One more hint. The initial segment was opened in 1912.
I don't know if the lack of a reply is due to lack of interest or inability. Anyway, the answer is Boston's existing Red Line, which is the exCambridge-Dorchester "Tunnel" as heavy rapid transit subways were called in Boston, the three being the Cambridge-Dorchester Tunnel, the East Boston Tunnel (with small cars, smaller than IRT and Chicago) and the Washington Street Tunnel of the Main Line Elevated. The word Subway was for many years used only what is now the Green Line, the light rail network's underground portion. The line from Harvard Square, Cambridge to "Park Street Under" was opened in 1912 and immediately used what were probably the heaviest rapid transit cars ever used in North America, 71-feet long and 10 feet wide with three large sliding doors on each side. This is still the configuration of the much lighter cars used today. The line was soon extended to South Station and then to Fields Corner and Ashmont, with part of that extension over a converted New Haven Railroad suburban branch. From Ashmont to Mattapan, the high speed trolley served as the extension and still runs today with 1945-era PCC cars modernized with air-conditioning. Post-WWII extensions saw a branch to Qincy and Braintree on the south end, and extension from Harvard to Allwief on the northwest end. Education institutions are identified by station names, Harvard Square, Kendall-MIT, and UofMass-Kennedy.
A new question: What was the last New Haven Railroad steam operation. I'll accept either of two answers, one the actual end of steam operation anywhere, not covered in any newspaper, and second the last that any of the general public knew about with newspaper coverage.
My guess would be the operation of Mikado 3016in July of 1958 for the filming of the Columbia Pictures movie, It Happened to Jane staring Doris Day and Jack Lemmon.
I wouldn't know this if I hadn't seen the movie recently.
Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
If that movie was screened in 1958, and the 2-8-2 was labeled New Haven or NYNH&H, it was not an authentic New Haven locomotive. But I suppose if the film was filmed on New Haven RofW and the locomotive was operated by a New Haven crew, then you are correct and should ask the next question. But my understanding is that all Nwew Haven 2-8-2's, indeed all New Haven road steam power, had been scrapped several years earlier.
I am unfamiliar with the film. Can you check on t his?
Regarding the heavy Cmbrige - Dorchester "Tunnel" cars: I should have written the heaviest non-articualted double-truck rapid transit cars/ Obvoiusly at least some of the various 3 - 6 truck 2 - 5 body articulated cars are even heavier overall, even though of light=weigiht consruction.
In response to your question, I pulled my copy of New Haven Power, 1838-1968, by J. W. Swanberg. On pages 266 and 267 he discusses the film and their use of NYNH&H 3016 (Lettered "Eastern & Portland 97") and the filming at various points on the New Haven, primarily Chester, CT, but also in and around Colchester, Plainfield, Hartford, and New Haven.
The locomotive was operated by New Haven crews. The filming was completed on July 15, 1958,and the fire was dropped on the 3016 at Cedar Hill early on the morning of July 16th.
There were a few scenes that also featured FL-9s, also lettered "Eastern & Portland" but retaining their numbers.
While not a regularly scheduled operation, it was a revenue run, as I'm certain Columbia Pictures paid handsomely for the use of the equipment, crews, and right of way.
Bob, your mention of Eastern & Portland triggered my recollection of having seen that movie. If I have the right one in mind it starred Doris Day and her efforts get a shipment of lobsters from a small town in Maine to market in Boston. Her efforts to run a special train headed by a retired display steamer run by retired railroaders were thwarted at every turn by the scrooge like president of the ficticious E&P. He ordered that her special train be given a very circuitous routing that would take so long it would doom her mission to failure. In the end he sucumbed to public pressure, gave the special a direct route with priority over scheduled E&P trains and also the coal and water needed to complete its run. In the end it turned out that he did have a heart and to atone for his earlier obstructionism donated a new fire engine to the small Maine town which appeared in a parade in the closing scenes. The whole movie was railroading themed and contained lots of footage of the old steam engine in operation.
Mark
Yep, that's the movie. Also starred Ernie Kovacs as the black-hearted railroad president who turns out to be not -so-blackhearted after all (he donates a new fire truck to the village at the end of the movie.)
Yes, Doris Day played the owner of a supplier of live lobsters to restaurants, etc. and was having recurring problems with the lobsters dying in transit due to slower service by the railroad.
Railroad-themed movie, originally titled Mrs. Casey Jones but re-titled prior to release. I saw it in the theater as a child and loved it.
Still a good flick and available on DVD - that's how I saw it a few weeks ago.
The Doris Day / spoiled lobster / Ernie Kovacs movie is called IT HAPPENED TO JANE. In her (as-told-to) autobiography, Miss Day decried the film's "inspid" title as one reason it didn't get the box-office popularity she thought it deserved.
I did not know that the locomotive was a genuine New Haven 2-8-2. YOu can check the book, but my understanding was that all New Haven road steam locomotives were scrapped around 1954, and that the last revenue use of any was a fan special in November 1952 that ran from Boston to Ceder Hill Yard near New Haven via Willimantic and returned via the Shore LIne. And that the actual last use of steam by the New Haven was at the Van Ness Electric overhaul shop (East Bronx) where two 0-6-0T switchers ran until some time in 1957. Possibly what I had been told was true of just passenger operations, and I misinterpreted this to mean all road steam operations. So you are the winner, and perhaps can fill me in on the last road freight operation, possibly using the same 2-8-2.
As well as asking the next question.
The passenger special used an I-4 Pacific.
I can only cite Swanberg's New Haven Power. He says that the 3016 was used on "one more steam fan trip on July 19, 1953, over a year after the official 'last steam runs' with I-4's 1372 and 1388 in April, 1952."
The 3006, 3016, and 3020 were retained as snow-melters and served in this capacity until they were set aside in July of 1956. In this sporatic service they outlasted the two Van Nest Shop 0-6-0T's.
The three snow-melters were still on hand in the spring of 1958 when Columbia Pictures came asking the New Haven to use its trains and line (including a steam locomotive) for the forthcoming movie.
The 3016 was selected and sent to Cedar Hill roundhouse for inspection and repairs to make it at least temporarily operational and was used in the film.
The 3016 and her two snow-blowing mates went to Luria Brothers in the fall of 1958 and were scrapped shortly thereater.
Again, all my information comes from Swanberg's book as I have almost no other info on New Haven steam power and am about 1000 miles removed from any first-hand information. If I hadn't seen the movie recently, I doubt if I would have had an answer.
If this information is acceptable, I'll ask the next question, if not, that's okay, too. This is simply a trivia game - nothing to get excited about.
Peace.
The information is most acceptable. There was a fantrip in April 1952, but there was another in November, and the papers stated that was the last steam operation of the New Haven. Locomotives retained as snow melers don't count, because they are not revunue runs, but certainly the Portland and Eastern use was a revenue run, so you are the winner for sure.
In addition to yours truly, Stan Barriger the III was also on that November trip. Unless my memory is more confused than usual and after 55 years I am confusing the date. One way to check would be when the PRR Budd equipment was inaugurated on the Senator. I could not miss an important class at MIT that Saturday morning, so missed the best part of the trip, the southwest run via Wiilimantic, and used the Senator, with its new Budd equipment, to New Haven to at least enjoy the return trip, which I did. If I remember correctly, the Budd equipment was inaugurated with the summer timetable and was not available in April.
For the next question, we'll travel back in time about 50 years and 1000-1500 miles geographically.
Most of us have heard the folk ballad, "The Wreck of Old Ninety-Seven."
Theee-part question:
What was the route taken by mail train 97? (End points and carriers involved, please.)
In what year was the train taken off?
Why?
This shouldn't be too difficult for this group of knowledgeable rail enthusiasts.
I would guess Washington - Atlanta via the Southern Main Line. I first rode the Southern in 1942, age ten, but had already heard and was taught to sing the song at the summer camp that I began attending in 1938, age six. I think I asked about the train 97 and told there was not one under that name operating at the time. If there was one, the conductor probably thought I was referring to passenger-carrying trains only, but I think he meant the general catagory. Possibly it was taken off during the beginning of the Depression, say 1931? I still know the entire song by heart.
The engine number was something like 1022 or 1012, and 97 was the number of the train, so the published liyrics really need altering: "Engine 1022 was a fast locomotive, fastest on the Southern Lines...."
You got part of the answer to the first part of the question. The train did not terminate in Atlanta.
It was gone long before the Great Depression.
The locomotive was Ten-Wheeler No. 1102 and was scrapped in 1935, although this was not part of the question.
Some years ago I was at a railroad memorabilia show where one of the exhibitors had on display what was reported to be the air-brake stand from the 1102. If this could be verified that item would be a major exhibit at a railroad museum.
Possibliy the train was discontiniued when mail started to be carried regularly by the crack passenger trains, such the the Crescent and the Piedmont Limited.which matched the speed 97 or improved on it. If 97 ran beyond Atlanta and remained a Southern Train, then Birmingham, AL would be a logical destination, or New Orleans, or possibly Memphis, but the latter two destinations may involve railroads that were allied to othe Southern but not yet part of that railroad. So my best guess is Birmingham.
The several sources I've looked to for info on the 97 are in conflict on two points. One says it was a four car train and another says five cars. All agree it was a mail train carrying only the train crew and mail clerks, no passengers. As to destination one source lists Atlanta, another New Orleans and a third South Carolina. Since Atlanta has been ruled out and Dave has already mentioned New Orleans, I'll go with the South Carolina destination and say Charleston. If not Charlestojn then Columbia.
The crack passenger trains were already carrying the mail when 97 was inaugurated. It was an attempt to expedite the mail by eliminating virtually all but service stops.
No, the terminal point was not Birmingham, and it did not remain a Southern Railway train beyond Atlanta (though it did retain its number.)
Mark -
Dave mentioned New Orleans and Memphis, but guessed Birmingham. No, the final destination was not South Carolina.
The consist of 97 changed at Atlanta, so both of your sources could be correct. In fact, at one time the train carried six cars out of Atlanta, according to contemporary newspaper accounts.
AWP290 No, the terminal point was not Birmingham, and it did not remain a Southern Railway train beyond Atlanta (though it did retain its number.) Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
As I understand it New Orleans has been ruled out as the train's destination. Based on this hint, the most logical destination would be Montgomery via the West Point route from Atlanta.
One other possibility is conceivable. The GS&F at one time had a train No.95 that ran from Atlanta to Florida. This suggests there may also have a been a train No.97 which could have run to Jacksonville.
I seem to recall that the SR's No.97 ran for only two years after the wreck at the Stillhouse trestle. If I'm right this would make 1905 the year it was discontinued. If Florida was indeed its destination its discontinuance was probably due to the ACL or SAL's ability to offer faster service over their more direct routes.
To clarify - New orleans has not been ruled out. It was mentioned, but the guess in that post was Birmingham, although both Memphis and New Orleans had been mentioned. The guess was Birmingham, though.
You're on the right track, Mark. The West Point Route did handle the train south (or west, if you prefer) of Atlanta. The consist changed there, as the West Point added a coach and, in 1906, a Pullman to the train.
Montgomery was in the route, but not the terminal. Since two people have mentioned it, and apparently thought it had been guessed and rejected (it wasn't) I'll give you New Orleans as the terminal point.
Okay - what was the rest of the route, when was the train discontinued, and why?
This is proving tougher than I imagined. I thought this crowd would knock this one out of the park.
Bob.
After leaving WRofA tracks No.97 would have continued on to NO over the L&N. 1905 is still my guess as its discontinuance. I don't have ready access to SR schedules that far back so I can only take a SWAG as to why it was discontinued. I'll guess that the SR introduced a new or speeded up passenger train which carried the mail between Washington and NO perhaps running via Chattanooga and thence to NO on the Queen and Crescent route.
You are correct as to the remainder of the route. L&N did carry the train from Montgomer, through Mobile, and on to New Orleans.
You are incorrect on the date and reason for the discontinuance. Remember, this was a mail train, used primarily for carrying the mail for the US Post Office Department (now US Postal Service.)
Faster schedules had nothing to do with the discontinuance, to my knowledge.
Bob Hanson
If it ran to New Orleans over the West Point Route to Montgomery and then the L&N to New Orleans, then my first answer, Atlanta, is correct, becaus from then on it was no longer a Soouthern train and can be considered a different train, particularly as the consist changed in Atlanta. I assumed that the train was discontinued because it became Southern's prqactice to carry all mail on regular passenger trains when possible and not run pure head-end trains. The other reason might have been the popularity of the song!
The train did not terminate in Atlanta, it merely changed carriers. Neither did the Crescent or the Piedmont Limited which followed the same route. The addition or subtraction of cars does not alter the identity of a train. The Crescent in later years, on the West Point Route, carried only a couple of express cars and a coach or two, but it still carried the name of the Pullman-diner-observation carrying train of the late '30's and '40's and the numbers it had carried since the late 1890's - No.s 37-38.
The Crescent, on the Southern, was a shadow of its former self by this time but it was still the Crescent.
No. 97 carried that number through to New Orleans.
The Southern had little, if any, input on the decision to discontinue the train. I imagine that they'd have preferred to continue to operate it but cannot say for certain.
AWP290 The Southern had little, if any, input on the decision to discontinue the train. I imagine that they'd have preferred to continue to operate it but cannot say for certain. Bob Hanson
I'll take another stab at this. Perhaps the Southern lost the mail contract to the Seaboard which had a competing line to Atlanta. IIRC In 1904 the Seaboard line to Birmingham was completed making still another route possible - RF&P to Richmond, SAL to Birmingham and L&N to New Orleans.
Actually I wouldn't be surprised if the Southern wasn't glad to get rid of No.97. I would think that the revenue from carrying 3-4 cars of mail in a special train was, at best, only marginally profitable. Couple that with the penalties the Postal Dept. imposed on the railroads for every minute the train was late at different points on its route. This often made for some pretty risky running and in fact the 97 derailed one other time in the same year it wrecked at the Stillhouse trestle.
Mark, I'm going to quit beating this dead horse and give you credit for the answer as you've answered a good portion of the question correctly.
The contract was not only with the Southern, but with the A&WP, WofA, and L&N. The contract was lost, but not to anyone, but because in 1907 Congress failed to renew the appropriation for the train's continued operation.
As to the profitability of the train, I do not know. It was an expedited service - a special train put on for the Post Office Department - with no intermediate stops except for those necessary for servicing the train. I would be absolutely astounded if the POD did not pay a substantial premium for this service. Did it cover costs? Who knows? I do know
The loss of revenue resulting from the discontinuance of the train was not significant enough to rate a mention in the annual reports of either the Southern or the A&WP.
So, mark - Take it away!
The last three words of the third paragraph and the fourth paragraph in the previous post should be one sentence. Don't know if they got separated through computer glitch or operator error, but they make more sense if read together as one sentence (as they should be.
Sorry for the confusion.
Go to it, Mark!
Here's a new question. As we all know, at one time there were a number of railroads whose names were that of a state followed by the word, Central. The largest of these were the New York Central and the Illinois Central.
The two shortest of the "Centrals" were named for the same state, their only distinction being that one was the Xxxx Central Railroad and the other Xxxx Central Railway. What were the names of these two shortlines?
Utah Central Railroad (current I think) Utah Central Railway (not current, I think)
Dave, good guess but these are not the roads I'm looking for. You're right about the Utah Central RR being a current road. With respect to the other road, I believe you are thinking of the Utah Idaho Central Ry which was an interurban running some 90+ miles between Ogden and Preston.
The two roads I'm thinking of were much shorter and were located in a state far east of Utah.
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