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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 11, 2019 9:46 AM

I see the IT mavens are 'working' on this site this morning -- response times sometimes in the minutes, double-posting, weird parsing of code.

Must be getting ready for another special promotion with fancy dancing HTML.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 11, 2019 9:46 AM

Mr. Klepper -- while the Parisians loved 'Lucky Lindy' and his mount, that did not extend to naming a French express after him.

The answer is more simple than you think.  Your mind should fly straight to it, in fact.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, April 11, 2019 8:31 AM

The "2nd train" on the Pennsy, the 1st being the Pennyslvania Limited and then The Broadway, the Spirit of Saint Louis, St. Louis - New York.  When it ran in two sections, it also served Washington, DC, via the Baltimore Northern route, and it may have seved DC at other times, split at Harrisburg.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, April 10, 2019 5:43 AM

Knowing how you love the S1... it's pretty clear what this is.  There's a famous picture of the Big Engine with this train's sign on the front.

You might have tied it in with the smoke-deflector discussions, as I recall this being one of the trains that was used for the PRR testing (with three K4s; can you give their numbers?) from 1939 to 1941 -- another question in itself, as apparently some of the test film has survived and would be highly interesting to see.

I have Chris Baer's synopsis of the train history if someone wants it.  He says it was the 'second train' right up until the General was inaugurated in 1937.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Wednesday, April 10, 2019 2:43 AM

Ok, I am back... 

The named train was inaugurated just one month before The Great Depression started.

It was supposed to be the second flagship passenger train of the railroad who run it.

It served on Northeast of the United State.

This named train discontinued before 1933 but its name remained on the time table for a few months. The cars of it were attached to another two named train before its name and its number was was removed from the time table for the first time. 

It was restored a few years after the first time it was canceled, but its car still attached to another named train which run a much shorter distance than the 1929 version of it. 

The route of this train changed several times but was still serving on the same corridor from the mid-1930s to late-1940s. The destination of it in both directions restored to its original version of 1929 in the mid-1930s.

It was run with at least two sections in the mid-1940s. (of course!)

This named train exchanged its number with its section which became anther named train about one year before it was removed from time table forever in the late-1947.

*The train shared its name with another famous train from the United Kingdom and France.

Please tell us the name of this train, its destination in both directions the date before it was canceled permanently and the railroad who run it. YesCoffee

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Posted by Jones1945 on Tuesday, April 9, 2019 1:49 PM

Thank you very much!

I am feeling extremely unwell (again) but I think I can post my question by tomorrow since I still need to do some fact check first. Thank you for your consideration. (I can't reply to other posts as well, I am really not feeling alright...)

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Posted by narig01 on Monday, April 8, 2019 3:39 PM

Jones1945

The Reisszug (also spelt Reißzug or Reiszug)

 
narig01

Anyway to a question. A couple of years ago I tried a question and did not get any replies. 

I've rewritten and try again. This is reputed to be the oldest rail borne operation still in use today.

The Xxxxxxxx is a private cable railway providing goods access to the  Xxxxxxxxxxxxx Castle at Xxxxxxxx in Xxxxxxx. It is notable for its extreme age, as it is believed to date back to either 1495 or 1504.

The line was first documented in 1515 by Cardinal Xxxx who would later become Archbishop of Xxxxxxxx. These dates would make it the oldest cable railway still in existence, and possibly the oldest existing railway. It has been claimed as the oldest funicular railway, although in the absence of evidence that it ever used a counterweight, this is debatable.

The Xxxxxxxx still traces its original route through the castle's fortifications. It starts from the grounds of the Xxxxxxx Abbey, below the eastern walls of the castle. It then rises up at a gradient of 65% to the central courtyard of the fortress, on its way passing through five concentric defensive walls. At the point where the line passes through each wall is a gateway, each of which can be closed by a sturdy wooden door. The presence and obvious age of the gateways serves to confirm Cardinal Xxxx's description of the line.

The line may have originally sled-style runners, but wooden rails and wheels were soon adopted. Haulage was accomplished by a hemp rope. Until 1910 the line was operated by human or animal power. Over the years the line has been modified and rebuilt several times, most recently between 1988 and 1990. Today it uses steel rails and a steel cable. Traction is provided by an electric motor, and a closed circuit television system is used to monitor its operation.

Can anyone name this?

 

Thank you for the question.

My guess is The Reisszug (Reißzug or Reiszug) in Austria.

"...a private cable railway providing goods access to the Hohensalzburg Castle at Salzburg in Austria. It is notable for its extreme age, as it is believed to date back to either 1495 or 1504."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reisszug

 

 

Jones 1945 you were first in.  

The Reusszug is kind of the backdoor funicular into Hohensalzburg Castle. It looks like it is used for delivery of supplies and materials for the upkeep of the castle.  The castle is more of a Berg or Fortress then a palace. From the description it rarely is used for people.  Hohensalzburg is built on top of a rock and the approaches are quite step. Both entrances are now Funiculars. 

Anyway Jones1945 we await your question.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, April 8, 2019 2:28 AM

More on this (apologies in advance for the awful HTML!):

http://www.funimag.com/funimag10/RESZUG02.HTM

Sigourney, as Ripley: It's all yours, Jonesy...

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Posted by Jones1945 on Monday, April 8, 2019 1:27 AM

The Reisszug (also spelt Reißzug or Reiszug)

narig01

Anyway to a question. A couple of years ago I tried a question and did not get any replies. 

I've rewritten and try again. This is reputed to be the oldest rail borne operation still in use today.

The Xxxxxxxx is a private cable railway providing goods access to the  Xxxxxxxxxxxxx Castle at Xxxxxxxx in Xxxxxxx. It is notable for its extreme age, as it is believed to date back to either 1495 or 1504.

The line was first documented in 1515 by Cardinal Xxxx who would later become Archbishop of Xxxxxxxx. These dates would make it the oldest cable railway still in existence, and possibly the oldest existing railway. It has been claimed as the oldest funicular railway, although in the absence of evidence that it ever used a counterweight, this is debatable.

The Xxxxxxxx still traces its original route through the castle's fortifications. It starts from the grounds of the Xxxxxxx Abbey, below the eastern walls of the castle. It then rises up at a gradient of 65% to the central courtyard of the fortress, on its way passing through five concentric defensive walls. At the point where the line passes through each wall is a gateway, each of which can be closed by a sturdy wooden door. The presence and obvious age of the gateways serves to confirm Cardinal Xxxx's description of the line.

The line may have originally sled-style runners, but wooden rails and wheels were soon adopted. Haulage was accomplished by a hemp rope. Until 1910 the line was operated by human or animal power. Over the years the line has been modified and rebuilt several times, most recently between 1988 and 1990. Today it uses steel rails and a steel cable. Traction is provided by an electric motor, and a closed circuit television system is used to monitor its operation.

Can anyone name this?

Thank you for the question.

My guess is The Reisszug (Reißzug or Reiszug) in Austria.

"...a private cable railway providing goods access to the Hohensalzburg Castle at Salzburg in Austria. It is notable for its extreme age, as it is believed to date back to either 1495 or 1504."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reisszug

 

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Posted by narig01 on Sunday, April 7, 2019 11:45 PM

Anyway to a question. A couple of years ago I tried a question and did not get any replies. 

 

I've rewritten and try again. This is reputed to be the oldest rail borne operation still in use today.

 

 

 

The Xxxxxxxx is a private cable railway providing goods access to the  Xxxxxxxxxxxxx Castle at Xxxxxxxx in Xxxxxxx. It is notable for its extreme age, as it is believed to date back to either 1495 or 1504.

The line was first documented in 1515 by Cardinal Xxxx who would later become Archbishop of Xxxxxxxx. These dates would make it the oldest cable railway still in existence, and possibly the oldest existing railway. It has been claimed as the oldest funicular railway, although in the absence of evidence that it ever used a counterweight, this is debatable.

 

The Xxxxxxxx still traces its original route through the castle's fortifications. It starts from the grounds of the Xxxxxxx Abbey, below the eastern walls of the castle. It then rises up at a gradient of 65% to the central courtyard of the fortress, on its way passing through five concentric defensive walls. At the point where the line passes through each wall is a gateway, each of which can be closed by a sturdy wooden door. The presence and obvious age of the gateways serves to confirm Cardinal Xxxx's description of the line.

 

The line may have originally sled-style runners, but wooden rails and wheels were soon adopted. Haulage was accomplished by a hemp rope. Until 1910 the line was operated by human or animal power. Over the years the line has been modified and rebuilt several times, most recently between 1988 and 1990. Today it uses steel rails and a steel cable. Traction is provided by an electric motor, and a closed circuit television system is used to monitor its operation.

 

Can anyone name this?

 

 

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Posted by narig01 on Sunday, April 7, 2019 11:37 PM

I had my copy of Wm Middleton's Interurbans book dragged out. And did some looking on the internet. I had not seen how much trackage SC&P had. In addition when looking at AC installations I think you also have to consider the frequency. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, April 7, 2019 4:26 PM

narig01

I had thought SC&P used 600vdc. And had not thought about any A.C. interurbans in the west. 

     I do have a question in mind if overmod does not want the question. 

 

AC interurbans were rare anyway.  The only western ones I can think of were Visalia Electric (3300 volt 15 Hz (SP)) and the San Francisco Napa & Calistoga - later San Francisco & Napa Valley - at 3300 volts 25 Hz.  A remnant of the SF&NV, the Mare Island Freight Line, remained electrically operated until 1942.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, April 7, 2019 4:06 PM

If Nariq hadn't said "GN" I'd never have found SC&P, so it's his by right.  All I extracted were the details.

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Posted by narig01 on Sunday, April 7, 2019 1:23 PM

I had thought SC&P used 600vdc. And had not thought about any A.C. interurbans in the west. 

     I do have a question in mind if overmod does not want the question. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, April 7, 2019 12:47 PM

Originally the Spokane & Inland Empire, the SC&P was owned by the Hills after 1909, folded into the GN as SC&P in 1929.  SC&P motors carried sublettering with a large GN goat logo on their sides. 

The Lake Shore borrowed a couple of motors, not at the same time, in 1914 and 1915 (It's fairly easy to set up a 6600V AC motor to run on 3300V, just change some transformer taps). 

The S&IE operated its own lines as well as the 750 VAC Spokane Traction lines, which were later divested to Washingon Power Co and converted to DC.  Motors 603 and 604 were equipped with dual pantographs and could operate if necessary under GN's 11.5 KV AC wire, though it does not seem that that feature was used much, if at all.  Other S&IE/SC&P motors had a pantograph and a trolley pole.

SC&P Motors

Nariq01 got the owning railroad,  Overmod the name of the line.  If it's OK with you two I'd like to see something from Nariq01, since we haven't had the pleasure for a while.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, April 7, 2019 8:44 AM

I had never heard of the Spokane, Coeur d'Alene and Palouse before.  Suspect from what I have found out (which ain't much so far) that the engines in question are Baldwin 50-ton boxcabs 603 and 604 (indicated as having been rewired to 6600V in one of the GN rosters)

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, April 7, 2019 7:33 AM

narig01
Anyway a guess Great Northern?

GN's 1927 re-electrification was single phase 11.5K VAC.  Some of these engines were set up so they could operate there (long after the loan to CLS&SB...) - so you have part of the answer...

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Posted by narig01 on Friday, April 5, 2019 8:40 PM

rcdrye

Loaning railroad remained AC to the end of electric operation.  Several of the loaning RRs engines were set up to allow operation on the parent RR's higher voltage wire, though it's not clear whether they were ever used there.

 

I thought the South Shore AC electrification was a single phase, and Great Northern's first electrification was three phase. 

Anyway a guess Great Northern?

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, April 5, 2019 9:20 AM

Loaning railroad remained AC to the end of electric operation.  Several of the loaning RRs engines were set up to allow operation on the parent RR's higher voltage wire, though it's not clear whether they were ever used there.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 5, 2019 5:26 AM

Did the loaning railroad eventually convert to DC, and/or were the loomotives rebuilt for DC operation? 

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, April 4, 2019 7:57 AM

narig01
I do not know if this will help someone but was the other railroad the Rock Island Southern interurban?

Right voltage, wrong interurban.  RIS only ran passenger service under 6600 volt overhead, freight was steam.  Look a little further west.

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Posted by narig01 on Wednesday, April 3, 2019 11:58 PM

rcdrye

What you're looking for is a railroad with engines similar in size to CLS&SB's, but not necessarily with the same voltage.  Some of the loaning railroad's engines were later set up so they could be used on the parent railroad's electric segment.

 

I do not know if this will help someone but was the other railroad the Rock Island Southern interurban? 

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, April 3, 2019 2:31 PM

What you're looking for is a railroad with engines similar in size to CLS&SB's, but not necessarily with the same voltage.  Some of the loaning railroad's engines were later set up so they could be used on the parent railroad's electric segment.

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, March 30, 2019 1:26 PM

This isn't about the eventual move of CL&SB's own 3300v engines (which did end up on the St. Clair Tunnel Co.), but about CL&SB borrowing engines from another AC-motored railway during 1914 and 1915.  The company they were borrowed from did become a part of a larger system, and the borrowed engines eventually had the logo of that larger system painted on their sides.

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, March 30, 2019 12:48 PM

Grand Trunk not Canadian National

edit... I see you already addressed that , good good 

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, March 30, 2019 12:21 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH
CLS&B 505-506 went to the St. Clair Tunnel Co. as 175-176 when South Shore converted from 6600 volt AC to 1500 volt DC in 1926.

My reference said St. Clair was 3300V (at least the 1907 locomotives were) and that the two CLS&SB locomotives I mentioned were built (at Baldwin with Westinghouse electrical gear) in Sept. 1916, which is after the dates given (builder #s 43681 and -2).  They also reminded me that this was Grand Trunk, not Canadian Northern which was a completely 'nother electrification.

So there is more to this.  Not answered yet.  

Some history of the tunnel construction and operation is

https://industrialscenery.blogspot.com/2019/02/cngtw-st-clair-tunnels.html.

(Third fatal asphyxiation accident due to consist break-in-two before they electrified it???)

And details of the electrification

https://books.google.com/books?id=OXI5AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=st.clair+tunnel+company+locomotives&source=bl&ots=BPBzw2caMq&sig=ACfU3U1AWXKrNW5Hv1c0rmvrEYvub17l0w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwifr8mAs6rhAhWGiOAKHf1bAr84FBDoATAEegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=st.clair%20tunnel%20company%20locomotives&f=false

I see URL tags have stopped working again.  When Kalmbach gets the finger out, I'll edit to make the links less obvious.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Saturday, March 30, 2019 10:05 AM

CLS&B 505-506 went to the St. Clair Tunnel Co. as 175-176 when South Shore converted from 6600 volt AC to 1500 volt DC in 1926.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, March 30, 2019 7:43 AM

Is this related to locomotives 505 and 506, that wound up on Canadian National as 175-176?

Presumably from one of the Canadian Northern properties at the time, although I don't have any references as to which one.  This would be a fun topic for String Lining over on the regular forum.

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, March 30, 2019 7:02 AM

We'll stick with the South Shore - or at least its history.

The Chicago Lake Shore and South Bend began interchange freight service behind AC boxcab electric locomotives in 1907. To deal with traffic growth, the Lake Shore borrowed heavier electric locomotives during 1914 and 1915 while waiting to order its own additional AC boxcabs - which it never did.  The electrics served with their owner's lettering before returning west.  Before they were retired by their owner, they wore the symbol of a major railroad.  Name the locomotive's owner and the major railroad that later owned the system.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, March 29, 2019 7:11 AM

We have a winner.  When I was much younger, I can remember seeing the eastbound train a bit after 10:00 AM from my back yard with an express trailer attached.

rcdrye, it's your question.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul

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