Sedgewick, indeed, is the one I wanted. Neperhan, "5," was a fairly long line, had about six or seven cars during rush hours, three or four off-peak, and one only during wee morning hours. But a major portion was side-of-road "open track," single with passing sidings.
Elm and Walnut, "9," was Yonkers' one-car single-track line.
Brooklyn's was the Holly Cross Cemetary Shuttle, off Nostrand Avenue.
Await your question.
Sedgwick Avenue in the Bronx. Nepperhan had some open track.
Nepperhan!
I took the second question literally for a minimum answer. I was not certain when the NYC-exclusive GCT-Montreal Pullman, via Messina instead of over the D&H, was dropped, and it may have been before the late 40s. You can check on this.
The Central did indeed have have the Wolverine, with NY - Chicago Pullmans via Canada and Detroit, crossing the boarder twice each way. And Chhicago - Toronto through on the CP east of Windsor. At one time, perhaps even in the late 40s, on car ran through to Montreal. I rode, at one time or another, all these crossings, although one or two may have been after the Central took over its own sleeper operations, and they were not strictly Pullmans anymore.
A very esoteric question: The New York City area, during WWII and for two years after, had three one-car streetcar lines operating entirely or mostly on single track, with all track in the street. Two were in New York City and one north of the city. Name one and you win. Only one car handled all runs on each of these lines.
NYC also operated Pullmans to Toronto and other Canadian points via Buffalo, so the entire "Water Level Route" from New York to Buffalo handled pullmans for both Canada and Mexico. PRR handled a Washington-Mexico City car in addition to the New York-Mexico City cars, so only the sections New York-North Philadelphia and Baltimore-Washington actually qualified.
I thought the gap made it a bit more intersting.
rcdryeThe interurban was the Ft. Dodge, Des Moines & Southern
rcdryeMore of the NYC than Dave mentioned, and PRR had a gap between the two sections that qualify.
Where else, aside from the Adirondack line when it went through, did NYC operate sleepers to Montreal? I would need access to an OG to confirm whether sleepers operated west from Toronto for interchange 'down' to St. Louis; it's far more obvious they would go east and down to Buffalo, although again I don't know whether they would be switched directly into the Southwestern's consist there as I don't remember where the cutoff to the Big Four is relative to other logical transfer points in Cleveland. Likewise any sleeper coming south to Utica might ride a different train west before being incorporated into any St. Louis train.
Far as I can tell, the only necessary "gap" necessary with the PRR service is that a through Pullman from Canada would have to be switched out of the Montrealer consist and put into the relevant part of the Penn-Texas New York section, and if that had to be done at Sunnyside I don't think 'through passengers' would be allowed to stay on the car during that time. That might be an argument for doing the 'swap' in Washington (or some other place depending on how the Washington section of the Penn-Texas was actually routed)
What you haven't identified is how much of each railroad fit the bill for carrying Pullmans to both Canada and Mexico. More of the NYC than Dave mentioned, and PRR had a gap between the two sections that qualify.
The interurban was the Ft. Dodge, Des Moines & Southern, whose core was the Newton and Northwestern, an Iowa coal road between nowhere and nowhere - actually Newton and Rockwell City. The FDDM&S used the N&NW main line from just south of Boone north to Hope, later upgrading it with the spectacular bridges the Ft. Dodge line was known for.
daveklepperthe Montreal Limited and Montrealler-Wasningtonian had both coaches and sleepers to and from Montreal.
Pullmans via Utica, over what is now the Adirondack Scenic when it went 'all the way'?
Surely there were Pullmans via the CASO to Toronto? Or the other way via Detroit?
I was personally hoping for something more esoteric, involving one of the Western railroads, that would provide actual Pullman service, not just coach trains (for example, did Pullmans ever run on the SD&AE?) Or perhaps some incarnation of the Gould lines at the height of their pre-'92 grandeur -- or a later arrangement involving the MP/C&EI that would actually connect to something Canadian as it would post '74.
It was my understanding that the Penn-Texas sleepers were actually handled via the MoPac south and west of St. Louis, as were the connections from the Southwestern arriving via their different route via Cleveland. There would be the obvious 'gaps' between Utica and Buffalo west to Cleveland (where the lines diverged) on the NYC; the Montrealer would likely exchange any sleeper from Canada with the Penn-Texas consist out of Penn Station, but could also, very thoretically, have done this via the Washington, DC section.
By 1960 the actual 'Mexico City' sleeper apparently ran only as far as San Antonio, where you would have to change to the one going via the Penn-Texas route. If I remember correctly there was at least one PRR-lettered sleeping car in full MoPac Eagle colors ... there has to be a photo collection somewhere of the various 'Pennsylvania' cars in other liveries, UP being a famous one.
I remember the ad for the Southwestern Limited sleepers to Mexico City and still marvel a bit that it was possible.
The first question I believe was the Illinois Terminal, and the second, the PRR and NYC. I believe both the Penn Texas and the Southwestern Limited carried Mexico City sleepers, and of course the Montreal Limited and Montrealler-Wasningtonian had both coaches and sleepers to and from Montreal. In the late '40s.
No one seems to have bitten on the interurban question so I'm going to replace it:
Until the late 1940s two different railroads had lines that carried through Pullmans to both Canada and Mexico. Name both of them, and the lines.
The earlier discussion on the "Golden Arrow" caused me to recall that the train named "Fleche d'Or" commenced on 13 September 1926, but the British train was not named "Golden Arrow" until 15 May 1929. So it seems likely that the naming of the British train influenced the naming of the Pennsylvania train later in the same year.
Peter
This midwestern electric railroad known for freight activity started out as a steam-powered railroad built to access coal fields.
Interesting since the ICC said a train named 'Nellie Bly' was involved in one of the Delair Bridge approach wrecks almost three weeks earlier.
I'd also be interested in hearing any other name for the train involved in the Bordentown wreck circa 1901 (the fatal and unexpected third of three sections!)
Historical Note
There was a train named indirectly for a person in 1892--the Nancy Hanks, which was actually named for a race horse which had been named for Abraham Lincoln's mother. In 1947, the Central of Georgia revived the name with the Nancy Hanks II, which made a day round trip from Savanna to Atlanta and back, arriving in Savannah at midnight. This train lasted until 5/1/71. It carried a diner-lounge to the end--with a dome car the last few months.
Johnny
rcdrye Lucius Beebe's 1961 book "Twentieth Century Limited" claims that the Commodore started some time after the Advanced 20th Century...
Lucius Beebe's 1961 book "Twentieth Century Limited" claims that the Commodore started some time after the Advanced 20th Century...
On page 145 in that book, Beebe includes the Railway Age article that describes the 20-hour trains that were introduced on 9/29/29, including the Advance 20th Century Limited and the Commodore Vanderbilt.
I mentioned this in another post some time ago, that Beebe's books, although full of atmosphere, sometimes plays loose with the facts.
If your local library has access to back copies of the Chicago Tribune or New York Times, you can look up articles and advertisements concerning the inaugruations of those trains.
Overmod And long before that, there was Nellie Bly.
And long before that, there was Nellie Bly.
According to Baer's list of PRR train names (available at www.prrths.com), Nellie Bly was applied to a New York-Atlantic City run on 4/25/26.
The train preceded the bathtub streamlining of Hudson 5344. Apparently 5344 was just part of the pool, and often worked a section of the "Century" or some other name train.
I'll post another question later today.
Overmod Raises the further question: was the streamlined Commodore Vanderbilt locomotive named for the train that was named for an individual?
Raises the further question: was the streamlined Commodore Vanderbilt locomotive named for the train that was named for an individual?
Was the Commodore Vanderbilt a preferred engine of the Commodore Vanderbilt?
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
ZephyrOverland Overmod Suspect you will find, with that date match, that their De Witt Clinton was named for the locomotive. Which, in turn, was named for a former governor of New York.
Overmod Suspect you will find, with that date match, that their De Witt Clinton was named for the locomotive.
Suspect you will find, with that date match, that their De Witt Clinton was named for the locomotive.
Which, in turn, was named for a former governor of New York.
To add more fuel to the fire, there was a Flagler Limited on the FEC in mid-1925.
Overmod ZephyrOverland If NYC's publicity machine did their due diligence, they would have found out that their De Witt Clinton was running back in 1926. Suspect you will find, with that date match, that their De Witt Clinton was named for the locomotive.
ZephyrOverland If NYC's publicity machine did their due diligence, they would have found out that their De Witt Clinton was running back in 1926.
Either way, the naming of the Commodore Vanderbilt signaled to the industry that naming passenger trains after individuals was appropriate. Shortly thereafter you start seeing more trains being named in that manner.
ZephyrOverlandIf NYC's publicity machine did their due diligence, they would have found out that their De Witt Clinton was running back in 1926.
rcdrye ZephyrOverland Countering with the same endpoint schedules of the Golden Arrow, what NYC train was inaugruated on the same day? The Advance 20th Century Limited, which operated an hour ahead of the Century's time, was NYC's entry. A little better performer financially than the Golden Arrow, it survived for a year or two after the Commodore Vanderbilt entered the fray in 1933. Extra fare, just like the Century. Beebe notes the main difference was that almost everyone on the Advanced 20th Century ate lunch on departure from both New York and Chicago, not quite as desirable with the Century's 2:45PM departure westbound. The Advanced allowed NYC to reduce the number of sections operated for the Century, something PRR didn't have to worry about as much with the Broadway.
ZephyrOverland Countering with the same endpoint schedules of the Golden Arrow, what NYC train was inaugruated on the same day?
The Advance 20th Century Limited, which operated an hour ahead of the Century's time, was NYC's entry. A little better performer financially than the Golden Arrow, it survived for a year or two after the Commodore Vanderbilt entered the fray in 1933. Extra fare, just like the Century. Beebe notes the main difference was that almost everyone on the Advanced 20th Century ate lunch on departure from both New York and Chicago, not quite as desirable with the Century's 2:45PM departure westbound. The Advanced allowed NYC to reduce the number of sections operated for the Century, something PRR didn't have to worry about as much with the Broadway.
It was not the Advance 20th Century Limited that matched the schedule of PRR's Golden Arrow.
BUT
Your response did contain the answer. It was the Commodore Vanderbilt. This train was inaugruated on the same day as the Advance 20th Century Limited and was touted as the first train to be named after an individual. If NYC's publicity machine did their due dillegence, they would have found out that their De Witt Clinton was running back in 1926.
But I digress...
Both the Golden Arrow and Commodore Vanderbilt left Chicago at 2:00 pm and arrived in New York at 11:00 am. Westbound, both left New York at 4:00 pm, arriving in Chicago at 11:00 am. Its interesting to note that the Century and Broadway were scheduled apart from each other: eastbound, the Advance 20th Century matched the schedule times of the Broadway while the latter westbound train had no NYC schedule counterpart - the Century left New York at 2:45 pm while the Broadway left at 3:00 pm.
With this new multiple 20-hour schedule approach, PRR fielded three trains each way (e.b. - Fast Mail, Broadway, Golden Arrow; w.b. - Pennsylvania Limited, Broadway, Golden Arrow), while NYC scheduled 5 trains eastbound (Fast Mail, Advance 20th Century, 20th Century, Commodore, Wolverine) and 4 trains westbound (Advance 20th Century, 20th Century, Commodore, Wolverine.) You are right, in that a possible motive for this approach was to reduce the number of multiple sections of the Century and Broadway, but ironically the day the first westbound Commodore left Grand Central, the Century operated in three sections.
Of course, with the stock market crash occuring a month later, and the regressing economy following, this setup did not remain for long. By April of 1930 PRR's Fast Mail became the New Yorker on a slower schedule, and its 20-hour slot was replaced with the Manhattan Limited. The Golden Arrow began withering and the westbound Commodore was rescheduled to leave an hour earlier. Also, the Broadway and Century were getting faster and faster schedules, undoing what was started in late September, 1929.
Rcdrye, go ahead with the next question.
OvermodDoesn't he know he's edited his own post to contain the answers?
We're still glad he's back...
Doesn't he know he's edited his own post to contain the answers?
ZephyrOverlandCountering with the same endpoint schedules of the Golden Arrow, what NYC train was inaugruated on the same day?
Latching on to the Golden Arrow, it may be one of PRR's not-as-well-known passenger train names, but at the time of its inaugural on September 29, 1929, its mission was a lofty one, reflecting a change in strategy for PRR on its New York-Chicago service.
Until that time, the 20-hour Broadway Limited (as well as NYC's 20th Century Limited) were the fastest NY-CHI trains offered and at the time were most popular. NYC even stated that from September 1928 to September 1929, it operated a total of 2153 20th Century trains carrying 240,000 passengers. This would average out to about 3 sections per day, each way.
The establishment of the Golden Arrow was part of a new PRR initiative of an expanded 20-hour New York-Chicago lineup. From Chicago, PRR offered the Fast Mail, Broadway Limited and Golden Arrow. On the same day, NYC countered with its own 20-hour Fast Mail (on the exact same schedule as PRR's version), a new Advance 20th Century Limited, 20th Century Limited and they even threw in the Wolverine, running on the Michigan Central.
As for the question:
Countering with the same endpoint schedules of the Golden Arrow, what NYC train was inaugruated on the same day?
ZephyrOverland That would be PRR's Golden Arrow, running between Chicago and New York (and other routes) from 1929 until it was permanently discontinued in 1947.
That would be PRR's Golden Arrow, running between Chicago and New York (and other routes) from 1929 until it was permanently discontinued in 1947.
Haha... I knew Overmod knows the answer and I really like the way he responded to this question! Thank you everyone for your participation!
The Golden Arrow is probably one of the most forgotten named trains of Pennsy!
ZephyrOverland, it's your turn!
Overmod Knowing how you love the S1... it's pretty clear what this is. There's a famous picture of the Big Engine with this train's sign on the front. You might have tied it in with the smoke-deflector discussions, as I recall this being one of the trains that was used for the PRR testing (with three K4s; can you give their numbers?) from 1939 to 1941 -- another question in itself, as apparently some of the test film has survived and would be highly interesting to see. I have Chris Baer's synopsis of the train history if someone wants it. He says it was the 'second train' right up until the General was inaugurated in 1937.
Knowing how you love the S1... it's pretty clear what this is. There's a famous picture of the Big Engine with this train's sign on the front.
You might have tied it in with the smoke-deflector discussions, as I recall this being one of the trains that was used for the PRR testing (with three K4s; can you give their numbers?) from 1939 to 1941 -- another question in itself, as apparently some of the test film has survived and would be highly interesting to see.
I have Chris Baer's synopsis of the train history if someone wants it. He says it was the 'second train' right up until the General was inaugurated in 1937.
Definitely Overmod, not only S1 led the train quite often before the train was removed from the time table, there are some photos showing S2 towing the Golden Arrow as well. But when I try to search for detail about this named train, it is not mentioned on many websites or in the book like 'Pennsy Streamliners' by Joe Welish.
IIRC, there are photos showing PRR #3768, #5038 and #3876(both had smoke deflector equipped) towed the Golden Arrow, not sure about the 3rd K4s with smoke deflector equipped; do you mean #1188?
The 12-car Golden Arrow led by PRR S1
I see the IT mavens are 'working' on this site this morning -- response times sometimes in the minutes, double-posting, weird parsing of code.
Yeah it's like someone poured a bottle of glue in the works.
Jones1945 Ok, I am back... The named train was inaugurated just one month before The Great Depression started. It was supposed to be the second flagship passenger train of the railroad who run it. It served on Northeast of the United State. This named train discontinued before 1933 but its name remained on the time table for a few months. The cars of it were attached to another two named train before its name and its number was was removed from the time table for the first time. It was restored a few years after the first time it was canceled, but its car still attached to another named train which run a much shorter distance than the 1929 version of it. The route of this train changed several times but was still serving on the same corridor from the mid-1930s to late-1940s. The destination of it in both directions restored to its original version of 1929 in the mid-1930s. It was run with at least two sections in the mid-1940s. (of course!) This named train exchanged its number with its section which became anther named train about one year before it was removed from time table forever in the late-1947. *The train shared its name with another famous train from the United Kingdom and France. Please tell us the name of this train, its destination in both directions the date before it was canceled permanently and the railroad who run it.
Ok, I am back...
The named train was inaugurated just one month before The Great Depression started.
It was supposed to be the second flagship passenger train of the railroad who run it.
It served on Northeast of the United State.
This named train discontinued before 1933 but its name remained on the time table for a few months. The cars of it were attached to another two named train before its name and its number was was removed from the time table for the first time.
It was restored a few years after the first time it was canceled, but its car still attached to another named train which run a much shorter distance than the 1929 version of it.
The route of this train changed several times but was still serving on the same corridor from the mid-1930s to late-1940s. The destination of it in both directions restored to its original version of 1929 in the mid-1930s.
It was run with at least two sections in the mid-1940s. (of course!)
This named train exchanged its number with its section which became anther named train about one year before it was removed from time table forever in the late-1947.
*The train shared its name with another famous train from the United Kingdom and France.
Please tell us the name of this train, its destination in both directions the date before it was canceled permanently and the railroad who run it.
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