line to send their transfer business to Clearing by that route if they prefer. This line is owned by the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern, the Michigan Central, the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, and the Chicago & North Western, so that with the exception of the Baltimore & Ohio, the Chicago & Alton, the Chicago Great Western, and the Pere Marquette, every trunk line entering the city is interested either through ownership or affiliation in one or the other of the belt lines and three of these exceptions, the Baltimore & Ohio, the Chicago & Alton, and the Pere Marquette, have direct connections of their own to the new yard.
This was included with the article two questions back.
Name the route of an interurbqn line located in North Amerrica with the following characteristics.
Freight service always was and still is (diesel) provided by one of the six or seven major NA frieght railroads over the entire line and main line track of the interruban line.
Most was provided by fairly modern steel cars. But some wooden trailers existed, including open platform woood coaches from steam days, and some wood motor cars as well.
Downtown terminal had a turntable to rotate single-end motor cars. Suburban termianl had a loop.
Operaton separate from the city streetcar system although at one time there was a corporate connection. No track shared with the streetcars, just shared with freight and at one time steam passenger railroad trains.
Local streetcar system converted to busses long before the interurban line.
Religious pilgrims brought out all the old equipment for use on religious holidays.
Beautful view of a dramatic waterfall.
daveklepper Name the route of an interurbqn line located in North Amerrica with the following characteristics. Freight service always was and still is (diesel) provided by one of the six or seven major NA frieght railroads over the entire line and main line track of the interruban line. Most was provided by fairly modern steel cars. But some wooden trailers existed, including open platform woood coaches from steam days, and some wood motor cars as well. Downtown terminal had a turntable to rotate single-end motor cars. Suburban termianl had a loop. Operaton separate from the city streetcar system although at one time there was a corporate connection. No track shared with the streetcars, just shared with freight and at one time steam passenger railroad trains. Local streetcar system converted to busses long before the interurban line. Religious pilgrims brought out all the old equipment for use on religious holidays. Beautful view of a dramatic waterfall.
Rgds IGN
Quebec Railway Light and Power. CN operated freight over it (and later (1954?) bought it) to reach the isolated Murray Sound Sub.
ccdrye, you are correct and should ask the next question.
But at the same tiime, name the waterfall, the suburban end terminal with the loop (and a good French-style cafe in the middle of the loop) and the name of the edifice that pilgrims reached via the line.
Can't do the suburban loop (Boischatel?), but Montmorency Falls and St. Anne de Beaupre shrine should do the others.
On the shared bridge theme this interurban line shared a covered bridge with a gauntlet track with a steam powered branch.
Please don't confuse the two threads. You are expected to ask a new question on this one. The end of the line for the interurban from Quebec was Saint Joachim, byond St. Ann de Beu Pre, which was about three-fifths of the length of the line to Saint Joachim.
My apologies for mixing threads.. On this thread which Interurban started with underrunning third rail, changed to overrunning third rail and overhead wire, and ended up with all overrunning third rail?
rcdrye My apologies for mixing threads.. On this thread which Interurban started with underrunning third rail, changed to overrunning third rail and overhead wire, and ended up with all overrunning third rail?
Was it the Chicago (Howard Street) - Skokie (Dempster Street) portion of the old Chicago North Shore's Skokie Valley Route, in modern times operated by the CTA and called the "Skokie Swift," which went from mixed overheard/third rail to all third rail about five years ago??
Cat. towers still exist on the western (Skokie) half of the route but no more overhead in Skokie -- no more "pan up/down" motion to switch modes on the fly, alas -- it is all third rail.
That would be less than 50 years ago (!). This one is further east, and still running.
rcdrye That would be less than 50 years ago (!). This one is further east, and still running.
You are so right!
The CTA and its predicessor, Chicago Rapid Transit, and the "Roaren Elgin" and the North Shore all used trolley wire at one point or another at one time or another, and also used overruning third rail, but never ever ever used underruning third rail anywhere. The CTA is the last NA user of unprotected third rail with gravety shoes instead of spring shoes.
The only USA interruban that still runs is the Chicago South Shore and South Bend. All others have been abandoned. So if you are talking about an interurban that still runs, it is the only one.
Of course that is passenger service. Freight service would include the Mason City and Clear Lake which is now the Iowa Terminal, still trolley wire trolley pole electric, an ex-North Shore passenger motor-car for charter.
When you say still runs, are you referring to diesel freigiht trains? Lilke Charles City Western and the revived Piedmont and Northern? Possibly Central California Traction? But this isn't east.
If the South Shore ever used third rail anywhere, it is news to me, but I am willing to learn. As far as I know it was originally an AC electrification, but switched to 1500V DC under Insull mamnagement to be compatible with the IC and so run through to downtown Chicago under electric power.
For most of its history, the Laural Line, the Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley, used overruning third rail, except for overhead wire on the South Scranton freight branch, the on-grade entrance to its Wilksbarre terminal, and the Nay Aug Park (Scranton) branch. Possibly wire operation was given up when it became freight only, with wire gone on South Scranton and diesel used there, still use of third rail locomotives on the main, Nay Aug Park long abandoned before main line passenger service, and no need for the trolleywire tracks in Willksbarre. But I was not aware that the L&WV ever used underrunign thhird rail. And although the line was completely abandoned, including freight service, part of it has been resurrected with trolley wire as a museum operation with regular sechedules passenger service with overhead wire, leaving from adjacent to Steamtown. The roadbed is largelty intace, and the whole linemay be resurrected some day.
This company switched from underrunning to overrunning when it added a branch which later became its main line. The original main line was later abandoned. The overhead wire was on a short stretch of street running which also served as a connection to another carrier.
Like the CA&E, it had a Thomas Conway connection. It also had a North Shore connection, but not until less than 50 years ago. It even had a CTA connection in the 90's.
An interurban line that still runs and still had a connection with the CTA in the 1990's? Ain't no such animal. The South Shore is the only, only interruban line in North America that was still an interuban line and not just a freight railroad in the 1990's.
The ONLY interurban lines that connected to the CTA were the CA&E and the CNS&M.
Define the railroad you are talking about. It is not an interurban and coujld never have really been one.
Or it did not connect with the CTA --- or the CRT for that matter.
Those hints make it much too easy. The line in question is Philadelphia & Western, currently SEPTA's Norristown (Route 100) line. Conway caused the Brill Bullets to be built, the Electroliners went into service on that line in 1964 and seven pairs of CTA 6000 series cars were sold for service on that line in the 1990's to cover an equipment shortage pending delivery of the current equipment. For more info see this link: http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/SEPTA_Rt._100:_Norristown_Line
By the way, South Shore is NOT an interurban and hasn't been one since the late 1950's. By that time, freight service was being handled by Little Joes and ex-NYC R2's with the steeple cabs scrapped or in work train service and the majority the passenger car fleet had been lengthened to 77' and some of them equipped with A/C and picture windows.
Several of my Ridewithmehenry group will be riding the Norristown HIgh Speed line plus the Media and Sharon HIll "trolley" lines Sat. 6/30. Rode the Norristown line Bullet cars years ago. This trip is in memorium to Wade Rendle who past away just a few months ago. He was one of my oldest and closest railfan friends...was responsible for the Ridewithmehenry trips. He always wanted to do a trip on these lines but we never got around to it. At his funeral his son asked if I could arrange such a trip in his honor. We plan on leaving on SEPTA from Doylestown station at 10:25AM to Market E., to Norristown Transit, to the HIgh Speed Line, then the trolleys, then the El to 30th St. and SEPTA rail back to Doylestown. Have watched several You Tube videos of the two trolley lines from the 80s and more recent and am very much looking forward to 6/30 as there is a lot to be seen there yet today.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
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